Kucinich 08!!!

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  • Hehe....that's the contradiction abook.

    If your socialism includes me against my will, then no I do not sanction any right for you to do that. If you sanction that right for yourself, then you give permission to everyone who has ever expropriated your labor, your talents, your abilities, your dreams and your mind for their goals and aims.

    Your being a socialist does not give you a lease on my mind or body, just like my being a capitalist does not give me a lease on your mind or body.

    We all have to deal with the negative effects of capitalism. I see it as a huge problem, you don't. Once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • We all have to deal with the negative effects of capitalism. I see it as a huge problem, you don't.

    We'd all have to deal with the negative effects of socialism too, if we were all bound together by it. But you're ignoring the point. I don't wish to force you to play by capitalistic rules. You shouldn't have to, if you don't want to. But the "negative effects" of any social system just like the political wishes of a few don't give you a right to enslave anyone.
    Once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Hehe...ok, but you won't allow that. If we "agree to disagree", it implies that we go on our separate ways. People like Dennis Kucinich, when I disagree with him, will just pass a law that forces me to do what he wants. He's not "agreeing to disagree".
  • Hehe...ok, but you won't allow that. If we "agree to disagree", it implies that we go on our separate ways. People like Dennis Kucinich, when I disagree with him, will just pass a law that forces me to do what he wants. He's not "agreeing to disagree".

    Then support a candidate that won't pass laws or make you pay taxes, alright.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Then support a candidate that won't pass laws or make you pay taxes, alright.

    There isn't such a candidate, abook. And the very qualification you detail above would preclude the need for one. Why would I need a candidate when I have no desire to force you to do things for me?
  • There isn't such a candidate, abook. And the very qualification you detail above would preclude the need for one. Why would I need a candidate when I have no desire to force you to do things for me?

    Becuase I'd still be forced to live in your world where I think chaos would ensue.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Becuase I'd still be forced to live in your world where I think chaos would ensue.

    drilling for fear......You know, I don't often agree with Eddie Vedder on politics, but he was more right with that one than even he likely knows....

    I don't know what "chaos" you fear, abook. You can have everything you have now. You can have your governments. You and your friends can still boss each other around, for all I care. You just can't have me. You cannot own my mind. You cannot use my body. Not against my will. It's all I'm saying.
  • I prefer not to be an eternal pessimist and I choose to think positively. Even if things never go my way, I'm holding on to hope.

    I don't think I'm being a pessimist...just trying to explain a few things, from my perspective...and, well, at least, one fact (the majority comment).
    I'll dig a tunnel
    from my window to yours
  • We all have to deal with the negative effects of capitalism. I see it as a huge problem, you don't. Once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

    anything that can be administered will suffer the effects of the humans administering that thing. capitalism, in a vacuum, is good...just like socialism.
    I'll dig a tunnel
    from my window to yours
  • drilling for fear......You know, I don't often agree with Eddie Vedder on politics, but he was more right with that one than even he likely knows....

    I don't know what "chaos" you fear, abook. You can have everything you have now. You can have your governments. You and your friends can still boss each other around, for all I care. You just can't have me. You cannot own my mind. You cannot use my body. Not against my will. It's all I'm saying.

    I view everyone going for whatever suits them and not taking into account the rest of the world as dangerous. I see the negative effects of this policy all over the globe.

    You're drilling for fear, too my friend. You often repeat how you feel the govt is enslaving you. I highly doubt too many people you'd meet would say the same. You constantly tout the notion of if the govt doesn't give you absolute freedom to do as you wish, then it's slavery. I view it more as a give and take relationship.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • I view everyone going for whatever suits them and not taking into account the rest of the world as dangerous. I see the negative effects of this policy all over the globe.

    Hehe...then how does that fit into your plan of the entire world going for whatever suits you?
    You're drilling for fear, too my friend. You often repeat how you feel the govt is enslaving you. I highly doubt too many people you'd meet would say the same. You constantly tout the notion of if the govt doesn't give you absolute freedom to do as you wish, then it's slavery. I view it more as a give and take relationship.

    I'm not drilling for your fear. If you view government differently than I do, so be it. If you want to give your goods and services to the government, then it isn't slavery for you, just like it wouldn't have been slavery for an African who got on a boat, came to America, and voluteered his services at the first plantation he found.

    Fear of the government has little to do with my posts here. Why should those who can wield government like a sword, as most here desire to do, fear it? They already fear the swords of others, and that's why they picked up theirs to begin with. It's the logic of sword-wielding in the first place that I challenge people to think about.

    Regardless, I believe in "give and take" relationships too. There's a problem though: you have nothing I want, at least in the context of governments. So that leaves us with a bit of a conundrum.
  • Hehe...then how does that fit into your plan of the entire world going for whatever suits you?



    I'm not drilling for your fear. If you view government differently than I do, so be it. If you want to give your goods and services to the government, then it isn't slavery for you, just like it wouldn't have been slavery for an African who got on a boat, came to America, and voluteered his services at the first plantation he found.

    Fear of the government has little to do with my posts here. Why should those who can wield government like a sword, as most here desire to do, fear it? They already fear the swords of others, and that's why they picked up theirs to begin with. It's the logic of sword-wielding in the first place that I challenge people to think about.

    Regardless, I believe in "give and take" relationships too. There's a problem though: you have nothing I want, at least in the context of governments. So that leaves us with a bit of a conundrum.

    It's a compromise. You're not being forced to live within this society so you are not a slave. Society has decided that we need certain rules.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • It's a compromise. You're not being forced to live within this society so you are not a slave. Society has decided that we need certain rules.

    It's not a compromise when you just tell me what to do, abook. You haven't sacrificed anything. If Dennis Kucinich gets elected, and he institutes UHC or signs onto Kyoto, or forbids me from firing and hiring who I want to, where is the compromise? What has he given up?

    I'm being forced to live within this society in exactly the same way society is being forced to live with me. Cohabitation is a fact of life, anywhere. What I'm proposing recognizes the rights of both parties. What you're proposing recognizes only your own.
  • It's not a compromise when you just tell me what to do, abook. You haven't sacrificed anything. If Dennis Kucinich gets elected, and he institutes UHC or signs onto Kyoto, or forbids me from firing and hiring who I want to, where is the compromise? What has he given up?

    I'm being forced to live within this society in exactly the same way society is being forced to live with me. Cohabitation is a fact of life, anywhere. What I'm proposing recognizes the rights of both parties. What you're proposing recognizes only your own.

    Society doesn't feel forced to live with you. You're not a slave when you have the ability to leave a situation that you feel is wrong. Everyone is forced to live with the actions and will of another whether it be by laws or the lack there of.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Society doesn't feel forced to live with you.

    Hehe...good. Because I'm not forcing them to stay here, just like it's not forcing me to stay here.
    You're not a slave when you have the ability to leave a situation that you feel is wrong.

    Every slave had the ability to leave their situation. Suicide and escape was a choice for each. That, however, did not make them non-slaves. A slave is a person who is forced to work for purposes aside from his or her own, abook. Just because I have the option to go to Mexico does not absolve you of the consequences of your proposals. You also have the option to take your proposals to Mexico. Yet I have no right to link your existence on this land to an invented obligation in my mind.
    Everyone is forced to live with the actions and will of another whether it be by laws or the lack there of.

    Very much so, yes. We are all slaves, in a sense, to that which created us, Nature, and the environment she put us in. There is no escaping that fact, be you a capitalist or a socialist or something altogether different.
  • Hehe...good. Because I'm not forcing them to stay here, just like it's not forcing me to stay here.



    Every slave had the ability to leave their situation. Suicide and escape was a choice for each. That, however, did not make them non-slaves. A slave is a person who is forced to work for purposes aside from his or her own, abook. Just because I have the option to go to Mexico does not absolve you of the consequences of your proposals. You also have the option to take your proposals to Mexico. Yet I have no right to link your existence on this land to an invented obligation in my mind.

    If you had your way, you would choose to have society live without the options of making rules and regulations to protect itself as it saw fit. That is also force, especially if the majority thinks these laws are needed.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • If you had your way, you would choose to have society live without the options of making rules and regulations to protect itself as it saw fit. That is also force, especially if the majority thinks these laws are needed.

    No. Society can have whatever rules it likes. It simply cannot, however, assume that it can do whatever it would like with my mind or my body in the name of "order".

    Perhaps I can explain this better with an example. Let's say you have kids and I have kids. We're both parents. Now, just because I'm not going to force you to live by my parenting standards doesn't mean a) I have no standards of my own or b) you can't have rules of your own. Understand?

    If you and your "society" want to have rules, who am I to stop you? If those rules are socialistic and crazy, so be it.
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    If you and your "society" want to have rules, who am I to stop you? If those rules are socialistic and crazy, so be it.
    You still haven't said where you would go or who you would push out if you stayed where you are.
  • No. Society can have whatever rules it likes. It simply cannot, however, assume that it can do whatever it would like with my mind or my body in the name of "order".

    Perhaps I can explain this better with an example. Let's say you have kids and I have kids. We're both parents. Now, just because I'm not going to force you to live by my parenting standards doesn't mean a) I have no standards of my own or b) you can't have rules of your own. Understand?

    If you and your "society" want to have rules, who am I to stop you? If those rules are socialistic and crazy, so be it.

    Because you living inside our society would have to adhere to these rules we chose to protect us as a whole.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • RainDog wrote:
    You still haven't said where you would go or who you would push out if you stayed where you are.

    I'd stay right here. And why would I push someone out?
  • Because you living inside our society would have to adhere to these rules we chose to protect us as a whole.

    Hehe....I don't live "inside your society". I live on land. So do you.

    The borders of your society are the borders of the minds of those who willingly participate with you. You cannot translate the borders of a society to the borders on a map. That's the logic of a dictator.
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    I'd stay right here. And why would I push someone out?
    All them socialists are taking your money. How do you stop them?
  • Hehe....I don't live "inside your society". I live on land. So do you.

    The borders of your society are the borders of the minds of those who willingly participate with you. You cannot translate the borders of a society to the borders on a map. That's the logic of a dictator.


    Except we have laws to check power and vote it out.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • RainDog wrote:
    All them socialists are taking your money. How do you stop them?

    Depends on how much they're taking.
  • Except we have laws to check power and vote it out.

    Really? The last time a group of people tried to vote their way out of society you declared war on them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
  • Really? The last time a group of people tried to vote their way out of society you declared war on them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

    I don't support declaring war on you.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • I don't support declaring war on you.

    Then we're making progress, and I'm very happy to hear that. I don't support declaring war on you either.

    If you actually want to form a "society", and you actually want to talk about "cooperation" based on actual "common ground" in a desire to achieve "common good", then we've found a starting point, haven't we?
  • Then we're making progress, and I'm very happy to hear that. I don't support declaring war on you either.

    If you actually want to form a "society", and you actually want to talk about "cooperation" based on actual "common ground" in a desire to achieve "common good", then we've found a starting point, haven't we?

    Yes, I suppose we have.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/48535/

    Kucinich Comes Back for '08
    By Daniel Sturm
    In These Times

    Wednesday 28 February 2007

    To his supporters, Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) represents the sane voice of the Democratic Party - a man who reads books, gives intelligent speeches and acts on principle. To his detractors, Kucinich is a small man on an ego trip, too radical to be elected.

    Kucinich was the only Democratic candidate in the 2004 presidential primaries to vote against the war in Iraq. His 90-day plan to end the occupation was dismissed by the party's centrist leaders and he came in fourth in the primaries - behind Kerry, Edwards and Dean.

    Three years later, the Iraq war has cost the lives of more than 3,000 American servicemen and untold thousands of Iraqis. And once again Kucinich, relentless in his call for withdrawing troops, is vying for the nation's top job. "My country calls me to action," he told a cheering crowd after announcing his candidacy on December 12 in Cleveland.

    Kucinich first gained prominence in 1977 when, at age 31, he was elected mayor of Cleveland, becoming the youngest mayor ever elected in a major American city. During his campaign, Kucinich promised to save the struggling city-owned Municipal Light Co. When the company's private competitor tried to force the city to sell, Mayor Kucinich refused. In response, the banks cut off credit and the City of Cleveland went into default. In 1979, Kucinich lost his bid for re-election. Years later, the Cleveland City Council would honor him for "having the courage and foresight to refuse to sell the city's municipal electric system" - and saving ratepayers more than $100 million.

    During his 15-year hiatus from politics, he worked as a TV commentator, media consultant, college professor and public utility consultant. Kucinich re-launched his political career in 1993, with the campaign symbol of a light bulb and the slogan, "Because he was right!" He won a seat in the Ohio state Senate in 1994 and was elected to Congress two years later.

    Daniel Sturm recently spoke with Kucinich about his decision to run again for president and his position on the war.

    With his proposal to escalate the war through a troop "surge," President George W. Bush plans to dispatch 21,500 additional U.S. troops to Iraq. What effect would this have?

    More war, more door-to-door fighting, more civilian casualties, an expansion of the conflict, more deaths of troops, more costs to the people of the United States, more ruination for Iraq and more instability in the region and the world. And it sets the stage for a conflict against Iran.

    Daniel Ellsberg, of "Pentagon Papers" fame, told Democracy Now that he believes Bush plans to attack Iran, probably without informing Congress. Ellsberg says a similar escalation happened during the Vietnam War, when the battlefield was extended into Laos and Cambodia. Could this be possible?

    The analogy is correct. I think this president is looking to expand the war. His comments about Iran and Syria were not conciliatory. He's rattling the saber at a time when saber-rattling hurts our troops. It's the kind of tough talk that dragged us into this war, the same braggadocio that doesn't pass for statecraft, but shows an administration that's out of control. Here's a president who's putting his foot on the accelerator as the car heads toward the cliff.

    The "Kucinich Plan" proposes replacing U.S. troops with an international peacekeeping force. But after the United States ignored the world's opposition to its invasion of Iraq, is it practical to expect European and other nations to support America now?

    I'm talking about a totally different process. I'm talking about something that legitimates the international community, as opposed to the Bush Administration's plan that rejects the primacy of international cooperation. It is imperative that the United States take a different course - a course out of Iraq. How do you get the international community involved?

    It begins with the United States indicating its intention to take a new direction. That direction must articulate a desire to end the occupation; withdraw the troops; close the bases; assist in the creation of a new process for reconciliation, reconstruction and reparation in Iraq; and stop the privatization of Iraqi oil. I think that if the United States would take that position, you'd find receptivity in the international community.

    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi opposes sending additional troops to Iraq, but she has also said that cutting off funding for troops already there isn't an option. How does your position differ from hers?

    I have a great deal of respect for Nancy Pelosi. I think we have to give Democrats a few weeks to absorb the full impact of the president's intentions, and to realize that it is absolutely critical to stop this administration from continuing the war. The only way to do that is for Congress to assume its power under the constitution: the power of the purse.

    I am going to be presenting members of Congress and the American people with this proposition: If the cost of bringing the troops and the equipment home is in the area of $5 to $7 billion, according to the Congressional Budget Office, and if we have money in the pipeline right now, why not bring the troops home with that money?

    If Congress votes to appropriate another $160 billion for Iraq in the spring, we'll essentially have given George W. Bush the money he needs to carry the war through the end of his term. That would bring the total war cost, in 2007, to $230 billion. George Bush has been unequivocal about Iraq, and anyone who's missed this hasn't been paying attention. He has no intention of getting out of Iraq. He intends to keep our troops there until the end of his term. And that's a death-sentence for a lot of Americans stationed over there.

    The anti-war movement hasn't evolved much since the start of the war. Why not?

    A couple of things are going on. The Bush administration has been very successful in sending out conflicting messages. If you pay attention to what the administration says, it can be very tough to organize. But if you pay attention to what they do, it's pretty easy to organize. Because what they do is to continue to prosecute war. I think that the kind of surge we saw in public involvement in the late winter and early spring of 2003 will happen again, as the surge in troops and this escalation occurs.

    The Toledo Blade has called you a "diminutive Cleveland congressman" with a "giant-sized ego." How do you respond?

    I'm not going to dignify this with a comment. There's a war going on. People are losing their lives. And what is the Toledo Blade doing? I would ask the Toledo Blade to join me in challenging this unjust war, and to tell the people of Toledo that the war was based on lies. I would ask them to call for the troops to come home. Everything I said four years ago has become mainstream. I'm not speaking from the margins.

    Besides the war, what other issues will be central to your campaign?

    My campaign isn't just about the war. I'm challenging the very idea of war as an instrument of policy. I'm saying that policies of preemption, first-strike and unilateralism are bankrupt.

    It begins with an understanding that war is destructive, not only to human life, and the hopes of people, but also to budgets. My experience has told me that the United States has to return to the American city. I'm someone whose career has been heavily involved in local government. I know exactly the kind of concerns that communities have. Cities need revenue sharing again. Cities need job programs and summer job programs for young people.

    We need to come up with new energy policies to enable the creation of alternative energy. More money for mass transit. It's almost like domestic policy in America is like the dark side of the moon! Nobody's even seen it, at least not since this administration took office.

    What tactical mistakes did you make in 2004?

    I think that in 2004 the American people weren't ready for the message I had-not just about Iraq, but about the imperative of taking a new approach in the world, and also focusing back on taking care of things here at home.

    If we look at our capacity for transformation as a nation, we move from an American revolution to an American evolution. And the evolutionary potential of this country is not being tapped. We're devolving. We're going back to a time to when we were struggling for survival, when we were alone in the world. We don't need to do that anymore! We can lead the world by example, and in cooperation.

    My approach is to show people the potential of America to become a place where there are opportunities for wealth for everyone, opportunities for peace and security for everyone, and where we don't have to fear and to worry whether people will lose their homes because they're trying to get healthcare for a loved one, or they don't have the resources they need to achieve their dreams. Lately our idea of governance has been all about war; we have to change that. Otherwise, we are going to lose our country. We are going to lose our democracy.

    We may be at the most pivotal moment of American history, because we're either going to change course, and reintegrate with the world community, or we're going to be locked into a broader conflict that will become intractable. I'm determined and hopeful that we'll take the upland course.
  • If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
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