Kucinich 08!!!

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  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe....that's the contradiction abook.

    If your socialism includes me against my will, then no I do not sanction any right for you to do that. If you sanction that right for yourself, then you give permission to everyone who has ever expropriated your labor, your talents, your abilities, your dreams and your mind for their goals and aims.

    Your being a socialist does not give you a lease on my mind or body, just like my being a capitalist does not give me a lease on your mind or body.

    We all have to deal with the negative effects of capitalism. I see it as a huge problem, you don't. Once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    We all have to deal with the negative effects of capitalism. I see it as a huge problem, you don't.

    We'd all have to deal with the negative effects of socialism too, if we were all bound together by it. But you're ignoring the point. I don't wish to force you to play by capitalistic rules. You shouldn't have to, if you don't want to. But the "negative effects" of any social system just like the political wishes of a few don't give you a right to enslave anyone.
    Once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Hehe...ok, but you won't allow that. If we "agree to disagree", it implies that we go on our separate ways. People like Dennis Kucinich, when I disagree with him, will just pass a law that forces me to do what he wants. He's not "agreeing to disagree".
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe...ok, but you won't allow that. If we "agree to disagree", it implies that we go on our separate ways. People like Dennis Kucinich, when I disagree with him, will just pass a law that forces me to do what he wants. He's not "agreeing to disagree".

    Then support a candidate that won't pass laws or make you pay taxes, alright.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Then support a candidate that won't pass laws or make you pay taxes, alright.

    There isn't such a candidate, abook. And the very qualification you detail above would preclude the need for one. Why would I need a candidate when I have no desire to force you to do things for me?
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    There isn't such a candidate, abook. And the very qualification you detail above would preclude the need for one. Why would I need a candidate when I have no desire to force you to do things for me?

    Becuase I'd still be forced to live in your world where I think chaos would ensue.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Becuase I'd still be forced to live in your world where I think chaos would ensue.

    drilling for fear......You know, I don't often agree with Eddie Vedder on politics, but he was more right with that one than even he likely knows....

    I don't know what "chaos" you fear, abook. You can have everything you have now. You can have your governments. You and your friends can still boss each other around, for all I care. You just can't have me. You cannot own my mind. You cannot use my body. Not against my will. It's all I'm saying.
  • trappedinmyradio
    trappedinmyradio Posts: 1,189
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I prefer not to be an eternal pessimist and I choose to think positively. Even if things never go my way, I'm holding on to hope.

    I don't think I'm being a pessimist...just trying to explain a few things, from my perspective...and, well, at least, one fact (the majority comment).
    I'll dig a tunnel
    from my window to yours
  • trappedinmyradio
    trappedinmyradio Posts: 1,189
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    We all have to deal with the negative effects of capitalism. I see it as a huge problem, you don't. Once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

    anything that can be administered will suffer the effects of the humans administering that thing. capitalism, in a vacuum, is good...just like socialism.
    I'll dig a tunnel
    from my window to yours
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    drilling for fear......You know, I don't often agree with Eddie Vedder on politics, but he was more right with that one than even he likely knows....

    I don't know what "chaos" you fear, abook. You can have everything you have now. You can have your governments. You and your friends can still boss each other around, for all I care. You just can't have me. You cannot own my mind. You cannot use my body. Not against my will. It's all I'm saying.

    I view everyone going for whatever suits them and not taking into account the rest of the world as dangerous. I see the negative effects of this policy all over the globe.

    You're drilling for fear, too my friend. You often repeat how you feel the govt is enslaving you. I highly doubt too many people you'd meet would say the same. You constantly tout the notion of if the govt doesn't give you absolute freedom to do as you wish, then it's slavery. I view it more as a give and take relationship.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I view everyone going for whatever suits them and not taking into account the rest of the world as dangerous. I see the negative effects of this policy all over the globe.

    Hehe...then how does that fit into your plan of the entire world going for whatever suits you?
    You're drilling for fear, too my friend. You often repeat how you feel the govt is enslaving you. I highly doubt too many people you'd meet would say the same. You constantly tout the notion of if the govt doesn't give you absolute freedom to do as you wish, then it's slavery. I view it more as a give and take relationship.

    I'm not drilling for your fear. If you view government differently than I do, so be it. If you want to give your goods and services to the government, then it isn't slavery for you, just like it wouldn't have been slavery for an African who got on a boat, came to America, and voluteered his services at the first plantation he found.

    Fear of the government has little to do with my posts here. Why should those who can wield government like a sword, as most here desire to do, fear it? They already fear the swords of others, and that's why they picked up theirs to begin with. It's the logic of sword-wielding in the first place that I challenge people to think about.

    Regardless, I believe in "give and take" relationships too. There's a problem though: you have nothing I want, at least in the context of governments. So that leaves us with a bit of a conundrum.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe...then how does that fit into your plan of the entire world going for whatever suits you?



    I'm not drilling for your fear. If you view government differently than I do, so be it. If you want to give your goods and services to the government, then it isn't slavery for you, just like it wouldn't have been slavery for an African who got on a boat, came to America, and voluteered his services at the first plantation he found.

    Fear of the government has little to do with my posts here. Why should those who can wield government like a sword, as most here desire to do, fear it? They already fear the swords of others, and that's why they picked up theirs to begin with. It's the logic of sword-wielding in the first place that I challenge people to think about.

    Regardless, I believe in "give and take" relationships too. There's a problem though: you have nothing I want, at least in the context of governments. So that leaves us with a bit of a conundrum.

    It's a compromise. You're not being forced to live within this society so you are not a slave. Society has decided that we need certain rules.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    It's a compromise. You're not being forced to live within this society so you are not a slave. Society has decided that we need certain rules.

    It's not a compromise when you just tell me what to do, abook. You haven't sacrificed anything. If Dennis Kucinich gets elected, and he institutes UHC or signs onto Kyoto, or forbids me from firing and hiring who I want to, where is the compromise? What has he given up?

    I'm being forced to live within this society in exactly the same way society is being forced to live with me. Cohabitation is a fact of life, anywhere. What I'm proposing recognizes the rights of both parties. What you're proposing recognizes only your own.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    It's not a compromise when you just tell me what to do, abook. You haven't sacrificed anything. If Dennis Kucinich gets elected, and he institutes UHC or signs onto Kyoto, or forbids me from firing and hiring who I want to, where is the compromise? What has he given up?

    I'm being forced to live within this society in exactly the same way society is being forced to live with me. Cohabitation is a fact of life, anywhere. What I'm proposing recognizes the rights of both parties. What you're proposing recognizes only your own.

    Society doesn't feel forced to live with you. You're not a slave when you have the ability to leave a situation that you feel is wrong. Everyone is forced to live with the actions and will of another whether it be by laws or the lack there of.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Society doesn't feel forced to live with you.

    Hehe...good. Because I'm not forcing them to stay here, just like it's not forcing me to stay here.
    You're not a slave when you have the ability to leave a situation that you feel is wrong.

    Every slave had the ability to leave their situation. Suicide and escape was a choice for each. That, however, did not make them non-slaves. A slave is a person who is forced to work for purposes aside from his or her own, abook. Just because I have the option to go to Mexico does not absolve you of the consequences of your proposals. You also have the option to take your proposals to Mexico. Yet I have no right to link your existence on this land to an invented obligation in my mind.
    Everyone is forced to live with the actions and will of another whether it be by laws or the lack there of.

    Very much so, yes. We are all slaves, in a sense, to that which created us, Nature, and the environment she put us in. There is no escaping that fact, be you a capitalist or a socialist or something altogether different.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe...good. Because I'm not forcing them to stay here, just like it's not forcing me to stay here.



    Every slave had the ability to leave their situation. Suicide and escape was a choice for each. That, however, did not make them non-slaves. A slave is a person who is forced to work for purposes aside from his or her own, abook. Just because I have the option to go to Mexico does not absolve you of the consequences of your proposals. You also have the option to take your proposals to Mexico. Yet I have no right to link your existence on this land to an invented obligation in my mind.

    If you had your way, you would choose to have society live without the options of making rules and regulations to protect itself as it saw fit. That is also force, especially if the majority thinks these laws are needed.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    If you had your way, you would choose to have society live without the options of making rules and regulations to protect itself as it saw fit. That is also force, especially if the majority thinks these laws are needed.

    No. Society can have whatever rules it likes. It simply cannot, however, assume that it can do whatever it would like with my mind or my body in the name of "order".

    Perhaps I can explain this better with an example. Let's say you have kids and I have kids. We're both parents. Now, just because I'm not going to force you to live by my parenting standards doesn't mean a) I have no standards of my own or b) you can't have rules of your own. Understand?

    If you and your "society" want to have rules, who am I to stop you? If those rules are socialistic and crazy, so be it.
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    farfromglorified wrote:
    If you and your "society" want to have rules, who am I to stop you? If those rules are socialistic and crazy, so be it.
    You still haven't said where you would go or who you would push out if you stayed where you are.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    No. Society can have whatever rules it likes. It simply cannot, however, assume that it can do whatever it would like with my mind or my body in the name of "order".

    Perhaps I can explain this better with an example. Let's say you have kids and I have kids. We're both parents. Now, just because I'm not going to force you to live by my parenting standards doesn't mean a) I have no standards of my own or b) you can't have rules of your own. Understand?

    If you and your "society" want to have rules, who am I to stop you? If those rules are socialistic and crazy, so be it.

    Because you living inside our society would have to adhere to these rules we chose to protect us as a whole.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    RainDog wrote:
    You still haven't said where you would go or who you would push out if you stayed where you are.

    I'd stay right here. And why would I push someone out?
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Because you living inside our society would have to adhere to these rules we chose to protect us as a whole.

    Hehe....I don't live "inside your society". I live on land. So do you.

    The borders of your society are the borders of the minds of those who willingly participate with you. You cannot translate the borders of a society to the borders on a map. That's the logic of a dictator.

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