gun control:i dont understand...

Ahnimus

The École Polytechnique Massacre, also known as the Montreal Massacre, occurred on December 6, 1989 at the École Polytechnique in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Twenty-five year-old Marc Lépine, armed with a legally obtained semi-automatic rifle and a hunting knife, shot twenty-eight people, killing fourteen (all of them women) and injuring the other fourteen before killing himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

Handguns are restricted in Canada

Ahnimus

The Dawson College shooting occurred on September 13, 2006 at Dawson College, a CEGEP in Westmount near downtown Montreal, Quebec, Canada. The perpetrator, Kimveer Gill, began shooting outside the de Maisonneuve Boulevard entrance to the school, and moved towards the atrium by the cafeteria on the main floor.[1][2] One victim died at the scene, while another 19 were injured, eight of whom were listed in critical condition with six requiring surgery.[3][4][5] The shooter later committed suicide by shooting himself in the head, after being shot in the arm by police.[6]

Victims were treated at the Montreal General Hospital and other Montreal-area hospitals. It is the fourth fatal school shooting in Montreal, after the École Polytechnique massacre in 1989, the Valery Fabrikant shooting spree at Concordia University in 1992, and a murder at an immigration school in 1997.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_shooting

Ahnimus

The rate of homicide [in Canada] using firearms dropped by 50% over that period while the rate homicide using other methods increased slightly. In 1976 the firearm homicide rate was 0.95 per 100,000 and the non-firearm rate 1.47 per 100,000. As of 2004 the firearm rate was 0.43 per 100,000 to a non-firearm rate of 1.51 per 100,000. This drop in firearm related homicide has meant homicide by melee methods (stabbing, strangulation and beating) always greatly exceed firearm homicides and there have been years where the number of homicides committed with knives alone exceeds those with firearms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada

Jeanie

Pegasus wrote:

I'm not saying there's no gun (or knives) problems! (I did mention it)

I'm talking specifically of massacres on the scale of the ones that happened in the last few weeks! that's what the poster was referring to and that's why I'm talking about!

banning guns is not the complete solution, but it's a big step in the right direction.

difference between UK and US is that when someone get shot or stabbed, it still makes national news, because it's uncommon!

(and I live and work in South London for whoever mentioned it..never been scared of walking down the street, no matter how late)

But it's not a step in the right direction. Because it's not addressing the underlying causes or problems. It's only by coincidence that there's not been another massacre here. Read Ahnimus' stats. Martin Bryant was able to escalate his crimes over a period of time and was known to mental health professionals who did nothing. Not only should he not have been able to get his hands on a semi automatic weapon but he should also have been committed a bloody long time before he was. Our mental health services have not changed. They're still piss poor and pathetic AND there are still unregistered illegal automatic and semi automatic weapons available here. So it's only a matter of time.
And I'm not getting your point about it making headlines in the UK as opposed to the US? As far as I can see it's all over the media no matter where it happens.
Did you bother to read what I said about the increase in Gangland killings here WITH GUNS that only by fluke have not had an innocent bystander caught in the crossfire? I mean lucky if you're not involved in the underworld but there's been increase in GUN RELATED DEATHS that the gun laws have not slowed down or stopped at all. If anything they've increased. So banning some guns has done nothing.

Ahnimus

It's kind of like banning cocaine....

onelongsong

Jeanie wrote:

What's this team bizo white man?

I think I'd rather be shot once and killed instantly than bleed to death from being stabbed in multiple spots.

I can understand people being over all the gun massacres, they're a horrible thing. But I don't agree that guns are bad, or any worse than any other weapon if you're on the recieving end and the outcome is you die.
What I'm tired of hearing is that it's all about the guns, when it's not JUST about the guns. It's about all whole bunch of stuff that nobody seems to take into consideration at all. I know plenty of people here that still have guns and I'd rather spend time in their company than some of the psycho nut cases I've come across who would kill me soon as look at me because they think I've got four heads or something or coz the little voices told em to and because we STILL haven't managed adequate mental health services and we STILL haven't shut down black market guns.

what really puzzles me is how do you smuggle onto an island? here we have thousands of illegal guns coming over the mexican border each day. but you're an island; so is the uk.
and i'd rather be shot than stabbed because bullet wounds are rarely fatal.

Ahnimus

onelongsong wrote:

what really puzzles me is how do you smuggle onto an island? here we have thousands of illegal guns coming over the mexican border each day. but you're an island; so is the uk.
and i'd rather be shot than stabbed because bullet wounds are rarely fatal.

We have a lot of guns up in Kanada too. Presumably coming from the border with the U.S.. or so I've heard, illegal gun possession is a big problem here.

onelongsong

Ahnimus wrote:

We have a lot of guns up in Kanada too. Presumably coming from the border with the U.S.. or so I've heard, illegal gun possession is a big problem here.

so; how can you support disarming a society so it can't defend itself? that's the question i've been trying to get an answer to. jeremy talked about the shootings in south london; jeanie told us about oz; i'm honestly trying to understand the mindset.

on the flip side; you can look at crime now; and imagine the increase if citizens were disarmed. the last school shooting i remember was in canada. so you can't use that argument. the criminals already have the police out gunned. what do you think?

Jeanie

onelongsong wrote:

what really puzzles me is how do you smuggle onto an island? here we have thousands of illegal guns coming over the mexican border each day. but you're an island; so is the uk.
and i'd rather be shot than stabbed because bullet wounds are rarely fatal.

Boats me dear. I think enormous shipments of all kinds of shit come in via the wharves and gets waved through if you know the right people, paid your dues. And don't forget we have an ENORMOUS unpatrolled coastline. Mostly our coast guard is busy trying to drown poor sods that are fleeing persecution in their own country by being shipped out here by the bastards running the illegal immigration scams in Indonesia. Which the Indonesian government knows about and does nothing. Oh that and trying to save the illegal fishing of Pantagonian Toothfish and sharks. They got their hands full with all that stuff. So it would be easy to bring weapons into the country along the coast, just like drugs and all kinds of shit. BUT I personally think that they come in containers on the big ships and slip past customs accidently on purpose. There's been a lot of rumour and inuendo about the "other interests" of some of the fancy folk from the big end of town.

Jeanie

onelongsong wrote:

so; how can you support disarming a society so it can't defend itself? that's the question i've been trying to get an answer to. jeremy talked about the shootings in south london; jeanie told us about oz; i'm honestly trying to understand the mindset.

on the flip side; you can look at crime now; and imagine the increase if citizens were disarmed. the last school shooting i remember was in canada. so you can't use that argument. the criminals already have the police out gunned. what do you think?

Actually I think the last school shooting was in Finland last month.

And this is why I think a lot of people here have become more concerned and interested in guns that would not normally be. Because we are sitting ducks.

onelongsong

Pegasus wrote:

I'm not saying there's no gun (or knives) problems! (I did mention it)

I'm talking specifically of massacres on the scale of the ones that happened in the last few weeks! that's what the poster was referring to and that's why I'm talking about!

banning guns is not the complete solution, but it's a big step in the right direction.

difference between UK and US is that when someone get shot or stabbed, it still makes national news, because it's uncommon!

(and I live and work in South London for whoever mentioned it..never been scared of walking down the street, no matter how late)

when jeremy is about you can call him a liar about uni in south london.

as for the rest; we're yanks mate. ask us to give up our guns and we'll say ok
............................................. try to take them.
that's the bottom line. you can talk until your vocal cords give out. americans will never give up our guns.

onelongsong

Jeanie wrote:

Actually I think the last school shooting was in Finland last month.

And this is why I think a lot of people here have become more concerned and interested in guns that would not normally be. Because we are sitting ducks.

people only bring up shootings in the us. if they mention other countries; it takes the wind out of their disarm america arguement.

Jeanie

onelongsong wrote:

people only bring up shootings in the us. if they mention other countries; it takes the wind out of their disarm america arguement.

It's easy to find a scapegoat.

Bet those poor sods in Finland wish that someone was more interested in disarming Finland and shutting down dodgy internet sites that promote that kind of thing.

prism

onelongsong wrote:

sorry for blowing up. i'm having a rough day.
shite like that doesn't happen in states that allow their citizens to carry conceald weapons. so if we want to use logic; we should arm everyone.

you might want try using logic yourself

As of 2006, two states Wisconsin and Illinois plus Washington D.C. don't allow for concealed-carry privileges.

look it up

but you know i'm sure that had this guy had a knife instead he could've still killed nine and injured lots more from a distance in the space of about 2 minutes :rolleyes:

yes, guns don't kill. it's people WITH GUNS that kill, alot more than kill by other means in the US. if people didn't have a gun so readily available would the murder rate be as nearly high as it is currently? hell no

Pegasus

Jeanie wrote:

But it's not a step in the right direction. Because it's not addressing the underlying causes or problems. It's only by coincidence that there's not been another massacre here. Read Ahnimus' stats. Martin Bryant was able to escalate his crimes over a period of time and was known to mental health professionals who did nothing. Not only should he not have been able to get his hands on a semi automatic weapon but he should also have been committed a bloody long time before he was. Our mental health services have not changed. They're still piss poor and pathetic AND there are still unregistered illegal automatic and semi automatic weapons available here. So it's only a matter of time.
And I'm not getting your point about it making headlines in the UK as opposed to the US? As far as I can see it's all over the media no matter where it happens.
Did you bother to read what I said about the increase in Gangland killings here WITH GUNS that only by fluke have not had an innocent bystander caught in the crossfire? I mean lucky if you're not involved in the underworld but there's been increase in GUN RELATED DEATHS that the gun laws have not slowed down or stopped at all. If anything they've increased. So banning some guns has done nothing.

there's always going to be disturbed people and no amount of healthcare will completely make it safe (short of locking up anyone remotely unusual and throwing away the key..like that's somewhere we'd like to live!)
the difficulty to legally obtain firearms does greatly limit the occurrence and damage those people can do though.

as for headlines..massacres like this week's one makes headlines everywhere but individual shootings and stabbings don't in the US like they do in Europe, because they're far more frequent.

banning guns might not have a great effect on criminal violence (and even I'd argue that: the criminals have MORE reasons to arm themselves if the general population is itself armed.. it might deter petty criminals but not the actually dangerous ones), but it sure has an effect on non-criminal violence (nutters, accidents, arguments that degenerate..)
all those escalate with guns, both because the occurrences are more likely to be serious injuries or fatalities and because people (well, men mostly) feel more cocky with a gun! (the same way there's statistical evidence that shows that wearing a helmet on a bike increases the risk of accident because it makes riders feel more secure and less careful).

the statistics speak for themselves. (and the 'right' to bear arms that the Americans are so gung-ho about is creating the aggression mentality..if you got a right to have it, it goes that you have a 'right' to use it. All of the current gang-gun problems here come from those stupid kids trying to copy the US culture!)

Jeanie

Pegasus wrote:

there's always going to be disturbed people and no amount of healthcare will completely make it safe (short of locking up anyone remotely unusual and throwing away the key..like that's somewhere we'd like to live!)
the difficulty to legally obtain firearms does greatly limit the occurrence and damage those people can do though.

as for headlines..massacres like this week's one makes headlines everywhere but individual shootings and stabbings don't in the US like they do in Europe, because they're far more frequent.

banning guns might not have a great effect on criminal violence (and even I'd argue that: the criminals have MORE reasons to arm themselves if the general population is itself armed.. it might deter petty criminals but not the actually dangerous ones), but it sure has an effect on non-criminal violence (nutters, accidents, arguments that degenerate..)
all those escalate with guns, both because the occurrences are more likely to be serious injuries or fatalities and because people (well, men mostly) feel more cocky with a gun! (the same way there's statistical evidence that shows that wearing a helmet on a bike increases the risk of accident because it makes riders feel more secure and less careful).

the statistics speak for themselves. (and the 'right' to bear arms that the Americans are so gung-ho about is creating the aggression mentality..if you got a right to have it, it goes that you have a 'right' to use it. All of the current gang-gun problems here come from those stupid kids trying to copy the US culture!)

Yup. Right o. Well I feel better now I've heard your opinion. Safer.
Because of all the sweeping generalizations and the absolute certainty that you hold that it's the consitution and the right to bear arms that's the problem in America and not a whole bunch of other things combined. But hey what would I know? I'm just a dumb Aussie who was probably a dumb pom three generations ago.

catefrances

TrixieCat wrote:

You are asking a bunch of people on a message board what goes through their mind??? What do you want us to say? What do you Think goes through our minds when a random shooting occurs, or someone open fires in a school or in a shopping mall????
Do you think people are all whooping it up and yelling "awesome!!!!!!!!!!! gimme some more beer cleetus! Let's go shoot ourselves some more innocent folk!"

Do we all think ah fuck it??? Please stop defining our country through laws and bills that are so antiquated they barely take women into account.

i dont know what you all think, hence my question in the first place trixie.
i want you to say what you think when you hear about one of these shootings. i'm not defining your country based of laws and bills that are hundreds of years old. i am asking about your thoughts and feelings.

this is not a difficult thing im asking i dont think.

and no i dont think you all are wooping it up and yelling awesome. we can all sit here from a safe distance and rant about what we see as being wrong with the US, but that is not my intention here. i am curious in this instance in how you all deal with such occurrances such as in nebraska. does it make you more cautious when next you find yourself visiting a mall? do you sometimes think 'yes i wish the gun laws were tighter?' do you think 'oh fuck not again'? do you thank the lord it happened some place else? or do you go about your business and have it never enter your mind?

onelongsong

prism wrote:

you might want try using logic yourself

As of 2006, two states Wisconsin and Illinois plus Washington D.C. don't allow for concealed-carry privileges.

look it up

but you know i'm sure that had this guy had a knife instead he could've still killed nine and injured lots more from a distance in the space of about 2 minutes :rolleyes:

yes, guns don't kill. it's people WITH GUNS that kill, alot more than kill by other means in the US. if people didn't have a gun so readily available would the murder rate be as nearly high as it is currently? hell no

there are 23 states that allow conceald/carry. i don't have to look it up. i can also tell you which states will honor my conceald weapons permit and allow me to carry conceald.

the crime rate will rise. ahnimus posted the stats for canada and jeanie posted the stats for oz. it may have been on another thread. but you can't stop murder.

onelongsong

catefrances wrote:

i dont know what you all think, hence my question in the first place trixie.
i want you to say what you think when you hear about one of these shootings. i'm not defining your country based of laws and bills that are hundreds of years old. i am asking about your thoughts and feelings.

this is not a difficult thing im asking i dont think.

and no i dont think you all are wooping it up and yelling awesome. we can all sit here from a safe distance and rant about what we see as being wrong with the US, but that is not my intention here. i am curious in this instance in how you all deal with such occurrances such as in nebraska. does it make you more cautious when next you find yourself visiting a mall? do you sometimes think 'yes i wish the gun laws were tighter?' do you think 'oh fuck not again'? do you thank the lord it happened some place else? or do you go about your business and have it never enter your mind?

i'll give you an honest answer but you don't want to hear it.
the very first thought that goes through my head is:
FUCK; NOW ALL THE ANTI-GUN NUTS WILL BE OUT IN FORCE.
that is the honest first thought i have.

catefrances

onelongsong wrote:

i'll give you an honest answer but you don't want to hear it.
the very first thought that goes through my head is:
FUCK; NOW ALL THE ANTI-GUN NUTS WILL BE OUT IN FORCE.
that is the honest first thought i have.

thank you. and knowing you, your first thought does not surprise me in the least al.
and btw i ALWAYS want to hear the honest answer.