why do you believe in God or...

CorporateWhore

dunkman wrote:

ok then what about a remote tribe of Amazonian indians who've never even heard of the bible, jesus or arks.. they worship the river cos it makes their plants grow... do they go to heaven?

Yes, if they led a good life.

dunkman wrote:

some people make very very bad parents... Eminem's mom for example

where did i mention christianity.

I can only speak for Christianity. Other religions support the use of war to further their goals.

chopitdown

dunkman wrote:

what about a baby that dies aged 3months in a car crash? does it go to hell cos it didnt have a chance to believe?

its been said on here many times but a child rapist killer could still go to heaven if he repents his sins and truly believes in God... whereas a man who does nothing wrong all his life and is then crushed to death by a falling church spire on his way to the local youth centre where he was about to give a talk on how to be a better person in life will go to hell.

if god NEEDS people to believe in him before he allows people into heaven then he's an arrogant narcissist... and what about people who kill in the name of religion... they truly believe in god.. what awaits them?

I don't think God needs people, the way you're talking...i think he wants people to believe in Him. People need to believe in God, but God doesn't need us to believe, but wants people to. If he needs us, that would mean that he relies on us to be God. If He truly is God, he doesn't need us to validate Him b/c he'd still be God, even if no one follows him.

I think one of the things that we as humans try to do is to adapt things to our standard and if it doesn't fit what we expect of it, we write it off. Presuppose that their is something that is perfect out there, if you believe there is something perfect and better than you and you believe you are not perfect, why would you try to conform something perfect to ideas that aren't? That it seems is where the ultimate problem is, we dont' want to admit that there may be something greater than us as individuals. If we do admit that then we either have to change to try to become better and try to adapt (however unsuccessfully) to perfection or choose to ignore it or decide that it isn't there. I believe there is something more powerful than me, more perfect than me (which isn't too hard at all), and I agree with what someone else has said, I believe I've seen God work in my life and in others lives.

chopitdown

dunkman wrote:

ok then what about a remote tribe of Amazonian indians who've never even heard of the bible, jesus or arks.. they worship the river cos it makes their plants grow... do they go to heaven?

There is a concept of accountablity in some christian circles. God alone is the one on who the decision lies, so most people tend to think that if you have never heard of Christ etc... but still recognize that there is something greater God knows the heart of that person and will hold them accountable to what they have been exposed to.

dunkman

CorporateWhore wrote:

Yes, if they led a good life.

so what about someone who has led a good life but doesnt believe in god?

CorporateWhore

dunkman wrote:

so what about someone who has led a good life but doesnt believe in god?

That's an oxymoron. How are you going to lead a good life but deny that the greatest good exists? Certainly there are good atheists. But, they deny that the greatest good exists in favor of their own good. Ultimately it comes down to thinking that they are greater than God - that their good is more good than God.

dunkman

CorporateWhore wrote:

That's an oxymoron. How are you going to lead a good life but deny that the greatest good exists? Certainly there are good atheists. But, they deny that the greatest good exists in favor of their own good. Ultimately it comes down to thinking that they are greater than God - that their good is more good than God.

oxymorons are 2 words.. silent alarm, jumbo shrimp, smart american, things like that...

so to live a good life you must believe in god, and then and only then will heaven await.... yet the amazonian indians who have no knowledge of god yet live a good life will get into heaven due to having led a good life, but that good life cant exist cos they havent acknowledged god?

this religion stuff is confusing and very rulesy... i have no time for either, in fact i'll bail out on this one now and will content myself with sinful living, shagging, boozing, ignoring charity callers to my door, generally taking the piss out of people less fortunate than me... and if theres a god then i've fucked up and i'm going to hell and if there isnt then i've lived a "good life" and can be content that i had fun whilst bible-bashers were out trying to suppress their thoughts of sinful lust by selling cookies at a stall every summer sunday

chopitdown

dunkman wrote:

oxymorons are 2 words.. silent alarm, jumbo shrimp, smart american, things like that...

so to live a good life you must believe in god, and then and only then will heaven await.... yet the amazonian indians who have no knowledge of god yet live a good life will get into heaven due to having led a good life, but that good life cant exist cos they havent acknowledged god?

this religion stuff is confusing and very rulesy... i have no time for either, in fact i'll bail out on this one now and will content myself with sinful living, shagging, boozing, ignoring charity callers to my door, generally taking the piss out of people less fortunate than me... and if theres a god then i've fucked up and i'm going to hell and if there isnt then i've lived a "good life" and can be content that i had fun whilst bible-bashers were out trying to suppress their thoughts of sinful lust by selling cookies at a stall every summer sunday

2 things...it's about accountability, and why all the sudden concern and care for the amazonians?

nickcat0

The way I understand Christian beliefs , is that whether you go to heaven or not , is dependent upon your own personal relationship with God .
God judges us all , and it would be presumptious for us to try to second guess other peoples ( including Amazonian Indians )relationship with Him .
All we can do is sort out our own life .
We've been given the guidelines on how to lead our lives , what the "rules" are , what the admission criteria for heaven is etc.

stu gee

Surely as the world has become more screwed up in time, the requirements and standards needed to get into heaven have slipped a little? Im not religious and dont go to church, but i dont dismiss the possibility of their being a god, heaven or hell etc.

Im not evil and dont think i deserve to be going to the same place as people like Hitler, Ted Bundy, Ian Huntley, Phill collins etc, yet according to the bible hell is where im headed if i dont change my ways. Doesnt seem right to me.

dunkman

chopitdown wrote:

2 things...it's about accountability, and why all the sudden concern and care for the amazonians?

i dont know, i felt they were left out of the whole Heaven or Hell equation.. i could have picked Eskimos or a tribe of Masai warriors from Kenya.. doesnt really matter... Amazonian women tend to leave their jugs out as well so i plumped for them... so to speak

nickcat0

stu gee wrote:

Surely as the world has become more screwed up in time, the requirements and standards needed to get into heaven have slipped a little? Im not religious and dont go to church, but i dont dismiss the possibility of their being a god, heaven or hell etc.

Im not evil and dont think i deserve to be going to the same place as people like Hitler, Ted Bundy, Ian Huntley, Phill collins etc, yet according to the bible hell is where im headed if i dont change my ways. Doesnt seem right to me.

Where does it say that God's idea of fair and right matches ours ?

CorporateWhore

dunkman wrote:

oxymorons are 2 words.. silent alarm, jumbo shrimp, smart american, things like that...

so to live a good life you must believe in god, and then and only then will heaven await.... yet the amazonian indians who have no knowledge of god yet live a good life will get into heaven due to having led a good life, but that good life cant exist cos they havent acknowledged god?

this religion stuff is confusing and very rulesy... i have no time for either, in fact i'll bail out on this one now and will content myself with sinful living, shagging, boozing, ignoring charity callers to my door, generally taking the piss out of people less fortunate than me... and if theres a god then i've fucked up and i'm going to hell and if there isnt then i've lived a "good life" and can be content that i had fun whilst bible-bashers were out trying to suppress their thoughts of sinful lust by selling cookies at a stall every summer sunday

Um, okay. Holy atheist. Oxymoron.

The indians you speak of did not receive the gospel. They cannot act on information that they do not know.

As long as you resign to your lifestyle and refuse to make it better, no amount of God can help you anyway.

stu gee

nickcat0 wrote:

Where does it say that God's idea of fair and right matches ours ?

Eh?

i just assumed that God, being all good that he is, wouldnt categorise someone who is basically a decent guy, with someone who kills people for fun.

CorporateWhore

stu gee wrote:

Eh?

i just assumed that God, being all good that he is, wouldnt categorise someone who is basically a decent guy, with someone who kills people for fun.

Not to sound extreme but...what's the difference between the guy who kills for fun and the guy who goes his whole life being a mediocre human being?

gue_barium

CorporateWhore wrote:

Not to sound extreme but...what's the difference between the guy who kills for fun and the guy who goes his whole life being a mediocre human being?

I'd call a guy that kills for fun a mediocre human being.

dunkman

CorporateWhore wrote:

Not to sound extreme but...what's the difference between the guy who kills for fun and the guy who goes his whole life being a mediocre human being?

since when did "decent guy" become "mediocre human being"

chopitdown

stu gee wrote:

Eh?

i just assumed that God, being all good that he is, wouldnt categorise someone who is basically a decent guy, with someone who kills people for fun.

if christianity is all about being good and that's enough to get into heaven... why did Jesus die? The thing is, no one is "good" enough to get into heaven. So the ultimate question is not how good were you, but did you love and worship God and acknowledge what Jesus did. edit: see above answers for people who haven't heard about the bible.

gue_barium

CorporateWhore wrote:

Um, okay. Holy atheist. Oxymoron.

The indians you speak of did not receive the gospel. They cannot act on information that they do not know.

As long as you resign to your lifestyle and refuse to make it better, no amount of God can help you anyway.

Indians are cool. They know how to live the way of the earth.

Thus Sprach Zarathrustra

nickcat0

CorporateWhore wrote:

Not to sound extreme but...what's the difference between the guy who kills for fun and the guy who goes his whole life being a mediocre human being?

That does sound a bit extreme but as it was once said to me when I was arguing that your average person and a murderer were miles apart ....... yes there is a difference but the average person will still commit any number of sins e.g everybody tells lies ; everybody gets angry or jealous at times .
Just because there is a perception amongst humans that some sins are worse than others , doesn't make the "little" sins okay .
We all sin and in God's eyes that is unacceptable , but if we are truly sorry we wil be forgiven .

gue_barium

nickcat0 wrote:

That does sound a bit extreme but as it was once said to me when I was arguing that your average person and a murderer were miles apart ....... yes there is a difference but the average person will still commit any number of sins e.g everybody tells lies ; everybody gets angry or jealous at times .
Just because there is a perception amongst humans that some sins are worse than others , doesn't make the "little" sins okay .
We all sin and in God's eyes that is unacceptable , but if we are truly sorry we wil be forgiven .

Nah, you got it all wrong. The gig is up on God and the sinning. God told me this morning, "son, sometimes you just gotta say, 'what the fuck'."