Life contradicts itself. Life is full of absurdities and paradoxes. That is its nature. What you are looking for is satisfaction of your logical awareness which is independent of the whole and Truth of life. Even in the logical discipline of quantum physics, paradoxes, contradictions and absurdities are known and accepted as existing in order to appreciate the depths of natural principles.
The logical, linear view provides us a map for the territory. However, when you confuse the map or the symbols, which merely represent the Truth, to BE the truth, the problem is in your methods, not with spirituality, itself.
The bible is meant to be read with whole and integrated intelligence, which includes our intuitive and emotional intelligences (heart and spirit) alongside logic. Therefore, we can appreciate truths whole-istically.
On the other hand, we can use logic to "prove" or "justify" anything we like. If our logic is detached of the "whole", whether in our intelligences, or in reality, it will be also detached of realism.
You are a philosophy major aren't you? Well said. I agree with everything you've said here, but I put GREAT EMPHASIS on your closing paragraph.
My faith or "spirituality" begins and ends here: humanity.
this still answers nothing. how about you tell me in your own words instead of hiding behind scripture passages you seem to know don't prove shit with respect to your point. how is a person raised in aboriginal australia supposed to become a christian? how is a poor old man in rural india who has never heard of anything aside from the hinduism his ancestors have believed for a thousand years supposed to suddenly learn about jesus and jump on the bandwagon? or is it just a subtle way for you and your kind to convince yourselves white, anglo-saxon people are superior to everyone else due to god inserting his religion into our culture, but not indian or chinese culture?
first, the whole anglo-saxon is irrelevant... i didn't even know my grandpa so what am i going to worry about my entire people? especially since i'm mexican. second, don't you get it? i understand what you're saying and i'm not going to argue against it. i know what you mean. but don't you understand that i believe in the bible? that's it. that's all i can say. i'm not going to argue with you. so, yeah, i guess... you win this one. that still doesn't rule out anything tho... i have my beliefs, my beliefs which are according to the bible says that no one's without excuse... that's it.
this is a bullshit cop out and you know it. god could have done whatever he damn well pleased. in your religion, he decided everyone would pay for the sins of adam and eve. he could simply have forgiven original sin and wiped the slate clean and let everyone sin and be forgiven on their own merits. instead, he made original sin stick to every human ever, said he'd make us all damned for the first humans' mistake. then it is OUR fault jesus had to die? is god not powerful enough to have forgiven original sin without that?
when adam sinned it's as if he passed it onto his children, and the children to their children... that's why romans says, "wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men." God's not so worried about sin alone... the only reason why he hates sin so much is because of what sin has caused to humanity. it's brought death. it wasn't God who intentionally made "sin stick to every human ever" it came with them. when i was born, i was born to a corrupted body; a body that is prone to get sick and die. so were you. at least, that's the message of the bible... you could argue against it all you want, but it's really not going to get you anywhere. and neither for me.
you say that God is powerful enough to get rid of sin if he wanted to, well, no, not really. God has never interfered with our choices, as i've said many times. since he placed a will in us to make our own decisions it's as if God's glory is perfected in our lives when we choose life, or the life that Christ came to show us. and basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden... or so it goes.
if god is all-powerful as christianity claims, he could make things easier for humans, he could forgive with a wave of his hand.
read above
ironic tht when this thread started i was talking about my belief in god.
what do you mean?
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Okay, I will use a more simple example of contradiction in the bible. David kills Goliath, and cuts off his head... God instills in him the power to do this. Why would God empower David to kill Goliath if he teaches that "Thou Shalt Not Kill"... and if you say that God didn't empower him to do so, but just allowed it, then why did God allow this story to be in the Bible, as it promotes something he created laws against? After all it is the inspired word of God is it not?
or you could've talked about when God instructed Joshua to do a genocide in Joshua 6...
Here is another contradiction. Jesus preaches about forgiveness, but in the end days he will throw all of the non-believers into a lake of fire where they will experience an ETERNITY of TORTURE! Please explain.
now this one, this one is comical.... but sorry it's got to end this way. i love you but i'm too tired to explain.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
People spend years in spiritual training in order to do so. Others have spontaneous experiences of it. Ultimately, it's transcendence beyond the realm of form. It's impossible to explain and do it justice. Although it's very simple and natural when one is clear and "free".
I know I am naturally wired to experience it. I have a natural intuition in the "inner worlds". In terms of personality types, I know lot of people who are so inclined as well. Unfortunately, many people I know as so inclined are entranced by sensory stimulus with vices, etc. and numb themselves to this predisposition, rather than hone it.
I literally cannot describe the no-thing spiritual experiences I've had, except with metaphors that are sadly lacking, such as by talking in terms of "Light", or saying "it's LIKE God came from the heavens and talked to me."
The reason I continue to do what I can to hone these experiences are not only because they are stunning, but because when I open to channel this "no-thing" energy, it allows me to feel amazing energy pass through me in my mundane life, through debating, creating, or whatever. To in-form one's life with the "no-thing" is amazing. And the reason it feels so good, is because it is our base nature. We naturally gravitate towards joy and deep all-encompassing unconditional Love, as it's what we stem from.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Close! Unfortunately or fortunately, I've had huge amounts of interactive experience with these absurdities and contradictions through the teacher of mental illness that I dealt with for 15 or so years. I've had to learn to resolve the contradictions into a harmonious whole, as well, in order to heal. Necessity is the mother of invention.
Well said.
Thanks.
I agree with everything you've said here, but I put GREAT EMPHASIS on your closing paragraph.
We all lose touch with "reality" with our stupid ideas, beliefs and ridiculous justifications all the time. The problem is we're too egotistical and caught up in our "scripts" that we don't see it.
My faith or "spirituality" begins and ends here: humanity.
Whatever level of development we are at--whatever worldview we see through--we each have our own way that our spiritual capacity informs our lives.
Why don't I see you around myspace anymore?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
yeah, you're pretty out of it dude... you lack social skills or somethin....
You believe in an imaginary being who made the whole universe and everything in it (except dinosaurs because he never mentioned them to anybody), and I am the one who is "pretty out of it"? I guess I fail to see your logic.
i don't spend anytime giving my 2 cents, or brainwashing people with my beliefs, or political agendas...
Then why are you in this forum? A forum who's primary existance is exactly what you profess to not do?!
i don't claim to know more than you
Yes you do.
don't claim to be holier than you
Yes you do. By default as a believer and I as a non-believer, you think I will perish and that you will be saved.
don't claim anything.
You claim that you know God exists and what is and is not to be taken literally as the word of God. You claim a lot of things.
i only have my beliefs, and my beliefs are rightly earned at the first signs of breathe... just like you... so one more time my friend. respect my beliefs, as i respect yours.
I am not your friend just as I am not a Jihadist's friend. I think your beliefs and the millions of others who share your beliefs contribute to a system that promotes war, genocide, racism, and bigotry. So one more time... Respect is earned not a ""God" given right" and I don't respect your beliefs.
as far as i'm concerned, religion has nothing to do with my beliefs.
you say that God is powerful enough to get rid of sin if he wanted to, well, no, not really. God has never interfered with our choices, as i've said many times. since he placed a will in us to make our own decisions it's as if God's glory is perfected in our lives when we choose life, or the life that Christ came to show us. and basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden... or so it goes.
read above
what do you mean?
let me get this straight... god is NOT powerful enough to forgive a sin without jesus? he lacks that power? that's one rather limited god. he can create the world but cannot forgive any human unless that human worships jesus?
either god is limited, or he CHOSE that rule which he knew would condemn billions. and you try to tell me this is love?
let me get this straight... god is NOT powerful enough to forgive a sin without jesus? he lacks that power? that's one rather limited god. he can create the world but cannot forgive any human unless that human worships jesus?
either god is limited, or he CHOSE that rule which he knew would condemn billions. and you try to tell me this is love?
you cant be because
1. that joke was shit and
2. well, i don't need a 2 because number 1 was so great
:cool:
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
John Merrick called. He said "good day shir, can Cory give me my face back"
and Lou called asking if he could keep your rectum platercast for another week or so...
i get lots of calls to... mostly from lonely women who moan a lot
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
John Merrick called. He said "good day shir, can Cory give me my face back"
and Lou called asking if he could keep your rectum platercast for another week or so...
i get lots of calls to... mostly from lonely women who moan a lot
Oh no you fookin' di'nt...
I'm not sure if I'm typing in the correct Scottish accent.;) Anyway, I was going to ramble on about you sucking the balls and fucking yourself and whatnot. You know, standard procedure.
I'm not sure if I'm typing in the correct Scottish accent.;) Anyway, I was going to ramble on about you sucking the balls and fucking yourself and whatnot. You know, standard procedure.
You have a grrrreat fookin daaay:)
And yes, tell Lou to keep that casmplast mold.
nah yer accent is shite, but nice try ya glaikit bampot
you have a great day too amigo. i'm off home to randomly grope my wife
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
this still answers nothing. how about you tell me in your own words instead of hiding behind scripture passages you seem to know don't prove shit with respect to your point. how is a person raised in aboriginal australia supposed to become a christian? how is a poor old man in rural india who has never heard of anything aside from the hinduism his ancestors have believed for a thousand years supposed to suddenly learn about jesus and jump on the bandwagon? or is it just a subtle way for you and your kind to convince yourselves white, anglo-saxon people are superior to everyone else due to god inserting his religion into our culture, but not indian or chinese culture?
You'll notice that it lists protestants and catholics and together they equal over 28 million. These figures may even be understated as Christians in China aren't exactly treated real kindly. Often times they are literally tortured and killed. How many practice Christian faith in absolute secrecy? Also, i'm not sure, but it seems they Chineese authorities may understate the number of Christians in China because they don't want the rest of the world to know they are actually there. 28 million may not seem like alot in a nation as populate as China. But it is significant when you consider it as a communist nation that is EXTREMELY hostile towards Christianity imparticular. If you do the research, i'm sure you will find similar statistics for most of the other regions you mention. The point is, there ARE Christians, a significant number of them, in fact, in the areas you list.
this is a bullshit cop out and you know it. god could have done whatever he damn well pleased. in your religion, he decided everyone would pay for the sins of adam and eve. he could simply have forgiven original sin and wiped the slate clean and let everyone sin and be forgiven on their own merits. instead, he made original sin stick to every human ever, said he'd make us all damned for the first humans' mistake. then it is OUR fault jesus had to die? is god not powerful enough to have forgiven original sin without that?
i am interpreting it right. im just saying it seems like a dick move to me. if god is all-powerful as christianity claims, he could make things easier for humans, he could forgive with a wave of his hand. but he chooses not to. that isn't love... it's legal technicalities.
.
Forgive with a wave of his hand? Sure he could. What for? Sounds like irresponsible parenting to me. Fact is, according to Christian faith, he basically DOES forgive that way. Again, the love i have for my children knows absolutely no conditions, and i forgive them all their wrongs. As a loving PARENT, however i would be doing them a fatal diservice if i did not teach them and require them to be responsible for their actions (a sincere appology and attempt by them to improve is always nice as well).
Look, i'll not get into a disrespectful pissing match with you over Christian theology, especially when i've established long ago that you have little understanding of even the most basic elements. Its productive to neither of us. Especially when i don't really care what you believe.
Now i have a sincere, respectful question for the staunch atheists here. Again, i am only seeking respectful dialogue, and am sincerely curious about this. The OP obviously intended this as a discussion on the merits of a theistic or non-theistic worldview in general. It quickly turned into a discussion on the merits of Christianity. Why is that? i've noticed in my day to day dealings with common folks, that you can mention God, Allah, Jehovah etc. in the prescence of atheists and get little to no response. Mention Jesus, however, and they freak out. What is it about the mention of Jesus, that seems to strike such a painful nerve that figures of other faiths do not? "Because Christians always try to push there faith" doesn'y really cut it, so i'll save you the trouble of offering that response. You all know as well as i do that that isn't really it. So, what is it?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Okay, I will use a more simple example of contradiction in the bible. David kills Goliath, and cuts off his head... God instills in him the power to do this. Why would God empower David to kill Goliath if he teaches that "Thou Shalt Not Kill"... and if you say that God didn't empower him to do so, but just allowed it, then why did God allow this story to be in the Bible, as it promotes something he created laws against? After all it is the inspired word of God is it not?
Here is another contradiction. Jesus preaches about forgiveness, but in the end days he will throw all of the non-believers into a lake of fire where they will experience an ETERNITY of TORTURE! Please explain.
This was not a good resource... The text is jumbled together into a narrow box and he didn't even use paragraphs. Having said that, I read every word. It really didn't explain anything I didn't already know about the story.
"All this while, twice a day, morning and evening, did the insulting champion appear in the field and repeat his challenge, his own heart growing more and more proud for his not being answered and the people of Israel more and more timorous, while God designed hereby to ripen him for destruction and to make Israel’s deliverance the more illustrious."
*NOTE FOR EVERYONE*
1. I spent 20 years living a "Jesus Camp" lifestyle... I've been to a Christian School, been to Thomas Road Baptist Church (Jerry Falwell's former congregation), and even taught bible studies... I suppose I will have to stay content being an agnostic... I don't think anyone will get me to follow a book like the bible so literally again.
2. One good thing I will say about the bible is that there are some good stories in it. However, you would be just as enlightened to read The Prophet, The Koran, or Siddhartha...
3. Humanity has derived better morals than what the bible teaches.
You'll notice that it lists protestants and catholics and together they equal over 28 million. These figures may even be understated as Christians in China aren't exactly treated real kindly. Often times they are literally tortured and killed. How many practice Christian faith in absolute secrecy? Also, i'm not sure, but it seems they Chineese authorities may understate the number of Christians in China because they don't want the rest of the world to know they are actually there. 28 million may not seem like alot in a nation as populate as China. But it is significant when you consider it as a communist nation that is EXTREMELY hostile towards Christianity imparticular. If you do the research, i'm sure you will find similar statistics for most of the other regions you mention. The point is, there ARE Christians, a significant number of them, in fact, in the areas you list.
Forgive with a wave of his hand? Sure he could. What for? Sounds like irresponsible parenting to me. Fact is, according to Christian faith, he basically DOES forgive that way. Again, the love i have for my children knows absolutely no conditions, and i forgive them all their wrongs. As a loving PARENT, however i would be doing them a fatal diservice if i did not teach them and require them to be responsible for their actions (a sincere appology and attempt by them to improve is always nice as well).
Look, i'll not get into a disrespectful pissing match with you over Christian theology, especially when i've established long ago that you have little understanding of even the most basic elements. Its productive to neither of us. Especially when i don't really care what you believe.
Now i have a sincere, respectful question for the staunch atheists here. Again, i am only seeking respectful dialogue, and am sincerely curious about this. The OP obviously intended this as a discussion on the merits of a theistic or non-theistic worldview in general. It quickly turned into a discussion on the merits of Christianity. Why is that? i've noticed in my day to day dealings with common folks, that you can mention God, Allah, Jehovah etc. in the prescence of atheists and get little to no response. Mention Jesus, however, and they freak out. What is it about the mention of Jesus, that seems to strike such a painful nerve that figures of other faiths do not? "Because Christians always try to push there faith" doesn'y really cut it, so i'll save you the trouble of offering that response. You all know as well as i do that that isn't really it. So, what is it?
and you're certain if you'd been raised in china under buddhism, you'd have up and converted becos it clearly made more sense and risked the death of your entire family and all your loved ones becos of those fables? i rather imagine it would be as easy for you to give up that faith as it is for you now to admit, consider, or even conceive of the notion that maybe christianity doesn't have a sole lock on truth. if you had been raised there, you'd be on this message board spouting off about how buddhism is the only way and everyone else is wrong.
you and i both know my grasp of christian theology is perfectly fine. we only differ in how we interpret that. you interpret it as a parent parenting children, i interpret it as a huge dictator throwing up hurdles and casting people into hell in the name of "love." i also note you say you forgive your children for all their wrongs... god does not according to deadnothingbetter (who im rather sure you do not agree with anymore than i do from our discussions in the past). god will not forgive his chinese children for staying with buddhism rather than converting to christianity according to him.
i am not an atheist, nor even an agnostic. i have a very strong and personal relationship with god that i do not feel the need to pollute with church, hokey ceremonies, or intermediaries. however, i can answer your question: becos the vast majority of people posting here live in countries where christianity dominates, which produces the reactionary disgust... it's annoyance at seeing a religion they strongly disagree with influencing their country's politics and actions. if these posters lived in iran, they'd be as pissed off about islam as they are about christianity (assuming they weren't killed for it). it's their touchstone, their most familiar religious contact.
This was not a good resource... The text is jumbled together into a narrow box and he didn't even use paragraphs. Having said that, I read every word. It really didn't explain anything I didn't already know about the story.
"All this while, twice a day, morning and evening, did the insulting champion appear in the field and repeat his challenge, his own heart growing more and more proud for his not being answered and the people of Israel more and more timorous, while God designed hereby to ripen him for destruction and to make Israel’s deliverance the more illustrious."
*NOTE FOR EVERYONE*
1. I spent 20 years living a "Jesus Camp" lifestyle... I've been to a Christian School, been to Thomas Road Baptist Church (Jerry Falwell's former congregation), and even taught bible studies... I suppose I will have to stay content being an agnostic... I don't think anyone will get me to follow a book like the bible so literally again.
2. One good thing I will say about the bible is that there are some good stories in it. However, you would be just as enlightened to read The Prophet, The Koran, or Siddhartha...
3. Humanity has derived better morals than what the bible teaches.
let me get this straight... god is NOT powerful enough to forgive a sin without jesus? he lacks that power? that's one rather limited god. he can create the world but cannot forgive any human unless that human worships jesus?
either god is limited, or he CHOSE that rule which he knew would condemn billions. and you try to tell me this is love?
God is powerful enough to do it, yes, he can. But he is also limited in not intervening in the choices we make. like for instance, not believing in him, or not believing that we're going down the wrong path.... so he respects us enough to allow us to believe that the things we choose are the right ones.
i wish he were a dictator, as you guys profess he is, then things would be strictly as he would want them and the world will be a happy place. i mean, think about it, if he's God he's powerful enough to change the desires in our hearts, and maybe if he were a dictator as you say, then he'll adjust my emotions and desires to be appeased by the actions he makes. so in that sense, yeah, it would be a perfect world then. even if all he wanted to do was burn us alive or torture us or whatever, he'd still be powerful enough to enstill a fixed desire to enjoy the torture or the burning. at least, that's what i get from your interpretations of god
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
You believe in an imaginary being who made the whole universe and everything in it (except dinosaurs because he never mentioned them to anybody), and I am the one who is "pretty out of it"? I guess I fail to see your logic.
yeah, you fail to use common sense.... you're generalizing the whole situation. i'm not forcing you to believe in what i believe. i don't think anybody has offended me as much as you.
Then why are you in this forum? A forum who's primary existance is exactly what you profess to not do?!
i'm on here to discuss meanwhile respecting other people's opinions AND beliefs...
Yes you do.
no, i don't.
Yes you do. By default as a believer and I as a non-believer, you think I will perish and that you will be saved.
by default, my beliefs are my beliefs. by default my beliefs don't apply to yours. by default you think less of me because of my own beliefs as you've made it perfectly clear in your prior posts and in your tone. if i believe that as a believer i shall be saved and you shall perish, it's simply a belief of my own which i do not instigate upon yours.
You claim that you know God exists and what is and is not to be taken literally as the word of God. You claim a lot of things.
no sir you're completely misunderstanding the situation. i claim to have faith. i don't claim to know for sure... but i claim to have faith. and i don't claim to know a lot of things, just a few, like for instance certain biblical interpretations... it doesn't mean i know it all tho.
I am not your friend
and you say i propogate hatred?!?
just as I am not a Jihadist's friend. I think your beliefs and the millions of others who share your beliefs contribute to a system that promotes war, genocide, racism, and bigotry. So one more time... Respect is earned not a ""God" given right" and I don't respect your beliefs.
ok, so don't respect my beliefs, but respect me for believing... as i respect you for believing, or not believing in whatever you want.
for one, i don't even participate in political agendas. i lean more towards democracy and believe in the freedom of every individual's rights. i don't propogate illegalizing gay marriages, abortion, or whatever cause i don't believe that it's any of my business. in fact, i don't think the church has any business in political affairs. i support tolerance and it should be the church's main message. unfortunately, it's not. and i'm sorry about that. but i am not what you say i am nor even give a hint of what you think it is i'm instigating.
Do you go to Church?
well, i haven't gone in awhile... but it also depends on what your definition of church is. if your definition of church is in the tradional sense, then no i don't go to church, meaning i am not up for fundamental religions or organized churches. but if you want to go on and speak about the biblical idealisms of the church, then by default, i am a part of the church, that is the body of christ. it has nothing to do with religion, no matter how you're going to put it.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
God is powerful enough to do it, yes, he can. But he is also limited in not intervening in the choices we make. like for instance, not believing in him, or not believing that we're going down the wrong path.... so he respects us enough to allow us to believe that the things we choose are the right ones.
i wish he were a dictator, as you guys profess he is, then things would be strictly as he would want them and the world will be a happy place. i mean, think about it, if he's God he's powerful enough to change the desires in our hearts, and maybe if he were a dictator as you say, then he'll adjust my emotions and desires to be appeased by the actions he makes. so in that sense, yeah, it would be a perfect world then. even if all he wanted to do was burn us alive or torture us or whatever, he'd still be powerful enough to enstill a fixed desire to enjoy the torture or the burning. at least, that's what i get from your interpretations of god
so he will respect our choices, he'll just never forgive them? funny how you can murder children and get into heaven as long as you're sorry and went to church and ask jesus for a pass, but if you're a devout jew who devoted his life to helping other people, you're fucked becos god simply cannot forgive that.
and you're certain if you'd been raised in china under buddhism, you'd have up and converted becos it clearly made more sense and risked the death of your entire family and all your loved ones becos of those fables? i rather imagine it would be as easy for you to give up that faith as it is for you now to admit, consider, or even conceive of the notion that maybe christianity doesn't have a sole lock on truth. if you had been raised there, you'd be on this message board spouting off about how buddhism is the only way and everyone else is wrong.
you and i both know my grasp of christian theology is perfectly fine. we only differ in how we interpret that. you interpret it as a parent parenting children, i interpret it as a huge dictator throwing up hurdles and casting people into hell in the name of "love." i also note you say you forgive your children for all their wrongs... god does not according to deadnothingbetter (who im rather sure you do not agree with anymore than i do from our discussions in the past). god will not forgive his chinese children for staying with buddhism rather than converting to christianity according to him.
i am not an atheist, nor even an agnostic. i have a very strong and personal relationship with god that i do not feel the need to pollute with church, hokey ceremonies, or intermediaries. however, i can answer your question: becos the vast majority of people posting here live in countries where christianity dominates, which produces the reactionary disgust... it's annoyance at seeing a religion they strongly disagree with influencing their country's politics and actions. if these posters lived in iran, they'd be as pissed off about islam as they are about christianity (assuming they weren't killed for it). it's their touchstone, their most familiar religious contact.
Look, man. i've already said i'm not going to fight with you. You had asked a question about people living in traditionaly non-Christian parts of the world, and i answered it. i illustrated how there is, in fact, an abundance of Christians in these parts of the world. More than 28 million CONFIRMED christians in a nation that likes to torture Christians, making examples of them before killing them is significant. Accept the fact that you lost that one. "no further questions, your honor".
As far as the other stuff, you're absolutely right. Your a regular seminary student. Your understanding of Christian faith is unparalleled. Have a good day.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
so he will respect our choices, he'll just never forgive them?
how's that of any relevance??? if we choose otherwise, yeah, let's say he'll forgive us, but where have your choices led you? is that to say taht if you were wrong and you were at the pits of hell you'll turn around and say, "oops, sorry God, please forgive me i believe, ok, now get me out."?
what i do know is that the bible speaks of dispensations.. right now, we're at the dispensation of grace.... like in the days of noah when he said a great flood would wipe 'em all out no one chose to believe, but once the water began to fall the gates of the ark closed and people began to plead that they would enter, but the fella's in the ark said,"sorry doods but if we open up the ark then we'll go out with you too. besides the door is locked and we can't get it open."
or like the parable of lazarus and the rich man... once they both died, lazarus cried out to Abraham and said, "can you get lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch the tip of my tongue?" abraham replied, "sorry dude, but you had your chances, besides there's this wall between us that neither one of us can cross."
point is, in biblical terms, the bible says that we're in a state of corruption and the only way to be cleansed is through christ. once the gates have been closed there's no way of crossing over cause of your state of corruption sin can't enter to the gates of heaven and the dispensation we're in would be over by then... no more Jesus for you or anybody. that's really the message of the bible.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
funny how you can murder children and get into heaven as long as you're sorry and went to church and ask jesus for a pass, but if you're a devout jew who devoted his life to helping other people, you're fucked becos god simply cannot forgive that.
i never murdered any children...
btw, if someone murdered a loved one of yours, is your love not strong enough to forgive them?
God's love is and so is His love strong enough to forgive a devout jew who devoted helping others, just so long as he realizes that is body is under a state of corruption and he needs to be cleansed by the blood of jesus.the same for the murderer, and for you and for me and for all of us here on the planet.
the point is, it's not about the do's and dont's.... not anymore. the laws of moses were there for that, but it was all unaccomplished 'cos God saw that nobody would be able to follow 'em. simply because their bodies were under a state of corruption... if God would be following humanity simply by our actions, he'd of wiped us out again like in the days of noah.
so now God said, "look, don't follow the do's and don'ts... Jesus will accomplish taht for you... once you believe in him righteoussness will be fulfilled in you." that's the law of the spirit, rather the law of moses.
therefore, David, when he prophetically is speaking he goes on to say, "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsil of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of the sinners nor sits in the seat of the scornful but his delight is in the Law of the Lord and in his Law does he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, his leaf also shall not wither and whatever he does shall prosper"
basically, if you believe in Christ and follow his words, then all amount of goodness shall be accomplished in your life. every step that you take will be graceful and righteous. or at least that's what the bible promises.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Comments
You are a philosophy major aren't you? Well said. I agree with everything you've said here, but I put GREAT EMPHASIS on your closing paragraph.
My faith or "spirituality" begins and ends here: humanity.
when adam sinned it's as if he passed it onto his children, and the children to their children... that's why romans says, "wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men." God's not so worried about sin alone... the only reason why he hates sin so much is because of what sin has caused to humanity. it's brought death. it wasn't God who intentionally made "sin stick to every human ever" it came with them. when i was born, i was born to a corrupted body; a body that is prone to get sick and die. so were you. at least, that's the message of the bible... you could argue against it all you want, but it's really not going to get you anywhere. and neither for me.
you say that God is powerful enough to get rid of sin if he wanted to, well, no, not really. God has never interfered with our choices, as i've said many times. since he placed a will in us to make our own decisions it's as if God's glory is perfected in our lives when we choose life, or the life that Christ came to show us. and basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden... or so it goes.
read above
what do you mean?
now this one, this one is comical.... but sorry it's got to end this way. i love you but i'm too tired to explain.
I know I am naturally wired to experience it. I have a natural intuition in the "inner worlds". In terms of personality types, I know lot of people who are so inclined as well. Unfortunately, many people I know as so inclined are entranced by sensory stimulus with vices, etc. and numb themselves to this predisposition, rather than hone it.
I literally cannot describe the no-thing spiritual experiences I've had, except with metaphors that are sadly lacking, such as by talking in terms of "Light", or saying "it's LIKE God came from the heavens and talked to me."
The reason I continue to do what I can to hone these experiences are not only because they are stunning, but because when I open to channel this "no-thing" energy, it allows me to feel amazing energy pass through me in my mundane life, through debating, creating, or whatever. To in-form one's life with the "no-thing" is amazing. And the reason it feels so good, is because it is our base nature. We naturally gravitate towards joy and deep all-encompassing unconditional Love, as it's what we stem from.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Thanks. We all lose touch with "reality" with our stupid ideas, beliefs and ridiculous justifications all the time. The problem is we're too egotistical and caught up in our "scripts" that we don't see it.
Whatever level of development we are at--whatever worldview we see through--we each have our own way that our spiritual capacity informs our lives.
Why don't I see you around myspace anymore?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
You believe in an imaginary being who made the whole universe and everything in it (except dinosaurs because he never mentioned them to anybody), and I am the one who is "pretty out of it"? I guess I fail to see your logic.
Then why are you in this forum? A forum who's primary existance is exactly what you profess to not do?!
Yes you do.
Yes you do. By default as a believer and I as a non-believer, you think I will perish and that you will be saved.
You claim that you know God exists and what is and is not to be taken literally as the word of God. You claim a lot of things.
I am not your friend just as I am not a Jihadist's friend. I think your beliefs and the millions of others who share your beliefs contribute to a system that promotes war, genocide, racism, and bigotry. So one more time... Respect is earned not a ""God" given right" and I don't respect your beliefs.
Do you go to Church?
let me get this straight... god is NOT powerful enough to forgive a sin without jesus? he lacks that power? that's one rather limited god. he can create the world but cannot forgive any human unless that human worships jesus?
either god is limited, or he CHOSE that rule which he knew would condemn billions. and you try to tell me this is love?
It is love. Conditional love.
naděje umírá poslední
and everyone alse is just my mere peasant
you cant be because
1. that joke was shit and
2. well, i don't need a 2 because number 1 was so great
:cool:
William Wallace called. He said Fook Yar Moom;)
A lot of people are calling me today. Hmmm.....
Anyway, lick my nuts. Good talk.
Why would you start was has no end?
John Merrick called. He said "good day shir, can Cory give me my face back"
and Lou called asking if he could keep your rectum platercast for another week or so...
i get lots of calls to... mostly from lonely women who moan a lot
Oh no you fookin' di'nt...
I'm not sure if I'm typing in the correct Scottish accent.;) Anyway, I was going to ramble on about you sucking the balls and fucking yourself and whatnot. You know, standard procedure.
You have a grrrreat fookin daaay:)
And yes, tell Lou to keep that casmplast mold.
Why would you start was has no end?
nah yer accent is shite, but nice try ya glaikit bampot
you have a great day too amigo. i'm off home to randomly grope my wife
Forgive with a wave of his hand? Sure he could. What for? Sounds like irresponsible parenting to me. Fact is, according to Christian faith, he basically DOES forgive that way. Again, the love i have for my children knows absolutely no conditions, and i forgive them all their wrongs. As a loving PARENT, however i would be doing them a fatal diservice if i did not teach them and require them to be responsible for their actions (a sincere appology and attempt by them to improve is always nice as well).
Look, i'll not get into a disrespectful pissing match with you over Christian theology, especially when i've established long ago that you have little understanding of even the most basic elements. Its productive to neither of us. Especially when i don't really care what you believe.
Now i have a sincere, respectful question for the staunch atheists here. Again, i am only seeking respectful dialogue, and am sincerely curious about this. The OP obviously intended this as a discussion on the merits of a theistic or non-theistic worldview in general. It quickly turned into a discussion on the merits of Christianity. Why is that? i've noticed in my day to day dealings with common folks, that you can mention God, Allah, Jehovah etc. in the prescence of atheists and get little to no response. Mention Jesus, however, and they freak out. What is it about the mention of Jesus, that seems to strike such a painful nerve that figures of other faiths do not? "Because Christians always try to push there faith" doesn'y really cut it, so i'll save you the trouble of offering that response. You all know as well as i do that that isn't really it. So, what is it?
here's a good commentary on David V Goliath http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=1sa&chapter=017
No time anymore... I am a full time union organizer now... and I do community activism when I can... So I have a full plate... I am trying.
Peace.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
This was not a good resource... The text is jumbled together into a narrow box and he didn't even use paragraphs. Having said that, I read every word. It really didn't explain anything I didn't already know about the story.
"All this while, twice a day, morning and evening, did the insulting champion appear in the field and repeat his challenge, his own heart growing more and more proud for his not being answered and the people of Israel more and more timorous, while God designed hereby to ripen him for destruction and to make Israel’s deliverance the more illustrious."
*NOTE FOR EVERYONE*
1. I spent 20 years living a "Jesus Camp" lifestyle... I've been to a Christian School, been to Thomas Road Baptist Church (Jerry Falwell's former congregation), and even taught bible studies... I suppose I will have to stay content being an agnostic... I don't think anyone will get me to follow a book like the bible so literally again.
2. One good thing I will say about the bible is that there are some good stories in it. However, you would be just as enlightened to read The Prophet, The Koran, or Siddhartha...
3. Humanity has derived better morals than what the bible teaches.
~
I would say it this way: Humanity has derived better morals than many a Bible teacher.
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and you're certain if you'd been raised in china under buddhism, you'd have up and converted becos it clearly made more sense and risked the death of your entire family and all your loved ones becos of those fables? i rather imagine it would be as easy for you to give up that faith as it is for you now to admit, consider, or even conceive of the notion that maybe christianity doesn't have a sole lock on truth. if you had been raised there, you'd be on this message board spouting off about how buddhism is the only way and everyone else is wrong.
you and i both know my grasp of christian theology is perfectly fine. we only differ in how we interpret that. you interpret it as a parent parenting children, i interpret it as a huge dictator throwing up hurdles and casting people into hell in the name of "love." i also note you say you forgive your children for all their wrongs... god does not according to deadnothingbetter (who im rather sure you do not agree with anymore than i do from our discussions in the past). god will not forgive his chinese children for staying with buddhism rather than converting to christianity according to him.
i am not an atheist, nor even an agnostic. i have a very strong and personal relationship with god that i do not feel the need to pollute with church, hokey ceremonies, or intermediaries. however, i can answer your question: becos the vast majority of people posting here live in countries where christianity dominates, which produces the reactionary disgust... it's annoyance at seeing a religion they strongly disagree with influencing their country's politics and actions. if these posters lived in iran, they'd be as pissed off about islam as they are about christianity (assuming they weren't killed for it). it's their touchstone, their most familiar religious contact.
1. if i was exposed to Jerry Falwell's version of things I'm sure I'd be bitter too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8zqrBolJnA
2. You're right, you can get good points from other books
3. How did humanity arrive at those morals?
i wish he were a dictator, as you guys profess he is, then things would be strictly as he would want them and the world will be a happy place. i mean, think about it, if he's God he's powerful enough to change the desires in our hearts, and maybe if he were a dictator as you say, then he'll adjust my emotions and desires to be appeased by the actions he makes. so in that sense, yeah, it would be a perfect world then. even if all he wanted to do was burn us alive or torture us or whatever, he'd still be powerful enough to enstill a fixed desire to enjoy the torture or the burning. at least, that's what i get from your interpretations of god
Through humanity.
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through genetics? through evolution? what way through humanity...is it just ingrained?
i'm on here to discuss meanwhile respecting other people's opinions AND beliefs...
no, i don't.
by default, my beliefs are my beliefs. by default my beliefs don't apply to yours. by default you think less of me because of my own beliefs as you've made it perfectly clear in your prior posts and in your tone. if i believe that as a believer i shall be saved and you shall perish, it's simply a belief of my own which i do not instigate upon yours.
no sir you're completely misunderstanding the situation. i claim to have faith. i don't claim to know for sure... but i claim to have faith. and i don't claim to know a lot of things, just a few, like for instance certain biblical interpretations... it doesn't mean i know it all tho.
and you say i propogate hatred?!?
ok, so don't respect my beliefs, but respect me for believing... as i respect you for believing, or not believing in whatever you want.
for one, i don't even participate in political agendas. i lean more towards democracy and believe in the freedom of every individual's rights. i don't propogate illegalizing gay marriages, abortion, or whatever cause i don't believe that it's any of my business. in fact, i don't think the church has any business in political affairs. i support tolerance and it should be the church's main message. unfortunately, it's not. and i'm sorry about that. but i am not what you say i am nor even give a hint of what you think it is i'm instigating.
well, i haven't gone in awhile... but it also depends on what your definition of church is. if your definition of church is in the tradional sense, then no i don't go to church, meaning i am not up for fundamental religions or organized churches. but if you want to go on and speak about the biblical idealisms of the church, then by default, i am a part of the church, that is the body of christ. it has nothing to do with religion, no matter how you're going to put it.
so he will respect our choices, he'll just never forgive them? funny how you can murder children and get into heaven as long as you're sorry and went to church and ask jesus for a pass, but if you're a devout jew who devoted his life to helping other people, you're fucked becos god simply cannot forgive that.
Look, man. i've already said i'm not going to fight with you. You had asked a question about people living in traditionaly non-Christian parts of the world, and i answered it. i illustrated how there is, in fact, an abundance of Christians in these parts of the world. More than 28 million CONFIRMED christians in a nation that likes to torture Christians, making examples of them before killing them is significant. Accept the fact that you lost that one. "no further questions, your honor".
As far as the other stuff, you're absolutely right. Your a regular seminary student. Your understanding of Christian faith is unparalleled. Have a good day.
what i do know is that the bible speaks of dispensations.. right now, we're at the dispensation of grace.... like in the days of noah when he said a great flood would wipe 'em all out no one chose to believe, but once the water began to fall the gates of the ark closed and people began to plead that they would enter, but the fella's in the ark said,"sorry doods but if we open up the ark then we'll go out with you too. besides the door is locked and we can't get it open."
or like the parable of lazarus and the rich man... once they both died, lazarus cried out to Abraham and said, "can you get lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch the tip of my tongue?" abraham replied, "sorry dude, but you had your chances, besides there's this wall between us that neither one of us can cross."
point is, in biblical terms, the bible says that we're in a state of corruption and the only way to be cleansed is through christ. once the gates have been closed there's no way of crossing over cause of your state of corruption sin can't enter to the gates of heaven and the dispensation we're in would be over by then... no more Jesus for you or anybody. that's really the message of the bible.
btw, if someone murdered a loved one of yours, is your love not strong enough to forgive them?
God's love is and so is His love strong enough to forgive a devout jew who devoted helping others, just so long as he realizes that is body is under a state of corruption and he needs to be cleansed by the blood of jesus.the same for the murderer, and for you and for me and for all of us here on the planet.
the point is, it's not about the do's and dont's.... not anymore. the laws of moses were there for that, but it was all unaccomplished 'cos God saw that nobody would be able to follow 'em. simply because their bodies were under a state of corruption... if God would be following humanity simply by our actions, he'd of wiped us out again like in the days of noah.
so now God said, "look, don't follow the do's and don'ts... Jesus will accomplish taht for you... once you believe in him righteoussness will be fulfilled in you." that's the law of the spirit, rather the law of moses.
therefore, David, when he prophetically is speaking he goes on to say, "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsil of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of the sinners nor sits in the seat of the scornful but his delight is in the Law of the Lord and in his Law does he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, his leaf also shall not wither and whatever he does shall prosper"
basically, if you believe in Christ and follow his words, then all amount of goodness shall be accomplished in your life. every step that you take will be graceful and righteous. or at least that's what the bible promises.