ANOTHER High School shooting

hippiemom

miller8966 wrote:

DUnkman and push' arguments are severly flawed...no reason to argue with illogical people

Well there you have it, folks .... our resident philosopher genius has spoken, I guess we can all move along now.

dunkman

reborncareerist wrote:

This suggests that the story is deeper than just more laws, no?

and thats maybe so... but gun control is an experiment worth trying... just to see if its the gun laws or not

if it saves even one kids life then i'm all the happier for that

rebornFixer

dunkman1974 wrote:

and thats maybe so... but gun control is an experiment worth trying... just to see if its the gun laws or not

if it saves even one kids life then i'm all the happier for that

Some guns, like safe storage, do work to save lives. Others do not. I don't know about the U.S., but here, making laws more restrictive doesn't do anything. In fact, handgun murders in cities like Toronto have soared since our rifle/shotgun registry was implemented (yes, exactly ... Registering hunting rifles isn't going to affect deaths by illegal handgun. Someone tell our Liberal party politicians the news).

aNiMaL

dunkman1974 wrote:

imagine if we all had access to a nuclear weapon.. and one day some mental fucker used his and blew up Iceland (sorry Iceland.. random!!) of course it would be the mentalists fault he killed all those people... now imagine the same scenario where no-one has access to a nuclear weapon... one day a mental fucker blews up nothing... he's still a mental fucker but all he days now is wank all day and stick penguins up his arse..

take away the gun and you still have a mad mental dude... but he might only kill himself or a dog or something... i doubt he would attack a whole school using a water pistol... not really the same carnage is it!

You are comparing WMD with hand guns or shot guns. Completely different...and in this country, that is why we have restrictions on what arms you can bear.

This mental fucker could have stormed in using baseball bats and still taken the girls hostage and still sexuall assulted them....and still killed them.

Now, don't get me wrong....if guns never existed at all....then there would be no need for them. However, it is much too late for that. You outlaw guns now, and only the outlaws would have them. What have we solved? Nothing.

But even if they never existed, it is man kinds way to create tools to ease our lives and we would have eventually created them. So, they are here to stay. Like or hate them.

I am all for our right to bear arms. I like to shoot guns at target practice up in the woods with a few friends. Good damn times to be had by all!! However, I do not own a gun (not against it, just never have)...nor do i feel like I have ever "needed" a gun.

callen

reborncareerist wrote:

Maybe so, but I have stats that show that restrictive gun laws don't work, at least here.
This suggests that the story is deeper than just more laws, no?

I wanna see stats on how in America we restricted gun ownership and the level of violence didn't go down. You said "here" so I'm assuming you mean the US..not some very small geographical area..like NYC.

Ban all handguns...give everyone 6 mos to turn them in...even reimburse folks certain amount....then after that if your caught with a handgun its a felony with mandatory 5 years in jail. Problem solved. Think crime wouldn't start trending down??? Will take a while..no doubt...but will work.

rebornFixer

callen wrote:

I wanna see stats on how in America we restricted gun ownership and the level of violence didn't go down. You said "here" so I'm assuming you mean the US..not some very small geographical area..like NYC.

Ban all handguns...give everyone 6 mos to turn them in...even reimburse folks certain amount....then after that if your caught with a handgun its a felony with mandatory 5 years in jail. Problem solved. Think crime wouldn't start trending down??? Will take a while..no doubt...but will work.

You're just saying the same thing everyone else is saying. More laws = fewer murders. Prove it, its not too much to ask!
By "here", I meant Canada, and I've already posted a link to the relevent stats.

dunkman

miller8966 wrote:

DUnkman and push' arguments are severly flawed...no reason to argue with illogical people

really.... and what have you had to say in this entire thread

miller8966 wrote:

hmmm u mean bill clinton?

miller8966 wrote:

O so its jsut americas fault...ok i see the logic

miller8966 wrote:

Its not the guns fault you moron. THe gun didnt tell him to shoot kids

miller8966 wrote:

Explain to me how it is the guns fault? dont listen to everything micahel moore tells you

miller8966 wrote:

Im not gona lie man i love guns. I own an Ak 47 ( semi) and a winchester rifle, and also an AR 15. What a beauty!

funny....i havent shotten up a school yet...hmmmm

miller8966 wrote:

Great post...mayeb we should outlaw freedom of speech just in case someone says somethign offensive

miller8966 wrote:

according to dunkman when we get rid of guns we will have no one dying.....because you know before the invention fo the gun no one ever died.

Lol thank god in america we are allowed to keep our guns!

now unless you want to contribute something worthwhile get the fuck out of the thread and join the 15 year olds on the "what was Eddies best haircut" thread on the Porch

3 poor posts of inept sarcasm and thats about it... I've defecated better 'arguments' than you have posted on this thread...

callen

aNiMaL wrote:

You are comparing WMD with hand guns or shot guns. Completely different...and in this country, that is why we have restrictions on what arms you can bear..

We don't have restrictions on arms....hand guns or shotguns...the more the better...sarcasm here by the way.

aNiMaL wrote:

This mental fucker could have stormed in using baseball bats and still taken the girls hostage and still sexuall assulted them....and still killed them...

yea..right....the kids would have started running..and using this specific case..he wouldn't have had the time to do what he planned without a gun and the police would have stopped him as soon as they arrived.

aNiMaL wrote:

Now, don't get me wrong....if guns never existed at all....then there would be no need for them. However, it is much too late for that. You outlaw guns now, and only the outlaws would have them. What have we solved? Nothing.

This is such a week argument.....we have to start sometime...obviously with our murder rate...we need to do something different. This is the same scare tactic the Bush boys use...hmmm coincidence..think not..why are soo many people so freakin scared...

aNiMaL wrote:

But even if they never existed, it is man kinds way to create tools to ease our lives and we would have eventually created them. So, they are here to stay. Like or hate them..

Seems like other western country's don't have this problem.....and guns have been introduced to all country's...difference...its legal here.

aNiMaL wrote:

I am all for our right to bear arms. I like to shoot guns at target practice up in the woods with a few friends. Good damn times to be had by all!! However, I do not own a gun (not against it, just never have)...nor do i feel like I have ever "needed" a gun.

Shooting guns is boring as shit...can think of a million things that are more fun and exciting....and the death that guns bring our society, loosing this recreational aspect of guns is a small price to pay to get rid of them.

rebornFixer

callen wrote:

Shooting guns is boring as shit...can think of a million things that are more fun and exciting....and the death that guns bring our society is a small price to pay to get rid of them.

What's one of your hobbies? Chances are, someone else will think its boring as shit.

Ahnimus

aNiMaL wrote:

Damn, when will this senseless violence stop in our schools???

Probably when war stops. You see, war causes domestic unrest. If you study up on many of the mass murderers in history, they were mostly all during war-times.

Is this guy a muslim or an arab for the sake of the running terrorist theme?

rebornFixer

Ahnimus wrote:

Probably when war stops. You see, war causes domestic unrest. If you study up on many of the mass murderers in history, they were mostly all during war-times.

Is this guy a muslim or an arab for the sake of the running terrorist theme?

Nah, he's probably a Jew, right Ahnimus?

callen

reborncareerist wrote:

You're just saying the same thing everyone else is saying. More laws = fewer murders. Prove it, its not too much to ask!
By "here", I meant Canada, and I've already posted a link to the relevent stats.

..and I didn't read this entire thread...thats why I put in my post I'm assuming you meant the US....

now on me providing stats or facts...don't have them...but using simple logic....outlaw handguns (yes I said handguns) the number of guns and murders will go down...as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Course with the gun lobby...and all the scared white people in the US and I'm guessing from your post Canada..it will never happen. Too bad...too bad for all those thousands that will die.

chopitdown

callen wrote:

..and I didn't read this entire thread...thats why I put in my post I'm assuming you meant the US....

now on me providing stats or facts...don't have them...but using simple logic....outlaw handguns (yes I said handguns) the number of guns and murders will go down...as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Course with the gun lobby...and all the scared white people in the US and I'm guessing from your post Canada..it will never happen. Too bad...too bad for all those thousands that will die.

if you outlaw handguns, law abiding citizens will no longer have handguns. Criminals who have no respect for the law won't hand in the handguns...handguns won't magically disappear if you outlaw them. Banning handguns is just a band-aid solution for a deeper problem.

callen

reborncareerist wrote:

What's one of your hobbies? Chances are, someone else will think its boring as shit.

no boubt about it...but my hobbies don't kill people...and the little pleasure some people get from guns as a hobby isn't worth it. I like machinery..and guns are finely machined tools and I appreciate the craftmanship and history of guns...but unfortunately..people can't handle them...sad but true. And I shouldn't have added the shooting guns is boring part..that was bad on me..as its not relevant. Just venting I guess....live in Texas ..and have freinds that like guns...and get into it some times.

dunkman

reborncareerist wrote:

You're just saying the same thing everyone else is saying. More laws = fewer murders. Prove it, its not too much to ask!

ok.. Scotland 1994 - present day.. more laws on guns, the banning of ALL handguns has resulted in gun related deaths falling by over 50%

Australia

February, 2000
Sharp Drop in Gun Crime Follows Tough Australian Firearm Laws

Latest official data from Australia shows a marked reduction in gun-related crime and injury following recent restrictions on the private ownership of firearms.

Twelve days after 35 people were shot dead by a single gunman in Tasmania, Australia's state and federal governments agreed to enact wide-ranging new gun control laws to curb firearm-related death and injury. Between July 1996 and August 1998, the new restrictions were brought into force. Since that time, key indicators for gun-related death and crime have shown encouraging results.

Firearm-Related Homicide

"There was a decrease of almost 30% in the number of homicides by firearms from 1997 to 1998."

-- Australian Crime - Facts and Figures 1999. Australian Institute of Criminology. Canberra, Oct 1999

This report shows that as gun ownership has been progressively restricted since 1915, Australia's firearm homicide rate per 100,000 population has declined to almost half its 85-year average.


elsewhere:-

Other Countries

Similar reductions in gun death and injury have been noted in several countries whose gun controls have been recently tightened.

In Canada, where new gun laws were introduced in 1991 and 1995, the number of gun deaths has reached a 30-year low.

Two years ago in the United Kingdom, civilian handguns were banned, bought back from their owners and destroyed. In the year following the law change, Scotland recorded a 17% drop in all firearm-related offences. The British Home Office reports that in the nine months following the handgun ban, firearm-related offences in England and Wales dropped by 13%.

A British citizen is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American.

Ahnimus

callen wrote:

..and I didn't read this entire thread...thats why I put in my post I'm assuming you meant the US....

now on me providing stats or facts...don't have them...but using simple logic....outlaw handguns (yes I said handguns) the number of guns and murders will go down...as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Course with the gun lobby...and all the scared white people in the US and I'm guessing from your post Canada..it will never happen. Too bad...too bad for all those thousands that will die.

Handguns are banned in Canada as far as I know we can only own rifles for hunting. Yet, there are plenty of handgun murders, a guy was seen just last week running down the street with a handgun chasing someone.

Truth is, if the guy he was chasing had a gun aswell, it'd be a different story.

If a guy walks into a bank with a handgun and says "this is a stick-up" everyone cowers in fear. If everyone in the bank also had a handgun, they'd shoot the fucker in the face and continue on with their lives. But my guess is, he would never even try to rob a bank or a store, knowing that he might also be shot, knowing he has no advantage.

hippiemom

Come on, guys ... I'm not for a total ban on guns, but you have to admit that the Europeans have a point here.

Could this guy have stormed into the room with a baseball bat? Sure. Is it likely that 30 healthy teenagers could be easily subdued by one guy with a bat? No. They'd have likely overpowered him and bashed his head in.

You're also ignoring that guns make things so easy. Stabbing someone to death is a very personal act ... you need to get right up in their face, there's likely to be a struggle, you have to be strong. Same thing with bludgeoning someone to death. A guy like this likely doesn't have the balls for that sort of thing. He can be a tough guy with a gun in his hand because he doesn't even have to come into physical contact with his victims. If they make one threatening move, bang, they're dead. So yeah, theoretically he could stab them to death, but as a practical matter he'd never do it.

Another thing to consider is that there aren't a lot of accidental knifings. Gang members and drug dealers are always going to kill each other, but without guns at least they wouldn't accidentally kill some kid riding past on his bike while they're doing it.

Having said all that, I don't think it's possible to ban guns in the U.S. First, there's the constitution to be dealt with, and repealing the second amendment is simply not going to happen. Second, there are just too many of them out there, millions and millions. If you ban them, all the law-abiding citizens will turn in their guns and then we'll have a heavily armed criminal class (who obviously would NOT turn in their guns) that knows almost no one will be able to defend themselves.

I do support tightened restrictions and waiting periods. Dunky, you asked earlier if it was possible that the guy could have just bought the gun this morning. I don't know what the laws are in Colorado, but in Ohio he certainly could have. All that's required is for the gun dealer to call the FBI for a quick background check, which you will pass as long as you're not a felon and don't have a psychiatric history. You can be out the door with guns and ammo in about 10 minutes.

dunkman

chopitdown wrote:

if you outlaw handguns, law abiding citizens will no longer have handguns. Criminals who have no respect for the law won't hand in the handguns...handguns won't magically disappear if you outlaw them. Banning handguns is just a band-aid solution for a deeper problem.

now this isnt ideal, but 75% of all gun victims have some form of criminal background.... basically they shoot each other, which isnt great obviously but, well, you know

callen

chopitdown wrote:

if you outlaw handguns, law abiding citizens will no longer have handguns. Criminals who have no respect for the law won't hand in the handguns...handguns won't magically disappear if you outlaw them. Banning handguns is just a band-aid solution for a deeper problem.

deeper problem...but unfortunately the deeper problem is there will always be sorry ass humans that can't handle guns..and unless you eliminate all people that deeper problem will not be solved....if we outlaw guns...restrict import..make it a felony to own one...there will be less handguns...and yes it will take a while...but murder rates will go down.

I had this argument with one of my progun freinds...and afterwards..he said to me...you know..theres an angle you didn't even mention......"if the criminal thinks you might have a gun..he'll just shoot you..not giving you the opportunity to fire back...but if he knows you don't have a gun then he'll get what he wants and take off" ..I worked retail in a store at the time..that stayed open late...and the relevance of this was if a robber comes in with a gun...and the store clerk has a gun..someone will die....if though only the robber has a gun...probably not.

chopitdown

dunkman1974 wrote:

now this isnt ideal, but 75% of all gun victims have some form of criminal background.... basically they shoot each other, which isnt great obviously but, well, you know

it's not great, but... i'll agree with where you're heading.