ANOTHER High School shooting

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'd like to know where you are getting your information from. The information I cited before puts the annual figure around 12 deaths per year due to firearms.

    Here is a source that says 15,000

    2000 FBI Crime Index figures: There were an estimated 15,517 murders in 2000, virtually no change from the 1999 murder estimate of 15,522. The number of murders was 21 percent less than in 1996 and 37.2 percent less than in 1991. more...
    http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html

    According to the CIA World Fact Book the United States is ranked 107 for most deaths per year, it doesn't specify the cause.
    https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2066rank.html
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'd like to know where you are getting your information from. The information I cited before puts the annual figure around 12 deaths per year due to firearms.

    12 due to firearms yes.... i was quoting the Scotland.gov figures of actual deaths... murders, homicides... even those deaths with a spatula for instance.. which means i need to change my figures.. thanks!!!

    maths was never a strong point :D
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Here is a source that says 15,000

    2000 FBI Crime Index figures: There were an estimated 15,517 murders in 2000, virtually no change from the 1999 murder estimate of 15,522. The number of murders was 21 percent less than in 1996 and 37.2 percent less than in 1991. more...
    http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html

    According to the CIA World Fact Book the United States is ranked 107 for most deaths per year, it doesn't specify the cause.
    https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2066rank.html

    i got the 15000 from that very same source

    although http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_States states that "Currently, 30,000 plus people in the USA are killed each year with guns and some multiple of this number are injured with guns. [WISQARS, Injury Mortality Reports, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control] Over half of all firearm fatalities are intentional suicides. [16] [17] Yet, as pointed out by gun rights advocates, "While 69 men per 100,000 die of gun shots in DC every year, the number of female fatalities is so small that it's not even listed in the latest Kaiser health statistics report. Obviously, something more than guns are involved in these deaths"
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    callen wrote:
    ..thats even worse...

    silly point you make.....its easier for a punk pull a trigger than stab or beat you...that would take courage..and punks don't have courage...hence deaths would go down big time if we pulled the guns out of your cold dead hands. (-:

    Swing and a miss. The point I was responding to was that being shot was a "horribly violent" way to die. I don't disagree that it is a violent way to die. But there are more horribly violent ways to go. I didn't dispute that punks who couldn't beat me to death could shoot me to death. I don't disagree your point. Seems pretty self-evident.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Here is a source that says 15,000

    2000 FBI Crime Index figures: There were an estimated 15,517 murders in 2000, virtually no change from the 1999 murder estimate of 15,522. The number of murders was 21 percent less than in 1996 and 37.2 percent less than in 1991. more...
    http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html

    According to the CIA World Fact Book the United States is ranked 107 for most deaths per year, it doesn't specify the cause.
    https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2066rank.html

    So, according to the CIA figure of 8.5 deaths per 1000 people, that's 2550000 deaths per year in the United States, from various causes of course.

    Even if 1500 are from guns, that is a very small fraction
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    but you see... i'm fine with that.. i'm fine with the fact that someone else has picked up a hammer and smashed someones head in...

    i've said all along in threads like this, that my main concern is kids under 14 years of age are being systematically murdered by the misuse of handguns...

    the murder rate as a result of the banning of handguns in scotland has halved.... murder rates dropped from a 1996 total of 134 to a low of 93 in 1998...

    have you not noticed how low these fugures are yet either.. we have a pop. of 5.2 million and yet we only have 134 murders in one year.... thats 1 dead person for every 38805 alive people... the US has a pop. of 300million and has on average 15,000 murders per year.. thats 1 dead person for 20000 alive people

    twice as likely to be murdered in america


    i fucked up in my figures.. these ones are right !!

    have you not noticed how low these fugures are yet either.. we have a pop. of 5.2 million and yet we only have 12 gun related murders a year.... thats 1 dead person for every 43333 alive people... the US has a pop. of 300million and has on average 30,000 murders per year.. thats 1 dead person for 10000 alive people


    so in actual fact i'm 4 times more likely to be killed by a gun in the states than here.... :cool: thats 'awesome'... now myspace problems aside, the only thing we have done "differently" is gun control?
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    12 due to firearms yes.... i was quoting the Scotland.gov figures of actual deaths... murders, homicides... even those deaths with a spatula for instance.. which means i need to change my figures.. thanks!!!

    maths was never a strong point :D

    Ok, so 12 out of 2,550,000 deaths annually in the United States are caused by firearms, not including suicides.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    i fucked up in my figures

    have you not noticed how low these fugures are yet either.. we have a pop. of 5.2 million and yet we only have 12 gun related murders a year.... thats 1 dead person for every 43333 alive people... the US has a pop. of 300million and has on average 30,000 murders per year.. thats 1 dead person for 10000 alive people


    so in actual fact i'm 4 times more likely to be killed by a gun in the states than here.... :cool: thats 'awesome'... now myspace problems aside, the only thing we have done "differently" is gun control?

    You may be four times more likely in the united states. That's the difference between a 0.001% chance and a 0.004% chance. I feel it's still a relatively small chance. It's larger in developing countries not because of gun laws but because of their society.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Ahnimus wrote:
    It's larger in developing countries not because of gun laws but because of their society.

    but the US is the only country with frivolous gun laws

    in a study of the worlds 26 most developed nations this was the result:-

    "The homicide rate for children in the United States was five times higher than that for children in the other 25 countries combined (2.57 per 100,000 compared with 0.51) "

    thats 5 times higher than the other 25 countries COMBINED... the other 25 countries all have strong regulated handguin laws.... and the US doesnt... cant you see the pattern :confused:
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Ahnimus wrote:
    You may be four times more likely in the united states. That's the difference between a 0.001% chance and a 0.004% chance. I feel it's still a relatively small chance. It's larger in developing countries not because of gun laws but because of their society.

    of course its a small chance... in a population of 300million, 30k are murdered by guns.. thats good odds that you might never face a gun... especially if you are white and live in rural Wisconsin, its a whole different set of stats if you're black aged 18-35 and live in inner city Washington DC.. but thats a whole other thread :)
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • Are people STILL misusing stats in this thread? Good grief already. None of these figures are actually getting at the point.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    but the US is the only country with frivolous gun laws

    in a study of the worlds 26 most developed nations this was the result:-

    "The homicide rate for children in the United States was five times higher than that for children in the other 25 countries combined (2.57 per 100,000 compared with 0.51) "

    thats 5 times higher than the other 25 countries COMBINED... the other 25 countries all have strong regulated handguin laws.... and the US doesnt... cant you see the pattern :confused:

    I see the pattern, but I argue, when you are dealing with very small fractions and percentages, the difference looks big under certain microscopes.

    For example, a 0.01% chance is ten times greater than a 0.001% chance. But the likely hood is still 1 in 1000. Your chances of being killed by a lamp or falling down stairs is greater than that.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • wow.. for someone with Ghandi's quote as a signature isnt the irony of your pro-gun stance hitting you yet?

    guns = manufactured solely for the killing of mammals, i.e. humans

    knives = designed purely as a functional tool for hunting, cooking, cleaning, etc

    hands = designed by the man who invented monkeys, historical acquisition

    cars = designed to get us from one place to another pretty much quicker than the mode of transport that it supercedes


    out of all of the above inventions/genetics... only the gun was designed with the sole use of killing humans... thats why its a pretty juvenile retort of saying "people get killed by cars, should we ban cars????" that kind of argument doesnt make sense as cars werent designed for this purpose...



    also people dont get killed by cars if we follow the mantra of the NRA... its "cars dont kill people, people kill people"... :rolleyes:

    "arsenic laced toast doesnt kill people, people kill people"

    stupid argument isnt it?

    First, i did not take a pro-gun stance in any post...in fact i do not like guns and wish they were never evented! But, they were! I did comment I would protect my family IF NECESSARY (i'm human) with a gun but not shoot to kill...did you some how miss that? Additionally, many things kill humans and other forms of life, including fishing rods, traps, and bow and arrows, and they were invented for that sole purpose. You get no argument out of me that something needs to be done but taking away guns from private law-abiding citizens is only giving criminals a free ticket. More stringent purchasing regulations is a thought but in NO WAY is enough. The bigger message is that a gun law is a treatment and society needs much more than a bandaid on the problem. We need to stop saying take away guns and turning our heads to the real problem...the real problem is we have messed up individuals, not just pissed off, in our society that need help. I believe prevention is key! We need to step up and take responsibility for today's youth...as adults we need to be better role models and hold higher standards. We need to love our children, as well as those who do not receive love from their own parents. We need to teach them peace in a world full of hate. That's where we need to start! People don't shoot people just because there is a gun in their home...they kill people by whatever means because of a much deeper issue. As far as Ghandi, a truly amazing example of love of mankind...i wish i could be so disciplined. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all were?
    you must be the change you want to see in the world ~ Mahatma Gandhi
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    FreeMind wrote:
    First, i did not take a pro-gun stance in any post...in fact i do not like guns and wish they were never evented! But, they were! I did comment I would protect my family IF NECESSARY (i'm human) with a gun but not shoot to kill...did you some how miss that? Additionally, many things kill humans and other forms of life, including fishing rods, traps, and bow and arrows, and they were invented for that sole purpose. You get no argument out of me that something needs to be done but taking away guns from private law-abiding citizens is only giving criminals a free ticket. More stringent purchasing regulations is a thought but in NO WAY is enough. The bigger message is that a gun law is a treatment and society needs much more than a bandaid on the problem. We need to stop saying take away guns and turning our heads to the real problem...the real problem is we have messed up individuals, not just pissed off, in our society that need help. I believe prevention is key! We need to step up and take responsibility for today's youth...as adults we need to be better role models and hold higher standards. We need to love our children, as well as those who do not receive love from their own parents. We need to teach them peace in a world full of hate. That's where we need to start! People don't shoot people just because there is a gun in their home...they kill people by whatever means because of a much deeper issue. As far as Ghandi, a truly amazing example of love of mankind...i wish i could be so disciplined. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all were?

    thats a really good post :)

    i agree a lot with what you are saying
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Your chances of being killed by a lamp or falling down stairs is greater than that.


    depending on how drunk i am... the odds fluctuate then ;)
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    FreeMind wrote:
    First, i did not take a pro-gun stance in any post...in fact i do not like guns and wish they were never evented! But, they were! I did comment I would protect my family IF NECESSARY (i'm human) with a gun but not shoot to kill...did you some how miss that? Additionally, many things kill humans and other forms of life, including fishing rods, traps, and bow and arrows, and they were invented for that sole purpose. You get no argument out of me that something needs to be done but taking away guns from private law-abiding citizens is only giving criminals a free ticket. More stringent purchasing regulations is a thought but in NO WAY is enough. The bigger message is that a gun law is a treatment and society needs much more than a bandaid on the problem. We need to stop saying take away guns and turning our heads to the real problem...the real problem is we have messed up individuals, not just pissed off, in our society that need help. I believe prevention is key! We need to step up and take responsibility for today's youth...as adults we need to be better role models and hold higher standards. We need to love our children, as well as those who do not receive love from their own parents. We need to teach them peace in a world full of hate. That's where we need to start! People don't shoot people just because there is a gun in their home...they kill people by whatever means because of a much deeper issue. As far as Ghandi, a truly amazing example of love of mankind...i wish i could be so disciplined. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all were?

    First step would be to end wars. Wars always cause civil unrest.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Collin wrote:
    True, but the cause of their death was not alcohol but someone driving drunk.
    Anyway the comparison between the two cannot be made.

    the cause of death was not by the gun itself but by the person who pulled the trigger, it's okay that we don't see eye-to-eye on the analogy
    you must be the change you want to see in the world ~ Mahatma Gandhi
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    callen wrote:
    see the people on this board that are pro gun....can't comprehend your comments here.....you would think there would be no question and no argument....comparing 14 deaths in England to 23,000 in the US..but they won't read this...won't acknowledge it......but hey..they likely voted for Bush...."Twice".....so logic just doesn't come into play.

    Now on boiling pizza..and those 14 deaths attributed to US tourists....I fell out of my chair laughing....PLEASE TELL ME THE ENGLISH DON"T Boil PIZZA!!!!!


    i dont think anyone boils pizza :D

    And Charlton Heston...he, um, yes. Yes, he's had a few run-ins with monkeys, hasn't he? Charton Heston, he did, he did Planet of the Apes, didn't he? And, umm, and he not only played the Charlton Heston role, but he was also all the monkeys, as well. That's what people don't know.
    But anyway, he's head of your National Riffle Association, uhh. Because you have a gun problem, and it's because America's worked too well. You've worked too well. It was a good idea, freedom, ya know, the pursuit of freedom...happiness...pursuit of enjoyment? Happiness? The [I have no idea what he says here], I don't know, something. The pursuit of something.
    But you pursue happiness. [Mimes stalking with a rifle, with American accent]
    "C'mon, ya fuckin' happiness!"
    *Bang!*
    "I found me some happiness, I'm gonna shoot it now!"
    *Bang*
    "You fuckin' happiness!"
    *Bang*
    "You come at me with those big fuckin' eyes, and..."
    *Bang!*
    "Oh, shit. I shot my mother. I thought it was a deer. Oh, dear, anyway...well, we'll put some antlers on her, and do a sort of Woody Allen-type bit of stand-up."

    Umm...yeah. So, umm, uhh, yeah, so, the gun control thing. 'Cause we've got no guns, Australia's got no guns, you've got 'em all. And you're the Roman Empire now, ya know, there's no other superpower, so you're just out there and we can't catch up. Europe could get there, but it'll take us a bit of time. 'Cause we had it, the British Empire, and we lost it by going "Oh, do you think so?" and, umm...a lot.
    And "Oh, really? Have they?" There was a lot of that towards the end of the empire. "Are you sure?"
    Umm, uhh, where the fuck...?

    Oh, yeah. Charlton Heston. So, Charlton Heston, National Riffle...Rifle Association. Umm, and you have that saying, the, what is it? That "guns don't kill people, people kill people" but monkeys do, too! If they've got a gun. Without a gun, they're pretty friendly. But with a gun, they're pretty dangerous. And they wouldn't be lethal, they'd just be [mimes monkey stumbling about and firing handgun randomly] "Boomf! Ooo! Boomf! Ooo! Boomf! Ooo! Boomf! Ooo! Boomf! Ooo!"

    So, what I thought, ya know, is you give a gun to a monkey, and then let him into Charlton Heston's house, and then you lock the doors and then film it through the window.
    And we'll find out [sporadic applause], thank you twelve people.
    But we'll find out whether, ya know, it is the gun or they might have to change the line to:
    "Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do, too, brackets, if they've got a gun, close brackets."
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    FreeMind wrote:
    First, i did not take a pro-gun stance in any post...in fact i do not like guns and wish they were never evented! But, they were! I did comment I would protect my family IF NECESSARY (i'm human) with a gun but not shoot to kill...did you some how miss that? Additionally, many things kill humans and other forms of life, including fishing rods, traps, and bow and arrows, and they were invented for that sole purpose. You get no argument out of me that something needs to be done but taking away guns from private law-abiding citizens is only giving criminals a free ticket. More stringent purchasing regulations is a thought but in NO WAY is enough. The bigger message is that a gun law is a treatment and society needs much more than a bandaid on the problem. We need to stop saying take away guns and turning our heads to the real problem...the real problem is we have messed up individuals, not just pissed off, in our society that need help. I believe prevention is key! We need to step up and take responsibility for today's youth...as adults we need to be better role models and hold higher standards. We need to love our children, as well as those who do not receive love from their own parents. We need to teach them peace in a world full of hate. That's where we need to start! People don't shoot people just because there is a gun in their home...they kill people by whatever means because of a much deeper issue. As far as Ghandi, a truly amazing example of love of mankind...i wish i could be so disciplined. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all were?


    I agree completely.

    Last time we had the big discussion on this issue, here on thr MT, I said almost exactly the same thing. Just a few different words.
  • The less you know, the more you believe.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Jammin909 wrote:

    This kid used a Shotgun.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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