ANOTHER High School shooting

1970RR

dunkman1974 wrote:

quite easily... that shows total number of homicides, thats deaths by all murders, killings, by ANY weapon.. not deaths by handguns only!!!!

you'll find it on that site somewhere, but deaths by handguns have halved...

But thats the point the pro-gun side is making, that murders do not necessarily decrease simply because guns are banned.
Here are homicide stats before 1995, which seem to indicate that murders have risen over time: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library/documents-w3/his-t01.htm

dunkman

Like, I was over in England. You ever been to England, anyone, been to England? No one has handguns in England, not even the cops. True or false? True. Now in England last year, they had fourteen deaths from handguns. FFFFFourteen. Now the United States, and I think you know how we feel about handguns - Woooo, I'm getting a warm tingly feeling just saying the fucking word, to be honest with you. I swear to you, I am hard.

Twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns.

Now let's go through those numbers again, because they're a little baffling at first glance. England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns - Woooo, I'm getting a stiffy - twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns. But there's no connection, and you'd be a fool and a Communist to make one. There's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. There have been studies made and there is no connection at all there. Yes. That's absolute proof. You know, fourteen deaths from handguns. Probably American tourists, too.

(Angry tourist voice) You call this a sandwich? BANG! BANG! You don't boil pizza! BANG! BANG!

(Scared English voice) That's the way we eat here, that's the way we eat here! BANG!

(Tourist voice) This food sucks! BANG!"

soulsinging

dunkman1974 wrote:

Like, I was over in England. You ever been to England, anyone, been to England? No one has handguns in England, not even the cops. True or false? True. Now in England last year, they had fourteen deaths from handguns. FFFFFourteen. Now the United States, and I think you know how we feel about handguns - Woooo, I'm getting a warm tingly feeling just saying the fucking word, to be honest with you. I swear to you, I am hard.

Twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns.

Now let's go through those numbers again, because they're a little baffling at first glance. England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns - Woooo, I'm getting a stiffy - twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns. But there's no connection, and you'd be a fool and a Communist to make one. There's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. There have been studies made and there is no connection at all there. Yes. That's absolute proof. You know, fourteen deaths from handguns. Probably American tourists, too.

(Angry tourist voice) You call this a sandwich? BANG! BANG! You don't boil pizza! BANG! BANG!

(Scared English voice) That's the way we eat here, that's the way we eat here! BANG!

(Tourist voice) This food sucks! BANG!"

it's not our fault man! in all our movies it seems pretty clear that the average person can take several bullets and still be capable of fighting off a dozen attackers at one time. so the problem is that you pussies dont get back up after we shoot you like chuck norris would.

dunkman

1970RR wrote:

But thats the point the pro-gun side is making, that murders do not necessarily decrease simply because guns are banned.
Here are homicide stats before 1995, which seem to indicate that murders have risen over time: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library/documents-w3/his-t01.htm

you'll note that the dates go up to 1996... this was a crucial year for us.. a fuckhead with a gun went into a school in Scotland and shot 17 people in a school... since 1996 gun deaths have halved....

the total number of murders has stayed very level in those ten years, but we havent one instance in 10 years since 1996 where a kid has been shot by a handgun, in america its 14 per day or something ridiculous...

if junkies want to kill eavh other for drugs, money, cheese, whatevr... i couldnt give a fuck, but our gun controls have worked... the figures prove it!!! because the level of murders have stayed the same isnt in correlation!

outspaced

dunkman1974 wrote:

Like, I was over in England. You ever been to England, anyone, been to England? No one has handguns in England, not even the cops. True or false? True. Now in England last year, they had fourteen deaths from handguns. FFFFFourteen. Now the United States, and I think you know how we feel about handguns - Woooo, I'm getting a warm tingly feeling just saying the fucking word, to be honest with you. I swear to you, I am hard.

Twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns.

Now let's go through those numbers again, because they're a little baffling at first glance. England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns - Woooo, I'm getting a stiffy - twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns. But there's no connection, and you'd be a fool and a Communist to make one. There's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. There have been studies made and there is no connection at all there. Yes. That's absolute proof. You know, fourteen deaths from handguns. Probably American tourists, too.

(Angry tourist voice) You call this a sandwich? BANG! BANG! You don't boil pizza! BANG! BANG!

(Scared English voice) That's the way we eat here, that's the way we eat here! BANG!

(Tourist voice) This food sucks! BANG!"

Bill Hicks will never die

pushmepullme

NMyTree wrote:

What's stupid is to believe criminals/murderers acquire firearms through legal channels.


Criminals commit firearm-related crimes with illegal weapons/firearms.

Do they? Really? Are you absolutely positively sure about that? 100% of all firearm crimes in the USA are done with illegal firearms? Are you sure?

1970RR

dunkman1974 wrote:

you'll note that the dates go up to 1996... this was a crucial year for us.. a fuckhead with a gun went into a school in Scotland and shot 17 people in a school... since 1996 gun deaths have halved....

the total number of murders has stayed very level in those ten years, but we havent one instance in 10 years since 1996 where a kid has been shot by a handgun, in america its 14 per day or something ridiculous...

if junkies want to kill eavh other for drugs, money, cheese, whatevr... i couldnt give a fuck, but our gun controls have worked... the figures prove it!!! because the level of murders have stayed the same isnt in correlation!

You have claimed that banning guns would reduce violence and use Scotland as an example. I am simply pointing out that the number of homicides in Scotland is greater now, after the gun ban.

NMyTree

pushmepullme wrote:

Do they? Really? Are you absolutely positively sure about that? 100% of all firearm crimes in the USA are done with illegal firearms? Are you sure?

Oh you want to work in absolutes? Okay, let's work in absolutes.

First of all, we must address the real issue and that issue is Murder.

Not just murder by firearms, but murder of any kind. Because without firearms murders always have and will always continue to occur.

Second, we will require statistics and facts regarding comparative total populations, between the countries we are comparing with the United states Of America.

Let's look at those facts and statistics first, before assuming any absolutes, shall we?

NMyTree

1970RR wrote:

You have claimed that banning guns would reduce violence and use Scotland as an example. I am simply pointing out that the number of homicides in Scotland is greater now, after the gun ban.

Facts are unimportant.

The whole point that law-abbiding citizens owning and utilizing firearms as protection and defense, against criminals; makes criminals less likely to attack, is lost. Criminals who live in a gunless society have no fear of potential victims fighting back and defending themselves. Makes their lives so much easier.

rebornFixer

1970RR wrote:

You have claimed that banning guns would reduce violence and use Scotland as an example. I am simply pointing out that the number of homicides in Scotland is greater now, after the gun ban.

Exactly. And the same is true in Canada, since the long gun registry was implemented.

Can one of your anti-gun folks please explain to me how and why you completely ignore the data on this issue? I mean, facts might convince you in another debate, but clearly not this one.

Collin

FreeMind wrote:

Do you believe that it was a "personal choice" of the family splattered on the road by a drunk driver? Sadly, they are dead by someone's unforced personal choice.

True, but the cause of their death was not alcohol but someone driving drunk.
Anyway the comparison between the two cannot be made.

dunkman

1970RR wrote:

You have claimed that banning guns would reduce violence and use Scotland as an example. I am simply pointing out that the number of homicides in Scotland is greater now, after the gun ban.

first off.. i claimed banning handguns would mean a reduction in the number of deaths caused by handguns.... and this is the case... Scotlands deaths by handguns has halved.. as did Australias, Canadas, Japans, etc!

also your second sentence is wholly erroneous... the homicides total isnt greater at all!!! go back to your first post where you gave me the scotland.gov figures http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/13133031/30323 ... you'll notice that in 1995/96 there were 134 deaths... fast forward to 2004/2005 and the figure is 134... so where exactly is the rise???

actually... the years between 96 and 2004 are always less than the 134 totals of both the dates given above... so in fact murder rates have always been lower up until last year!!!

pushmepullme

NMyTree wrote:

Oh you want to work in absolutes? Okay, let's work in absolutes.

First of all, we must address the real issue and that issue is Murder.

Not just murder by firearms, but murder of any kind. Because without firearms murders always have and will always continue to occur.

Second, we will require statistics and facts regarding comparative total populations, between the countries we are comparing with the United states Of America.

Let's look at those facts and statistics first, before assuming any absolutes, shall we?

So what you're saying is that there is no point banning hand guns because people will still be murdered anyway????

Seems a strange way for a 'civilised' country to act.

dunkman

NMyTree wrote:

Criminals who live in a gunless society have no fear of potential victims fighting back and defending themselves. Makes their lives so much easier.

ok we live in a gunless society and yet PER CAPITA our crime rates are lower than yours... we have less violent crime, muggings, rape, etc... PER CAPITA than your nation does... and yet you have all the guns and we dont???

kinda fucks up your point that revelation doesnt it!

pushmepullme

pushmepullme wrote:

So what you're saying is that there is no point banning hand guns because people will still be murdered anyway????

Seems a strange way for a 'civilised' country to act.

And, I'm not comparing any countries. Why is this even an issue? Guns are bad. That is the end of the story. The gun is a violent weapon, and being shot is a horribly violent way to die.

rebornFixer

pushmepullme wrote:

And, I'm not comparing any countries. Why is this even an issue? Guns are bad. That is the end of the story. The gun is a violent weapon, and being shot is a horribly violent way to die.

But if that WAS the end of the story, this thread would have died after the third or so post. Obviously not everyone agrees with your ardent anti-gun stance.

rebornFixer

pushmepullme wrote:

So what you're saying is that there is no point banning hand guns because people will still be murdered anyway????

Seems a strange way for a 'civilised' country to act.

Civilized countries also do not seek to curtail every possible freedom with ineffective legislation. you know, IMO.

Ahnimus

One way to stop all murders is to ban all freedoms. Better yet, lock everyone in their own individual cell, so they can't hurt anyone else.

pushmepullme

reborncareerist wrote:

Civilized countries also do not seek to curtail every possible freedom with ineffective legislation. you know, IMO.

No, they just seek to bomb the fuck out of countries that don't agree with them don't they?

rebornFixer

pushmepullme wrote:

No, they just seek to bomb the fuck out of countries that don't agree with them don't they?

Here in Canada, we use geese for bomb runs.