it is made very clear on the campaign that volunteers do not act in his name. representing him, yes. but not acting in his name. obama doesn't control volunteers. i don't think obama has to do anything. i've been to rallies of his that have thousands of people lined up beforehand and volunteers are doing crowd control or pulling people for the front. there is a big difference between volunteers and staff on his campaign, and on any large campaign i'm sure. staff are not allowed to talk to press, etc. whereas volunteers can do what they want but are encouraged to think, of course. but they can't control hundreds of volunteers' actions.
what a dumb issue.
this is kind of a dumb issue, yes; kind of completely relevant though too.
to me it reflects less on Obama or even his campaign in particular and instead is a key reflector on the overall state of politics and culture in america. i dont think it's sad to talk about it, but it's sad that we need to talk about it.
i think political "campaigns" have become so ridiculous in-essentia: there's one thing about putting a message out, getting up and greeting some scattered citizens, and there's another side that is solely about images and "buying" votes [which is different than selling one's self to investors] and pretending everything is superb when really everything is false and frighteningly (dangerously) primped and prepared for mass-consumption.
me thinks Obama is a pure (thoroughbred) politician (crooked robot).
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
. It would become RNC and FOX NEWS must have wallpaper.
It is either way. Thats the rub. People here like to use this as a smear because they wouldn't be voting for Obama at anyway. Meh. They're gasping at straws. Flag pins and now this. Oh well.
Its also funny how people insist on "talking" like Obama personaly made the decision to not seat these people behind the podium. He greeted every atendee at the door and walked them arm in arm to their places like an usher at a wedding. Sheesh. It was most likely a spur of te moment decision and a tough one to make. None of these posters is running for president as a black guy with the middle name Hussein who has been repeatedly targeted by those who would paint him as Bin Laden's second cousin. Bunch of "armchair quarterbacks" with an anti-Obama agenda. Probably wasn't the right call to make, but this is a non-story.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
i'm not debating if obama told them to remove the girls or not, just saying even if it was a volunteer he should at least express he disagrees w/ what happened. volunteer or not they are in a way acting in his name
Um.... This from the article in the OP:
“This is of course not the policy of the campaign. It is offensive and counter to Obama’s commitment to bring Americans together and simply not the kind of campaign we run,” said Obama spokesman Bill Burton. “We sincerely apologize for the behavior of these volunteers.”
But anyway...
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
It is either way. Thats the rub. People here like to use this as a smear because they wouldn't be voting for Obama at anyway. Meh. They're gasping at straws. Flag pins and now this. Oh well.
Its also funny how people insist on "talking" like Obama personaly made the decision to not seat these people behind the podium. He greeted every atendee at the door and walked them arm in arm to their places like an usher at a wedding. Sheesh. It was most likely a spur of te moment decision and a tough one to make. None of these posters is running for president as a black guy with the middle name Hussein who has been repeatedly targeted by those who would paint him as Bin Laden's second cousin. Bunch of "armchair quarterbacks" with an anti-Obama agenda. Probably wasn't the right call to make, but this is a non-story.
Actually, I'd say it's an important story. Not as an Obama smear campaign, but as an indictment of how stupid prejudices are still very much a factor in American politics. As in, it's not a sign of Obama being anti-Muslim, or anything - but it's a clear sign that some people think being seen with a Muslim could actually cost Obama the election. And worse, they might be right.
(Clarification: I don't want Obama to win. I just don't want him to lose over something so stupid. :cool: )
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
“This is of course not the policy of the campaign. It is offensive and counter to Obama’s commitment to bring Americans together and simply not the kind of campaign we run,” said Obama spokesman Bill Burton. “We sincerely apologize for the behavior of these volunteers.”
But anyway...
Would you be so eager to hand out free passes and understanding had it been Hillary or McCain's campaign volunteers that made such a racial/ethnic based call?
It's all damage control after the fact now.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Would you be so eager to hand out free passes and understanding had it been Hillary or McCain's campaign volunteers that made such a racial/ethnic based call?
It's all damage control after the fact now.
I will say that I would let it go as long as it was there campaign Volunteers and there was an apology issued. Again this was not in Obama's control just like it wouldn't have been in Hillary's or McCain's control.
Of course its damage control but so are most public apologies.
I am in the camp that this is Anti-Obama people grasping at straws.
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Would you be so eager to hand out free passes and understanding had it been Hillary or McCain's campaign volunteers that made such a racial/ethnic based call?
.
First of all, once again, "muslim" isn't a race or ethnicity. Its a religion. Now, to answer your question, Yes, i would have no choice but to handle clinton or mccain in the same fashion. This is just dumb.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
I will say that I would let it go as long as it was there campaign Volunteers and there was an apology issued. Again this was not in Obama's control just like it wouldn't have been in Hillary's or McCain's control.
Of course its damage control but so are most public apologies.
I am in the camp that this is Anti-Obama people grasping at straws.
Who knows....race is a huge issue we shouldn't ignore one week and the next it's grasping at straws....
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
First of all, once again, "muslim" isn't a race or ethnicity. Its a religion. Now, to answer your question, Yes, i would have no choice but to handle clinton or mccain in the same fashion. This is just dumb.
Yes but they were removed because of their appearance not their beliefs.
I have no choice but to believe you but I have to say based on your past posts regarding Hillary, it is a bit hard to swallow.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Actually, I'd say it's an important story. Not as an Obama smear campaign, but as an indictment of how stupid prejudices are still very much a factor in American politics. As in, it's not a sign of Obama being anti-Muslim, or anything - but it's a clear sign that some people think being seen with a Muslim could actually cost Obama the election. And worse, they might be right.
)
See, now this is something i can agre with. This is the REAL story within the stupid one.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Who knows....race is a huge issue we shouldn't ignore one week and the next it's grasping at straws....
I don't think Race was ever an issue.
I think Rev Wright was grasping at straws.
I think Obama's church in general was grasping at straws.
I think the Muslim thing was grasping at straws.
It has nothing to do with Obama as a candidate which we all know you don't support.
And being a Muslim is not a race its a religion. It would be more like refusing to have two Jews in yamika's sit behind him.
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Yes but they were removed because of their appearance not their beliefs.
I have no choice but to believe you but I have to say based on your past posts regarding Hillary, it is a bit hard to swallow.
They were removed because of headscarves which is an manifestation of Islamic faith. Its really no big deal. Tere is no need for you to argue with me on this one. They were apparent muslims, which has nothing to do with race.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Yeah, it's not race but it's still along the same lines, discrimination against someone/thing that is different from what it accepted.
That's fair enough but unless it was Obama himself who pointed out the 2 Muslims and said they can not sit behind me when I speak then its a non issue for Obama.
Rhinocerous Surprise is correct in that the real issue is America's intolerance for other cultures, religions, and races.
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That's fair enough but unless it was Obama himself who pointed out the 2 Muslims and said they can not sit behind me when I speak then its a non issue for Obama.
Rhinocerous Surprise is correct in that the real issue is America's intolerance for other cultures, religions, and races.
Well America wasn't given the chance to be intolerant in this case so you can't blame them.
It was this whole notion of feeding into perceived intolerance that caused this episode instead of making the decision based on what the campaign volunteers actually tolerated, themselves.....and that was my whole problem in the thread last week where there was a discussion on racism. It was all about basing decisions/actions on what was the perceived level of racism among others around us instead of looking inwards and not making the same race based judgments, ourselves. We are all in control of what we think and do and we all make up society. If we want a society less rooted in racism and discrimination then it's time we stopped perpetuating it.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i don't agree that this is a issue but my question is usually when you volunteer for something the reason is that you believe in that thing. what would make the vol.s thing that this would be a problem. i don't doubt for a second that they were told by someone who does get paid to do this.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
Well America wasn't given the chance to be intolerant in this case so you can't blame them.
It was this whole notion of feeding into perceived intolerance that caused this episode instead of making the decision based on what the campaign volunteers actually tolerated, themselves.....and that was my whole problem in the thread last week where there was a discussion on racism. It was all about basing decisions/actions on what was the perceived level of racism among others around us instead of looking inwards and not making the same race based judgments, ourselves. We are all in control of what we think and do and we all make up society. If we want a society less rooted in racism and discrimination then it's time we stopped perpetuating it.
I don't think there is anyone to blame per se. Not everything has to have a fall person to take the blame for an incident like this.
Its just another example of a couple of Americans who made poor judgement based on some prejudices they had against Muslims. Because they worked for Obama the Obama camp was forced to respond which they did.
But it is more of an issue with America's intolerance then an issue with the Barak Obama campaign for president.
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When you support someone being moved based on their religious dress, that is very much about you. On one level it may be about politics. However, I am referring to the level where your words openly support discriminatory actions. And where you justify discrimination.
That's bullshit, that's like saying just because I'm a gun owner, I support murder. I'm interpreting a judgment call made on behalf of a politician and I still don't have a problem with them being asked to move. I'm not a public figure and as a private citizen I wouldn't be impacted by a person sitting down next to me, in front of me or behind me in traditional muslim wear.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Yeah so all this shows is that Obama is just another pathetic politician.
Exactly, and he is handled and protected by his staff just as any other politician would be, even more so as a candidate for President. That is what staff's do.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Its just another example of a couple of Americans who made poor judgement based on some prejudices they had against Muslims.
i wouldn't say the volunteers were prejudiced against muslims. they were probably playing 'political strategist' and didn't want to ignite a foxhannity firestorm with headscarves and obama. was that right? i don't know. obama was screwed either way in that scenario. this way maybe a little less so. jesus, i still hear some people say they won't vote for obama because he is a muslim. they believe it because they read it on the internet.
the whole crowd behind the candidate is always chosen. these two were not chosen because of their headscarves. it sucks because it does illustrate what's wrong with this society, like other posts said (i think you said that too).
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
I don't think there is anyone to blame per se. Not everything has to have a fall person to take the blame for an incident like this.
Its just another example of a couple of Americans who made poor judgement based on some prejudices they had against Muslims. Because they worked for Obama the Obama camp was forced to respond which they did.
But it is more of an issue with America's intolerance then an issue with the Barak Obama campaign for president.
So you think the volunteers acted alone and that they held personal prejudices against Muslims?
This issue had nothing to do with America's anything...it was 'volunteers' inside Obama's campaign who made the call according to you and they either made the call based on their own prejudices or they made the call based on their perception of America's prejudices. At some point you have to do what's right based on what you actually believe and take responsibility for your actions. You can't justify wrongdoings just because you felt you had to do it based on what you thought would be acceptable to a 'discriminatory America'....doing that makes you part of that very problem. If they had made the call to let these women have their seats then it would in fact be America's turn to react and we could have that discussion.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Well America wasn't given the chance to be intolerant in this case so you can't blame them.
It was this whole notion of feeding into perceived intolerance that caused this episode instead of making the decision based on what the campaign volunteers actually tolerated, themselvesquote]
It isn't PERCIEVED intolerance, Abook, its very REAL intolerance, and America, in general, HAS been given the chance, time and time again, and failed miserably. It started with the very first bogus e-mail that spread like ebola across the internet before this campaign even started. Its unfortunate, but politics is, in fact a game, and you can't win without playing the game. You don't win the superbowl by sending onto the field a pitcher, catcher, four infielders, and three outfielders.
Furthermore, the fact remains that these people were seated, probably before Obama, himself even arived at the venue. All this amounts to is questionable play calling by unpaid volunteers. Cheerleaders basically.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
It isn't PERCIEVED intolerance, Abook, its very REAL intolerance, and America, in general, HAS been given the chance, time and time again, and failed miserably. It started with the very first bogus e-mail that spread like ebola across the internet before this campaign even started. Its unfortunate, but politics is, in fact a game, and you can't win without playing the game. You don't win the superbowl by sending onto the field a pitcher, catcher, four infielders, and three outfielders.
Furthermore, the fact remains that these people were seated, probably before Obama, himself even arived at the venue. All this amounts to is questionable play calling by unpaid volunteers. Cheerleaders basically.
So how you play the game to get the win is of no importance? No wonder we get such sorry 'leaders'...
Everything is based on a perception. And how you act/react based on these perceptions against your own core beliefs of right and wrong is highly important if we wish to evolve past these very problems you speak of.
America or at least the majority of America's voters are supporting Obama right now, no? And it is my perception that the majority of Americans are not intolerant of Muslims, didn't buy the spin about Obama being Muslim that's already out there or they didn't care if he was either way.....so why would anyone feel the need to compromise their values and commit an act of intolerance, themselves?
also....I am not saying this is a reason to not vote Obama. This is just interesting discussion.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That's bullshit, that's like saying just because I'm a gun owner, I support murder. I'm interpreting a judgment call made on behalf of a politician and I still don't have a problem with them being asked to move. I'm not a public figure and as a private citizen I wouldn't be impacted by a person sitting down next to me, in front of me or behind me in traditional muslim wear.
You have gone beyond interpreting a judgment...you've supported the action, and justified it in this thread. You support removing an individual based on religious dress.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
So how you play the game to get the win is of no importance? No wonder we get such sorry 'leaders'...
Everything is based on a perception. And how you act/react based on these perceptions against your own core beliefs of right and wrong is highly important if we wish to evolve past these very problems you speak of.
.
Of course it matters. But the truth still remains that you can't win a football game with a baseball team. Perhaps a better analogy would be a chess match. In chess, to be successful you must anticipate your opponets moves several turns in advance. This current episode might be seen as sacrificing a couple of pawns to save one's queen. Furthermore, it isn't the Obama campaign that established the current rules. Obama is in the awkward position of trying to run the type of campaign he wishes while keeping himself in a position to win. The problem with that is there is someone on the other side of the board forcing him to make moves, out of unfortunate necessity, that he would rather not make.
In addition to all this, as everyone knows, losers don't make the rules. He has to actually win first. (And the point still exists that he wasn't the one seating these people. It wasn't even paid staffers).
Now let me ask you the same thing you asked me. Were this a Nader event, would you be so quick to condemn him for minor, questionable decisions made by his unpaid volunteers?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
You have gone beyond interpreting a judgment...you've supported the action, and justified it in this thread. You support removing an individual based on religious dress.
In all due respect, i think you are taking some liberties with your assessment. i don't see that. What i intrepret from this poster is a willingness to accept this as unfortunate political play calling. Like i have stated, i would have made a different call, but at the same time i understand the difficulty of this decision and can at least understand what motivated these volunteers to make the judgement call they did. That doesn't mean i support religious intolerance. i'm assuming this poster is seeing this through similar lenses.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Of course it matters. But the truth still remains that you can't win a football game with a baseball team. Perhaps a better analogy would be a chess match. In chess, to be successful you must anticipate your opponets moves several turns in advance. This current episode might be seen as sacrificing a couple of pawns to save one's queen. Furthermore, it isn't the Obama campaign that established the current rules. Obama is in the awkward position of trying to run the type of campaign he wishes while keeping himself in a position to win. The problem with that is there is someone on the other side of the board forcing him to make moves, out of unfortunate necessity, that he would rather not make.
In addition to all this, as everyone knows, losers don't make the rules. He has to actually win first. (And the point still exists that he wasn't the one seating these people. It wasn't even paid staffers).
Now let me ask you the same thing you asked me. Were this a Nader event, would you be so quick to condemn him for minor, questionable decisions made by his unpaid volunteers?
A good chess player isn't forced to make bad moves. And no one can force you to do something you view as wrong....that's just another form of lifting personal responsibility in an effort to place the blame outside of yourself. To get past these problems within our society we need not play by crooked rules in a rigged game....we make new rules by living within them ourselves first and foremost and then taking responsibility for it when we don't.
I'm not even condemning Obama here....I'm commenting on how people think this sort of behavior is justifiable. So yes, if it were Nader's campaign I would still have the same concerns.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Comments
Yeah they have no brains and are easy to control.
i'm sorta just joking around, sorta.
this is kind of a dumb issue, yes; kind of completely relevant though too.
to me it reflects less on Obama or even his campaign in particular and instead is a key reflector on the overall state of politics and culture in america. i dont think it's sad to talk about it, but it's sad that we need to talk about it.
i think political "campaigns" have become so ridiculous in-essentia: there's one thing about putting a message out, getting up and greeting some scattered citizens, and there's another side that is solely about images and "buying" votes [which is different than selling one's self to investors] and pretending everything is superb when really everything is false and frighteningly (dangerously) primped and prepared for mass-consumption.
me thinks Obama is a pure (thoroughbred) politician (crooked robot).
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
[just dont tell my bride,..
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
Its also funny how people insist on "talking" like Obama personaly made the decision to not seat these people behind the podium. He greeted every atendee at the door and walked them arm in arm to their places like an usher at a wedding. Sheesh. It was most likely a spur of te moment decision and a tough one to make. None of these posters is running for president as a black guy with the middle name Hussein who has been repeatedly targeted by those who would paint him as Bin Laden's second cousin. Bunch of "armchair quarterbacks" with an anti-Obama agenda. Probably wasn't the right call to make, but this is a non-story.
Um.... This from the article in the OP:
“This is of course not the policy of the campaign. It is offensive and counter to Obama’s commitment to bring Americans together and simply not the kind of campaign we run,” said Obama spokesman Bill Burton. “We sincerely apologize for the behavior of these volunteers.”
But anyway...
Actually, I'd say it's an important story. Not as an Obama smear campaign, but as an indictment of how stupid prejudices are still very much a factor in American politics. As in, it's not a sign of Obama being anti-Muslim, or anything - but it's a clear sign that some people think being seen with a Muslim could actually cost Obama the election. And worse, they might be right.
(Clarification: I don't want Obama to win. I just don't want him to lose over something so stupid. :cool: )
Would you be so eager to hand out free passes and understanding had it been Hillary or McCain's campaign volunteers that made such a racial/ethnic based call?
It's all damage control after the fact now.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I will say that I would let it go as long as it was there campaign Volunteers and there was an apology issued. Again this was not in Obama's control just like it wouldn't have been in Hillary's or McCain's control.
Of course its damage control but so are most public apologies.
I am in the camp that this is Anti-Obama people grasping at straws.
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First of all, once again, "muslim" isn't a race or ethnicity. Its a religion. Now, to answer your question, Yes, i would have no choice but to handle clinton or mccain in the same fashion. This is just dumb.
Who knows....race is a huge issue we shouldn't ignore one week and the next it's grasping at straws....
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yes but they were removed because of their appearance not their beliefs.
I have no choice but to believe you but I have to say based on your past posts regarding Hillary, it is a bit hard to swallow.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
See, now this is something i can agre with. This is the REAL story within the stupid one.
I don't think Race was ever an issue.
I think Rev Wright was grasping at straws.
I think Obama's church in general was grasping at straws.
I think the Muslim thing was grasping at straws.
It has nothing to do with Obama as a candidate which we all know you don't support.
And being a Muslim is not a race its a religion. It would be more like refusing to have two Jews in yamika's sit behind him.
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They were removed because of headscarves which is an manifestation of Islamic faith. Its really no big deal. Tere is no need for you to argue with me on this one. They were apparent muslims, which has nothing to do with race.
Yeah, it's not race but it's still along the same lines, discrimination against someone/thing that is different from what it accepted(in their eyes).
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That's fair enough but unless it was Obama himself who pointed out the 2 Muslims and said they can not sit behind me when I speak then its a non issue for Obama.
Rhinocerous Surprise is correct in that the real issue is America's intolerance for other cultures, religions, and races.
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Well America wasn't given the chance to be intolerant in this case so you can't blame them.
It was this whole notion of feeding into perceived intolerance that caused this episode instead of making the decision based on what the campaign volunteers actually tolerated, themselves.....and that was my whole problem in the thread last week where there was a discussion on racism. It was all about basing decisions/actions on what was the perceived level of racism among others around us instead of looking inwards and not making the same race based judgments, ourselves. We are all in control of what we think and do and we all make up society. If we want a society less rooted in racism and discrimination then it's time we stopped perpetuating it.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
I don't think there is anyone to blame per se. Not everything has to have a fall person to take the blame for an incident like this.
Its just another example of a couple of Americans who made poor judgement based on some prejudices they had against Muslims. Because they worked for Obama the Obama camp was forced to respond which they did.
But it is more of an issue with America's intolerance then an issue with the Barak Obama campaign for president.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
That's bullshit, that's like saying just because I'm a gun owner, I support murder. I'm interpreting a judgment call made on behalf of a politician and I still don't have a problem with them being asked to move. I'm not a public figure and as a private citizen I wouldn't be impacted by a person sitting down next to me, in front of me or behind me in traditional muslim wear.
Exactly, and he is handled and protected by his staff just as any other politician would be, even more so as a candidate for President. That is what staff's do.
i wouldn't say the volunteers were prejudiced against muslims. they were probably playing 'political strategist' and didn't want to ignite a foxhannity firestorm with headscarves and obama. was that right? i don't know. obama was screwed either way in that scenario. this way maybe a little less so. jesus, i still hear some people say they won't vote for obama because he is a muslim. they believe it because they read it on the internet.
the whole crowd behind the candidate is always chosen. these two were not chosen because of their headscarves. it sucks because it does illustrate what's wrong with this society, like other posts said (i think you said that too).
cross the river to the eastside
So you think the volunteers acted alone and that they held personal prejudices against Muslims?
This issue had nothing to do with America's anything...it was 'volunteers' inside Obama's campaign who made the call according to you and they either made the call based on their own prejudices or they made the call based on their perception of America's prejudices. At some point you have to do what's right based on what you actually believe and take responsibility for your actions. You can't justify wrongdoings just because you felt you had to do it based on what you thought would be acceptable to a 'discriminatory America'....doing that makes you part of that very problem. If they had made the call to let these women have their seats then it would in fact be America's turn to react and we could have that discussion.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
So how you play the game to get the win is of no importance? No wonder we get such sorry 'leaders'...
Everything is based on a perception. And how you act/react based on these perceptions against your own core beliefs of right and wrong is highly important if we wish to evolve past these very problems you speak of.
America or at least the majority of America's voters are supporting Obama right now, no? And it is my perception that the majority of Americans are not intolerant of Muslims, didn't buy the spin about Obama being Muslim that's already out there or they didn't care if he was either way.....so why would anyone feel the need to compromise their values and commit an act of intolerance, themselves?
also....I am not saying this is a reason to not vote Obama. This is just interesting discussion.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Of course it matters. But the truth still remains that you can't win a football game with a baseball team. Perhaps a better analogy would be a chess match. In chess, to be successful you must anticipate your opponets moves several turns in advance. This current episode might be seen as sacrificing a couple of pawns to save one's queen. Furthermore, it isn't the Obama campaign that established the current rules. Obama is in the awkward position of trying to run the type of campaign he wishes while keeping himself in a position to win. The problem with that is there is someone on the other side of the board forcing him to make moves, out of unfortunate necessity, that he would rather not make.
In addition to all this, as everyone knows, losers don't make the rules. He has to actually win first. (And the point still exists that he wasn't the one seating these people. It wasn't even paid staffers).
Now let me ask you the same thing you asked me. Were this a Nader event, would you be so quick to condemn him for minor, questionable decisions made by his unpaid volunteers?
In all due respect, i think you are taking some liberties with your assessment. i don't see that. What i intrepret from this poster is a willingness to accept this as unfortunate political play calling. Like i have stated, i would have made a different call, but at the same time i understand the difficulty of this decision and can at least understand what motivated these volunteers to make the judgement call they did. That doesn't mean i support religious intolerance. i'm assuming this poster is seeing this through similar lenses.
A good chess player isn't forced to make bad moves. And no one can force you to do something you view as wrong....that's just another form of lifting personal responsibility in an effort to place the blame outside of yourself. To get past these problems within our society we need not play by crooked rules in a rigged game....we make new rules by living within them ourselves first and foremost and then taking responsibility for it when we don't.
I'm not even condemning Obama here....I'm commenting on how people think this sort of behavior is justifiable. So yes, if it were Nader's campaign I would still have the same concerns.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde