Iowa court rules same-sex couples can marry

decides2dream

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i wouldn't argue if kids growing up in homosexual homes suffer.... but i would argue that the mother of the child who's growing up with two daddies must suck for them.

put it this way.... if i empregnated this girl and turns out she's a lesbian.... i wouldn't want her to be influencing my child's point-of-view by telling my kid that he/she's got two mommies. god, it's like she's literally yanked my balls out..... that would really hurt me.

well personal choicese are just that, personal. i'm looking at the broader picture.


btw - more often than not, lesbians/gays adopt....OR go for artificial insemination, either from a sperm donor, or a trusted friend. it is quite 'rare' for a woman to 'turn' lesbian...at most she may be bisexual, and again....most people do share with their partners who they are. at least i hope so!

wolfbear

It's interesting. I finally googled and the only negative statements I could find were from religious sites. All others were either that same parent households were no different and quite a few actually said the kids were better off. This was one.
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=38cc20ce-7f14-44ea-b4d9-d4cd16d7a269&k=9378
I can't say I'm surprised. It is just common sense that two people who would go through all that they have to to have a child would be loving parents and provide a loving home and upbringing.

decides2dream

wolfbear wrote:

It's interesting. I finally googled and the only negative statements I could find were from religious sites. All others were either that same parent households were no different and quite a few actually said the kids were better off. This was one.
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=38cc20ce-7f14-44ea-b4d9-d4cd16d7a269&k=9378
I can't say I'm surprised. It is just common sense that two people who would go through all that they have to to have a child would be loving parents and provide a loving home and upbringing.

*smooch*
indeed!
i've always thought the same myself...and have read similar findings in the past.

Brain of J.Lo

Good call bumping this post.

I guess the reason Juberoo hasn't been able to respond just yet is that she is sorting through tons of facts and figures to support her own argument. Surely, she wouldn't just cut and run on us.

:rolleyes:

deadnothingbetter

wolfbear wrote:

It's interesting. I finally googled and the only negative statements I could find were from religious sites. All others were either that same parent households were no different and quite a few actually said the kids were better off. This was one.
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=38cc20ce-7f14-44ea-b4d9-d4cd16d7a269&k=9378
I can't say I'm surprised. It is just common sense that two people who would go through all that they have to to have a child would be loving parents and provide a loving home and upbringing.

i'm not buying the part about same sex couples being better at parenting.... it kinda degrades what my father and mother have done and taught me. they are great people.... anyone on here would never and could never ask for more than what they've done.

that link is just a little tooo biased..

OutOfBreath

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i'm not buying the part about same sex couples being better at parenting.... it kinda degrades what my father and mother have done and taught me. they are great people.... anyone on here would never and could never ask for more than what they've done.

that link is just a little tooo biased..

I dont understand how that degrades your parents in any way. Because same-sex parents can be as good? That isn't an indictment of your parents, you know.

And how is it biased? It shows the results of an official canadian study.

Peace
Dan

gue_barium

blackredyellow wrote:

I figured that I might as well poke the hornet's nest with this article...


Iowa court rules same-sex couples can marry

(CNN) -- An Iowa district court ruled Thursday that same-sex couples can marry based on the state constitution's guarantee of equal treatment, court documents show.

The ruling was in response to a December 2005 lawsuit brought by six same-sex couples seeking to wed. They were denied marriage licenses and claimed such treatment violates equal-protection and due-process clauses in the Iowa constitution.

The court also struck down a state law declaring valid marriages are only between a man and woman.

The Iowa District Court for Polk County advances the case to the Iowa Supreme Court which will make a final decision on same-sex marriage, according to Lambda Legal, a gay and lesbian legal organization representing the couples.

The 63-page ruling, written by Judge Robert Hanson states: "Couples, such as plaintiffs, who are otherwise qualified to marry one another may not be denied licenses to marry or certificates of marriage or in any other way prevented from entering into a civil marriage pursuant to Iowa Code Chapter 595 by reason of the fact that both persons compromising such a couple are of the same sex."

The law describing marriage as between a man and a woman, "constitutes the most intrusive means by the state to regulate marriage. This statute is an absolute prohibition on the ability of gay and lesbian individuals to marry a person of their choosing," Hanson wrote.

Lambda says the six couples are all in long-term relationship - one couple has been together for six years, another couple has been together for 17 years.

"Three of the couples are raising children, others are planning families, and all want the responsibilities of marriage and the protections only marriage can provide," according to the organization.

"We respectfully disagree with the court's decision, and we're going to ask for a stay," said Polk County Attorney John Sarcone.

He said his office will examine whether it's best to file a motion to reconsider. But barring a change in the court's opinion, Sarcone will appeal the ruling.

Co-counsel for the plaintiffs along with Lambda Legal, Dennis Johnson called the ruling "a significant step forward in recognizing the constitutional rights of all Iowans, and it's an amazing day for same-sex couples and their families all across Iowa."


Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/30/iowa.samesexmarriage/index.html?section=cnn_latest

That's amazing, coming from Iowa.

gue_barium

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i wouldn't argue if kids growing up in homosexual homes suffer.... but i would argue that the mother of the child who's growing up with two daddies must suck for them.

put it this way.... if i empregnated this girl and turns out she's a lesbian.... i wouldn't want her to be influencing my child's point-of-view by telling my kid that he/she's got two mommies. god, it's like she's literally yanked my balls out..... that would really hurt me.

So a human life to you, comes down to your testes? I mean, I'm sure you have some really pretty balls, but in spite of the fact that there's some sperm production going on there...once born...it isn't quite the same thing, is it?

wow.

decides2dream

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

Good call bumping this post.

I guess the reason Juberoo hasn't been able to respond just yet is that she is sorting through tons of facts and figures to support her own argument. Surely, she wouldn't just cut and run on us.

:rolleyes:

honestly..i am just soooo ANTI misinformtion...and i hate to see it spread. there are enough questionable sources out there on any given topic...and even amongst truly educated experts at times, no consencus is reached on certain topics. however, when valid and documented information is out there...i like to see such wisdom shared. not to say it is the end-all, be-all of research...but it's always good to share and build on educated knowledge.


and yes...to see less opinions presented as fact. if it is your psychobabble belief...or your religious belief...or simply your personal bias on any given topic.....that's all good. truly. i couldn't care less where one forms their personal beliefs. it is ONLY when they try to pass them on as some sort of factual information that i ever take isssue. so yes....just thought, sunday really shared some excellent information with us.

deadnothingbetter

gue_barium wrote:

So a human life to you, comes down to your testes? I mean, I'm sure you have some really pretty balls, but in spite of the fact that there's some sperm production going on there...once born...it isn't quite the same thing, is it?

wow.

you just don't get it, do you?

never had a father to teach you of a woman's value? a man's value? what honor it is to have a father? to have a mother? i guess..... my dad must be a real old timer.... samurai ancient or something.

deadnothingbetter

OutOfBreath wrote:

I dont understand how that degrades your parents in any way. Because same-sex parents can be as good? That isn't an indictment of your parents, you know.

And how is it biased? It shows the results of an official canadian study.

Peace
Dan

read the post again.... i said the part that says that gay parents can be better at parenting.... i'll give them the benefit of the doubt though.... sure, a kid can grow up in a same sex parenting household and still grow up a perfectly normal kid. but to tell me that same sex parenting is actually better than a regular opposite sex parenting??? that's a little too much...

OutOfBreath

deadnothingbetter wrote:

read the post again.... i said the part that says that gay parents can be better at parenting.... i'll give them the benefit of the doubt though.... sure, a kid can grow up in a same sex parenting household and still grow up a perfectly normal kid. but to tell me that same sex parenting is actually better than a regular opposite sex parenting??? that's a little too much...

Well if the findings suggested that gay were as good, and perhaps in a very small way better on some of the indicators chosen, that isn't very much. The lesbian mother at the end had some strong opinions, but that was not the gist of it. The findings was that there were small or non-existent difference between gay and straight parents, and some of the very small differences actually pointed in that direction. Statistically, if you have many variables that have little effect (meaning little difference in this case) then they will go slightly up or down as a result of zero is VERY rare if not impossible. In this case, some of the small effects went in the direction of gay parents, and som in favour of straight, but the differences largely insignificant, and thus lent litte weight. This was a quantitative statistical analysis.

And even if they had said that gay parents are totally better, I still dont see why that would degrade your parents in any possible way. This study does not give or take away anything from your parents or their parenting in any way I can see.

Peace
Dan

deadnothingbetter

OutOfBreath wrote:

Well if the findings suggested that gay were as good, and perhaps in a very small way better on some of the indicators chosen, that isn't very much. The lesbian mother at the end had some strong opinions, but that was not the gist of it. The findings was that there were small or non-existent difference between gay and straight parents, and some of the very small differences actually pointed in that direction. Statistically, if you have many variables that have little effect (meaning little difference in this case) then they will go slightly up or down as a result of zero is VERY rare if not impossible. In this case, some of the small effects went in the direction of gay parents, and som in favour of straight, but the differences largely insignificant, and thus lent litte weight. This was a quantitative statistical analysis.

And even if they had said that gay parents are totally better, I still dont see why that would degrade your parents in any possible way. This study does not give or take away anything from your parents or their parenting in any way I can see.

Peace
Dan

yes it does. if they say gay parenting might be better that's exactly what they are suggesting. if you don't see it, it's very easy. put gay parents next to my parents.... than based on the study you conclude that the gay parents are actually better at parenting than my parents. that's bullshit. (and i don't curse very often)

it's as if i were to say that mexicans are just as good, if not BETTER than white americans at parenting. or vice-versa.... catch my drift? i just feel that the article would've been much more affective if they just concluded that gay parenting is just as equal as any other normal opposite-sex parenting. (not that i would necessarily agree but i'll let them have it)

OutOfBreath

deadnothingbetter wrote:

yes it does. if they say gay parenting might be better that's exactly what they are suggesting. if you don't see it, it's very easy. put gay parents next to my parents.... than based on the study you conclude that the gay parents are actually better at parenting than my parents. that's bullshit. (and i don't curse very often)

Then you dont understand how statistics work. Your parents are irrelevant, as they may well be way above the average hetero couple. Who knows? Noone has measured it here in any way. So the couples put beside eachother would depend on.. the couples put aside eachother. What is said here is first of all, there is virtually no difference between gay and hetero parents and secondly, at some indicators, gays actually came out marginally better (implying that straights came out best on others).

How it demeans your parents I still honestly do not see, as your parents are in no way involved here. If anything, the average gay parents may be marginally better at some things than the average straight parents. Are your parents average in the statistical sense? Who knows?

it's as if i were to say that mexicans are just as good, if not BETTER than white americans at parenting. or vice-versa.... catch my drift? i just feel that the article would've been much more affective if they just concluded that gay parenting is just as equal as any other normal opposite-sex parenting. (not that i would necessarily agree but i'll let them have it)

Well, if the data did show that mexicans were better parents, then that's what the data shows. How much one should read into it, is another matter, and also depending on the data used.

These data, however, showed what you wanted: No difference to speak of. Period.

Peace
Dan

decides2dream

deadnothingbetter wrote:

yes it does. if they say gay parenting might be better that's exactly what they are suggesting. if you don't see it, it's very easy. put gay parents next to my parents.... than based on the study you conclude that the gay parents are actually better at parenting than my parents. that's bullshit. (and i don't curse very often)

it's as if i were to say that mexicans are just as good, if not BETTER than white americans at parenting. or vice-versa.... catch my drift? i just feel that the article would've been much more affective if they just concluded that gay parenting is just as equal as any other normal opposite-sex parenting. (not that i would necessarily agree but i'll let them have it)

not at ALL what is being said. i am not speaking for dan - outofbreath - however, if such a statement as 'gays are better parents' were to be true....it would simply mean ON AVERAGE....IN GENERAL......as in MOST of the time. there are ALWAYS exceptions, so your exceptional parents could obviously be BETTER parents. however, no matter what...it is ONE article, in a sea of studies...and given how often gay parenting IS beashed, it is really nice to see them get the kudos they deserve, and also to show that sometimes, yes...they might actually even be 'better' than average parents. that's all.



opps...and i see dan already addressed the issue. i started this post...actually got interrupted by some work haha...and then just finished it off. eh well, nothing like driving home a point, eh?

deadnothingbetter

OutOfBreath wrote:

Then you dont understand how statistics work. Your parents are irrelevant, as they may well be way above the average hetero couple. Who knows? Noone has measured it here in any way. So the couples put beside eachother would depend on.. the couples put aside eachother. What is said here is first of all, there is virtually no difference between gay and hetero parents and secondly, at some indicators, gays actually came out marginally better (implying that straights came out best on others).

How it demeans your parents I still honestly do not see, as your parents are in no way involved here. If anything, the average gay parents may be marginally better at some things than the average straight parents. Are your parents average in the statistical sense? Who knows?

i got my own personal views about parenting.... but i don't want to get into that. so i wouldn't say that my parents are better than average or just average.

maybe the wordings they used were entirely wrong. you know, the part about gays being better than straights. when they say "gay parents" are better than "straight parents" they're are automatically saying that a gay couple could've raised me better than my parents. how could you not see it?

now... sure, there are some straight parents who are bad parents... which would make them worse than some gay parents. see what i mean? that would've been a more accurate statistic. just cos some study was performed in canada doesn't mean that it conclusively implies that gay parents are better than all straight parents. it's just the whole wording and the title can be very misleading.

Well, if the data did show that mexicans were better parents, then that's what the data shows. How much one should read into it, is another matter, and also depending on the data used.

you're telling me that you'd be okay with it? you're telling me that you'd be trusting those mexicans, that is if the mexicans made this study about they themselves being better at parenting?

These data, however, showed what you wanted: No difference to speak of. Period.

what do you mean?

deadnothingbetter

decides2dream wrote:

it is ONE article, in a sea of studies...and given how often gay parenting IS beashed, it is really nice to see them get the kudos they deserve, and also to show that sometimes, yes...they might actually even be 'better' than average parents.

ok, that's all i'm saying. thanks. not that i, myself, would give them kudos... but i could live with that.

OutOfBreath

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i got my own personal views about parenting.... but i don't want to get into that. so i wouldn't say that my parents are better than average or just average.

maybe the wordings they used were entirely wrong. you know, the part about gays being better than straights. when they say "gay parents" are better than "straight parents" they're are automatically saying that a gay couple could've raised me better than my parents. how could you not see it?

OK, it seems one thing needs to be made clear. These results were based on quantitative statistical analysis which is not included directly, but whose results are presented. It is not loose opinion we're talking about, but results from statistical analysis of data.

And actually, you are wrong. That gays overall in some measures are better than straight does not at all mean that any gay couple could have raised you better. It just means that on some of the indicators (of which there were many) gays were actually slightly, and I do mean slightly, better. On average. You cannot in any way cut that down to your parents specifically, so no reason to get personal, unless they participated in this study. This has nothing to do with you, your upbringing or your parents. Statistics like that are never to be interpreted on a person level.

now... sure, there are some straight parents who are bad parents... which would make them worse than some gay parents. see what i mean? that would've been a more accurate statistic. just cos some study was performed in canada doesn't mean that it conclusively implies that gay parents are better than all straight parents. it's just the whole wording and the title can be very misleading.

Again, statistical analysis makes for the claims made here. And they do say that there are no significant (mind this word as it makes a world of difference in statistics) differences.

you're telling me that you'd be okay with it? you're telling me that you'd be trusting those mexicans, that is if the mexicans made this study about they themselves being better at parenting?

If a study was made, and this was the result, then that was the result. Like it or not, and interpret it as you wish. It doesn't hold as opinion in itself, and neither does gays are better parents. It is a result of statistical analysis. If the result doesn't sound right, then we need to move into how they measure in this study, which is not mentioned here and make a critique of method. But truths and results must be treated for what they are, inconvenient as they may be.

what do you mean?

If you look aside the lesbian mother ending that article, the main result listed was No difference to speak of between straight and gay parents. The slight in favour of gays found, since they dont highlight it much and state how it is very small may be not much more than statistical insecurity. Small differences in statistics can often be replaced with no difference. But since it actually tipped a bit that way, they thought it worthy of mention.

But the result was, as you requested, no difference to speak of.

(edit) hold it. If you just accepted what d2d said, then you are in agreement with me as well here. I am just driving home what a statistical study and its' results means.

Peace
Dan

deadnothingbetter

OutOfBreath wrote:

OK, it seems one thing needs to be made clear. These results were based on quantitative statistical analysis which is not included directly, but whose results are presented. It is not loose opinion we're talking about, but results from statistical analysis of data.

all the more reason i wouldn't trust that article completely.

And actually, you are wrong.

no i'm not.

That gays overall in some measures are better than straight does not at all mean that any gay couple could have raised you better.

yes it does. if they say that overall in some measures gay parents are (slightly) better than straight parents then they are most certainly implying that there was a tidy little good chance that i would've probably been raised better.

It just means that on some of the indicators (of which there were many) gays were actually slightly, and I do mean slightly, better. On average.

see what i mean?

You cannot in any way cut that down to your parents specifically, so no reason to get personal, unless they participated in this study.

oh come on... if they put out this study that means that they were trying to show that this is definitely plausible in any other situation, including my parents. in other words, if it holds true for them then it certainly holds true for any other parents, including my parents.

This has nothing to do with you, your upbringing or your parents. Statistics like that are never to be interpreted on a person level.

well, not on a personal level... but they certainly did come out with some slightly ridiculous claims.

Again, statistical analysis makes for the claims made here. And they do say that there are no significant (mind this word as it makes a world of difference in statistics) differences.

except that in general they are slightly better :rolleyes:

If a study was made, and this was the result, then that was the result. Like it or not, and interpret it as you wish. It doesn't hold as opinion in itself, and neither does gays are better parents. It is a result of statistical analysis. If the result doesn't sound right, then we need to move into how they measure in this study, which is not mentioned here and make a critique of method. But truths and results must be treated for what they are, inconvenient as they may be.

you said it yourself, "It's a result of statistical analysis. If the result doesn't sound right, then we need to move into how they measure in this study, which is not mentioned here" all the while, still even more reasons why i wouldn't trust the article.

If you look aside the lesbian mother ending that article, the main result listed was No difference to speak of between straight and gay parents. The slight in favour of gays found, since they dont highlight it much and state how it is very small may be not much more than statistical insecurity. Small differences in statistics can often be replaced with no difference. But since it actually tipped a bit that way, they thought it worthy of mention.

no gain mentioning it.... just to piss people off, probably.

But the result was, as you requested, no difference to speak of.

which is fine.... if there are no differences, then there are no differences... and none of that, "they might be slightly better" thing.

(edit) hold it. If you just accepted what d2d said, then you are in agreement with me as well here. I am just driving home what a statistical study and its' results means.

oh ok... then ignore all that i said.

Peace
Dan

Peace, Miguel

OutOfBreath

Ah forget it. My main beef was anyway this statement here (and the ones like it):

deadnothingbetter wrote:

oh come on... if they put out this study that means that they were trying to show that this is definitely plausible in any other situation, including my parents. in other words, if it holds true for them then it certainly holds true for any other parents, including my parents.

It is always, always wrong to infer such large scale studies down to the personal level in any way. What a big statistic study shows as mean and average tendencies does nothing to you or yours in particular. And, in this case, what was measured was average tendencies for children with different types of parents and how well they adjusted on various scales. If there are tendencies of ethnicity (like your mexican example), doesn't mean that everyone becoming mexican would soilve anything. Gay parents being better on average does not mean that everyone should have gay parents. This is a type of mistake that is one of the first kinds you learn in social sciences. They go like this:
1. Because one person can do it, everyone can do it.
2. If an average or tendency say most people do it, means that you do it.

Both if these are wrong.

And dont mess with me on this, I am teaching method in social sciences at the university right now.

And further, you seemed to imply that being compared with gays were an insult in itself ie. gays suck, if they are better at something, than those being beaten must then suck harder.

Now if you can see what my main objections here have been, then we can probably lay this to rest, as I dont think we disagree that much anyway.

Peace
Dan