That's the point he was making. He's saying if fire didn't bring down the first two, what was the reason for 7.
he lumped it in with the other two by saying it was only the third steel structure building to come down because of fire...fire didn't destroy any of the buildings...to keep bringing it up is ludicrous...i have no idea why building 7 came down...i haven't looked into it at all...
the reason 7 collapsed was due to structural damage caused by the first 2 towers falling........
if you look at pictures of wtc 3, 4, 5, & 6 you can easily see that they sustained far greater damage than building 7, especially 5. i believe the term 'raging inferno' would be correct for wtc 5. considering that NIST is still researching why 7 fell, and in their powerpoint they suggest explosives as possibility, i wouldn't be that quick to be so vague in your explanation.
you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
~Ron Burgundy
if you look at pictures of wtc 3, 4, 5, & 6 you can easily see that they sustained far greater damage than building 7, especially 5. i believe the term 'raging inferno' would be correct for wtc 5. considering that NIST is still researching why 7 fell, and in their powerpoint they suggest explosives as possibility, i wouldn't be that quick to be so vague in your explanation.
page 5 seems to explain the reason why 7 collapsed.....
usually you'd duck out of the thread when building 7 came up or you would start making personal attacks...
�� An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;
�� Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up tothe east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse;
�� Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors)resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.
That's a very close approximation of how it happened.
�� An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;
�� Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up tothe east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse;
�� Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors)resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.
That's a very close approximation of how it happened.
those are sequence theories,... among other theories being explored by NIST
you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
~Ron Burgundy
look assbag,... just don't act like everyone who thinks the commission report and the 'official' story is bullshit is a conspiracy nutjob,... there are many credible and reputable people questioning and investigating for the whole truth.
you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
~Ron Burgundy
look assbag,... just don't act like everyone who thinks the commission report and the 'official' story is bullshit is a conspiracy nutjob,... there are many credible and reputable people questioning and investigating for the whole truth.
Really? Who? Name one. And how many people qualify as "many"?
Assbag? Am I supposed to take offense to that? Who calls someone assbag...
�� An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;
�� Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up tothe east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse;
�� Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors)resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.
That's a very close approximation of how it happened.
'it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse'
'resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure'
this doesn't look like a disproportionate collapse, looks pretty uniform to me...
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Its interesting that some of the posts argue that our government wouldn't do this and that and we should stop wasting our time with conspiracy theory and so on. Interestingly enough, during WWII, when the first reports began to circulate of there being mass murder occuring in death camps, Germans opted to believe and trust in their government. They ignored the reports and dismissed them as conspiracy theory.
Its healthy for us to discuss these theories (1)because at least there are still some US citizens who care enough about the world that they would even waste their time on this board trying to expose the rest of us to events or facts that aren't out there for the mainstream audience to learn about. (2) What if it is all true? Is this acceptable. I fear that for many Americans it is. They are so indifferent to world events they probably would still not care. So what if our country is on the path to a fascist dictatorship. Many Americans would not care until their individual rights are gone. ....Which in case you haven't noticed are slowing dwindling away. (Secret wire taps, lack of due process for 'suspected terrorists', etc...e.g.The Patriot Act)
and are you a structural engineer? I'm honestly asking. Disproportionate doesn't have to mean grossly disproportionate. If the interior of the structure collapsed before the west penthouse (or whatever) do you know if that would even manifest in something that could be picked up visually and externally?
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Maybe at first the German public didn't believe that their gov't was running concentration camps, but it had to have become pretty apparent when they were being setup in their back yards, or when all the Jews in their towns started to disappear. We are 5 years past 9/11, and there is not one piece of credible evidence that supports a conspiracy. I would expect that one of the 1,000 of people it would take to put together the 9/11 conspiracy would have talked by now, or the people who 'didn't really die in the planes used, because they were taken to an air base in ohio, and then to area-51' would have some how gotten word out to someone.
I don't know one person who has had the gov't perform a 'seceret wire tap' on them or who has lost their due process, because they were preceived to be a terrorist. The notion that your civil liberities are being thrown down the toilet is just false. The worst thing that has happened to me since 9/11 is once after a flight my luggage was zip tied shut and when I opened it a nice card was set on top of my stuff telling me homeland security had searched my bag. Big deal, I'm glad they did, and I hope they do that to everyone. If it keeps on plane from being blown out of the sky, we should be all for it. Why is it ok for use to use these techniques on suspected drug dealers & smugglers, but when it comes to terrorist suspects its a violation of everyones civil liberities? It makes no sense.
Maybe at first the German public didn't believe that their gov't was running concentration camps, but it had to have become pretty apparent when they were being setup in their back yards, or when all the Jews in their towns started to disappear. We are 5 years past 9/11, and there is not one piece of credible evidence that supports a conspiracy. I would expect that one of the 1,000 of people it would take to put together the 9/11 conspiracy would have talked by now, or the people who 'didn't really die in the planes used, because they were taken to an air base in ohio, and then to area-51' would have some how gotten word out to someone.
I don't know one person who has had the gov't perform a 'seceret wire tap' on them or who has lost their due process, because they were preceived to be a terrorist. The notion that your civil liberities are being thrown down the toilet is just false. The worst thing that has happened to me since 9/11 is once after a flight my luggage was zip tied shut and when I opened it a nice card was set on top of my stuff telling me homeland security had searched my bag. Big deal, I'm glad they did, and I hope they do that to everyone. If it keeps on plane from being blown out of the sky, we should be all for it. Why is it ok for use to use these techniques on suspected drug dealers & smugglers, but when it comes to terrorist suspects its a violation of everyones civil liberities? It makes no sense.
What would be credible enough for you? Do you think that it would be somehow easy to go against that amount of power and influence? Lives could easily be turned upside or worse. These are people with tons of power. Even people that ratted out the mob had to go under witness protection. So how do you think a person would feel going up against a group with ties to the military and it's technology? So that alone isn't enough to make me believe the official theory.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
and are you a structural engineer? I'm honestly asking. Disproportionate doesn't have to mean grossly disproportionate. If the interior of the structure collapsed before the west penthouse (or whatever) do you know if that would even manifest in something that could be picked up visually and externally?
The amount of damage to WTC7 from the clips I've seen didn't seem to be near as bad as buildings much closer to the towers which didn't collapse. I certainly wouldn't have guessed that it would collapse.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The amount of damage to WTC7 from the clips I've seen didn't seem to be near as bad as buildings much closer to the towers which didn't collapse. I certainly wouldn't have guessed that it would collapse.
that building does look a lot worse off than WTC 7...the only I know to do with it is ask questions re: age of that building, height of the building, design...I don't know squat about structural engineering (except if a building is standing it's sound and if it falls, it ceases to be sound).
Unless we had video cameras inside the WTC towers we will truly never know. I wouldn't have guessed it would have collapsed just from looking, but I'll analogize it to something I do know...I wouldn't guess by looking at some people they have cancer, yet people do have that. All that we can do is hypothesize about what the structural integrity was and what possibly brought it down.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
and are you a structural engineer? I'm honestly asking. Disproportionate doesn't have to mean grossly disproportionate. If the interior of the structure collapsed before the west penthouse (or whatever) do you know if that would even manifest in something that could be picked up visually and externally?
(there are additional pics/info on the other wtc buildings on that site as well.)
building 7 was the farthest away from the towers, and suffered less structural damage than any of the other buildings in the complex. yet it falls down in 6 seconds into a neat little pile while the others remain standing (until demolished, or "pulled" according to a construction worker interviewed in the same pbs doc that silverstein said building seven was "pulled")
it also happened to be a building that housed offices of the CIA, secret service, SEC, and others. it also had an emergency command bunker on the 23rd floor, which had its own air/water supply, blast proof windows, and all sorts of communication equipment.
i'd like to know:
a. who told rudy that?
b. how did they know, particularly since no one expected the buildings to come down?
c. why the fuck wasn't anyone else told?
a shiny nickel to anyone who has those answers.
i'm more a fan of popular bands.. like the bee-gees, pearl jam
What would be credible enough for you? Do you think that it would be somehow easy to go against that amount of power and influence? Lives could easily be turned upside or worse. These are people with tons of power. Even people that ratted out the mob had to go under witness protection. So how do you think a person would feel going up against a group with ties to the military and it's technology? So that alone isn't enough to make me believe the official theory.
There are people who work for the gov't who question it all the time. Joe Wilson and Erek Whatata (sp) come to mind. It would take thousands of people to pull off 9/11, and to not have one of them or a group of them come out and admit involvement, just lends more proof that it wasn't a conspiracy. Some want to believe so badly that it was a conspiracy, keeping reaching I guess.
I was going to post essentially what chopitdown said so I don't need to repeat myself.
So let's debate a single topic to an end without diversion or distraction. I'd like to address the Pentagon or WTC 1 or 2. These are the events that have the best documentation. If you want to continue with WTC 7 that's fine. Pick one and let's put this to rest.
There are people who work for the gov't who question it all the time. Joe Wilson and Erek Whatata (sp) come to mind. It would take thousands of people to pull off 9/11, and to not have one of them or a group of them come out and admit involvement, just lends more proof that it wasn't a conspiracy. Some want to believe so badly that it was a conspiracy, keeping reaching I guess.
i don't think that "thousands" would need to know what was going on. with all the wargames going on that day involving hijackings and planes crashing into buildings, many people could have been fooled into thinking that what was happening was just part of a drill. as an example, there are tapes of air traffic controllers expressing confusion, saying "is this real world or exercise". people may have been part of something that they didn't realize.
i'm more a fan of popular bands.. like the bee-gees, pearl jam
i don't think that "thousands" would need to know what was going on. with all the wargames going on that day involving hijackings and planes crashing into buildings, many people could have been fooled into thinking that what was happening was just part of a drill. as an example, there are tapes of air traffic controllers expressing confusion, saying "is this real world or exercise". people may have been part of something that they didn't realize.
I'm talking more about the logistics that would require so many people. Preparing 3 buildings, two of which are massive to be placed with explosives. The people needed to take care of the people who were actually on the planes that crashed into their targets. There's no way the biggest con of all time would have been possible with only a small group of people.
Comments
That's the point he was making. He's saying if fire didn't bring down the first two, what was the reason for 7.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
the reason 7 collapsed was due to structural damage caused by the first 2 towers falling........
and this thread needs to suffer a quick painless death.......
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Agreed.
-Enoch Powell
he lumped it in with the other two by saying it was only the third steel structure building to come down because of fire...fire didn't destroy any of the buildings...to keep bringing it up is ludicrous...i have no idea why building 7 came down...i haven't looked into it at all...
from my window to yours
if you look at pictures of wtc 3, 4, 5, & 6 you can easily see that they sustained far greater damage than building 7, especially 5. i believe the term 'raging inferno' would be correct for wtc 5. considering that NIST is still researching why 7 fell, and in their powerpoint they suggest explosives as possibility, i wouldn't be that quick to be so vague in your explanation.
~Ron Burgundy
and this is from the NIST report.....correct????
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
"further investigations are needed"
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/WTC7_Approach_Summary12Dec06.pdf
~Ron Burgundy
structural damage caused by the collapse of the towers caused the collapse of 7...
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
we'll find out for sure, hopefully sooner than later,...
~Ron Burgundy
Seems like he would have been a really good fit for the task.
�� An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;
�� Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up tothe east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse;
�� Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors)resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.
That's a very close approximation of how it happened.
those are sequence theories,... among other theories being explored by NIST
~Ron Burgundy
That's right! You win a gold medal!
:rolleyes:
look assbag,... just don't act like everyone who thinks the commission report and the 'official' story is bullshit is a conspiracy nutjob,... there are many credible and reputable people questioning and investigating for the whole truth.
~Ron Burgundy
Really? Who? Name one. And how many people qualify as "many"?
Assbag? Am I supposed to take offense to that? Who calls someone assbag...
:rolleyes:
http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
I would like to think members of our military and intelligence agencies would qualify to you as "credible and reputable".
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
thanks
~Ron Burgundy
'it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse'
'resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure'
this doesn't look like a disproportionate collapse, looks pretty uniform to me...
http://www.wtc7.net/videos.html
where, exactly, is it disproportionate???
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Its healthy for us to discuss these theories (1)because at least there are still some US citizens who care enough about the world that they would even waste their time on this board trying to expose the rest of us to events or facts that aren't out there for the mainstream audience to learn about. (2) What if it is all true? Is this acceptable. I fear that for many Americans it is. They are so indifferent to world events they probably would still not care. So what if our country is on the path to a fascist dictatorship. Many Americans would not care until their individual rights are gone. ....Which in case you haven't noticed are slowing dwindling away. (Secret wire taps, lack of due process for 'suspected terrorists', etc...e.g.The Patriot Act)
and are you a structural engineer? I'm honestly asking. Disproportionate doesn't have to mean grossly disproportionate. If the interior of the structure collapsed before the west penthouse (or whatever) do you know if that would even manifest in something that could be picked up visually and externally?
I don't know one person who has had the gov't perform a 'seceret wire tap' on them or who has lost their due process, because they were preceived to be a terrorist. The notion that your civil liberities are being thrown down the toilet is just false. The worst thing that has happened to me since 9/11 is once after a flight my luggage was zip tied shut and when I opened it a nice card was set on top of my stuff telling me homeland security had searched my bag. Big deal, I'm glad they did, and I hope they do that to everyone. If it keeps on plane from being blown out of the sky, we should be all for it. Why is it ok for use to use these techniques on suspected drug dealers & smugglers, but when it comes to terrorist suspects its a violation of everyones civil liberities? It makes no sense.
What would be credible enough for you? Do you think that it would be somehow easy to go against that amount of power and influence? Lives could easily be turned upside or worse. These are people with tons of power. Even people that ratted out the mob had to go under witness protection. So how do you think a person would feel going up against a group with ties to the military and it's technology? So that alone isn't enough to make me believe the official theory.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I realize that this isn't the same building but it seems pretty odd to me that this building suffered much more damage and didn't collapse.
http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2005/02/310954.jpg
The amount of damage to WTC7 from the clips I've seen didn't seem to be near as bad as buildings much closer to the towers which didn't collapse. I certainly wouldn't have guessed that it would collapse.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
that building does look a lot worse off than WTC 7...the only I know to do with it is ask questions re: age of that building, height of the building, design...I don't know squat about structural engineering (except if a building is standing it's sound and if it falls, it ceases to be sound).
Unless we had video cameras inside the WTC towers we will truly never know. I wouldn't have guessed it would have collapsed just from looking, but I'll analogize it to something I do know...I wouldn't guess by looking at some people they have cancer, yet people do have that. All that we can do is hypothesize about what the structural integrity was and what possibly brought it down.
wtc 5 had raging fires in it (nothing like what building 7 had), and also bore the brunt of the towers collapses. yet, it did not collapse:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc5.html
wtc 4 partially collapsed, due to the north tower falling directly on top of it, but it did not completely collapse:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc4.html
(there are additional pics/info on the other wtc buildings on that site as well.)
building 7 was the farthest away from the towers, and suffered less structural damage than any of the other buildings in the complex. yet it falls down in 6 seconds into a neat little pile while the others remain standing (until demolished, or "pulled" according to a construction worker interviewed in the same pbs doc that silverstein said building seven was "pulled")
it also happened to be a building that housed offices of the CIA, secret service, SEC, and others. it also had an emergency command bunker on the 23rd floor, which had its own air/water supply, blast proof windows, and all sorts of communication equipment.
giuliani was there, but left after, and i quote him, "we were told that the world trade center was gonna collapse." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hNmf76GUCw
i'd like to know:
a. who told rudy that?
b. how did they know, particularly since no one expected the buildings to come down?
c. why the fuck wasn't anyone else told?
a shiny nickel to anyone who has those answers.
There are people who work for the gov't who question it all the time. Joe Wilson and Erek Whatata (sp) come to mind. It would take thousands of people to pull off 9/11, and to not have one of them or a group of them come out and admit involvement, just lends more proof that it wasn't a conspiracy. Some want to believe so badly that it was a conspiracy, keeping reaching I guess.
I was going to post essentially what chopitdown said so I don't need to repeat myself.
So let's debate a single topic to an end without diversion or distraction. I'd like to address the Pentagon or WTC 1 or 2. These are the events that have the best documentation. If you want to continue with WTC 7 that's fine. Pick one and let's put this to rest.
Ready?
i don't think that "thousands" would need to know what was going on. with all the wargames going on that day involving hijackings and planes crashing into buildings, many people could have been fooled into thinking that what was happening was just part of a drill. as an example, there are tapes of air traffic controllers expressing confusion, saying "is this real world or exercise". people may have been part of something that they didn't realize.
I'm talking more about the logistics that would require so many people. Preparing 3 buildings, two of which are massive to be placed with explosives. The people needed to take care of the people who were actually on the planes that crashed into their targets. There's no way the biggest con of all time would have been possible with only a small group of people.