nader would have been an afterthought if they didn't rig florida in 2000 ... can anyone actually point to nader costing gore electoral colleges?? ... gore did win the popular vote ... but unfortunately because most states play out as suspenseful as a scooby doo episode - there are these swing states ... all they needed to do was rig one ... one where candidates brother governs ...
All third party candidates running in 2000 in Florida received more votes than the
difference between Gore and Bush, as well.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i had to watch part of CNN's 'not just another cable news show' and the brief moments i saw were all about ross perot and showed a bunch of sound bytes to make him look crazy...at the end they said "but he still managed to steal enough votes from george bush allowing bill clinton to win"
how did he steal any votes?? how did they belong to bush in the first place??
if i choose to go to jack in the box instead of mcdonalds is jack in the box stealing money from mcdonalds? and if they happened to be closed it doesn't necessarily mean i would've gone to mcdonalds
it just seems like the media tries to discredit 3rd parties
I agree....saying 3rd party candidates "steal" votes is incorrect...
personally, I think people should vote for whomever that want...
however, history has shown, supporting 3rd party candidates may have unintended consequences...
I agree....saying 3rd party candidates "steal" votes is incorrect...
personally, I think people should vote for whomever that want...
however, history has shown, supporting 3rd party candidates may have unintended consequences...
If you have strong canidates... competition should bring out the best in them and show people why they are the best canidates... The absolute weakness of the career politicians our major parties have provided are the entire reason anyone would run third party. For all the talk of disenfranchisement.... what about the people that say the hell with this.... these people are all essentially status quo this is not what I want?
I've been kind of amused especially by Hillary Clinton's treatment of this election especially early on as if a nomination was something that should just be handed to her... I put in my time I'm experienced give it to me now I want it. She's like Veruca Salt. Gore almost had the same attitude but just less fortitude.
McCain is almost the same way except the Republican party I guess had no one else. He was a much better canidate than Bush 8 years ago they screwed up royally and pushed the wrong guy and they shit on him and I guess now they feel bad about it?
Thanks Political Strategists....
Where is the substance in debates? It's just hollow and empty now.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
I've been kind of amused especially by Hillary Clinton's treatment of this election especially early on as if a nomination was something that should just be handed to her... I put in my time I'm experienced give it to me now I want it. She's like Veruca Salt.
really...? my vote for Obama won't lead to Nader winning...
I do know that much...
The votes for Obama instead of Nader will keep Nader from winning going by your logic. Also your vote for Obama and mine vote for Nader could possibly lead to McCain winning so how is Nader anymore to blame than Obama? None of that should matter. The point is simple, the Democratic Party does not automatically deserve anyone's vote just because they are not Republicans. That kind of thinking has lead to their corruption and extreme lack of accountability. They treat voters as if they are the only alternative so they can do as they please because lefties will all line up and vote for them anyways. Not this voter.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The votes for Obama instead of Nader will keep Nader from winning going by your logic. Also your vote for Obama and mine vote for Nader could possibly lead to McCain winning so how is Nader anymore to blame than Obama? None of that should matter. The point is simple, the Democratic Party does not automatically deserve anyone's vote just because they are not Republicans. That kind of thinking has lead to their corruption and extreme lack of accountability. They treat voters as if they are the only alternative so they can do as they please because lefties will all line up and vote for them anyways. Not this voter.
all I said is this:
history has shown, supporting 3rd party candidates may have unintended consequences...
I also said:
personally, I think people should vote for whomever that want...
history has shown, supporting 3rd party candidates may have unintended consequences...
I also said:
personally, I think people should vote for whomever that want...
I know but I have to give a counter argument to that sentiment even if you're not advocating people making their vote based on it because that line of thinking...that fear of a Republican winning, is what's causing this problem
in the first place.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think that as it stands.. Third Party Candidates come from one side or the other. i believe than in order to be a successful Third Party Candidate... you need to be in the middle... neither too liberal or too conservative.
Because no matter how we try to justify it... Perot voters were mostly voters more likely to vote for Bush (41) over Clinton and those whom voted for Nader in 2000 would have voted for Gore over Bush.
Test it. If you voted for Nader in 2000... you people reading this. If Nader was not on the scene... let's pretend he doesn't exist... who would you have voted for is 2000? Bush or Gore?
I'm going out on a limb here and saying Gore. And I don't think I have to go too far out.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I know but I have to give a counter argument to that sentiment even if you're not advocating people making their vote based on it because that line of thinking...that fear of a Republican winning, is what's causing this problem
in the first place.
ok...
also, I'm glad you can see that I'm not steering anyone away from voting 3rd party...but you have to admit, voting 3rd party can have consequences.....
I think that as it stands.. Third Party Candidates comes from one side or the other. i believe than in order to be a successful Third Party Candidate... you need to be in the middle... neither too liberal or too conservative.
Because no matter how we try to justify it... Perot voters were mostly voters more likely to vote for Bush (41) over Clinton and those whom voted for Nader in 2000 would have voted for Gore over Bush.
Test it. If you voted for Nader in 2000... you people reading this. If Nader was not on the scene... let's pretend he doesn't exist... who would you have voted for is 2000? Bush or Gore?
I'm going out on a limb here and saying Gore. And I don't think I have to go too far out.
I think Perot seemed to draw evenly from the D's and R's from the stats I've seen
You mean if by law you could only vote for one of the two parties? I guess I would have voted for Gore.
I didn't trust him then because of Clinton and voted for Nader.
We are not limited to two parties in the U.S. so we have the choice to vote for who we think is the best.
What happened in 2000 was 100% the Supreme Court
If you keep yourself as the final arbiter you will be less susceptible to infection from cultural illusion.
I think that as it stands.. Third Party Candidates comes from one side or the other. i believe than in order to be a successful Third Party Candidate... you need to be in the middle... neither too liberal or too conservative.
Because no matter how we try to justify it... Perot voters were mostly voters more likely to vote for Bush (41) over Clinton and those whom voted for Nader in 2000 would have voted for Gore over Bush.
Test it. If you voted for Nader in 2000... you people reading this. If Nader was not on the scene... let's pretend he doesn't exist... who would you have voted for is 2000? Bush or Gore?
I'm going out on a limb here and saying Gore. And I don't think I have to go too far out.
None of this should matter. People should be encouraged to vote for who best represents their views....not whomever the horrid ineffectual two party system puts out there for us to choose from. Democracy is about having a say in a society and how it will be ran. I'll be damned if others are going to choose what my chance to have a say will be. I'm not voting for numbers, I'm voting for ideas. I'm not voting for the most money, I'm voting for the most deserving in my eyes.
If you have centerist views then a centerist third party works for you...if not then look for someone who better fits your ideals.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
And consider today's political climate. The Democrats and Republicans are basically at war with each other. You need no venture away from this board to see how divided we are... based soley on political party!!! Some Republicans would rather sacrifice their virgin daughter than to ever vote for a Democrat... and vice versa.
Example: Bush has a 29% approval rating. Let's say that the 29% translates into 29% of the popular votes. all you need to do is lock in 22% of the rest of us and you win... 51 to 49.
Granted, that 29% are the ones who Tina Fey said, "Believes that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church one Sunday"... but, still... it's 29%.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
also, I'm glad you can see that I'm not steering anyone away from voting 3rd party...but you have to admit, voting 3rd party can have consequences.....
I'm just saying...that's all...:)
Just as you can say that voting for these two ineffectual and corrupt parties has had it's consequences....
just sayin' :)
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
One other thing... I think 1988 was a good time for a Third Party to arise. Bush(41) vs. Dukakis. And 1992, Bush(41) vs. Clinton.
But, i personally felt that 2000 was too important to demo out a Third Party (sorry). Why? Because there was the emminent seating of at least one Supreme Court seat... possibly up to 3. That was my fear... the Religious Christian Right seating Supreme Court Justices who would argue in making this nation a Christian Theocracy.
And it's not anti-Christian... if it were leaning towards a Jewish State or a Muslim Theocracy or a Scientology Theocracy... I'd feel the same way. I believe in the seperation of Church and State... ANY Church and State.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
One other thing... I think 1988 was a good time for a Third Party to arise. Bush(41) vs. Dukakis. And 1992, Bush(41) vs. Clinton.
But, i personally felt that 2000 was too important to demo out a Third Party (sorry). Why? Because there was the emminent seating of at least one Supreme Court seat... possibly up to 3. That was my fear... the Religious Christian Right seating Supreme Court Justices who would argue in making this nation a Christian Theocracy.
And it's not anti-Christian... if it were leaning towards a Jewish State or a Muslim Theocracy or a Scientology Theocracy... I'd feel the same way. I believe in the seperation of Church and State... ANY Church and State.
But we can't keep voting in fear. We have every opportunity as a nation to vote for people who would do a waaaaaaay better job than the parties and the people within them we currently elect time and time again.
The two parties rely on the population to think they have no other choice except to vote for them. So they essentially get away with murder, pandering and not representing their constituents year after year. Their answer: 'At least I'm not as bad as this guy' in other words 'At least I'm slightly better than shit.' Meh, save it. I'm at my breaking point and will no longer allow myself to be part of what I see as a HUGE problem in this country...apathy, indifference and an abandonment of things I hold dear.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
None of this should matter. People should be encouraged to vote for who best represents their views....not whomever the horrid ineffectual two party system puts out there for us to choose from. Democracy is about having a say in a society and how it will be ran. I'll be damned if others are going to choose what my chance to have a say will be. I'm not voting for numbers, I'm voting for ideas. I'm not voting for the most money, I'm voting for the most deserving in my eyes.
If you have centerist views then a centerist third party works for you...if not then look for someone who better fits your ideals.
Generally you're correct, and I have no argument.
But polarize it more. Let's say we knew exactly what W would do in the next 4-8 years in 2000. And let's say there's a viable Dem and a viable 3rd that leans left (just as in 2000). Now, democratically speaking, of course you can vote for whomever you choose. But if you know that voting for the 3rd party may have the slimmest chance of knocking the Dem out, would you still vote for the 3rd?
I have a real hard time with this, because I completely agree with your post. At the same time though, I cannot imagine this country led by McCain (well, I can, it's been the last 8 years and I'm sick of it). If Hilldog or O8ama were to start a 3rd party campaign because they didn't get the nomination you can bet they'd take more Dems with them than Repubs. Would that scenario change the way you thought about things?
When Jesus said "Love your enemies" he probably didn't mean kill them...
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
But we can't keep voting in fear. We have every opportunity as a nation to vote for people who would do a waaaaaaay better job than the parties and the people within we currently elect time and time again.
The two parties rely on the population to think they have no other choice except to vote for them. So they essentially get away with murder, pandering and not representing their constituents year after year. Their answer: 'At least of not as bad as this guy' in other words 'At least I'm slightly better than shit.' Meh, save it. I'm at my breaking point and will no longer allow myself to be part of what I see as a HUGE problem in this country...apathy, indifference and an abandonment of things I hold dear.
Pretty much answered my question. And before I posted it. Well done.
When Jesus said "Love your enemies" he probably didn't mean kill them...
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
But we can't keep voting in fear. We have every opportunity as a nation to vote for people who would do a waaaaaaay better job than the parties and the people within them we currently elect time and time again.
The two parties rely on the population to think they have no other choice except to vote for them. So they essentially get away with murder, pandering and not representing their constituents year after year. Their answer: 'At least I'm not as bad as this guy' in other words 'At least I'm slightly better than shit.' Meh, save it. I'm at my breaking point and will no longer allow myself to be part of what I see as a HUGE problem in this country...apathy, indifference and an abandonment of things I hold dear.
so eloquent.....thanks abook....i've been thinking this since 1992....:)
But we can't keep voting in fear. We have every opportunity as a nation to vote for people who would do a waaaaaaay better job than the parties and the people within them we currently elect time and time again.
The two parties rely on the population to think they have no other choice except to vote for them. So they essentially get away with murder, pandering and not representing their constituents year after year. Their answer: 'At least I'm not as bad as this guy' in other words 'At least I'm slightly better than shit.' Meh, save it. I'm at my breaking point and will no longer allow myself to be part of what I see as a HUGE problem in this country...apathy, indifference and an abandonment of things I hold dear.
...
Trust me... you'll have to look far and wide to find anyone that loves America more than me. And yes... America is flawed... and it's political system is a joke. But, right now... it's all we have. And yes, it's a choice between shit or crap... death by weed whacker or bolt cutters. But it comes down to who you believe will do the LEAST amount of harm to our nation. It's a terrible situation that we, as voters, help to perpetuate.
...
And the change doesn't come from the White House... it comes from Congress. What americans need to do is fire their Representatives. If I had a 12% job approval rating... I'd be out of a job. But, we keep hiring these fools.. then, we complain about them.
Voters need to send a message. Fire the incumbant... I don't care who is holding that seat... Senator Kennedy, Senator Feinstein, Senator McCain, Senator Clinton, Senator Obama and anyone currently in the House. Juist don't vote for any incumbant... vote for anyone else.
I can guarantee you... that if this ever happens... just once... where the American voter finally says, "YOU ARE FIRED!!! NOW, GET THE HELL OUT!!!"... that's all it would take to make those fuckers shake in their shoes and get shit done. and it would reverberate all the way through the White House.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Trust me... you'll have to look far and wide to find anyone that loves America more than me. And yes... America is flawed... and it's political system is a joke. But, right now... it's all we have. And yes, it's a choice between shit or crap... death by weed whacker or bolt cutters. But it comes down to who you believe will do the LEAST amount of harm to our nation. It's a terrible situation that we, as voters, help to perpetuate.
...
And the change doesn't come from the White House... it comes from Congress. What americans need to do is fire their Representatives. If I had a 12% job approval rating... I'd be out of a job. But, we keep hiring these fools.. then, we complain about them.
Voters need to send a message. Fire the incumbant... I don't care who is holding that seat... Senator Kennedy, Senator Feinstein, Senator McCain, Senator Clinton, Senator Obama and anyone currently in the House. Juist don't vote for any incumbant... vote for anyone else.
I can guarantee you... that if this ever happens... just once... where the American voter finally says, "YOU ARE FIRED!!! NOW, GET THE HELL OUT!!!"... that's all it would take to make those fuckers shake in their shoes and get shit done. and it would reverberate all the way through the White House.
Yep, you seem to understand things.
I'm glad you mention taking over Congress, everyone focuses on the Presidency when the win can come from somewhere else.
If you keep yourself as the final arbiter you will be less susceptible to infection from cultural illusion.
They keep mentioning the Supreme Court seats every election.
There is also the excuse being used by Dems for why they backed down after their victory in 2006 to "End the War".
Always Tiptoeing to the next election.
Tiptoes Tiptoes Tiptoes
..
No... not in every election. have you heard anything about it in this election?
...
In 2000, there were 3 ancient seats in the Court. Rehnquist, Stevens and Kennedy. Stevens (age 88) and Kennedy (age 84) are still seated. I was shocked when O'Connor dropped out. It was VERY likely that 4 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices would have been George W. Bush appointees, including the Chief Justice.
That may not scare you... it scares me. But, it should at least... creep you out.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
..
No... not in every election. have you heard anything about it in this election?
...
In 2000, there were 3 ancient seats in the Court. Rehnquist, Stevens and Kennedy. Stevens (age 88) and Kennedy (age 84) are still seated. I was shocked when O'Connor dropped out. It was VERY likely that 4 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices would have been George W. Bush appointees, including the Chief Justice.
That may not scare you... it scares me. But, it should at least... creep you out.
Not as much as in 2000, but when talk about third party folks is on the radio and also with friends I've heard it mentioned a few times.
I'm creeped out by pretty much everything in our broken system. 8o)
Its hard for many of us to stay involved.
If you keep yourself as the final arbiter you will be less susceptible to infection from cultural illusion.
..
No... not in every election. have you heard anything about it in this election?
...
In 2000, there were 3 ancient seats in the Court. Rehnquist, Stevens and Kennedy. Stevens (age 88) and Kennedy (age 84) are still seated. I was shocked when O'Connor dropped out. It was VERY likely that 4 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices would have been George W. Bush appointees, including the Chief Justice.
That may not scare you... it scares me. But, it should at least... creep you out.
Just saw an article today on CNN where McCain was talking about getting more conservative with the supreme court. It will be a talking point eventually in this race. It's one of the most terrifying aspects, and I'm so glad W didn't get the 4 you mentioned. But if McCain wins and gets to fill the seats you pointed out, we could have a very, very scary couple of decades.
When Jesus said "Love your enemies" he probably didn't mean kill them...
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
Comments
All third party candidates running in 2000 in Florida received more votes than the
difference between Gore and Bush, as well.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i keep hearing nader cost gore the election but is there any actual evidence of this even if we are to assume all nader votes would have went to gore?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=276261
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I agree....saying 3rd party candidates "steal" votes is incorrect...
personally, I think people should vote for whomever that want...
however, history has shown, supporting 3rd party candidates may have unintended consequences...
We could say the same about whomever you support if they don't win, then.
If you all voted for Nader in 2000 instead Blah Gore then Bush wouldn't have won.
So I think it's best to use your right to vote in this democracy towards voting for the person who best represents your own voice.
Nader best represents mine.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
If you have strong canidates... competition should bring out the best in them and show people why they are the best canidates... The absolute weakness of the career politicians our major parties have provided are the entire reason anyone would run third party. For all the talk of disenfranchisement.... what about the people that say the hell with this.... these people are all essentially status quo this is not what I want?
I've been kind of amused especially by Hillary Clinton's treatment of this election especially early on as if a nomination was something that should just be handed to her... I put in my time I'm experienced give it to me now I want it. She's like Veruca Salt. Gore almost had the same attitude but just less fortitude.
McCain is almost the same way except the Republican party I guess had no one else. He was a much better canidate than Bush 8 years ago they screwed up royally and pushed the wrong guy and they shit on him and I guess now they feel bad about it?
Thanks Political Strategists....
Where is the substance in debates? It's just hollow and empty now.
really...? my vote for Obama won't lead to Nader winning...
I do know that much...
sounds good to me...
that's brilliant!!!
The votes for Obama instead of Nader will keep Nader from winning going by your logic. Also your vote for Obama and mine vote for Nader could possibly lead to McCain winning so how is Nader anymore to blame than Obama? None of that should matter. The point is simple, the Democratic Party does not automatically deserve anyone's vote just because they are not Republicans. That kind of thinking has lead to their corruption and extreme lack of accountability. They treat voters as if they are the only alternative so they can do as they please because lefties will all line up and vote for them anyways. Not this voter.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
all I said is this:
history has shown, supporting 3rd party candidates may have unintended consequences...
I also said:
personally, I think people should vote for whomever that want...
The number of votes that Bush beat Gore in Florida were a result of a vote count that was stopped by the Supreme Court right?
It was just stopped while Bush was in the lead right?
Thats where the number comes from? They didn't finish counting.
I know but I have to give a counter argument to that sentiment even if you're not advocating people making their vote based on it because that line of thinking...that fear of a Republican winning, is what's causing this problem
in the first place.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Because no matter how we try to justify it... Perot voters were mostly voters more likely to vote for Bush (41) over Clinton and those whom voted for Nader in 2000 would have voted for Gore over Bush.
Test it. If you voted for Nader in 2000... you people reading this. If Nader was not on the scene... let's pretend he doesn't exist... who would you have voted for is 2000? Bush or Gore?
I'm going out on a limb here and saying Gore. And I don't think I have to go too far out.
Hail, Hail!!!
ok...
also, I'm glad you can see that I'm not steering anyone away from voting 3rd party...but you have to admit, voting 3rd party can have consequences.....
I'm just saying...that's all...:)
I think Perot seemed to draw evenly from the D's and R's from the stats I've seen
You mean if by law you could only vote for one of the two parties? I guess I would have voted for Gore.
I didn't trust him then because of Clinton and voted for Nader.
We are not limited to two parties in the U.S. so we have the choice to vote for who we think is the best.
What happened in 2000 was 100% the Supreme Court
None of this should matter. People should be encouraged to vote for who best represents their views....not whomever the horrid ineffectual two party system puts out there for us to choose from. Democracy is about having a say in a society and how it will be ran. I'll be damned if others are going to choose what my chance to have a say will be. I'm not voting for numbers, I'm voting for ideas. I'm not voting for the most money, I'm voting for the most deserving in my eyes.
If you have centerist views then a centerist third party works for you...if not then look for someone who better fits your ideals.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Example: Bush has a 29% approval rating. Let's say that the 29% translates into 29% of the popular votes. all you need to do is lock in 22% of the rest of us and you win... 51 to 49.
Granted, that 29% are the ones who Tina Fey said, "Believes that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church one Sunday"... but, still... it's 29%.
Hail, Hail!!!
Just as you can say that voting for these two ineffectual and corrupt parties has had it's consequences....
just sayin'
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
But, i personally felt that 2000 was too important to demo out a Third Party (sorry). Why? Because there was the emminent seating of at least one Supreme Court seat... possibly up to 3. That was my fear... the Religious Christian Right seating Supreme Court Justices who would argue in making this nation a Christian Theocracy.
And it's not anti-Christian... if it were leaning towards a Jewish State or a Muslim Theocracy or a Scientology Theocracy... I'd feel the same way. I believe in the seperation of Church and State... ANY Church and State.
Hail, Hail!!!
But we can't keep voting in fear. We have every opportunity as a nation to vote for people who would do a waaaaaaay better job than the parties and the people within them we currently elect time and time again.
The two parties rely on the population to think they have no other choice except to vote for them. So they essentially get away with murder, pandering and not representing their constituents year after year. Their answer: 'At least I'm not as bad as this guy' in other words 'At least I'm slightly better than shit.' Meh, save it. I'm at my breaking point and will no longer allow myself to be part of what I see as a HUGE problem in this country...apathy, indifference and an abandonment of things I hold dear.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Generally you're correct, and I have no argument.
But polarize it more. Let's say we knew exactly what W would do in the next 4-8 years in 2000. And let's say there's a viable Dem and a viable 3rd that leans left (just as in 2000). Now, democratically speaking, of course you can vote for whomever you choose. But if you know that voting for the 3rd party may have the slimmest chance of knocking the Dem out, would you still vote for the 3rd?
I have a real hard time with this, because I completely agree with your post. At the same time though, I cannot imagine this country led by McCain (well, I can, it's been the last 8 years and I'm sick of it). If Hilldog or O8ama were to start a 3rd party campaign because they didn't get the nomination you can bet they'd take more Dems with them than Repubs. Would that scenario change the way you thought about things?
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
Pretty much answered my question. And before I posted it. Well done.
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
There is also the excuse being used by Dems for why they backed down after their victory in 2006 to "End the War".
Always Tiptoeing to the next election.
Tiptoes Tiptoes Tiptoes
so eloquent.....thanks abook....i've been thinking this since 1992....:)
Trust me... you'll have to look far and wide to find anyone that loves America more than me. And yes... America is flawed... and it's political system is a joke. But, right now... it's all we have. And yes, it's a choice between shit or crap... death by weed whacker or bolt cutters. But it comes down to who you believe will do the LEAST amount of harm to our nation. It's a terrible situation that we, as voters, help to perpetuate.
...
And the change doesn't come from the White House... it comes from Congress. What americans need to do is fire their Representatives. If I had a 12% job approval rating... I'd be out of a job. But, we keep hiring these fools.. then, we complain about them.
Voters need to send a message. Fire the incumbant... I don't care who is holding that seat... Senator Kennedy, Senator Feinstein, Senator McCain, Senator Clinton, Senator Obama and anyone currently in the House. Juist don't vote for any incumbant... vote for anyone else.
I can guarantee you... that if this ever happens... just once... where the American voter finally says, "YOU ARE FIRED!!! NOW, GET THE HELL OUT!!!"... that's all it would take to make those fuckers shake in their shoes and get shit done. and it would reverberate all the way through the White House.
Hail, Hail!!!
Yep, you seem to understand things.
I'm glad you mention taking over Congress, everyone focuses on the Presidency when the win can come from somewhere else.
By all means Nader would have been preferable. Common ground.
No... not in every election. have you heard anything about it in this election?
...
In 2000, there were 3 ancient seats in the Court. Rehnquist, Stevens and Kennedy. Stevens (age 88) and Kennedy (age 84) are still seated. I was shocked when O'Connor dropped out. It was VERY likely that 4 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices would have been George W. Bush appointees, including the Chief Justice.
That may not scare you... it scares me. But, it should at least... creep you out.
Hail, Hail!!!
Not as much as in 2000, but when talk about third party folks is on the radio and also with friends I've heard it mentioned a few times.
I'm creeped out by pretty much everything in our broken system. 8o)
Its hard for many of us to stay involved.
Just saw an article today on CNN where McCain was talking about getting more conservative with the supreme court. It will be a talking point eventually in this race. It's one of the most terrifying aspects, and I'm so glad W didn't get the 4 you mentioned. But if McCain wins and gets to fill the seats you pointed out, we could have a very, very scary couple of decades.
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy