Keeping Men out of Women's Sports

Spunkie

mickeyrat said:

provencial championship.  define that please.  like a single league tournament or mutilple leagues?

how many games in the season and how many more leading up to this and for this tournament?

You can look up BC soccer rules. They send the top two teams from the island, the top two teams from the Vancouver area, the top two teams from the Okanagan, and the top two teams from the Kootenays. Something like that. I don't know how many Games that were this season but many members on this team were in an academy for 5 years. Not us. 

Pipsqueak trained all year with only a couple weeks off in the summer to play for the last few months may - July. She also trained the previous year as a training player on a top team with an amazing coach and simultaneously competed for her first year in order to become a better player so she could get on this team. She's was playing like 5 days a week on average her first year. She also scored 100 goals that year.

Vancouver has a different season than us. 

I'll check with another and see if she's feeling better. her vision is slowly getting better. Concussive care requires lot of rest. 

OnWis97

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Regarding email signatures, I was on board with that immediately before I even thought of gender identity because if someone was named Chris, Blair, etc., I didn't know whether to say Mr. or Ms. when writing a formal letter or something. Given recent trends, even if someone is named Jonathan or Bonnie, I do what I can to avoid Mr/Ms. The world's changing and I think we'll get used to it. But I am noticing that this generally left-leaning group is struggling with it.

Funny story: in 2008, I'd just started a job and was in an internal meeting that left me with several tasks including contacting someone named Jack. At some point I said "blah blah blah, so I'll get in touch with Jack and after I talk to him..." and everyone laughed. Turns out Jack was just how a woman named Jacqueline shortened her name. When the email signatures started popping up, I thought of that moment at times. 

That's a situation that people laugh off though. If you innocently confuse a man (named Chris/Pat, etc.) and refer to him as "her" it gets laughed off instead of everyone getting offended and pissed off.

I agree...but that in itself doesn't mean it's wrong to make your gender known pre-emptively.

The English language is weird when it comes to gender/sex and certain terms:

• Parents/Mom/Dad: Both options
• Bro/Sis/Sibling: Both Options
• Cousin: Gender-neutral only
• Aunt/Uncle: Gender-specific only

And we address people, formally, as Mr/Ms (when we know). 

For whatever reason(s), the language evolved without pronouns that work with gender-uncertainty (i.e., even in the good old days when men were men and women were women). And now that we've hit a new wave of change, the language creates more confusion. I'm not too concerned, though, we'll adjust to this like we always do...wait, now I'm hearing "cis" is a hate term. Maybe this BS will go away.

cblock4life

Spunkie said:

mickeyrat said:

provencial championship.  define that please.  like a single league tournament or mutilple leagues?

how many games in the season and how many more leading up to this and for this tournament?

You can look up BC soccer rules. They send the top two teams from the island, the top two teams from the Vancouver area, the top two teams from the Okanagan, and the top two teams from the Kootenays. Something like that. I don't know how many Games that were this season but many members on this team were in an academy for 5 years. Not us. 

Pipsqueak trained all year with only a couple weeks off in the summer to play for the last few months may - July. She also trained the previous year as a training player on a top team with an amazing coach and simultaneously competed for her first year in order to become a better player so she could get on this team. She's was playing like 5 days a week on average her first year. She also scored 100 goals that year.

Vancouver has a different season than us. 

I'll check with another and see if she's feeling better. her vision is slowly getting better. Concussive care requires lot of rest. 

I hope she gets through it successfully.  I think about all those years that the word concussion was in nobody’s vocabulary.  Also, thanks for cutting mickeyrat a break.  He always means well.  

Finally, what you did organizing the event and making people aware of the violence LGBTQ have suffered is so commendable, but what happened to your daughter is a completely different issue.  You had/have every right to object when it comes to athletes.  All people have rules to follow, situations that don’t allow for all to be involved.  Coming up with a viable alternative solution for the trans athletes isn’t discrimination.  

Parksy

Sorry in advance Spunk... the thread has swerved into interesting territory. 

[

• King Arthur: Old woman!
• Dennis: Man.
• King Arthur: Man, sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there?
• Dennis: I'm 37.
• King Arthur: What?
• Dennis: I'm 37. I'm not old.
• King Arthur: Well I can't just call you "man".
• Dennis: Well you could say "Dennis".
• King Arthur: I didn't know you were called Dennis.
• Dennis: Well you didn't bother to find out, did you?
• King Arthur: I did say sorry about the "old woman", but from behind you looked...
• Dennis: What I object to is you automatically treat me like an inferior.
• King Arthur: Well, I am king.
• Dennis: Oh, king eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers. By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.]

This scene has taken a whole new meaning lately. lol

What fascinates me is that there are things to learn here.  On one hand.... Dennis isn't wrong in that Arthur could have taken the time to verify things before his misstated. 

On the other hand, it's an honest mistake and Dennis should just chill. lol

Darth mentioned it before... leniency is needed on both sides of the equation. 

curmudgeoness

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

Gern Blansten said:

My wife has a facebook friend who we've known for several years. Her daughter has always been a bit tomboyish but she recently "came out" as they/them (new to me still but whatever...aren't you really just coming out as bisexual or homosexual?...no idea)

Gender identity and sexual preference are two different things. 

Gender identity = regardless of your chromosomes, do you feel more like a man? a woman? neither?

Bisexual = you are attracted to both males and females, regardless of your own gender. (Some people now prefer "pansexual," which means attracted to any gender identity.)

Ok but for a 15/16 year old (I have four adult children now) I would think that it is more likely a confused young adult that is likely attracted to females. I'm no expert by any stretch though.

Well, as I tried to articulate above, I tend to believe that gender dysphoria (the discomfort and anguish caused by the feeling that one is living in the wrong body/ as the wrong gender) is overdiagnosed. I suspect (again, not an expert) that many young people who declare that they are trans or gender-queer are mislabeling more common phenomena such as OCD, anxiety, trauma, social pressures.

My understanding is that there is no connection between gender identity and sexual preference: a transwoman might have a male partner, a female partner, a trans partner. And, speaking from personal experience, I can say that bisexuality has nothing to do with gender confusion -- I'm not sure of much in life, but I've never had any doubt that I'm a woman. :-)

Spunkie

✓ well done parksy. When our team board members get back to me you think I should just roll with whatever they're feeling or press the matter?

mickeyrat

Spunkie said:

mickeyrat said:

provencial championship.  define that please.  like a single league tournament or mutilple leagues?

how many games in the season and how many more leading up to this and for this tournament?

You can look up BC soccer rules. They send the top two teams from the island, the top two teams from the Vancouver area, the top two teams from the Okanagan, and the top two teams from the Kootenays. Something like that. I don't know how many Games that were this season but many members on this team were in an academy for 5 years. Not us. 

Pipsqueak trained all year with only a couple weeks off in the summer to play for the last few months may - July. She also trained the previous year as a training player on a top team with an amazing coach and simultaneously competed for her first year in order to become a better player so she could get on this team. She's was playing like 5 days a week on average her first year. She also scored 100 goals that year.

Vancouver has a different season than us. 

I'll check with another and see if she's feeling better. her vision is slowly getting better. Concussive care requires lot of rest. 

dont recall sering this mentioned. you said she did in fact score on the punched ball. did they win?

edit to ask, what your daughters opinion on all this is? on that player, the play in question and just in general on the topic at hand?

Spunkie

Ya, they beat em.

I'll ask the little one later...

Parksy

Spunkie said:

✓ well done parksy. When our team board members get back to me you think I should just roll with whatever they're feeling or press the matter?

totally up to your comfort level... I would press the matter.  

I think a lot of organizations are making decisions without logic and rationale. Your situation is interestingly unique as it relates to health and safety.   Ask them these questions:

1. Why do weight classes exist in combat sports?
2. Why do men not fight women in combat sports? 
3. Is there any case law in the land that suggests a penalty for an assault would be greater if an assault were committed against a heavy male versus a light female?  Or even just simply male vs female. (the answer is yes.) 

When they admit the obvious answer... they may come to the natural conclusion that yes there is a chance they are putting people at risk. And then, they must accept that risk, or start getting players to sign waivers which would cause one heck of a shit storm. 

I think a handful of folks here have suggested this.... generally speaking... one person's freedom cannot infringe on another persons especially as it relates to safety.    (that logic has yet to apply in America with their gun laws) 

lastexitlondon

What English team does your daughter support may I suggest arsenal. Then I can send her a shirt 

Spunkie

That's very sweet. Thank you.

I don't think she knows many English teams. We just watched women's FIFA soccer last summer. I was tempted to go to Europe to catch an Olympic game and Pearl jam for her, but no, we visited already a couple times. She's at the point where she's researching which universities have the best teams. I'll just be happy if she keeps playing this into her teen years and doesn't become addicted to nicotine by meeting other healthy athletes for friends.

i appreciate the sentiment, thank you nonetheless, and I'll tell her. She knows how special my UK listening show t-shirt is to me!

Spunkie

Parksy said:

Spunkie said:

✓ well done parksy. When our team board members get back to me you think I should just roll with whatever they're feeling or press the matter?

totally up to your comfort level... I would press the matter.  

I think a lot of organizations are making decisions without logic and rationale. Your situation is interestingly unique as it relates to health and safety.   Ask them these questions:

1. Why do weight classes exist in combat sports?
2. Why do men not fight women in combat sports? 
3. Is there any case law in the land that suggests a penalty for an assault would be greater if an assault were committed against a heavy male versus a light female?  Or even just simply male vs female. (the answer is yes.) 

When they admit the obvious answer... they may come to the natural conclusion that yes there is a chance they are putting people at risk. And then, they must accept that risk, or start getting players to sign waivers which would cause one heck of a shit storm. 

I think a handful of folks here have suggested this.... generally speaking... one person's freedom cannot infringe on another persons especially as it relates to safety.    (that logic has yet to apply in America with their gun laws) 

Thank you for presenting me with these questions. When my coach gets back to me after talking to his superiors and colleagues, I'll put forth this argument.

tempo_n_groove

mickeyrat said:

Spunkie said:

mickeyrat said:

provencial championship.  define that please.  like a single league tournament or mutilple leagues?

how many games in the season and how many more leading up to this and for this tournament?

You can look up BC soccer rules. They send the top two teams from the island, the top two teams from the Vancouver area, the top two teams from the Okanagan, and the top two teams from the Kootenays. Something like that. I don't know how many Games that were this season but many members on this team were in an academy for 5 years. Not us. 

Pipsqueak trained all year with only a couple weeks off in the summer to play for the last few months may - July. She also trained the previous year as a training player on a top team with an amazing coach and simultaneously competed for her first year in order to become a better player so she could get on this team. She's was playing like 5 days a week on average her first year. She also scored 100 goals that year.

Vancouver has a different season than us. 

I'll check with another and see if she's feeling better. her vision is slowly getting better. Concussive care requires lot of rest. 

dont recall sering this mentioned. you said she did in fact score on the punched ball. did they win?

edit to ask, what your daughters opinion on all this is? on that player, the play in question and just in general on the topic at hand?

Still going huh?

mickeyrat

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

Spunkie said:

mickeyrat said:

provencial championship.  define that please.  like a single league tournament or mutilple leagues?

how many games in the season and how many more leading up to this and for this tournament?

You can look up BC soccer rules. They send the top two teams from the island, the top two teams from the Vancouver area, the top two teams from the Okanagan, and the top two teams from the Kootenays. Something like that. I don't know how many Games that were this season but many members on this team were in an academy for 5 years. Not us. 

Pipsqueak trained all year with only a couple weeks off in the summer to play for the last few months may - July. She also trained the previous year as a training player on a top team with an amazing coach and simultaneously competed for her first year in order to become a better player so she could get on this team. She's was playing like 5 days a week on average her first year. She also scored 100 goals that year.

Vancouver has a different season than us. 

I'll check with another and see if she's feeling better. her vision is slowly getting better. Concussive care requires lot of rest. 

dont recall sering this mentioned. you said she did in fact score on the punched ball. did they win?

edit to ask, what your daughters opinion on all this is? on that player, the play in question and just in general on the topic at hand?

Still going huh?

we have spunkie's viewpoint. thought it informative to ask for the opinion of her daughters because A. she's the one directly affected by this specific play B. because as spunkie shares in other threads , she is raising a fairly progressive compassionate empathetic human by my understanding.

finally spunkie seemed receptive to the ask.

so do go on.

tempo_n_groove

mickeyrat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

Spunkie said:

mickeyrat said:

provencial championship.  define that please.  like a single league tournament or mutilple leagues?

how many games in the season and how many more leading up to this and for this tournament?

You can look up BC soccer rules. They send the top two teams from the island, the top two teams from the Vancouver area, the top two teams from the Okanagan, and the top two teams from the Kootenays. Something like that. I don't know how many Games that were this season but many members on this team were in an academy for 5 years. Not us. 

Pipsqueak trained all year with only a couple weeks off in the summer to play for the last few months may - July. She also trained the previous year as a training player on a top team with an amazing coach and simultaneously competed for her first year in order to become a better player so she could get on this team. She's was playing like 5 days a week on average her first year. She also scored 100 goals that year.

Vancouver has a different season than us. 

I'll check with another and see if she's feeling better. her vision is slowly getting better. Concussive care requires lot of rest. 

dont recall sering this mentioned. you said she did in fact score on the punched ball. did they win?

edit to ask, what your daughters opinion on all this is? on that player, the play in question and just in general on the topic at hand?

Still going huh?

we have spunkie's viewpoint. thought it informative to ask for the opinion of her daughters because A. she's the one directly affected by this specific play B. because as spunkie shares in other threads , she is raising a fairly progressive compassionate empathetic human by my understanding.

finally spunkie seemed receptive to the ask.

so do go on.

Didn't come off that way from your first post Hoss. If you are being genuine then i will yield and am sorry.  Text and tone comes off differently sometimes. I wasn't the only one to notice though.

mickeyrat

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

Spunkie said:

mickeyrat said:

provencial championship.  define that please.  like a single league tournament or mutilple leagues?

how many games in the season and how many more leading up to this and for this tournament?

You can look up BC soccer rules. They send the top two teams from the island, the top two teams from the Vancouver area, the top two teams from the Okanagan, and the top two teams from the Kootenays. Something like that. I don't know how many Games that were this season but many members on this team were in an academy for 5 years. Not us. 

Pipsqueak trained all year with only a couple weeks off in the summer to play for the last few months may - July. She also trained the previous year as a training player on a top team with an amazing coach and simultaneously competed for her first year in order to become a better player so she could get on this team. She's was playing like 5 days a week on average her first year. She also scored 100 goals that year.

Vancouver has a different season than us. 

I'll check with another and see if she's feeling better. her vision is slowly getting better. Concussive care requires lot of rest. 

dont recall sering this mentioned. you said she did in fact score on the punched ball. did they win?

edit to ask, what your daughters opinion on all this is? on that player, the play in question and just in general on the topic at hand?

Still going huh?

we have spunkie's viewpoint. thought it informative to ask for the opinion of her daughters because A. she's the one directly affected by this specific play B. because as spunkie shares in other threads , she is raising a fairly progressive compassionate empathetic human by my understanding.

finally spunkie seemed receptive to the ask.

so do go on.

Didn't come off that way from your first post Hoss. If you are being genuine then i will yield and am sorry.  Text and tone comes off differently sometimes. I wasn't the only one to notice though.

my first post in the thread HOSS. but do go on.

mickeyrat
mickeyrat
July 8 Flag
some sports differ from others. i e. physicality vs skill etc. whats considered a contact sport vs non. Soccer IS a contact sport.

I think its a different question as it relates to school age kids competing vs young adult/adult. as well as prepubescent vs pubescent  age groups.

not having kids I dont have skin in the game as it were. but I wonder if hormone level testing is appropriate/needed? 

I then posted later a truth in that that injury was possible to occur in other ways. you take attitude or tone from those posts, thats on you.

mickeyrat

you know its interesting. My sophmore yr in HS my school district added soccer as a varsity sport. boys only. We did have a female player on our team . the core of the team had come up together in a ymca league so we were solid . it took a few to absorb her and adjust to her play , but we did it but that was so with the boys who hadnt played with the core team yet. and there was no grumbling or pushback that I can recall from the rest of the team.

tempo_n_groove

mickeyrat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

Spunkie said:

mickeyrat said:

provencial championship.  define that please.  like a single league tournament or mutilple leagues?

how many games in the season and how many more leading up to this and for this tournament?

You can look up BC soccer rules. They send the top two teams from the island, the top two teams from the Vancouver area, the top two teams from the Okanagan, and the top two teams from the Kootenays. Something like that. I don't know how many Games that were this season but many members on this team were in an academy for 5 years. Not us. 

Pipsqueak trained all year with only a couple weeks off in the summer to play for the last few months may - July. She also trained the previous year as a training player on a top team with an amazing coach and simultaneously competed for her first year in order to become a better player so she could get on this team. She's was playing like 5 days a week on average her first year. She also scored 100 goals that year.

Vancouver has a different season than us. 

I'll check with another and see if she's feeling better. her vision is slowly getting better. Concussive care requires lot of rest. 

dont recall sering this mentioned. you said she did in fact score on the punched ball. did they win?

edit to ask, what your daughters opinion on all this is? on that player, the play in question and just in general on the topic at hand?

Still going huh?

we have spunkie's viewpoint. thought it informative to ask for the opinion of her daughters because A. she's the one directly affected by this specific play B. because as spunkie shares in other threads , she is raising a fairly progressive compassionate empathetic human by my understanding.

finally spunkie seemed receptive to the ask.

so do go on.

Didn't come off that way from your first post Hoss. If you are being genuine then i will yield and am sorry.  Text and tone comes off differently sometimes. I wasn't the only one to notice though.

my first post in the thread HOSS. but do go on.

mickeyrat
mickeyrat
July 8 Flag
some sports differ from others. i e. physicality vs skill etc. whats considered a contact sport vs non. Soccer IS a contact sport.

I think its a different question as it relates to school age kids competing vs young adult/adult. as well as prepubescent vs pubescent  age groups.

not having kids I dont have skin in the game as it were. but I wonder if hormone level testing is appropriate/needed? 

I then posted later a truth in that that injury was possible to occur in other ways. you take attitude or tone from those posts, thats on you.

I had argued that people that have "skin in the game" should make these decisions and was of course belittled for having that opinion. I do realize that I do have the right, as do you, to take an opinion on this.

Hormone testing is an interesting take. Can you imagine the outrage that would cause? I understand the thought of it but the can of worms and possible rights violations that would open would be epic.

Imagine a girl or boy getting tested and found to have lower or higher T or E levels and the other students found out?

lastexitlondon

mickeyrat said:

you know its interesting. My sophmore yr in HS my school district added soccer as a varsity sport. boys only. We did have a female player on our team . the core of the team had come up together in a ymca league so we were solid but that was so with the boys who hadnt played with the core team yet.. it took a few to absorb her and adjust to her play , but we did it. and there was no grumbling or pushback that I can recall from the rest of the team.

Girls and boys play mixed here at a very young age. Not at puberty age. For good reason 

mickeyrat

lastexitlondon said:

mickeyrat said:

you know its interesting. My sophmore yr in HS my school district added soccer as a varsity sport. boys only. We did have a female player on our team . the core of the team had come up together in a ymca league so we were solid but that was so with the boys who hadnt played with the core team yet.. it took a few to absorb her and adjust to her play , but we did it. and there was no grumbling or pushback that I can recall from the rest of the team.

Girls and boys play mixed here at a very young age. Not at puberty age. For good reason 

that yr we were 15-16 yr olds....