Keeping Men out of Women's Sports

Spunkie

After UBC trained me as a scholar-practitioner not to use male and female terms, when I first started yelling "go girls" I would stop myself and think I made an error.

When I was doing a lesson on the four food chiefs which is the local Sylix Indigenous people beliefs on the unceded territory on which I was practicing, the principal didn't want me to teach the male and female genders that correspond to the chiefs (along with young and old).

brianlux

Spunkie said:

I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 

No one has explained that to me to my satisfaction.  A human being is either a male, a female, a hermaphrodite, or has been surgically and chemically altered to become the opposite sex they were born as (a practice that to me sounds like mutilation, but if someone wants to do that, that's their business and their right).  Is there really such a thing as a gender neutral human?  I doubt it.

Spunkie

Well we might as well add the complexity of  First Nation, Inuit, Metis belief systems into the mix if we're going to talk about gender identity in BC soccer that occurs on unceded territory.

brianlux

Spunkie said:

Well we might as well add the complexity of  First Nation, Inuit, Metis belief systems into the mix if we're going to talk about gender identity in BC soccer that occurs on unceded territory.

What are their beliefs related to gender?

Spunkie

Make, female, old, young for the four directions on medicine wheel for Sylix. Siya)(Saskatoon berry) young, fish/male, bear/old, Bitterroot/female.

Two-spirit revered.

I have a hard to keep up with the  preferred term for the gender reassignment surgery. I think there's a new way to say it. I only knew transvestite 20 years ago before I learned transgendered bri.

Gern Blansten

brianlux said:

Spunkie said:

I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 

No one has explained that to me to my satisfaction.  A human being is either a male, a female, a hermaphrodite, or has been surgically and chemically altered to become the opposite sex they were born as (a practice that to me sounds like mutilation, but if someone wants to do that, that's their business and their right).  Is there really such a thing as a gender neutral human?  I doubt it.

Yeah I don't get it either. I don't want to intentionally ever insult someone or make them feel like a lesser being but I don't get the they/them stuff.

Sounds schizophrenic to me. Like there is a male and female being existing in the same body which isn't the case.

He or her...that's it. If you are a he that is now a her that's fine. But you are one or the other. 

DarthMaeglin

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

Spunkie said:

I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 

No one has explained that to me to my satisfaction.  A human being is either a male, a female, a hermaphrodite, or has been surgically and chemically altered to become the opposite sex they were born as (a practice that to me sounds like mutilation, but if someone wants to do that, that's their business and their right).  Is there really such a thing as a gender neutral human?  I doubt it.

Yeah I don't get it either. I don't want to intentionally ever insult someone or make them feel like a lesser being but I don't get the they/them stuff.

Sounds schizophrenic to me. Like there is a male and female being existing in the same body which isn't the case.

He or her...that's it. If you are a he that is now a her that's fine. But you are one or the other. 

Part of why I’ve incorporated they/them is as a potential compromise for those who have difficulty referring to trans people with their identified gender pronouns. I strongly feel that people should be allowed to be uncomfortable with this whole concept and not be labeled transphobic or something. We need patience and openness on both sides.

 I can’t truly conceive it but it has to be an awkward and strange place to exist when one genuinely feels out of sync with their own body in this way and can’t feel anything but sympathy for them.

However I do think that when it comes to sport, regardless of where someone is in the transitioning process they should compete in their birth gender until a third (actually there should be 2 new divisions for each transition, male-to-female and female-to-male) division is established. And on some levels I still feel badly making that statement but the facts of biology are already well established here.

pjl44

The pronoun thing is tricky. You see the exercise get co-opted by narcissists which leaves many people cynical. I worked with someone in HR who requested you use "she/they/elle." You get hit with some boutique blends and the threat of a scolding if you don't get it right. It's a shame that the upshot is the cynicism winds up extending to trans women who would just like to be she and trans men who would just like to be he.

brianlux

Spunkie said:

Make, female, old, young for the four directions on medicine wheel for Sylix. Siya)(Saskatoon berry) young, fish/male, bear/old, Bitterroot/female.

Two-spirit revered.

I have a hard to keep up with the  preferred term for the gender reassignment surgery. I think there's a new way to say it. I only knew transvestite 20 years ago before I learned transgendered bri.

Interesting.  It's amazing how indigenous people are often seen as over-simplified.  Their beliefs can be very complex.  I also like something I read recently by a native writer (I wish I could remember who it is) who said, "I don't like our stories being called 'myths'.  Our stories explain our beliefs and should be given more respect."  Something like that.  It was great.

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

Spunkie said:

I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 

No one has explained that to me to my satisfaction.  A human being is either a male, a female, a hermaphrodite, or has been surgically and chemically altered to become the opposite sex they were born as (a practice that to me sounds like mutilation, but if someone wants to do that, that's their business and their right).  Is there really such a thing as a gender neutral human?  I doubt it.

Yeah I don't get it either. I don't want to intentionally ever insult someone or make them feel like a lesser being but I don't get the they/them stuff.

Sounds schizophrenic to me. Like there is a male and female being existing in the same body which isn't the case.

He or her...that's it. If you are a he that is now a her that's fine. But you are one or the other. 

Right!  Same here.  I don't want to offend anyone.  

But what concerns me is that I think a lot of (especially) younger people are making rash decisions about sexuality based on emotion, without a balance of clear thinking.  

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with questioning.  Paul Westerberg said in a song called "Sixteen Blue" this:  "You're wondering to yourself that you might be gay."  Nothing wrong with that.  I asked myself that very question- probably because I've had gay friends I really care for.  But, sorry guys, I don't want to sleep with you.  I'm not attracted to you that way. 

Gern Blansten

pjl44 said:

The pronoun thing is tricky. You see the exercise get co-opted by narcissists which leaves many people cynical. I worked with someone in HR who requested you use "she/they/elle." You get hit with some boutique blends and the threat of a scolding if you don't get it right. It's a shame that the upshot is the cynicism winds up extending to trans women who would just like to be she and trans men who would just like to be he.

I'm surprised at the number of emails I receive where pronouns are listed in peoples signature lines. We really need this now?

lastexitlondon

Yeah we get that here too it's just pathetic to me. I guess I'm old

Gern Blansten

If you were to ask someone "did you hear back from him yet?"

should that really be "did you hear back from them yet?"....even though you are referring to a singular person?

lastexitlondon

It's like "got ya" you said it wrong 

lastexitlondon

Exactly I'm 49 I don't need stupid games  to make out I'm trying to offend. Out of nothing 

HughFreakingDillon

Gern Blansten said:

pjl44 said:

The pronoun thing is tricky. You see the exercise get co-opted by narcissists which leaves many people cynical. I worked with someone in HR who requested you use "she/they/elle." You get hit with some boutique blends and the threat of a scolding if you don't get it right. It's a shame that the upshot is the cynicism winds up extending to trans women who would just like to be she and trans men who would just like to be he.

I'm surprised at the number of emails I receive where pronouns are listed in peoples signature lines. We really need this now?

my company instituted, well, maybe I'll say "strongly encouraged" a policy of your pronouns in your signature. Funny, a few years back they told people it was against company policy to alter your company signature at all. No more designations, like CGA, etc, but now they want everyone to add how they identify themselves. 

I'm not anti trans by an stretch, but I guess part of me wonders why I have to participate in such things to make the 0.01% feel comfortable. We're now in a situation where people are openly wondering "why doesn't Jim have his pronouns in his signature? he must be a BIGOT". 

like when kramer wouldn't wear the AIDS ribbon during the AIDS walk. that was years ahead of its time. 

Gern Blansten

HughFreakingDillon

Joe Rogan is a meathead on many many subjects. But I have to agree with him on this one (and most of you in this thread). Pro trans pro what you do with your own life. But when it starts to affect, or even potentially affect others' safety, that's where I draw the line. 

brianlux

What next?  Add species?

Dear They,

Nice to year from you,

Love,

Brian, he, Human, homo sapien, former Neanderthal

lastexitlondon

Even that will probably offend some being somewhere 

FiveBelow

If biological females/males were only allowed to compete with others of the same biology, none of this would exist. The waters are being muddied for no reason. Identify however you choose, but default to science when competition is involved. If hormone therapy is being used, that could easily be outlined in PEDs and regulated if deemed advantageous. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Sorry this happened, hopefully your daughter makes a full recovery, and common sense makes a comeback.