Keeping Men out of Women's Sports

lastexitlondon

I played football.  The real knid with the feet. For many years if I played against a female I would hurt them badly by my very size and bullishness. It's a different game . That's why there is womens football. Equal.
Mens equal .
There is no more to say on it.

nicknyr15

The fact that this is even a thing is ridiculous. I just feel people are scared to speak out against it because some people just equate that with being trans phobic. Which is also ridiculous. 

pjhawks

I think i'm fairly liberal (ok moderate liberal) but biological males should be nowhere near female sports.  It's just common sense.  And especially in the developing body years.  Those 12-18 years where some kids just grow faster than others.  Just no.

Vitalogensia

I think it’s reasonable to have doubts about this story.  For starters, I do not know the OP nor am I trying to make accusations.  I am not accusing the OP or anyone else of being a liar, or a bigot, nor am I attempting to make any personal attacks.  The point is simply that the story as presented isn’t adding up, and I think there is reason to question the reliability of the post.

First, the OP claims to have co-founded Vancouver’s Day of Remembrance, a day that GLAAD says is day “to honor all those transgender people whose lives were lost to anti-transgender violence”.  The OP claims to regret doing that, and later puts up a post that likens trans athletes to the Special Olympics.  That’s a confusing string of comments to me.

There is also a claim that “my daughter interacted with the larger XY chromosomal goalie”.  First, this may very well be pedantic, but as someone that has lived a rather sports-centric life, I have never heard someone use the word “interacted with” to describe anything that happens in sports.  To me, it sounds like that word was intentionally used to obfuscate the situation, as if there was a direct body-to-body altercation.  The eventual description of what happened proves this in my opinion.

But furthermore, how is it known that the goalie was XY?  Were there genetic tests performed? That would be against the BC Soccer 2023 Rules and Regulations (https://www.bcsoccer.net/media/yi4plx1e/2023-bc-soccer-rules-and-regulations.pdf) which states “For the purposes of registration on gender-based amateur clubs, a player may be assigned to the gender team with which the player identifies. All identifications of gender identity by athletes shall be considered to be made in good faith and shall not require further disclosure or documentation.”

Assuming that the goalie does have X and Y chromosomes, the goalie could possibly have XXY, XYY, XXYY, or XXXXY combinations. Can we count any of those possibilities out, and what possible advantages or disadvantages any of these chromosome variations would affect athletic ability? https://www.childrenscolorado.org/conditions-and-advice/conditions-and-symptoms/conditions/x-y-chromosome-variations/

Do we know if this goalie has been using any gender-affirming care? That is something which absolutely affects athletic performance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10262668/

The OP also references “My 12 year old striker” as well as “a thirteen year old female”.  Well, which is it?  And was the striker playing up a level, or the goalie down a level?  Going back to the organization’s Rules and Regulations, that is possible per the “BC Soccer Playing Down Policy”, but generally speaking, “A player’s age category is determined by the year in which the player was born and registers for”, and there are U-14, U-13, and U-12 levels. So, which level or league are we talking about here?

I’m not claiming to know any of these answers, but I think too many people have jumped to conclusions about the facts without knowing much about the story.  This is a complex, topical, and important thing to debate, for sure, but to me there isn’t enough provided about the story to make determinations about if anyone was in the right or wrong, or what to do about the situation. 

Finally, maybe this snippet of a speech from Professor Robert Sapolsky regarding the neuro-biology of trans-sexuality will be informative and interesting to some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ

pjl44

Havin' a normal one as they say

Gern Blansten

I'm reminded of an incident on my oldest daughter's soccer team. This was probably 12 years ago.

Our goalie clearly had identity issues meaning she looked like a boy, dressed like a boy, etc. After high school she transitioned and is now living life as a male.

But a player's dad on an opposing team had accused her of being a boy during a soccer tournament. I can't say that she was too upset about it but her mother certainly was and I didn't blame her. I remember the mom yelling at the guy because he was suggesting/demanding that someone check her anatomy and he wasn't kidding.

nicknyr15

Vitalogensia said:

I think it’s reasonable to have doubts about this story.  For starters, I do not know the OP nor am I trying to make accusations.  I am not accusing the OP or anyone else of being a liar, or a bigot, nor am I attempting to make any personal attacks.  The point is simply that the story as presented isn’t adding up, and I think there is reason to question the reliability of the post.

First, the OP claims to have co-founded Vancouver’s Day of Remembrance, a day that GLAAD says is day “to honor all those transgender people whose lives were lost to anti-transgender violence”.  The OP claims to regret doing that, and later puts up a post that likens trans athletes to the Special Olympics.  That’s a confusing string of comments to me.

There is also a claim that “my daughter interacted with the larger XY chromosomal goalie”.  First, this may very well be pedantic, but as someone that has lived a rather sports-centric life, I have never heard someone use the word “interacted with” to describe anything that happens in sports.  To me, it sounds like that word was intentionally used to obfuscate the situation, as if there was a direct body-to-body altercation.  The eventual description of what happened proves this in my opinion.

But furthermore, how is it known that the goalie was XY?  Were there genetic tests performed? That would be against the BC Soccer 2023 Rules and Regulations (https://www.bcsoccer.net/media/yi4plx1e/2023-bc-soccer-rules-and-regulations.pdf) which states “For the purposes of registration on gender-based amateur clubs, a player may be assigned to the gender team with which the player identifies. All identifications of gender identity by athletes shall be considered to be made in good faith and shall not require further disclosure or documentation.”

Assuming that the goalie does have X and Y chromosomes, the goalie could possibly have XXY, XYY, XXYY, or XXXXY combinations. Can we count any of those possibilities out, and what possible advantages or disadvantages any of these chromosome variations would affect athletic ability? https://www.childrenscolorado.org/conditions-and-advice/conditions-and-symptoms/conditions/x-y-chromosome-variations/

Do we know if this goalie has been using any gender-affirming care? That is something which absolutely affects athletic performance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10262668/

The OP also references “My 12 year old striker” as well as “a thirteen year old female”.  Well, which is it?  And was the striker playing up a level, or the goalie down a level?  Going back to the organization’s Rules and Regulations, that is possible per the “BC Soccer Playing Down Policy”, but generally speaking, “A player’s age category is determined by the year in which the player was born and registers for”, and there are U-14, U-13, and U-12 levels. So, which level or league are we talking about here?

I’m not claiming to know any of these answers, but I think too many people have jumped to conclusions about the facts without knowing much about the story.  This is a complex, topical, and important thing to debate, for sure, but to me there isn’t enough provided about the story to make determinations about if anyone was in the right or wrong, or what to do about the situation. 

Finally, maybe this snippet of a speech from Professor Robert Sapolsky regarding the neuro-biology of trans-sexuality will be informative and interesting to some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ

Jeez. 

OnWis97

Vitalogensia said:

First, the OP claims to have co-founded Vancouver’s Day of Remembrance, a day that GLAAD says is day “to honor all those transgender people whose lives were lost to anti-transgender violence”.  The OP claims to regret doing that, and later puts up a post that likens trans athletes to the Special Olympics.  That’s a confusing string of comments to me.

This is actually what I was getting at when I said that sports was a gateway...

One could infer (and this may not be the full and only truth) from the first post that the OP went from an active trans ally to anti-trans because of this incident. Taking the story at face value, it directly impacted her and her family. Nevertheless, if it can move a trans ally to anti, imagine what sports (and sports anecdotes) can do to people that are otherwise neutral and just coming into their own on an issue that's relatively new to the spotlight.

brianlux

nicknyr15 said:

The fact that this is even a thing is ridiculous. I just feel people are scared to speak out against it because some people just equate that with being trans phobic. Which is also ridiculous. 

pjhawks said:

I think i'm fairly liberal (ok moderate liberal) but biological males should be nowhere near female sports.  It's just common sense.  And especially in the developing body years.  Those 12-18 years where some kids just grow faster than others.  Just no.

Agreed both.  Very reasonable comments, both.

Spunkie

Vitalogensia said:

I think it’s reasonable to have doubts about this story.  For starters, I do not know the OP nor am I trying to make accusations.  I am not accusing the OP or anyone else of being a liar, or a bigot, nor am I attempting to make any personal attacks.  The point is simply that the story as presented isn’t adding up, and I think there is reason to question the reliability of the post.

First, the OP claims to have co-founded Vancouver’s Day of Remembrance, a day that GLAAD says is day “to honor all those transgender people whose lives were lost to anti-transgender violence”.  The OP claims to regret doing that, and later puts up a post that likens trans athletes to the Special Olympics.  That’s a confusing string of comments to me.

There is also a claim that “my daughter interacted with the larger XY chromosomal goalie”.  First, this may very well be pedantic, but as someone that has lived a rather sports-centric life, I have never heard someone use the word “interacted with” to describe anything that happens in sports.  To me, it sounds like that word was intentionally used to obfuscate the situation, as if there was a direct body-to-body altercation.  The eventual description of what happened proves this in my opinion.

But furthermore, how is it known that the goalie was XY?  Were there genetic tests performed? That would be against the BC Soccer 2023 Rules and Regulations (https://www.bcsoccer.net/media/yi4plx1e/2023-bc-soccer-rules-and-regulations.pdf) which states “For the purposes of registration on gender-based amateur clubs, a player may be assigned to the gender team with which the player identifies. All identifications of gender identity by athletes shall be considered to be made in good faith and shall not require further disclosure or documentation.”

Assuming that the goalie does have X and Y chromosomes, the goalie could possibly have XXY, XYY, XXYY, or XXXXY combinations. Can we count any of those possibilities out, and what possible advantages or disadvantages any of these chromosome variations would affect athletic ability? https://www.childrenscolorado.org/conditions-and-advice/conditions-and-symptoms/conditions/x-y-chromosome-variations/

Do we know if this goalie has been using any gender-affirming care? That is something which absolutely affects athletic performance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10262668/

The OP also references “My 12 year old striker” as well as “a thirteen year old female”.  Well, which is it?  And was the striker playing up a level, or the goalie down a level?  Going back to the organization’s Rules and Regulations, that is possible per the “BC Soccer Playing Down Policy”, but generally speaking, “A player’s age category is determined by the year in which the player was born and registers for”, and there are U-14, U-13, and U-12 levels. So, which level or league are we talking about here?

I’m not claiming to know any of these answers, but I think too many people have jumped to conclusions about the facts without knowing much about the story.  This is a complex, topical, and important thing to debate, for sure, but to me there isn’t enough provided about the story to make determinations about if anyone was in the right or wrong, or what to do about the situation. 

Finally, maybe this snippet of a speech from Professor Robert Sapolsky regarding the neuro-biology of trans-sexuality will be informative and interesting to some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ

12 year old kiddo playing up against goalie Under 14 by year end, hence 13.

 Edit: I mean 14 by year end, I suck at this Uage logic stuff. Plus I'm tired. Lost a good night sleep thinking of this. Whatever I don't know how old that other f****** kid is but mine's 12 maybe that was a 14-year-old genetic male. This isn't really the point though. Scratch my mathematical/logic error. 

 Yeah I hate when things don't make logical sense. I mean I've carried an EGALE  flag for a pride parade but I'm f****** pissed right off about this s***. That's a good point that I don't have to be transphobic to be pissed off about this. Ty.

Having my coach speak to his head soccer guy (great coach) about the matter.

I know Mickeyrat doesn't mean any harm. He's just factoring his own logic/experience into the equation and that's all right.

 and thanks for validating my general knowledge about physics. Damn I hated that c*********** physic teacher. I lost 20% of my grade and didn't get an A because of my attitude and attendance

Go Beavers

pjl44 said:

One of the ways this can spiral out of control is cherry picking reactions and then arguing with those reactions vs. discussing the issue on its merits with the people in front of you having the discussion.

You must be new to the internet. 

pjl44

Go Beavers said:

pjl44 said:

One of the ways this can spiral out of control is cherry picking reactions and then arguing with those reactions vs. discussing the issue on its merits with the people in front of you having the discussion.

You must be new to the internet. 

Just because it happens a lot don't make it any less fruitless

Spiritual_Chaos

Spunkie said:

Having my coach speak to his head soccer guy (great coach) about the matter.

Even with this subject of whether a person should be allowed in a certain sports team based on their physique, shouldn't you still be able to correctly call that person by their gender -- as in "her"?  Or did your belief in the phenomenon of transsexuality completely vaporize because of this, in this context removed, incident?

Spiritual_Chaos

Gern Blansten said:

But a player's dad on an opposing team had accused her of being a boy during a soccer tournament. I can't say that she was too upset about it but her mother certainly was and I didn't blame her. I remember the mom yelling at the guy because he was suggesting/demanding that someone check her anatomy and he wasn't kidding.

This reminds me of a very, very sad scene from this book. 





Which I think some in here should read.

Spunkie

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Spunkie said:

Having my coach speak to his head soccer guy (great coach) about the matter.

Even with this subject of whether a person should be allowed in a certain sports team based on their physique, shouldn't you still be able to correctly call that person by their gender -- as in "her"?  Or did your belief in the phenomenon of transsexuality completely vaporize because of this, in this context removed, incident?

Don't know their pronoun. They/them?

Spunkie

If I call that person by their gender I'd call him a him but then why is he on a girl's team

Spunkie

I mean can a 14-year-old genetic male even legally be a female in BC? I don't know man.

DarthMaeglin

Spunkie said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Spunkie said:

Having my coach speak to his head soccer guy (great coach) about the matter.

Even with this subject of whether a person should be allowed in a certain sports team based on their physique, shouldn't you still be able to correctly call that person by their gender -- as in "her"?  Or did your belief in the phenomenon of transsexuality completely vaporize because of this, in this context removed, incident?

Don't know their pronoun. They/them?

When in doubt, they/them, I would think, although in this case she/her would be a safe assumption based on the league in which they play. Otherwise it’s basically deadnaming, isn’t it?

That said I’m truly sorry your daughter got hurt and wish her a full recovery.

Spunkie

Yeah all I know for sure is they must not be identifying us a male.

Spunkie

I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again