Fan to Fan Ticket Exchange

jenjen5769

Honest question here..
Stubhub has some insane prices for NYC right now. My 211 tickets that I won through 10c are $1200 each. Craziness. 

Why would anyone sell fan to fan if they can make money off them? I have to think many of these seats for sale are 10c members trying to make money off their lottery tickets vs actually going. So we are our own worst enemy in this case. 

Seems we should be grateful for the Fan to Fan option vs being able to transfer, or else all shows would look like this, no? 

JimmyV

jenjen5769 said:

Honest question here..
Stubhub has some insane prices for NYC right now. My 211 tickets that I won through 10c are $1200 each. Craziness. 

Why would anyone sell fan to fan if they can make money off them? I have to think many of these seats for sale are 10c members trying to make money off their lottery tickets vs actually going. So we are our own worst enemy in this case. 

Seems we should be grateful for the Fan to Fan option vs being able to transfer, or else all shows would look like this, no? 

Only NY and Colorado can be sold this way. All other shows have nontransferable tickets, so fan 2 fan is your only avenue. 

EDIT: I just saw your last sentence. 

mpedone

jenjen5769 said:

Honest question here..
Stubhub has some insane prices for NYC right now. My 211 tickets that I won through 10c are $1200 each. Craziness. 

Why would anyone sell fan to fan if they can make money off them? I have to think many of these seats for sale are 10c members trying to make money off their lottery tickets vs actually going. So we are our own worst enemy in this case. 

Seems we should be grateful for the Fan to Fan option vs being able to transfer, or else all shows would look like this, no? 

The worry right now is that Ticketmaster still controls a bunch of tickets to shows that can only be sold on F2F for face value, and as the shows grow closer and these "premium" seats don't sell, TM will drop the price below face. Great for fans trying to get tickets. Terrible for fans who can't go and are trying to sell their tickets.

In 2020, this wasn't as big an issue, as there were no "Premium" tickets (there were "Vitalogy" tickets that were for charity, but those seemed much more limited, and not tied to "market" value). People were a little upset that they couldn't set their price lower than face value to make sure their tickets sold, but that was less of an issue when they/we didn't have to worry about TM undercutting the F2F market.

Lerxst1992

given2fly23 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

JimmyV said:

I doubt the admins know or have any way of knowing. 

As representation of the band it would be unfortunate and disrespectful to us in the Ten Club not to arm them with this knowledge to be able to answer questions. Considering they are responsible for the fan club as liaisons from the band to the fans.  But what do I know. 

It will open when TM has achieved the premium sales that it wants to achieve, as there’s nothing like a face value good seat on F2F to deter someone from purchasing an adjacent seat for many multiples of that.  10c has nothing to do with that process. 

Man o man.....there have been so many hall passes given to the Ten Club on this. Blind loyalty runs here runs exceptionally deep here.......not a criticism only an observation....TRULY

It’s neither loyal nor disloyal to point out the fact that 10c is not in charge of what TM is doing.  

Could you agree they are a party to what TM is doing?

That's like saying the Dems are a party to the GOP's destruction of democracy.  Of course 10C/PJ are a part of the process, but I trust that they are fighting TM/LiveNation tooth and nail to get the most tickets possible in the hands of real fans at the lowest price possible.  I'm sure PJ still wishes tickets were $20, that doesn't mean they can make that happen.  It's a negotiation.  If you don't trust that they are fighting for their members (and that matters to you), then you shouldn't be giving them your money.  I'm not sure what you are looking for here.  Remember 1995?  TM/LN's monopoly has only grown stronger since then.  A big band's options are as follows:

1. Tour with TM/LN.

2. Don't tour.

That's it. Take your pick.

3. Allow fans to sell back tickets at any price up to face value at any time.

Limiting when F2F opens and not allowing fans to reduce their resale price is extraordinarily concerning because its an anti competitive pricing strategy aimed to artificially inflate prices.

PJ had the resources to negotiate a fairer agreement with TM, if they had any interest in selling tickets at FAIR market value.

Were you there?  If so, please enlighten us on how the negotiations went down.  As to your second sentence...yeah, no kidding, "anti-competitive" is TicketMaster's entire business model!  They are the ones who want to throttle ticket sales to jack up demand/prices.  So absurd that fans IN THE TEN CLUB think 10C has it out for them.  Why do you continue to pay your membership fee then?  Up until 2020, there were NO TRANSFERS allowed for 10C tickets (other than your +1 at the 2018 ballpark shows).  Remember?  You either attended or ate your tickets.

Live Nation manipulated the fan to fan exchange to inflate the market value prices charged for platinum tickets on Ed’s tour, and Live Nation used predatory pricing tactics on platinum to lock in fan exchange prices so they could undercut fan prices, so let’s assume all parties were aware of these tactics before this tour was announced. When the band (and management) agreed to allow inflated platinum  ticket prices, why wouldn’t  they have legal representatives review the proposed agreements for all restrictions Live Nation imposed on the fan exchange (including tactics used on the just concluded tour) so they come up with a fairer deal on this tour?

jenjen5769

mpedone said:

jenjen5769 said:

Honest question here..
Stubhub has some insane prices for NYC right now. My 211 tickets that I won through 10c are $1200 each. Craziness. 

Why would anyone sell fan to fan if they can make money off them? I have to think many of these seats for sale are 10c members trying to make money off their lottery tickets vs actually going. So we are our own worst enemy in this case. 

Seems we should be grateful for the Fan to Fan option vs being able to transfer, or else all shows would look like this, no? 

The worry right now is that Ticketmaster still controls a bunch of tickets to shows that can only be sold on F2F for face value, and as the shows grow closer and these "premium" seats don't sell, TM will drop the price below face. Great for fans trying to get tickets. Terrible for fans who can't go and are trying to sell their tickets.

In 2020, this wasn't as big an issue, as there were no "Premium" tickets (there were "Vitalogy" tickets that were for charity, but those seemed much more limited, and not tied to "market" value). People were a little upset that they couldn't set their price lower than face value to make sure their tickets sold, but that was less of an issue when they/we didn't have to worry about TM undercutting the F2F market.

Ah gotcha. I unfortunately wasn't able to get tickets in 2020; didn't realize Premium wasn't an option. 
I know what you're referring to though.. saw it with the EV shows. A lot of people made out (myself included with last minute tickets), but a lot of fans got screwed. 

JimmyV

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

JimmyV said:

I doubt the admins know or have any way of knowing. 

As representation of the band it would be unfortunate and disrespectful to us in the Ten Club not to arm them with this knowledge to be able to answer questions. Considering they are responsible for the fan club as liaisons from the band to the fans.  But what do I know. 

It will open when TM has achieved the premium sales that it wants to achieve, as there’s nothing like a face value good seat on F2F to deter someone from purchasing an adjacent seat for many multiples of that.  10c has nothing to do with that process. 

Man o man.....there have been so many hall passes given to the Ten Club on this. Blind loyalty runs here runs exceptionally deep here.......not a criticism only an observation....TRULY

It’s neither loyal nor disloyal to point out the fact that 10c is not in charge of what TM is doing.  

Could you agree they are a party to what TM is doing?

That's like saying the Dems are a party to the GOP's destruction of democracy.  Of course 10C/PJ are a part of the process, but I trust that they are fighting TM/LiveNation tooth and nail to get the most tickets possible in the hands of real fans at the lowest price possible.  I'm sure PJ still wishes tickets were $20, that doesn't mean they can make that happen.  It's a negotiation.  If you don't trust that they are fighting for their members (and that matters to you), then you shouldn't be giving them your money.  I'm not sure what you are looking for here.  Remember 1995?  TM/LN's monopoly has only grown stronger since then.  A big band's options are as follows:

1. Tour with TM/LN.

2. Don't tour.

That's it. Take your pick.

3. Allow fans to sell back tickets at any price up to face value at any time.

Limiting when F2F opens and not allowing fans to reduce their resale price is extraordinarily concerning because its an anti competitive pricing strategy aimed to artificially inflate prices.

PJ had the resources to negotiate a fairer agreement with TM, if they had any interest in selling tickets at FAIR market value.

Were you there?  If so, please enlighten us on how the negotiations went down.  As to your second sentence...yeah, no kidding, "anti-competitive" is TicketMaster's entire business model!  They are the ones who want to throttle ticket sales to jack up demand/prices.  So absurd that fans IN THE TEN CLUB think 10C has it out for them.  Why do you continue to pay your membership fee then?  Up until 2020, there were NO TRANSFERS allowed for 10C tickets (other than your +1 at the 2018 ballpark shows).  Remember?  You either attended or ate your tickets.

Live Nation manipulated the fan to fan exchange to inflate the market value prices charged for platinum tickets on Ed’s tour, and Live Nation used predatory pricing tactics on platinum to lock in fan exchange prices so they could undercut fan prices, so let’s assume all parties were aware of these tactics before this tour was announced. When the band (and management) agreed to allow inflated platinum  ticket prices, why wouldn’t  they have legal representatives review the proposed agreements for all restrictions Live Nation imposed on the fan exchange (including tactics used on the just concluded tour) so they come up with a fairer deal on this tour?

But that is a big assumption. We don't know when these contracts were signed, and we don't know that these deals weren't already agreed to when the shadiness with Ed's tour happened. 

Zod

jenjen5769 said:

Honest question here..
Stubhub has some insane prices for NYC right now. My 211 tickets that I won through 10c are $1200 each. Craziness. 

Why would anyone sell fan to fan if they can make money off them? I have to think many of these seats for sale are 10c members trying to make money off their lottery tickets vs actually going. So we are our own worst enemy in this case. 

Seems we should be grateful for the Fan to Fan option vs being able to transfer, or else all shows would look like this, no? 

I think it's 2 stories.  New York and other shows in the US NorthEast are probably going to be in the most demand because so many people live there.   Not only is the New York area have a huge population but there's so many other big cities within a 6 hour drive. 

I feel like the ticket demand is lower in many of the locations outside that area.  Many of the california shows have loads of tickets left up for sale.  I've been getting the feeling that ticket demand might not be where it was before covid.   Both with PJ shows, and other shows I've bought tickets for. 

So in other markets, if you were able to sell our own tickets, I think they might go for a lot less.

Indifference

jenjen5769 said:

Why would anyone sell fan to fan if they can make money off them?

10c finds out you get kicked out.....

danofun

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, only these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are available for purchase and are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other than "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

mpedone

danofun said:

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

Okay, so what do you propose to do about it?

danofun

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

Okay, so what do you propose to do about it?

Simply opening Fan to Fan would define real world scarcity, reset the TM Premium algorithm, and drop "PJ Premium" tickets to real "market value." Fan to Fan, when run fairly, has the potential to completely transform the ticketing industry. 

given2fly23

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

JimmyV said:

I doubt the admins know or have any way of knowing. 

As representation of the band it would be unfortunate and disrespectful to us in the Ten Club not to arm them with this knowledge to be able to answer questions. Considering they are responsible for the fan club as liaisons from the band to the fans.  But what do I know. 

It will open when TM has achieved the premium sales that it wants to achieve, as there’s nothing like a face value good seat on F2F to deter someone from purchasing an adjacent seat for many multiples of that.  10c has nothing to do with that process. 

Man o man.....there have been so many hall passes given to the Ten Club on this. Blind loyalty runs here runs exceptionally deep here.......not a criticism only an observation....TRULY

It’s neither loyal nor disloyal to point out the fact that 10c is not in charge of what TM is doing.  

Could you agree they are a party to what TM is doing?

That's like saying the Dems are a party to the GOP's destruction of democracy.  Of course 10C/PJ are a part of the process, but I trust that they are fighting TM/LiveNation tooth and nail to get the most tickets possible in the hands of real fans at the lowest price possible.  I'm sure PJ still wishes tickets were $20, that doesn't mean they can make that happen.  It's a negotiation.  If you don't trust that they are fighting for their members (and that matters to you), then you shouldn't be giving them your money.  I'm not sure what you are looking for here.  Remember 1995?  TM/LN's monopoly has only grown stronger since then.  A big band's options are as follows:

1. Tour with TM/LN.

2. Don't tour.

That's it. Take your pick.

3. Allow fans to sell back tickets at any price up to face value at any time.

Limiting when F2F opens and not allowing fans to reduce their resale price is extraordinarily concerning because its an anti competitive pricing strategy aimed to artificially inflate prices.

PJ had the resources to negotiate a fairer agreement with TM, if they had any interest in selling tickets at FAIR market value.

Were you there?  If so, please enlighten us on how the negotiations went down.  As to your second sentence...yeah, no kidding, "anti-competitive" is TicketMaster's entire business model!  They are the ones who want to throttle ticket sales to jack up demand/prices.  So absurd that fans IN THE TEN CLUB think 10C has it out for them.  Why do you continue to pay your membership fee then?  Up until 2020, there were NO TRANSFERS allowed for 10C tickets (other than your +1 at the 2018 ballpark shows).  Remember?  You either attended or ate your tickets.

Live Nation manipulated the fan to fan exchange to inflate the market value prices charged for platinum tickets on Ed’s tour, and Live Nation used predatory pricing tactics on platinum to lock in fan exchange prices so they could undercut fan prices, so let’s assume all parties were aware of these tactics before this tour was announced. When the band (and management) agreed to allow inflated platinum  ticket prices, why wouldn’t  they have legal representatives review the proposed agreements for all restrictions Live Nation imposed on the fan exchange (including tactics used on the just concluded tour) so they come up with a fairer deal on this tour?

You’re missing the point. I’m not saying PJ wasn’t aware of it. I’m saying they may/likely don’t have a choice. It’s a negotiation, PJ wasn’t going to get everything they want. PJ’s ideal scenario is probably that every ticket is the same price and no tickets can be re-sold at a cost above face value. They got the latter (except in states where laws prohibit that restriction) but didn’t get the former. Another part of the negotiation is probably how many tickets get allocated to 10C. PJ would want the highest number possible, TM would want the lowest so they control all tickets. There are a lot of factors in these negotiations and to blame PJ for keeping F2F locked is wrong, IMO. 

cmalisze

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

Okay, so what do you propose to do about it?

PJ being transparent and not gaslighting their fans would be a good start. 

mpedone

danofun said:

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

Okay, so what do you propose to do about it?

Simply opening Fan to Fan would define real world scarcity, reset the TM Premium algorithm, and drop "PJ Premium" tickets to real "market value." Fan to Fan, when run fairly, has the potential to completely transform the ticketing industry. 

cmalisze said:

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

Okay, so what do you propose to do about it?

PJ being transparent and not gaslighting their fans would be a good start. 

Those are things you want the band/Ticketmaster to do. That wasn't the question. I think we all agree those are things that should happen. The question is, what do we do about it? What do you propose the fans do?

cmalisze

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

Okay, so what do you propose to do about it?

Simply opening Fan to Fan would define real world scarcity, reset the TM Premium algorithm, and drop "PJ Premium" tickets to real "market value." Fan to Fan, when run fairly, has the potential to completely transform the ticketing industry. 

cmalisze said:

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

Okay, so what do you propose to do about it?

PJ being transparent and not gaslighting their fans would be a good start. 

Those are things you want the band/Ticketmaster to do. That wasn't the question. I think we all agree those are things that should happen. The question is, what do we do about it? What do you propose the fans do?

1. DO NOT BUY PJ Premium seats

Lerxst1992

given2fly23 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

JimmyV said:

I doubt the admins know or have any way of knowing. 

As representation of the band it would be unfortunate and disrespectful to us in the Ten Club not to arm them with this knowledge to be able to answer questions. Considering they are responsible for the fan club as liaisons from the band to the fans.  But what do I know. 

It will open when TM has achieved the premium sales that it wants to achieve, as there’s nothing like a face value good seat on F2F to deter someone from purchasing an adjacent seat for many multiples of that.  10c has nothing to do with that process. 

Man o man.....there have been so many hall passes given to the Ten Club on this. Blind loyalty runs here runs exceptionally deep here.......not a criticism only an observation....TRULY

It’s neither loyal nor disloyal to point out the fact that 10c is not in charge of what TM is doing.  

Could you agree they are a party to what TM is doing?

That's like saying the Dems are a party to the GOP's destruction of democracy.  Of course 10C/PJ are a part of the process, but I trust that they are fighting TM/LiveNation tooth and nail to get the most tickets possible in the hands of real fans at the lowest price possible.  I'm sure PJ still wishes tickets were $20, that doesn't mean they can make that happen.  It's a negotiation.  If you don't trust that they are fighting for their members (and that matters to you), then you shouldn't be giving them your money.  I'm not sure what you are looking for here.  Remember 1995?  TM/LN's monopoly has only grown stronger since then.  A big band's options are as follows:

1. Tour with TM/LN.

2. Don't tour.

That's it. Take your pick.

3. Allow fans to sell back tickets at any price up to face value at any time.

Limiting when F2F opens and not allowing fans to reduce their resale price is extraordinarily concerning because its an anti competitive pricing strategy aimed to artificially inflate prices.

PJ had the resources to negotiate a fairer agreement with TM, if they had any interest in selling tickets at FAIR market value.

Were you there?  If so, please enlighten us on how the negotiations went down.  As to your second sentence...yeah, no kidding, "anti-competitive" is TicketMaster's entire business model!  They are the ones who want to throttle ticket sales to jack up demand/prices.  So absurd that fans IN THE TEN CLUB think 10C has it out for them.  Why do you continue to pay your membership fee then?  Up until 2020, there were NO TRANSFERS allowed for 10C tickets (other than your +1 at the 2018 ballpark shows).  Remember?  You either attended or ate your tickets.

Live Nation manipulated the fan to fan exchange to inflate the market value prices charged for platinum tickets on Ed’s tour, and Live Nation used predatory pricing tactics on platinum to lock in fan exchange prices so they could undercut fan prices, so let’s assume all parties were aware of these tactics before this tour was announced. When the band (and management) agreed to allow inflated platinum  ticket prices, why wouldn’t  they have legal representatives review the proposed agreements for all restrictions Live Nation imposed on the fan exchange (including tactics used on the just concluded tour) so they come up with a fairer deal on this tour?

You’re missing the point. I’m not saying PJ wasn’t aware of it. I’m saying they may/likely don’t have a choice. It’s a negotiation, PJ wasn’t going to get everything they want. PJ’s ideal scenario is probably that every ticket is the same price and no tickets can be re-sold at a cost above face value. They got the latter (except in states where laws prohibit that restriction) but didn’t get the former. Another part of the negotiation is probably how many tickets get allocated to 10C. PJ would want the highest number possible, TM would want the lowest so they control all tickets. There are a lot of factors in these negotiations and to blame PJ for keeping F2F locked is wrong, IMO. 

I agree in that it can be challenging to get a fine tuned point in an internet communication, and I also agree that Live Nation has primary culpability…however we are talking about the self appointed champion of consumer rights when it comes to concert tickets, and they made an enormous concession by agreeing to allow their name to be associated with what is essentially scalped tickets at extremely high prices.

I support the right of all concert organizing  parties involved in this tour to sell market value tickets, however, as champions of consumer rights, I would have hoped that the band have the contractual right to review and oppose any emerging predatory behavior aimed at manipulating market prices as many believe Live Nation is doing by placing extreme anti competitive limits on fan to fan (closing the process entirely to inflate their premium prices and not allowing fans to match price decreases as what occurred  on the solo tour ), as well as locking in PJ Premium prices and not allowing those prices to decline when they sit unsold for weeks, and releasing tickets in limited numbers, providing the appearance that they are down to their last “x” tickets of inventory.

given2fly23

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

JimmyV said:

I doubt the admins know or have any way of knowing. 

As representation of the band it would be unfortunate and disrespectful to us in the Ten Club not to arm them with this knowledge to be able to answer questions. Considering they are responsible for the fan club as liaisons from the band to the fans.  But what do I know. 

It will open when TM has achieved the premium sales that it wants to achieve, as there’s nothing like a face value good seat on F2F to deter someone from purchasing an adjacent seat for many multiples of that.  10c has nothing to do with that process. 

Man o man.....there have been so many hall passes given to the Ten Club on this. Blind loyalty runs here runs exceptionally deep here.......not a criticism only an observation....TRULY

It’s neither loyal nor disloyal to point out the fact that 10c is not in charge of what TM is doing.  

Could you agree they are a party to what TM is doing?

That's like saying the Dems are a party to the GOP's destruction of democracy.  Of course 10C/PJ are a part of the process, but I trust that they are fighting TM/LiveNation tooth and nail to get the most tickets possible in the hands of real fans at the lowest price possible.  I'm sure PJ still wishes tickets were $20, that doesn't mean they can make that happen.  It's a negotiation.  If you don't trust that they are fighting for their members (and that matters to you), then you shouldn't be giving them your money.  I'm not sure what you are looking for here.  Remember 1995?  TM/LN's monopoly has only grown stronger since then.  A big band's options are as follows:

1. Tour with TM/LN.

2. Don't tour.

That's it. Take your pick.

3. Allow fans to sell back tickets at any price up to face value at any time.

Limiting when F2F opens and not allowing fans to reduce their resale price is extraordinarily concerning because its an anti competitive pricing strategy aimed to artificially inflate prices.

PJ had the resources to negotiate a fairer agreement with TM, if they had any interest in selling tickets at FAIR market value.

Were you there?  If so, please enlighten us on how the negotiations went down.  As to your second sentence...yeah, no kidding, "anti-competitive" is TicketMaster's entire business model!  They are the ones who want to throttle ticket sales to jack up demand/prices.  So absurd that fans IN THE TEN CLUB think 10C has it out for them.  Why do you continue to pay your membership fee then?  Up until 2020, there were NO TRANSFERS allowed for 10C tickets (other than your +1 at the 2018 ballpark shows).  Remember?  You either attended or ate your tickets.

Live Nation manipulated the fan to fan exchange to inflate the market value prices charged for platinum tickets on Ed’s tour, and Live Nation used predatory pricing tactics on platinum to lock in fan exchange prices so they could undercut fan prices, so let’s assume all parties were aware of these tactics before this tour was announced. When the band (and management) agreed to allow inflated platinum  ticket prices, why wouldn’t  they have legal representatives review the proposed agreements for all restrictions Live Nation imposed on the fan exchange (including tactics used on the just concluded tour) so they come up with a fairer deal on this tour?

You’re missing the point. I’m not saying PJ wasn’t aware of it. I’m saying they may/likely don’t have a choice. It’s a negotiation, PJ wasn’t going to get everything they want. PJ’s ideal scenario is probably that every ticket is the same price and no tickets can be re-sold at a cost above face value. They got the latter (except in states where laws prohibit that restriction) but didn’t get the former. Another part of the negotiation is probably how many tickets get allocated to 10C. PJ would want the highest number possible, TM would want the lowest so they control all tickets. There are a lot of factors in these negotiations and to blame PJ for keeping F2F locked is wrong, IMO. 

I agree in that it can be challenging to get a fine tuned point in an internet communication, and I also agree that Live Nation has primary culpability…however we are talking about the self appointed champion of consumer rights when it comes to concert tickets, and they made an enormous concession by agreeing to allow their name to be associated with what is essentially scalped tickets at extremely high prices.

I support the right of all concert organizing  parties involved in this tour to sell market value tickets, however, as champions of consumer rights, I would have hoped that the band have the contractual right to review and oppose any emerging predatory behavior aimed at manipulating market prices as many believe Live Nation is doing by placing extreme anti competitive limits on fan to fan (closing the process entirely to inflate their premium prices and not allowing fans to match price decreases as what occurred  on the solo tour ), as well as locking in PJ Premium prices and not allowing those prices to decline when they sit unsold for weeks, and releasing tickets in limited numbers, providing the appearance that they are down to their last “x” tickets of inventory.

Agreed.  Sadly, TM/LN have an absolute monopoly over the industry.  Unless and until bands unite against it, no single band can change this.  My world and calendar revolve around PJ's plans, but we are in the minority.  TM would gladly tell PJ to go F themselves if they pushed too hard, IMO.  I'll be interested to see who makes the top-grossing tours of 2022, and I'm guessing it will be Eilish, Bieber, maybe Coldplay, and lots of people I've never heard of.

mpedone

cmalisze said:

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

Okay, so what do you propose to do about it?

Simply opening Fan to Fan would define real world scarcity, reset the TM Premium algorithm, and drop "PJ Premium" tickets to real "market value." Fan to Fan, when run fairly, has the potential to completely transform the ticketing industry. 

cmalisze said:

mpedone said:

danofun said:

mpedone said:

I am curious about the need to blame PJ for all of this. To what end? Let's say everyone agrees that this was the band's decision. What then?

It is a free market economy and PJ is solely providing the product we so desperately desire. They have the right to charge whatever they want for a concert ticket. Instead of gouging concert-goers, PJ has historically offered reasonably priced tickets to the 10C and public while remaining a staunch advocate for fan access to reasonably priced tickets.

In 2020, PJ wrote a letter to the Committee on Energy and Commerce opposing the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing (BOSS Act). The complete letter can be found here and it opens:

We write to you as one of the biggest touring bands of the last three decades. We also write to you as the working musicians and the MUSIC FANS we were for years before that. We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

WE KNOW HOW TO SERVICE TICKETS TO OUR FANS. Only a few artists in our profession have worked to provide tickets directly to fans. We developed a system for our fan club outside of public sales. For almost thirty years, we have learned from our successes and failures; we have real time experience making sure people buying our tickets actually attend the shows and do not merely sell seats at a markup. We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

One of their stated reasons for opossing the bill was becasue it would “blocks non-transferable ticketing”. PJ's primary gripe seemed to be with profiting on the secondary ticket market. In 2020, PJ and TM launched their Fan to Fan ticket soution which promised to keep tickets off the secondary market and relied on tickets remaining non-transferable. It would be difficult to call the 2020 Fan to Fan solution anything but a success.

The rub comes from the apparent about face in 2022. By blocking ticket transfers and Fan to Fan Sales, PJ and TM have succeeded in completely eliminated a secondary market. As we have seen over the past few weeks regarding the east coast shows, plenty of tickets were withheld from the 10C, Verified Fan, and public sales. Additionally, plenty of ticketholders are looking to unload thier in-hand tickets, at face value, but are restricted from doing so. Instead, these withheld, PJ/TM controlled tickets are being sold as "PJ Premium," which come with zero additional perks and are offered at extreme price points.

We are sympathetic to fans who haven't seen their favorite acts and who mistakenly believe that artists and promoters who are driving prices up through manufactured scarcity.

We haven't forgotten what it is like to hunger and work so hard to see our favorite bands and as a result, we have worked continuously to ensure our fans can see our shows at a reasonable cost.

Make no mistake, what we are seeing out of our beloved band and TM is nothing other "manufactured scarcity" and tickets being sold at completely unreasonable costs.

No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true. - Nathaniel Hawthorne

Okay, so what do you propose to do about it?

PJ being transparent and not gaslighting their fans would be a good start. 

Those are things you want the band/Ticketmaster to do. That wasn't the question. I think we all agree those are things that should happen. The question is, what do we do about it? What do you propose the fans do?

1. DO NOT BUY PJ Premium seats

Okay.

cmalisze

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

given2fly23 said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

RatherStarved said:

cmalisze said:

JimmyV said:

I doubt the admins know or have any way of knowing. 

As representation of the band it would be unfortunate and disrespectful to us in the Ten Club not to arm them with this knowledge to be able to answer questions. Considering they are responsible for the fan club as liaisons from the band to the fans.  But what do I know. 

It will open when TM has achieved the premium sales that it wants to achieve, as there’s nothing like a face value good seat on F2F to deter someone from purchasing an adjacent seat for many multiples of that.  10c has nothing to do with that process. 

Man o man.....there have been so many hall passes given to the Ten Club on this. Blind loyalty runs here runs exceptionally deep here.......not a criticism only an observation....TRULY

It’s neither loyal nor disloyal to point out the fact that 10c is not in charge of what TM is doing.  

Could you agree they are a party to what TM is doing?

That's like saying the Dems are a party to the GOP's destruction of democracy.  Of course 10C/PJ are a part of the process, but I trust that they are fighting TM/LiveNation tooth and nail to get the most tickets possible in the hands of real fans at the lowest price possible.  I'm sure PJ still wishes tickets were $20, that doesn't mean they can make that happen.  It's a negotiation.  If you don't trust that they are fighting for their members (and that matters to you), then you shouldn't be giving them your money.  I'm not sure what you are looking for here.  Remember 1995?  TM/LN's monopoly has only grown stronger since then.  A big band's options are as follows:

1. Tour with TM/LN.

2. Don't tour.

That's it. Take your pick.

3. Allow fans to sell back tickets at any price up to face value at any time.

Limiting when F2F opens and not allowing fans to reduce their resale price is extraordinarily concerning because its an anti competitive pricing strategy aimed to artificially inflate prices.

PJ had the resources to negotiate a fairer agreement with TM, if they had any interest in selling tickets at FAIR market value.

Were you there?  If so, please enlighten us on how the negotiations went down.  As to your second sentence...yeah, no kidding, "anti-competitive" is TicketMaster's entire business model!  They are the ones who want to throttle ticket sales to jack up demand/prices.  So absurd that fans IN THE TEN CLUB think 10C has it out for them.  Why do you continue to pay your membership fee then?  Up until 2020, there were NO TRANSFERS allowed for 10C tickets (other than your +1 at the 2018 ballpark shows).  Remember?  You either attended or ate your tickets.

Live Nation manipulated the fan to fan exchange to inflate the market value prices charged for platinum tickets on Ed’s tour, and Live Nation used predatory pricing tactics on platinum to lock in fan exchange prices so they could undercut fan prices, so let’s assume all parties were aware of these tactics before this tour was announced. When the band (and management) agreed to allow inflated platinum  ticket prices, why wouldn’t  they have legal representatives review the proposed agreements for all restrictions Live Nation imposed on the fan exchange (including tactics used on the just concluded tour) so they come up with a fairer deal on this tour?

You’re missing the point. I’m not saying PJ wasn’t aware of it. I’m saying they may/likely don’t have a choice. It’s a negotiation, PJ wasn’t going to get everything they want. PJ’s ideal scenario is probably that every ticket is the same price and no tickets can be re-sold at a cost above face value. They got the latter (except in states where laws prohibit that restriction) but didn’t get the former. Another part of the negotiation is probably how many tickets get allocated to 10C. PJ would want the highest number possible, TM would want the lowest so they control all tickets. There are a lot of factors in these negotiations and to blame PJ for keeping F2F locked is wrong, IMO. 

I agree in that it can be challenging to get a fine tuned point in an internet communication, and I also agree that Live Nation has primary culpability…however we are talking about the self appointed champion of consumer rights when it comes to concert tickets, and they made an enormous concession by agreeing to allow their name to be associated with what is essentially scalped tickets at extremely high prices.

I support the right of all concert organizing  parties involved in this tour to sell market value tickets, however, as champions of consumer rights, I would have hoped that the band have the contractual right to review and oppose any emerging predatory behavior aimed at manipulating market prices as many believe Live Nation is doing by placing extreme anti competitive limits on fan to fan (closing the process entirely to inflate their premium prices and not allowing fans to match price decreases as what occurred  on the solo tour ), as well as locking in PJ Premium prices and not allowing those prices to decline when they sit unsold for weeks, and releasing tickets in limited numbers, providing the appearance that they are down to their last “x” tickets of inventory.

It is easy to "sell market value tickets" when you manipulate the market to be what you want it to be. As fans we should not care about what their contract states.......we are the ones being manipulated here by BOTH parties TM/PJ.  Who is at fault or why....who cares.....I will tell you who is NOT at fault...the concertgoer who was made to believe one thing and in practice it is the complete opposite. Gaslighting.....

JimmyV

It's easy to list manipulated market value tickets for sale. Selling them, less so. It remains unclear how many of these are actually being purchased.