, it's looking dicey for some of these shows selling out.
They simply oversaturated the California market and ignored some of their strongest markets. Perplexing choice to add Fresno and Sacto to the original dates.
They're not the least bit curious how big of an msg residence they could pull off. They'd rather play for smaller markets. Fans should be giving them credit for that, not complaining that a small % of tickets are selling for market value.
, it's looking dicey for some of these shows selling out.
They simply oversaturated the California market and ignored some of their strongest markets. Perplexing choice to add Fresno and Sacto to the original dates.
They're not the least bit curious how big of an msg residence they could pull off. They'd rather play for smaller markets. Fans should be giving them credit for that, not complaining that a small % of tickets are selling for market value.
Should fans give them credit for doing 7 of 15 US shows in one state, the year after they did 3 of their only 4 shows in that same state?
, it's looking dicey for some of these shows selling out.
They simply oversaturated the California market and ignored some of their strongest markets. Perplexing choice to add Fresno and Sacto to the original dates.
They're not the least bit curious how big of an msg residence they could pull off. They'd rather play for smaller markets. Fans should be giving them credit for that, not complaining that a small % of tickets are selling for market value.
You think TM's algorithm would be kicking out a $4,500 ticket price if there were multiple shows at MSG and more spread across the northeast? They've created artificial scarcity by scheduling so few shows. I'm not sure how much credit I'm supposed to give them for that.
Maybe I have not been as clear as I could have. The hypocrisy I refer to is this.....in this instance the band and TM are telling us as fans "what's good for me is not good for thee" they can dynamically price their PJ premium seats which, let's call it what it is is SCALPING, is perfectly fine and dandy. We, as fans, cannot even transfer a ticket to a friend coming with us to a show if they are running late, let alone sell it. The persona I refer to that was established over 30 years is the speak truth to power....intolerant of being taken advantage of attitude I believed still existed. We cannot even post a 2 for 1 ticket trade on the board without being chastised. If both parties are happy what is the issue? If I want to buy a PJ Premium ticket and I am happy then what is the issue? No issue in one instance.
I am NOT criticizing the business aspect of this tour or any for that matter. In fact, I hope they make a boat load of money, as they should because they are the greatest rock and roll band ever, in my mind. We all "work" and strive for a better life and I hold them to the same standard as I do myself. I wish I had a boat load of money too.
However, as I grew up and learned with Pearl Jam is that.....it is not OK being taken advantage of no matter what and certainly when it is for the benefit of profit. This is EXACTLY how this feels. It is ok to call out hypocrisy as you see it even if it to something or someone you love.
All I think we in the ten club could ask for is to be treated the same way the band wishes to be treated because this is what they helped instill in us, as fans.
I will be in Oakland come hell or high water.....still looking for a GA each night.
It's not scalping when you're selling your own tickets for the price you want to be selling them at.. lol. Scalping is buying a ticket then flipping it for more. Selling a thing for a specified price, even if expensive, is just selling a thing.
There is no specified price for a "PJ Premier" seat. The pricing varies on the market.....which is why I called it scalping. The price is not concrete. Fair enough that it is their "own" ticket to do with what they please....all I think then is that when I purchase a ticket of theirs no matter for "PJ Non-Premium" or "PJ Premium" I also should be able to do whatever I wish to do with it because at that point I own it. What's good from them isn't good for us. When there was no "PJ Premium" I had no issue with transfers being locked etc. until this. This is valid.
There is no specified price for a "PJ Premier" seat. The pricing varies on the market.....which is why I called it scalping. The price is not concrete. Fair enough that it is their "own" ticket to do with what they please....all I think then is that when I purchase a ticket of theirs no matter for "PJ Non-Premium" or "PJ Premium" I also should be able to do whatever I wish to do with it because at that point I own it. What's good from them isn't good for us. When there was no "PJ Premium" I had no issue with transfers being locked etc. until this. This is valid.
Absolutely. I was only taking issue with calling it scalping, when it's not technically scalping. Completely agree with everything else you said.
I understand why their doing it. On the flip side it doesn't mean I have to like it :(
"Market pricing" would involve another company similar to TM, competing with TM, giving bands a choice of venues and service fee/guarantee structures. Unfortunately, there is no "market" or "market pricing" in this situation, just a monopoly. We used to have anti-trust laws in the US to keep consumers from being taken advantage of in this fashion. It seems their enforcement isn't a priority any longer.
There is no specified price for a "PJ Premier" seat. The pricing varies on the market.....which is why I called it scalping. The price is not concrete. Fair enough that it is their "own" ticket to do with what they please....all I think then is that when I purchase a ticket of theirs no matter for "PJ Non-Premium" or "PJ Premium" I also should be able to do whatever I wish to do with it because at that point I own it. What's good from them isn't good for us. When there was no "PJ Premium" I had no issue with transfers being locked etc. until this. This is valid.
Absolutely. I was only taking issue with calling it scalping, when it's not technically scalping. Completely agree with everything else you said.
I understand why their doing it. On the flip side it doesn't mean I have to like it :(
Curious to learn of your understanding.
My understanding was that our tickets were always planned to be locked because the Ten Club and the band cared about pricing integrity and limiting resale at above and beyond what was determined to be face value by THEM. Now that they, and TM, are benefitting from the lack of pricing integrity, only when it comes to them for variable pricing, I say all bets should be off. Still entice us as fans to join the Ten Club for the continued chance to land reasonably priced seats, no matter the location but allow us to transfer, sell for whatever price we want, trade for any return we want etc. Now it simply feels like the Ten Club and the band are gaslighting us members/fanatics. We are being told that limiting resale capabilities, transfers, or any other mechanism of control of our own purchase was for our own protection in the long run to maintain low prices and best access. Surely isn't how this looks/feels. It seems and feels like all this is occurring to ensure the "PJ Premium" seats are able to be moved at whatever price is decided on at that given time by a computer designed to maximize profits off of us as fans. Plain and simple....if our ability to transfer or sell tickets was lifted the need/desire for "PJ Premium" tickets would drastically decrease.
We haven't even discussed why the F2F hasn't been turned on yet either.....I will give you a guess......
"And like weeds with big leaves - Stealing light from what's beneath"
"Market pricing" would involve another company similar to TM, competing with TM, giving bands a choice of venues and service fee/guarantee structures. Unfortunately, there is no "market" or "market pricing" in this situation, just a monopoly. We used to have anti-trust laws in the US to keep consumers from being taken advantage of in this fashion. It seems their enforcement isn't a priority any longer.
I'm okay with believing there are reason they felt it was necessary this tour, but I am hung up on the point you bring up. I guess it's technically legal because they can set whatever price they like, but the face value for all of these tickets is the same, so they are jacking up the prices against themselves. Again, a technicality is that the F2F does allow fans to buy tickets at face value, even when all that TM has directly available is Premium, but then, the "market value" is...FACE VALUE. And then, you add on top of that the fact that they have more seats than what they list on the site, and it just gets shadier and shadier.
TM gets by on so many technicalities. They are functionally a monopoly, because they control pretty much anyplace PJ and other bands of their size would play, but they don't control EVERYTHING, so - again technically - not a monopoly.
What I keep running into, though, is what do we do about it? What can we do? Hope the Cali shows don't sell out? TM won't care, but will the band?
"I'm a lucky man, to count on both hands the [shows I've done]. Some folks just have one, others they got none..."
There is no specified price for a "PJ Premier" seat. The pricing varies on the market.....which is why I called it scalping. The price is not concrete. Fair enough that it is their "own" ticket to do with what they please....all I think then is that when I purchase a ticket of theirs no matter for "PJ Non-Premium" or "PJ Premium" I also should be able to do whatever I wish to do with it because at that point I own it. What's good from them isn't good for us. When there was no "PJ Premium" I had no issue with transfers being locked etc. until this. This is valid.
Absolutely. I was only taking issue with calling it scalping, when it's not technically scalping. Completely agree with everything else you said.
I understand why their doing it. On the flip side it doesn't mean I have to like it :(
We haven't even discussed why the F2F hasn't been turned on yet either.....I will give you a guess......
On the one hand, I certainly understand that costs have gone up. Live Nation actually releases pretty detailed financial information...and while Platinum was key for driving revenue (as that article pointed out and the company emphasizes in their report), profit margin for the concert portion of their business was -14% in Q4 of 2021 vs -5% of Q4 of 2019. So costs are certainly through the roof, as even with the increase in revenue from Platinum concerts are still much less profitable now than they were pre-pandemic.
That said, the false scarcity tactics being employed are extremely manipulative (preying on FOMO), unethical, and the only reason TM/Live Nation gets away with it is due to the power imbalance between their company and fans. I have no idea, how they are not legally considered a monopoly. But I know antitrust laws are woefully outdated. (Similarly, not being able to take a loss on Fan 2 Fan is extremely anti-consumer)
Regarding PJ, I would be so curious to know if this tour and the platinum model ends of being a net positive for them & TM financially. I think they really overplayed their hand with the amount of CA shows. How many MSG platinum tickets do you need to sell to make out for sections worth of tickets being unsold in multiple CA shows? I'm not so sure that big picture TM comes out ahead rather than just selling out 20 shows at face instantly.
"Market pricing" would involve another company similar to TM, competing with TM, giving bands a choice of venues and service fee/guarantee structures. Unfortunately, there is no "market" or "market pricing" in this situation, just a monopoly. We used to have anti-trust laws in the US to keep consumers from being taken advantage of in this fashion. It seems their enforcement isn't a priority any longer.
I'm okay with believing there are reason they felt it was necessary this tour,
The $264,000.00 question (the answer to which will afford you the luxury of 6 PJ Premium MSG seats) is "is this for this tour only?" Doubtful. This is likely the way going forward. Tough to put the genie back in the bottle once it's been released. Once Stone realizes he can now afford to buy dish soap, that's it.
"Market pricing" would involve another company similar to TM, competing with TM, giving bands a choice of venues and service fee/guarantee structures. Unfortunately, there is no "market" or "market pricing" in this situation, just a monopoly. We used to have anti-trust laws in the US to keep consumers from being taken advantage of in this fashion. It seems their enforcement isn't a priority any longer.
I'm okay with believing there are reason they felt it was necessary this tour,
The $264,000.00 question (the answer to which will afford you the luxury of 6 PJ Premium MSG seats) is "is this for this tour only?" Doubtful. This is likely the way going forward. Tough to put the genie back in the bottle once it's been released. Once Stone realizes he can now afford to buy dish soap, that's it.
My hope is that it is just for this tour, but that's probably wishful thinking; my point in using that phrase wasn't suggesting it's *just* for this tour.
"I'm a lucky man, to count on both hands the [shows I've done]. Some folks just have one, others they got none..."
For the lonest time PJ did not allow resale of 10C tickets AT ALL. Then they allowed face value sales. They have always insisted that if you are buying 10c tix they are for you and your guest. There have been a few exceptions but restrictions on transfers is not surprising, that has been a common theme for decades.
Market price is what the consumer will pay for a good or service. With a monopoly, the seller controls the market price. This is here to stay until there is a regulatory change. Make no mistake, the band is making plenty of money from these gigs to cover costs and carbon offsets. Add the merch sales and they are making big, big money. The pricing scheme is about TM maximizing revenue for each ticket it sells and minimizing returns for any resellers. Nothing else. Put whatever name you want on it. What sucks is that the bands and us fans have no alternative and that is why we are getting squeezed.
For the lonest time PJ did not allow resale of 10C tickets AT ALL. Then they allowed face value sales. They have always insisted that if you are buying 10c tix they are for you and your guest. There have been a few exceptions but restrictions on transfers is not surprising, that has been a common theme for decades.
Market price is what the consumer will pay for a good or service. With a monopoly, the seller controls the market price. This is here to stay until there is a regulatory change. Make no mistake, the band is making plenty of money from these gigs to cover costs and carbon offsets. Add the merch sales and they are making big, big money. The pricing scheme is about TM maximizing revenue for each ticket it sells and minimizing returns for any resellers. Nothing else. Put whatever name you want on it. What sucks is that the bands and us fans have no alternative and that is why we are getting squeezed.
The band has an alternative, they can just say no to the practice. It's their choice. Platinum tickets have existed for some time, Pearl Jam has always said no until 2022.
I thought ticket sales were way down for pretty much all touring acts these days. Seems like these jacked up prices would only discourage more from attending. Seems like it's already killed the initial onsale excitement. As others have stated though, I guess the goal is no longer to sell out shows but to make as much money as possible, so maybe there will be a lot of heavily discounted tickets near or on show days. Wonder if there will be ticket giveaways close to show day at some of the California shows like for the EV LA show.
, it's looking dicey for some of these shows selling out.
They simply oversaturated the California market and ignored some of their strongest markets. Perplexing choice to add Fresno and Sacto to the original dates.
They're not the least bit curious how big of an msg residence they could pull off. They'd rather play for smaller markets. Fans should be giving them credit for that, not complaining that a small % of tickets are selling for market value.
You think TM's algorithm would be kicking out a $4,500 ticket price if there were multiple shows at MSG and more spread across the northeast? They've created artificial scarcity by scheduling so few shows. I'm not sure how much credit I'm supposed to give them for that.
You know NY has never had ticket availability over the years, especially for unconnected part time fans like me, lol. Have they ever played seven arena shows here within a five hour drive? Maybe.
And Bostons just as tough, four stadium shows 2016 to 2018 and stub hub was north of $350 in most cases, every seat gone in seconds. And Philly just sold 27,000 tickets in less time than it takes to sneeze.
Not sure how much evidence is needed to demonstrate where the product sells best for the biggest cost. But yet they get attacked for a small % selling at FMV as PJ premium and they’re playing a lot of smaller market shows instead of the big seller markets. Also selling front of house tickets for $133, which very few big rock acts do. It’s tough to rationalize the attacks that they’re a money grab act
, it's looking dicey for some of these shows selling out.
They simply oversaturated the California market and ignored some of their strongest markets. Perplexing choice to add Fresno and Sacto to the original dates.
They're not the least bit curious how big of an msg residence they could pull off. They'd rather play for smaller markets. Fans should be giving them credit for that, not complaining that a small % of tickets are selling for market value.
You think TM's algorithm would be kicking out a $4,500 ticket price if there were multiple shows at MSG and more spread across the northeast? They've created artificial scarcity by scheduling so few shows. I'm not sure how much credit I'm supposed to give them for that.
You know NY has never had ticket availability over the years, especially for unconnected part time fans like me, lol. Have they ever played seven arena shows here within a five hour drive? Maybe.
And Bostons just as tough, four stadium shows 2016 to 2018 and stub hub was north of $350 in most cases, every seat gone in seconds. And Philly just sold 27,000 tickets in less time than it takes to sneeze.
Not sure how much evidence is needed to demonstrate where the product sells best for the biggest cost. But yet they get attacked for a small % selling at FMV as PJ premium and they’re playing a lot of smaller market shows instead of the big seller markets. Also selling front of house tickets for $133, which very few big rock acts do. It’s tough to rationalize the attacks that they’re a money grab act
Lots of real estate between giving them credit for what they have done here and accusing them of being a money grab act.
I’ll agree the best complaint is they don’t allow free trade on F2F for the Platinum seats for EV dates, by allowing TM to undercut F2F by lowering Platinum prices and preventing fans from being able to do the same. I have serious questions whether that’s legal. It’s definitely not ethical. Hopefully that’s fixed for the PJ shows
Someone in their management should take a closer look at that. But selling some PJ Premium tickets, unfortunately that’s legitimate and reasonable considering how hard the touring industry was hit
For the lonest time PJ did not allow resale of 10C tickets AT ALL. Then they allowed face value sales. They have always insisted that if you are buying 10c tix they are for you and your guest. There have been a few exceptions but restrictions on transfers is not surprising, that has been a common theme for decades.
Market price is what the consumer will pay for a good or service. With a monopoly, the seller controls the market price. This is here to stay until there is a regulatory change. Make no mistake, the band is making plenty of money from these gigs to cover costs and carbon offsets. Add the merch sales and they are making big, big money. The pricing scheme is about TM maximizing revenue for each ticket it sells and minimizing returns for any resellers. Nothing else. Put whatever name you want on it. What sucks is that the bands and us fans have no alternative and that is why we are getting squeezed.
The band has an alternative, they can just say no to the practice. It's their choice. Platinum tickets have existed for some time, Pearl Jam has always said no until 2022.
Not if they want to play MSG, they really do not have a choice. It is relatively new (beta tested in 2017, rolled out in 2018 not 100% sure on that). Previously, instead of TM platinum ticket pricing, they were sold at face value and sold off stub hub, seat geek and ebay by every tom dick and harry that could get their hands on tickets. People and businesses made millions off TM tickets and the band's performances. Platinum pricing will greatly reduce the number of resales and TM will capture that revenue and share it with the band.
For the lonest time PJ did not allow resale of 10C tickets AT ALL. Then they allowed face value sales. They have always insisted that if you are buying 10c tix they are for you and your guest. There have been a few exceptions but restrictions on transfers is not surprising, that has been a common theme for decades.
Market price is what the consumer will pay for a good or service. With a monopoly, the seller controls the market price. This is here to stay until there is a regulatory change. Make no mistake, the band is making plenty of money from these gigs to cover costs and carbon offsets. Add the merch sales and they are making big, big money. The pricing scheme is about TM maximizing revenue for each ticket it sells and minimizing returns for any resellers. Nothing else. Put whatever name you want on it. What sucks is that the bands and us fans have no alternative and that is why we are getting squeezed.
The band has an alternative, they can just say no to the practice. It's their choice. Platinum tickets have existed for some time, Pearl Jam has always said no until 2022.
Honestly. I think pearl jam/ten club have just become lazy or truly don't care anymore. It's okay if that is true. Just be honest and communicate with the fans.
Comments
They're not the least bit curious how big of an msg residence they could pull off. They'd rather play for smaller markets. Fans should be giving them credit for that, not complaining that a small % of tickets are selling for market value.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
ISO 2016 Greenville shirt. Size medium. PM me if you have one for sale/trade.
Wetlands 91
CBGB 91
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and many, many more
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Absolutely. I was only taking issue with calling it scalping, when it's not technically scalping. Completely agree with everything else you said.
My understanding was that our tickets were always planned to be locked because the Ten Club and the band cared about pricing integrity and limiting resale at above and beyond what was determined to be face value by THEM. Now that they, and TM, are benefitting from the lack of pricing integrity, only when it comes to them for variable pricing, I say all bets should be off. Still entice us as fans to join the Ten Club for the continued chance to land reasonably priced seats, no matter the location but allow us to transfer, sell for whatever price we want, trade for any return we want etc. Now it simply feels like the Ten Club and the band are gaslighting us members/fanatics. We are being told that limiting resale capabilities, transfers, or any other mechanism of control of our own purchase was for our own protection in the long run to maintain low prices and best access. Surely isn't how this looks/feels. It seems and feels like all this is occurring to ensure the "PJ Premium" seats are able to be moved at whatever price is decided on at that given time by a computer designed to maximize profits off of us as fans. Plain and simple....if our ability to transfer or sell tickets was lifted the need/desire for "PJ Premium" tickets would drastically decrease.
We haven't even discussed why the F2F hasn't been turned on yet either.....I will give you a guess......
"And like weeds with big leaves - Stealing light from what's beneath"
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 | Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22 | Baltimore 09.12.24 | Fenway 1 09.15.24 | Fenway 2 09.17.24
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him.
He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
That said, the false scarcity tactics being employed are extremely manipulative (preying on FOMO), unethical, and the only reason TM/Live Nation gets away with it is due to the power imbalance between their company and fans. I have no idea, how they are not legally considered a monopoly. But I know antitrust laws are woefully outdated. (Similarly, not being able to take a loss on Fan 2 Fan is extremely anti-consumer)
Regarding PJ, I would be so curious to know if this tour and the platinum model ends of being a net positive for them & TM financially. I think they really overplayed their hand with the amount of CA shows. How many MSG platinum tickets do you need to sell to make out for sections worth of tickets being unsold in multiple CA shows? I'm not so sure that big picture TM comes out ahead rather than just selling out 20 shows at face instantly.
Doubtful. This is likely the way going forward. Tough to put the genie back in the bottle once it's been released. Once Stone realizes he can now afford to buy dish soap, that's it.
My hope is that it is just for this tour, but that's probably wishful thinking; my point in using that phrase wasn't suggesting it's *just* for this tour.
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 | Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22 | Baltimore 09.12.24 | Fenway 1 09.15.24 | Fenway 2 09.17.24
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him.
He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
Market price is what the consumer will pay for a good or service. With a monopoly, the seller controls the market price. This is here to stay until there is a regulatory change. Make no mistake, the band is making plenty of money from these gigs to cover costs and carbon offsets. Add the merch sales and they are making big, big money. The pricing scheme is about TM maximizing revenue for each ticket it sells and minimizing returns for any resellers. Nothing else. Put whatever name you want on it. What sucks is that the bands and us fans have no alternative and that is why we are getting squeezed.
Platinum tickets have existed for some time, Pearl Jam has always said no until 2022.
Not sure how much evidence is needed to demonstrate where the product sells best for the biggest cost. But yet they get attacked for a small % selling at FMV as PJ premium and they’re playing a lot of smaller market shows instead of the big seller markets. Also selling front of house tickets for $133, which very few big rock acts do. It’s tough to rationalize the attacks that they’re a money grab act
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Not if they want to play MSG, they really do not have a choice. It is relatively new (beta tested in 2017, rolled out in 2018 not 100% sure on that). Previously, instead of TM platinum ticket pricing, they were sold at face value and sold off stub hub, seat geek and ebay by every tom dick and harry that could get their hands on tickets. People and businesses made millions off TM tickets and the band's performances. Platinum pricing will greatly reduce the number of resales and TM will capture that revenue and share it with the band.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."