I know its about death. but the chorus has hope beyond this. 'every inch between us becomes lightyears now' implies that the deceased friend still exists out there somewhere. Furthermore, as I said 'wherever we might go, it dont seem fair' heavily implies a better place. He is saying 'even if you are in a better place, its still not fair. you liked it here and I liked having you around'
you don't know for sure that you're interpretation of the lyrics is what they are intended to mean.
that's what art/music/literature (and the bible) is about- personal interpretation.
it has just occured to me that the last few post about lightyears illustrate my point about meaning. Of course, we could create our own subjective meanings for the song, but that doesn't change the fact that it has a meaning intended by the author - an expression of loss over a friend who has died. Now that we know this, I doubt anyone (except maybe that cheeky anarchist grunger) will suggest that it means anything different. I think the same is true for all songs, its just that we usually dont have the vital key of the songwriter's circumstances and thought when he wrote the song.
...
And just like the song... many people can have many different interpretations of the Bible, right? So, who's to say which is the correct interpretation?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Surely you're better than this name-calling. For the record, I am not Scott Stap, I cant even spell his name. I don't like Creed.
Just for the record, I called you Scott Stapp, not anarchist grunger, but I was inspired by his Creed comment to do so. He's the bad influence but I actually am guilty. I'll go to the step with him. I hope he's still there. I hope he's cute!
By the way, I'm happy to know you're not a Creed fan. What a waste of brain cells. Christian or not, Scott Stapp is a total DB. Yes, I know that's name-callling but to a long list of jackass offenses he added throwing a liquor bottle at his wife's head only a few months after she gave birth to their daughter (yes I am trying to change the subject)!
But still, peace!
And if there's something you'd like to do. Oh, just let me continue to blame you.
Just for the record, I called you Scott Stapp, not anarchist grunger, but I was inspired by his Creed comment to do so. He's the bad influence but I actually am guilty. I'll go to the step with him. I hope he's still there. I hope he's cute!
how does eternity in hell sound? ;;)
"It was a kind of a sick, disturbed rock opera - if Nietzsche were to write a rock opera,"-Jeff Ament about Eddie's first three songs
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough, I'm fine now.
Push me pull me. See ya later
<present tense inhabiter #0003 & Even Flow psycho #0036>
Did you not read slightofJeff's post. And yes I know that not everyone is a Christian and that religion and spirituality can be different. I just did a degree in the 'study of religions'. I was one of about 3 Christians out of 60.
Did you not read slightofJeff's post. And yes I know that not everyone is a Christian and that religion and spirituality can be different. I just did a degree in the 'study of religions'. I was one of about 3 Christians out of 60.
no I guess I didn't read slightofjeff's post.
if you realize that not everyone is christian, then why did you say that the "greatest discovery of all" is "being a disciple of jesus"? If you're not christian, that's definitely not going to be your personal "greatest discovery of all."
The person who knows best the correct interpretation of a Biblical passage is its author and I think they would care more than Ed does regarding his lyrics about the way they are misinterpreted. If it can mean anything I like then if I want it to say i'm going to kill you, that's valid. Obviously we cannot consult the actual authors but we can study the language, culture and religion of the ancient Jews who wrote the texts, and this is immensely fruitful in clarifying the numerous errors that have occured from 20 centuries of non-Jewish (mostly anti-jewish) interpretation. For the best scholarship in this area check out http://www.jcstudies.com/ peace.
I guese you could say that's my subjective view but I do not think truth is subjective. The universe only got here one way. Someone made it or it made itself. Whichever it is, this truth is the same for all of us regardless of what we believe.
No, just the step. I'm Christian, remember? Katie Holmes may have given up Jesus for another man, but I won't. Let me know when you're interested in heaven. A know a way to get us off the step and to a better place (see timsinclair, I'm didn't leave my faith at home!).
And if there's something you'd like to do. Oh, just let me continue to blame you.
Oh yes it was you wasn't it. Ill let you off since you owned up plus I hate to think what mischief you two would get up to on that step together.
Threw a bottle at his wife!! thats pretty shocking.
The person who knows best the correct interpretation of a Biblical passage is its author and I think they would care more than Ed does regarding his lyrics about the way they are misinterpreted. If it can mean anything I like then if I want it to say i'm going to kill you, that's valid. Obviously we cannot consult the actual authors but we can study the language, culture and religion of the ancient Jews who wrote the texts, and this is immensely fruitful in clarifying the numerous errors that have occured from 20 centuries of non-Jewish (mostly anti-jewish) interpretation. For the best scholarship in this area check out http://www.jcstudies.com/ peace.
...
So... you agree. There are many interpretations of the Bible. And since we cannot know what the original authors meant, the truth behind them is up for grabs.
I don't know about that whole studying the ancient culture and language thing and finding the truth... I mean, John Lennon is gone... and we know tons and tons of stuff about him... but, who really knows the meaning... if any... of 'I am The Walrus'?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I guese you could say that's my subjective view but I do not think truth is subjective. The universe only got here one way. Someone made it or it made itself. Whichever it is, this truth is the same for all of us regardless of what we believe.
-exactly, it's your subjective view, so why are you imposing it on ed? maybe his "greatest discovery of all" is something else and he hasn't missed out on anything.
...right, the truth is same for all of us regarless of what we believe...so...what's your point?
Yes the Bible can be interpreted in many ways but not many valid ways. Biblical writers are not comparable to John Lennon because they thought and wrote within a fixed system of knowledge, i.e Biblical Judaism. Take the apostle Paul for example, he was a Rabbi, trained by the great Rabbi gamaliel - grandson of Hillel. He was a Torah observant Jew and remained so for his whole life. Once you understand this, you can see that he used certain rules of interpretation as he expounded scriptures, namely the seven midoth (rules) of Hillel. the more we study the man, and the world he lived in, the more difficult passages of his writings are illuminated.
Well if you accept that truth is the same for us all then something that seems like a great discovery for us is not so great if it is false, or worse, a lie.
Well if you accept that truth is the same for us all then something that seems like a great discovery for us is not so great if it is false, or worse, a lie.
Yes the Bible can be interpreted in many ways but not many valid ways. Biblical writers are not comparable to John Lennon because they thought and wrote within a fixed system of knowledge, i.e Biblical Judaism. Take the apostle Paul for example, he was a Rabbi, trained by the great Rabbi gamaliel - grandson of Hillel. He was a Torah observant Jew and remained so for his whole life. Once you understand this, you can see that he used certain rules of interpretation as he expounded scriptures, namely the seven midoth (rules) of Hillel. the more we study the man, and the world he lived in, the more difficult passages of his writings are illuminated.
...
"Yes the Bible can be interpreted in many ways but not many valid ways."
Okay, agreement.
...
And you are missing my point...
You can study everything you want about Paul... how he lived, what school he went to what he ate... everything... but you... as in YOU... do not know what he was thinking.
Just like... we know a lot of stuff about John Lennon... but, we don't know what he was thinking.
....
And if you DO believe you know what Paul (not McCartney) was thinking when he penned his gospel... that's YOUR interpretation... or more like your interpretations of the interpretations of the authors of the men whom have studied Paul. It is not Paul, and therefore, it may or may not be true... or not the (absolute) truth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Well if you accept that truth is the same for us all then something that seems like a great discovery for us is not so great if it is false, or worse, a lie.
..
Please... provide examples.
...
Example of truth:
1 + 1 = 2
nothing to interpret. Find a valid, verifiable fact to dispute this.
...
Also... you do not 'Accept the Truth'. It is either the truth or it is not.
Yes... a universal truth is the Universe happened... that is not in dispute. HOW it got here is in dispute. And no one knows the answer to that.
You can have faith in a certain religion or religious belief... and it is truth to you. But it is not universal and it does not apply to me or anyone else.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
ok. Lets say you are going skydiving for the first time, you know nothing about how to do it. 50,000 feet up people start jumpin out. You ask your friend what to do, he says you need a parachute. Just then someone (maybe someone like that anarchist grunger) tells you that if you spread out your limbs, kind of like a flying squirrel, you can glide safely to the ground with no need for a parachute. for you this is a great discovery, you have never heard of it before but the cheeky prankster seems sincere. exited by your discovery you throw yourself out of the plane, its great at first, what a rush, you spread out your arms and legs just as he said expecting it to slow your fall but....aghhh.........splat.
It would be nice if we could create our own reality, we kind of can for a while, and it can be fun but the real truth of our existence will one day be apparent to all. I hope you get a parachute, Jesus is offering you one.
ok. Lets say you are going skydiving for the first time, you know nothing about how to do it. 50,000 feet up people start jumpin out. You ask your friend what to do, he says you need a parachute. Just then someone (maybe someone like that anarchist grunger) tells you that if you spread out your limbs, kind of like a flying squirrel, you can glide safely to the ground with no need for a parachute. for you this is a great discovery, you have never heard of it before but the cheeky prankster seems sincere. exited by your discovery you throw yourself out of the plane, its great at first, what a rush, you spread out your arms and legs just as he said expecting it to slow your fall but....aghhh.........splat.
It would be nice if we could create our own reality, we kind of can for a while, and it can be fun but the real truth of our existence will one day be apparent to all. I hope you get a parachute, Jesus is offering you one.
...
I know this was directed to someone else... but, I ain't buying it.
...
Why is it that Jesus is the parachute?
Because you are the one creating the story, that's why. Someone else can tell the same story, except Jesus is the one asking to believe in Him... and fly like the squirrel.
Right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yes. Its up to you who you believe but most religions tell us that we can make it by our own efforts. Do this, do that, follow these rules. The Bible alone says that we all need a parachute, we cannot make it on our own because, as Paul says in Romans, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That's why the creator of all things got down from his lofty abode, experienced life as a human being, suffered horribly and died on our behalf, and offered himself as a substitute for us. this means that if we accept what he has done, and tell God so, we have a free ride to safety. None of us can boast because its what he did, not how good we are. I know its outrageous and seems too simple, but I have found it to be true. What happened on the cross is the greatest expression of love in history, immense suffering by an innocent man on behalf of a bunch of people who dont deserve such love. This is the fullest expression of God's love for you, how you respond to his offer will determine your destiny. Peace.
hi again. yes I think you are right, and I'm glad someone has acknowledged that ed did 'try' to reconcile God with what he saw around him. This was also the greatest problem for me, I have met a lot of people that I have judged to be 'good people' even 'amazing' people, yet they reject the message of the gospel. Why does this mean they should be condemned? it seems obscene. But this is not a question about God's existence, only about his character. If we dont like the situation (most of us dont) we can do 3 things. 1. Hate God, 2. Convince ourselves that he doesn't exist, or 3. Shout at him and ask for some answers. For a long time I did the first, I tried the second but I couldn't do it, then I did the third. I didn't get any answers but something changed. because I acknowledged him, even if in anger, he started to pursue me. Maybe he was pursuing me all along. I dont have the answers to the big questions about why the world is the way it is, but denying God is not the answer, shout at him instead. Job in the Bible did this too, God did not give him any answers either but he responded by revealing himself to him. This gave Job, and me, the ability to say: ok, you know better than me. Peace.
i didnt acknowledge that ed had 'tried' to reconcile what he saw around him with a God. i asked you how do you know he hadnt.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
On your'e last point. Intelligent Design has struch a death-blow to Darwinism by exposing its fragile foundations. The movement's founder, Philip Johnson, is a Harvard Law Proffessor and after discerning that 'something about their [darwinist scientists] rhetoric made me think that they had something to hide.' Johnson put the evidence for Darwin's theory on trial. In his book 'Darwin on Trial' he cross-examines all the alleged evidences for the theory and concludes that: ‘As a general theory of biological creation, Darwinism is not empirical at all. Rather, it is a necessary implication of a philosophical doctrine called scientific naturalism, which is based on an a priori assumption that God was always absent from the realm of nature.’ The foundation of darwinism is philosophy, not science, and now that this has been exposed, the whole edifice is beggining to crumble. If you look on the Discovery Institute website, you will see a list of over 400 pHD scientists that now seriously doubt the validity of Darwinism. The Darwinian establishment is desperately trying to discredit these scientists by character assassination and denial that their is even a controversy over the origins of life. But the truth is out. Peace. p.s all good things come from seattle!!
i disagree. and i cant express how strongly i do so. i see evolution when i look at the marine iguanas of the galapagos islands. i see evolution when i look at the flightless cormorant of the galapagos islands. i see evolution when i watch chimpanzees not ony use, but make tools to acquire food. this is what i class as evolution. i believe that one day the hippopotamus will lose the need and use of its legs and go the way of the dugong and the manatee. how do you define evolution?
you say the foundation of evolution is philosophy, what is the foundation of creation?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yes. Its up to you who you believe but most religions tell us that we can make it by our own efforts. Do this, do that, follow these rules. The Bible alone says that we all need a parachute, we cannot make it on our own because, as Paul says in Romans, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That's why the creator of all things got down from his lofty abode, experienced life as a human being, suffered horribly and died on our behalf, and offered himself as a substitute for us. this means that if we accept what he has done, and tell God so, we have a free ride to safety. None of us can boast because its what he did, not how good we are. I know its outrageous and seems too simple, but I have found it to be true. What happened on the cross is the greatest expression of love in history, immense suffering by an innocent man on behalf of a bunch of people who dont deserve such love. This is the fullest expression of God's love for you, how you respond to his offer will determine your destiny. Peace.
Gotta go now
See you lot tommorrow
...
I believe in human faith... and in hope. But, I know those are just what they are... faith and hope. I do not try to make them to be anything other than that... such as truth.
And as you stated... 'as Paul says'. Which brings it back to the author. I don't know what Paul's inspiration was.. if there was any intent behind it... any of that. and no matter how much anyone studies about Paul... none of them will ever really know.
...
And this is one problem I see... that whole... we are forgiven thing:
"... most religions tell us that we can make it by our own efforts. Do this, do that, follow these rules. The Bible alone says that we all need a parachute, we cannot make it on our own because, as Paul says in Romans, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"...offered himself as a substitute for us. this means that if we accept what he has done, and tell God so, we have a free ride to safety."
...
Because it means... it doesn't matter how shitty you are as a person... as long as you believe in Christ, you are saved. This explains how Death Row inmates and convicted murderers find Jesus. If this is true... they have sinned and truely accepted Jesus as their saviour... they are saved, right?
If it is not right... and they get the pit of fire because of their murderous ways... then, it means that the whole of Christianity is bullshit and it DOES matter what you do in life.
Conversely, if it does work that way... then, I cannot accept the fact that a Christian like Adolph Hitler gets saved... while Ghandi and the 6 million Jews who died in the halocaust are in Hell. Explain that to me to the point where I say, "Yeah, I accept that". I can tell you... save your breath 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
Unless, of course, there are different levels of heaven... the cheap seats where the murderers and rapists and O.J. are gonna be... and the highest level next to God reserved for the Amish.
Also, you've stated:
"...What happened on the cross is the greatest expression of love in history, immense suffering by an innocent man on behalf of a bunch of people who dont deserve such love. "
...
"A bunch of people who don't deserve His love" means that God's love has conditions tied to it. Is that God's love? We don't "deserve", huh?
I admit... I ain't no fucking angel. I've done some pretty shitty things to people, but, for the most part, I'm good towards people. I haven't killed or murdered anyone... but, I question religion... not just Christianity, all religions.
What do I get? According to your belief... I get the pit of fire.
I ain't buying that. I do not accept God being some kind of judgemental jerk who demands that I love Him. My God accepts me unconditionally... with all of my question, doubts and screw ups... as long as I'm a decent person.
...
I am not trying to split you from your religion. I just think that you originally thought Pearl Jam (Eddie Vedder) was more like you... and you became disillusioned when he decided not to travel the same road as you. None of that is true. Eddie questioned religion at least the whole time he has been in the band... although we don't really know for sure. For all we know, he may be a devout Christian playing the part of an atheist rock musician... but, I seriously doubt it. Turns out, you were never both on the same road.
...
Well... I'm outta here.
peace...
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yes. Its up to you who you believe but most religions tell us that we can make it by our own efforts. Do this, do that, follow these rules. The Bible alone says that we all need a parachute, we cannot make it on our own because, as Paul says in Romans, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That's why the creator of all things got down from his lofty abode, experienced life as a human being, suffered horribly and died on our behalf, and offered himself as a substitute for us. this means that if we accept what he has done, and tell God so, we have a free ride to safety. None of us can boast because its what he did, not how good we are. I know its outrageous and seems too simple, but I have found it to be true. What happened on the cross is the greatest expression of love in history, immense suffering by an innocent man on behalf of a bunch of people who dont deserve such love. This is the fullest expression of God's love for you, how you respond to his offer will determine your destiny. Peace.
I believe our resident "Bible-thumper" is gone for the night. So I'll do my best, based upon my limited understanding of Christianity, to contribute here.
...
And as you stated... 'as Paul says'. Which brings it back to the author. I don't know what Paul's inspiration was.. if there was any intent behind it... any of that. and no matter how much anyone studies about Paul... none of them will ever really know.
Christians believe the Bible, though written by men, to be inspired by God, via the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for scripture means literally "God-breathed." It doesn't neccessarily mean Paul heard voices whilst he was writing ... just that what he wrote is what God willed him to write.
Because it means... it doesn't matter how shitty you are as a person... as long as you believe in Christ, you are saved. This explains how Death Row inmates and convicted murderers find Jesus. If this is true... they have sinned and truely accepted Jesus as their saviour... they are saved, right?
This is exactly what Christians believe. You can be forgiven of anything, so long as you repent of your sins and profess your faith in Christ. But this profession of faith should be accompanied by a corresponding change in your life. When you're saved, supposedly, the Holy Spirit begins to direct your life. If a murderer confesses to accept Christ, and then goes on murdering people, it would be a pretty good sign that the "saving" didn't take.
It's sort of a Catch-22. If you're saved, you can be forgiven of anything. But if you're saved, you shouldn't want to do anything that contradicts God's will.
Conversely, if it does work that way... then, I cannot accept the fact that a Christian like Adolph Hitler gets saved... while Ghandi and the 6 million Jews who died in the halocaust are in Hell. Explain that to me to the point where I say, "Yeah, I accept that". I can tell you... save your breath 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
Under Christian doctrine, yeah, it kind of works that way. Although I would doubt Hitler really saw the error of his ways and repented before he offed himself. So he's burning in hell. But, under Christian doctrine, you're right -- so are all those Jews he murdered.
"A bunch of people who don't deserve His love" means that God's love has conditions tied to it. Is that God's love? We don't "deserve", huh?
I admit... I ain't no fucking angel. I've done some pretty shitty things to people, but, for the most part, I'm good towards people. I haven't killed or murdered anyone... but, I question religion... not just Christianity, all religions.
Under Christian doctrine, none of that matters if it isn't accompanied by faith in Christ.
What do I get? According to your belief... I get the pit of fire.
Yup. Be sure to bring marshmallows.
On another note ... The Who's Tommy is on TV right now. I never realized how butt-fucking awful this thing is. I imagine this is what they show on a constant loop in hell ...
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Just to play devil's advocate here .... there is a rather famous story of Christ walking on water ... if you wanted to read GTF as a Christ-like allegory, this bit certainly would bolster your argument.
I'm not saying it is or it isn't (actually, I tend to lean toward "isn't") ... but at the same time, the parallels between GTF and the Christ story are striking.
Jesus didn't walk on an ocean. Sorry...Sea of Gallilee - didn't Puff the Magic Dragon frolick in the autumn mist there? I see no parallels between the fictional story of Jesus and a true story about a man's love of surfing. The exhilaration of surfing cannot relate to how jesus may have felt when he was resurected from the dead...In Ed's case, you know that for sure (surfing).....Jesus? How can anyone know when it's not known for sure if he really existed? I think the whole lot of those bible folk were having a smoke in a tree....Anyway, until you have had a surf or a moment in nature, you can't understand the feeling...but maybe you have...and I still can't believe that I'm still responding to this thread...
Ed has made "anti-God" comments since the very beginning. I think he said at a very early show that he'd ask god to make it sunny, but he didn't believe in that so he couldn't...
And there's the whole abortion and women's rights issue that are very important to him - the bible isn't exactly a handbook on how to treat women with respect...
Strange spot in the sky? That would be an airplane... Stripped and stabbed - falling on the reefs, territorial surfers (they can be mean!). Despite getting knocked about by the tide and the currents, etc, he was still able to stand on the board and surf - "Look at me now!"
Jesus didn't walk on an ocean. I see no parallels between the fictional story of Jesus and a true story about a man's love of surfing.
Strange spot in the sky? That would be an airplane...
Again, playing devil's advocate ... but Jesus walked on the Sea of Galilee. So the "sea" really was his floor, in that story.
I don't really think GTF is about Jesus.
But I also don't think the entire song is about Ed's love of surfing. That's just silly.
I'm willing to buy surfing "imagery" in that one line, but the song isn't Big Wave II. It's much deeper than that.
Ed: "I imagined the song as a 20-page cardboard (children's) book with a line on each page and a picture to go with it. It's a fable, that's all. The music almost gives you this feeling of flight, and I really love singing the part at the end, which is all about rising above anybody's comments about what you do and still giving your love away. You know? Not becoming bitter and reclusive, not condemning the whole world because of the actions of a few."
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Ok Jeff, come clean. You loves you some Jesus. No one likes to play Devils Advocate that much. Enough of the Bull Pucky.
Well, I'll admit ... the first time I heard GTF, I thought, "Holy shit, this is an allegory about Christ." And knowing Ed's stance on religion (not good), it surprised the hell out of me.
After parsing the lyrics and reading some of the things Ed has said about it, I've come to decide it's not about Christ at all. But it certainly is a fable about someone Christ-like .... someone who's got the answers that will save the world from the mess it's in ... but those answers are so earth-shattering and drastic that the people attack the messenger instead.
In a way, that still sounds like Jesus to me ... but I'm willing to concede otherwise.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Comments
you don't know for sure that you're interpretation of the lyrics is what they are intended to mean.
that's what art/music/literature (and the bible) is about- personal interpretation.
And just like the song... many people can have many different interpretations of the Bible, right? So, who's to say which is the correct interpretation?
Hail, Hail!!!
Just for the record, I called you Scott Stapp, not anarchist grunger, but I was inspired by his Creed comment to do so. He's the bad influence but I actually am guilty. I'll go to the step with him. I hope he's still there. I hope he's cute!
By the way, I'm happy to know you're not a Creed fan. What a waste of brain cells. Christian or not, Scott Stapp is a total DB. Yes, I know that's name-callling but to a long list of jackass offenses he added throwing a liquor bottle at his wife's head only a few months after she gave birth to their daughter (yes I am trying to change the subject)!
But still, peace!
EV Chi 1, 08/21/08
EV Memphis, 06/20/09
how does eternity in hell sound? ;;)
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough, I'm fine now.
Push me pull me. See ya later
<present tense inhabiter #0003 & Even Flow psycho #0036>
no I guess I didn't read slightofjeff's post.
if you realize that not everyone is christian, then why did you say that the "greatest discovery of all" is "being a disciple of jesus"? If you're not christian, that's definitely not going to be your personal "greatest discovery of all."
No, just the step. I'm Christian, remember? Katie Holmes may have given up Jesus for another man, but I won't. Let me know when you're interested in heaven. A know a way to get us off the step and to a better place (see timsinclair, I'm didn't leave my faith at home!).
EV Chi 1, 08/21/08
EV Memphis, 06/20/09
Threw a bottle at his wife!! thats pretty shocking.
So... you agree. There are many interpretations of the Bible. And since we cannot know what the original authors meant, the truth behind them is up for grabs.
I don't know about that whole studying the ancient culture and language thing and finding the truth... I mean, John Lennon is gone... and we know tons and tons of stuff about him... but, who really knows the meaning... if any... of 'I am The Walrus'?
Hail, Hail!!!
-exactly, it's your subjective view, so why are you imposing it on ed? maybe his "greatest discovery of all" is something else and he hasn't missed out on anything.
...right, the truth is same for all of us regarless of what we believe...so...what's your point?
ok, you are making no sense.
"Yes the Bible can be interpreted in many ways but not many valid ways."
Okay, agreement.
...
And you are missing my point...
You can study everything you want about Paul... how he lived, what school he went to what he ate... everything... but you... as in YOU... do not know what he was thinking.
Just like... we know a lot of stuff about John Lennon... but, we don't know what he was thinking.
....
And if you DO believe you know what Paul (not McCartney) was thinking when he penned his gospel... that's YOUR interpretation... or more like your interpretations of the interpretations of the authors of the men whom have studied Paul. It is not Paul, and therefore, it may or may not be true... or not the (absolute) truth.
Hail, Hail!!!
Please... provide examples.
...
Example of truth:
1 + 1 = 2
nothing to interpret. Find a valid, verifiable fact to dispute this.
...
Also... you do not 'Accept the Truth'. It is either the truth or it is not.
Yes... a universal truth is the Universe happened... that is not in dispute. HOW it got here is in dispute. And no one knows the answer to that.
You can have faith in a certain religion or religious belief... and it is truth to you. But it is not universal and it does not apply to me or anyone else.
Hail, Hail!!!
It would be nice if we could create our own reality, we kind of can for a while, and it can be fun but the real truth of our existence will one day be apparent to all. I hope you get a parachute, Jesus is offering you one.
I know this was directed to someone else... but, I ain't buying it.
...
Why is it that Jesus is the parachute?
Because you are the one creating the story, that's why. Someone else can tell the same story, except Jesus is the one asking to believe in Him... and fly like the squirrel.
Right?
Hail, Hail!!!
Gotta go now
See you lot tommorrow
i didnt acknowledge that ed had 'tried' to reconcile what he saw around him with a God. i asked you how do you know he hadnt.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i disagree. and i cant express how strongly i do so. i see evolution when i look at the marine iguanas of the galapagos islands. i see evolution when i look at the flightless cormorant of the galapagos islands. i see evolution when i watch chimpanzees not ony use, but make tools to acquire food. this is what i class as evolution. i believe that one day the hippopotamus will lose the need and use of its legs and go the way of the dugong and the manatee. how do you define evolution?
you say the foundation of evolution is philosophy, what is the foundation of creation?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I believe in human faith... and in hope. But, I know those are just what they are... faith and hope. I do not try to make them to be anything other than that... such as truth.
And as you stated... 'as Paul says'. Which brings it back to the author. I don't know what Paul's inspiration was.. if there was any intent behind it... any of that. and no matter how much anyone studies about Paul... none of them will ever really know.
...
And this is one problem I see... that whole... we are forgiven thing:
"... most religions tell us that we can make it by our own efforts. Do this, do that, follow these rules. The Bible alone says that we all need a parachute, we cannot make it on our own because, as Paul says in Romans, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"...offered himself as a substitute for us. this means that if we accept what he has done, and tell God so, we have a free ride to safety."
...
Because it means... it doesn't matter how shitty you are as a person... as long as you believe in Christ, you are saved. This explains how Death Row inmates and convicted murderers find Jesus. If this is true... they have sinned and truely accepted Jesus as their saviour... they are saved, right?
If it is not right... and they get the pit of fire because of their murderous ways... then, it means that the whole of Christianity is bullshit and it DOES matter what you do in life.
Conversely, if it does work that way... then, I cannot accept the fact that a Christian like Adolph Hitler gets saved... while Ghandi and the 6 million Jews who died in the halocaust are in Hell. Explain that to me to the point where I say, "Yeah, I accept that". I can tell you... save your breath 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
Unless, of course, there are different levels of heaven... the cheap seats where the murderers and rapists and O.J. are gonna be... and the highest level next to God reserved for the Amish.
Also, you've stated:
"...What happened on the cross is the greatest expression of love in history, immense suffering by an innocent man on behalf of a bunch of people who dont deserve such love. "
...
"A bunch of people who don't deserve His love" means that God's love has conditions tied to it. Is that God's love? We don't "deserve", huh?
I admit... I ain't no fucking angel. I've done some pretty shitty things to people, but, for the most part, I'm good towards people. I haven't killed or murdered anyone... but, I question religion... not just Christianity, all religions.
What do I get? According to your belief... I get the pit of fire.
I ain't buying that. I do not accept God being some kind of judgemental jerk who demands that I love Him. My God accepts me unconditionally... with all of my question, doubts and screw ups... as long as I'm a decent person.
...
I am not trying to split you from your religion. I just think that you originally thought Pearl Jam (Eddie Vedder) was more like you... and you became disillusioned when he decided not to travel the same road as you. None of that is true. Eddie questioned religion at least the whole time he has been in the band... although we don't really know for sure. For all we know, he may be a devout Christian playing the part of an atheist rock musician... but, I seriously doubt it. Turns out, you were never both on the same road.
...
Well... I'm outta here.
peace...
Hail, Hail!!!
put a sock in it will yer mate
Christians believe the Bible, though written by men, to be inspired by God, via the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for scripture means literally "God-breathed." It doesn't neccessarily mean Paul heard voices whilst he was writing ... just that what he wrote is what God willed him to write.
This is exactly what Christians believe. You can be forgiven of anything, so long as you repent of your sins and profess your faith in Christ. But this profession of faith should be accompanied by a corresponding change in your life. When you're saved, supposedly, the Holy Spirit begins to direct your life. If a murderer confesses to accept Christ, and then goes on murdering people, it would be a pretty good sign that the "saving" didn't take.
It's sort of a Catch-22. If you're saved, you can be forgiven of anything. But if you're saved, you shouldn't want to do anything that contradicts God's will.
Under Christian doctrine, yeah, it kind of works that way. Although I would doubt Hitler really saw the error of his ways and repented before he offed himself. So he's burning in hell. But, under Christian doctrine, you're right -- so are all those Jews he murdered.
Under Christian doctrine, none of that matters if it isn't accompanied by faith in Christ.
Yup. Be sure to bring marshmallows.
On another note ... The Who's Tommy is on TV right now. I never realized how butt-fucking awful this thing is. I imagine this is what they show on a constant loop in hell ...
for the least they could possibly do
Jesus didn't walk on an ocean. Sorry...Sea of Gallilee - didn't Puff the Magic Dragon frolick in the autumn mist there? I see no parallels between the fictional story of Jesus and a true story about a man's love of surfing. The exhilaration of surfing cannot relate to how jesus may have felt when he was resurected from the dead...In Ed's case, you know that for sure (surfing).....Jesus? How can anyone know when it's not known for sure if he really existed? I think the whole lot of those bible folk were having a smoke in a tree....Anyway, until you have had a surf or a moment in nature, you can't understand the feeling...but maybe you have...and I still can't believe that I'm still responding to this thread...
Ed has made "anti-God" comments since the very beginning. I think he said at a very early show that he'd ask god to make it sunny, but he didn't believe in that so he couldn't...
And there's the whole abortion and women's rights issue that are very important to him - the bible isn't exactly a handbook on how to treat women with respect...
Strange spot in the sky? That would be an airplane... Stripped and stabbed - falling on the reefs, territorial surfers (they can be mean!). Despite getting knocked about by the tide and the currents, etc, he was still able to stand on the board and surf - "Look at me now!"
Again, playing devil's advocate ... but Jesus walked on the Sea of Galilee. So the "sea" really was his floor, in that story.
I don't really think GTF is about Jesus.
But I also don't think the entire song is about Ed's love of surfing. That's just silly.
I'm willing to buy surfing "imagery" in that one line, but the song isn't Big Wave II. It's much deeper than that.
Ed: "I imagined the song as a 20-page cardboard (children's) book with a line on each page and a picture to go with it. It's a fable, that's all. The music almost gives you this feeling of flight, and I really love singing the part at the end, which is all about rising above anybody's comments about what you do and still giving your love away. You know? Not becoming bitter and reclusive, not condemning the whole world because of the actions of a few."
for the least they could possibly do
Ok Jeff, come clean. You loves you some Jesus. No one likes to play Devils Advocate that much. Enough of the Bull Pucky.
:~/
Well, I'll admit ... the first time I heard GTF, I thought, "Holy shit, this is an allegory about Christ." And knowing Ed's stance on religion (not good), it surprised the hell out of me.
After parsing the lyrics and reading some of the things Ed has said about it, I've come to decide it's not about Christ at all. But it certainly is a fable about someone Christ-like .... someone who's got the answers that will save the world from the mess it's in ... but those answers are so earth-shattering and drastic that the people attack the messenger instead.
In a way, that still sounds like Jesus to me ... but I'm willing to concede otherwise.
for the least they could possibly do