Ed and God

timsinclair

I have checked the links from the celebrity atheist list. The quote from the early 1990's seems pretty irrelevant since it is only stating that Ed was unconvinced and uncommited. The first recorded pronouncements of his atheism seem to be from 1998, the year after the recording of yield, which is what I have been saying. He does seem to have been strongly influenced by the Christianity present in U2's music in the early days, as this bio shows: http://www.cathedralstone.net/Pages/PearlJam18.htm . I dont think it is true to say that Ed was an atheist prior to 1998. On the issue of non-believers being lost, I really dont mean to be condescending to anyone. Jimlives- if you think it good to put yourself in anothers frame of mind - surely you must see that, as a follower of Jesus, I am obliged to pass on his worldview. He said 'no-one comes to the father except through me' and that those rejecting his sacrifice would be condemned. I dont condemn anyone, it breaks my heart that so many people I admire (like Ed and co.) reject the message of the gospel.However, I dont think the harshness of Jesus message is what made Ed an atheist. Obviously I can only speculate, but seems to have aquired a keen interest in Darwinism at about the same time. On the celebrity atheist list link, it was this Darwinian theory that he used to justify his atheism.

GarrettSocling

From what I've read, and listening and being a part of the music, I'd say that they were deeply spiritual early on (Master/Slave comes to mind as a spiritual exploration), but I'm not sure I've ever heard Christian undertones.

Lately, their mood has changed, but I'm not sure that they are 'denying truth', regardless of how you might classify that.

I was actually thinking of this myself a few nights ago, I had listened to the bootleg from 9/11/98 and then to some later stuff trying to find out what had changed. Pearl Jam as a band is always 'listening' to themselves, to each other, to the crowd (and I'm not talking about the sound the crowd makes), to the universe in general (I guess you could say they're listening to God, but that would be a simplistic answer). I strongly suspect (but of course have no solid proof) that what has changed is the rest of the world, and Pearl Jam simply echoes back.

Perhaps, like everyone as they grow up, they've become a little disillusioned with life, and that is what you are hearing.

Myself, I always try to hold a vision of what could be, the most perfect thing I could imagine, I try to hold onto it as tight as possible, but this in itself can cause problems as my own emotions lead me astray. I don't think Pearl Jam has recently been interested in perfect beauty as much as the once may have been (whereas they always feel and sound entirely honest to me, which is what I think resonates with all of us who appreciate what they're doing and what they're trying to do), but very recently I think they're coming around again. Beauty and truth may not be one and the same, but they are closely aligned. I hope they begin to align truth, beauty and reality all in one package...

Damn it I'm not making any sense...err, hopefully I'm making a little sense...

I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for Christians or Jesus. I mean, some of his ideals and teachings are very nice, and then some of them are hopefully the corruption of those who came after (thinking here of when Jesus took demons out of people and put them in pigs, who then died painfully, or when he cursed and killed a fig tree with his magic power because it didn't have any figs on it for him to eat). What I'm trying to say is that believing anything that someone else tells you that you can't verify as true yourself is dangerous, and further believing that the Bible is 100% inerrant is, well, ridiculous. Not to 'bash' Christians in particular, my disdain for "only I know what is right and the rest of you are going to burn in hell" is pretty universal.

timsinclair

No, i do see mr faded glory's point, and it is a fair one. It suggests that my relationship with PJ's music should remain the same even though our views are different. As I hinted at in the first response, if it were a minor issue (like mike's choice of guitars!), of course it would not alter the relationship. However the issue of God's existence/non-existence is the biggest issue their is and our position on this question determines our whole philosophical outlook. If you don't believe me, and you are an atheist (which everyone but me seems to be on this thread), try listening to a modern Christian worship album. I expect you will find it painful to listen to, it will grate against your soul. Well, since Yield, PJ's music has begun to do exactly this with me. This is why, contrary to mr faded glory's ingenious analogy, the relationship cannot stay the same. In the 1980's Bob Dylan lost a massive number of fans due to his conversion to Christianity and the overtly Christian lyrics of the albums 'Slow Train Coming' and 'Saved', if a similar thing was ever to happen to PJ, I wonder how many of you would retain the same relationship with their music?

Fahka

Religion shouldn't even be a word. Its a contradiction. If there is such a thing as religion, it is so personal and unique that it makes the term cancel itself out. Don't feel let down that he has "gone in a different direction" than you.. Feel let down that he has sang a different tune over the last couple of years if you must feel let down at all :P You found your way, your path.. so let ed's journey be that, Ed's journey

timsinclair

Wow. At last someone who has felt the change, even if you are not a Christian. You are right when you say that they have lost the vision for 'perfect beuty'. Most of the last album seemed to be just half hearted rock and left wing politics, a far cry from the souring heights of hail hail or GTF. I think the soul has gone and I suggest that this is because the atheistic worldview has no hope, and strangles the spirit. Your post is hugely refreshing, you do make sense.

Fahka

"I want you to know, when it comes to believing in god- I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is FUCKED-UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago." [George Carlin]

Fahka

timsinclair wrote:

Wow. At last someone who has felt the change, even if you are not a Christian. You are right when you say that they have lost the vision for 'perfect beuty'. Most of the last album seemed to be just half hearted rock and left wing politics, a far cry from the souring heights of hail hail or GTF. I think the soul has gone and I suggest that this is because the atheistic worldview has no hope, and strangles the spirit. Your post is hugely refreshing, you do make sense.

I disagree full heartedly. I think the most interesting stuff (music especially) comes out of confusion and lack of direction. Just because someone has convinced themselves there is no god.. does not mean they've given up the search

Wilds

Cat Stevens seems to be a good example of what you might have been hoping for with Pearl Jam.

Cat was searching for answers, searching Christianity, Islam, Spirituality. That Journey was magical. The hope, desire, passion that he put into his music touched millions of people.

Then he found God and Cat Stevens died. He was reborn as Yusef Islam.

I have tremendous respect for what he did now, but I hated him for many years, and I despised Islam for 'Stealing' this amazing person from us. Yes it was selfish.

I try not to judge people who have religion or 'find' religion, but I don't think that is the best choice for me.

My spiritual journey has found me firmly against organized religion. I do not like the greed, corruption, brain washing, proselytization, holier than though attitudes, the "you're going to hell" idea, the negativity towards those not in the fold, or worse the "pity". The fact that Religion is used to control the masses, degrade woman, keep people in power. I don't like the proverbial plate that takes money from people to support the 'Church'.

I realize there is a lot of good that comes from it as well. Sense of community, moral beliefs that people accept or are scared into, that might keep them in line. Genuine idea that people are trying to help others.

I just don't think you need religion to have those good things.

So if Pearl Jam became what Cat Stevens became, I would be sad. As it now stands Eddie seems to share my worldview and that makes my passion for him and PJ's music that much stronger.

I can see if you feel they have moved away from your worldview then I would not blame you from losing your passion for their music.

Perhaps the next logical step for YOU would be to give up Pearl Jam and turn up the Gospel music that fits your current needs.

jimlives

It's interesting, isn't it? Never in a million years would I feel that someone's music, such as christian/gospel rock, "grates against my soul." And yes, I have listened to it. (My grandma is the biggest catholic I've ever met. A person could be a murderer, but if they're catholic...they're okay in her book..scary. She listens to it often.) I choose not to listen to it on my own or go to a concert because..quite frankly..it's awful. And not even the lyrics (which do hold zero depth for me) but the actual instrumental playing. Just my opinion.

Am I an atheist? not yet, still searching for what makes sense to me. and i definitely wouldn't stop listening to pearl jam if they started writing songs that reflected their newfound religion...if that day were to ever come.

I mean, my Dad's an atheist and my best friend is Jewish and my outlook on them when we discuss religion has never ever changed. I don't know why because someone feels differently about their religion than you means that you feel like "a friend has been lost" or however you put it. I know you don't mean to be condescending when you say that, but maybe that's where the problem stems from in the debate between believers and nonbelievers. To YOU, the most important issue is existence or non-existence of god...but that is not the most important issue in my life AT ALL, pretty big, but not HUGE, not optimum. You sound like you assume it is for everyone when you say "However the issue of God's existence/non-existence is the biggest issue their is and our position on this question determines our whole philosophical outlook." Yes, definitely our philosophical outlook..but not the biggest issue for each person. I think these assumptions and preconceived notions are what cause problems between religions, countries, friendships and everyday life.

anarchist_grunger

timsinclair wrote:

Yield's affirmation of faith and heavy allusions to the crucifixion of Jesus in Given to fly,

give me a break )

"I think it's like a movie that was way too popular. It's a story that's been told too many times and just doesn't mean anything. Man lived on the planet -- [placing his fingers an inch apart], this is 5000 years of semi-recorded history. And God and the Bible, that came in somewhere around the middle, maybe 2000. This is the last 2000, this is what we're about to celebrate [indicating about an 1/8th of an inch with his fingers]. Now, humans, in some shape or form, have been on the earth for three million years [pointing across the room to indicate the distance]. So, all this time, from there [gesturing toward the other side of the room], to here [indicating the 1/8th of an inch], there was no God, there was no story, there was no myth and people lived on this planet and they wandered and they gathered and they did all these things. The planet was never threatened. How did they survive for all this time without this belief in God? I'd like to ask this to someone who knows about Christianity and maybe you do. That just seems funny to me."(Eddie Vedder, interview with Janeane Garofalo at Brendan's)

ps: read daniel quinn's ishmael before speculating on yield

jimlives

ps: read daniel quinn's ishmael before speculating on yield [/quote]


love that! awesome.

timsinclair

its been nice talking to you all, would love to reply to all the last posts now but it will have to wait untill tommorow, got an early start in the morning. Goodbye from England. Hope you are all here tommorrow. Peace and goodwill.
Tim

timsinclair

Turns out I cant go to bed yet so you'll have to put up with me for a bit longer.
OK so you wouldn't decribe your distaste for Christian music in quite those terms, you just think its crap (a lot of it is) but you are also not an atheist.The question of God' existence may not be top of everyones list but, philosophically speaking, what question is bigger? Problems between religions exist mainly because their worldviews are incompatible, not because they exagerate the importance of this question. Reality is defined by whether the universe is someones idea or a random explosion. In response to anarchist grunger, I KNOW Ed IS AN ATHEIST NOW, as I keep saying, but i'm glad you brought this quote in now. It shows that Ed's atheism is based on the belief that the earth is as old as evolutionary theory demands. Of course Darwinism rules out the God of the Bible but what if Darwinism is false. It is so engrained in our culture that we absorb it as part of the inherited hardware. The Intelligent Design movement (based in Seattle!!) has, in my view devestated the theory of evolution and the millions of years of earth history that everyone talks about are not facts but beliefs held only because they are necessary for the theory to work. Check http://www.discovery.org/ Really gotta go now. Peace

vedderfan10

timsinclair wrote:

...Yield's affirmation of faith and heavy allusions to the crucifixion of Jesus in Given to fly, made it the the soundtrack to my own recent submission to God'....

Does nobody surf? "Arms wide open with the sea as his floor" refers to SURFING...SURFING...listen to the way the music builds like a wave and then crashes like a wave and the builds like a wave. And what I remember from my religious years, JC was not cruicifed in the water. I believe the sand was his floor...

manipulatedliving

timsinclair wrote:

Forgive me if i'm feeling a little patronised by binfrog's post. Some music might be just about entertainment but I think most would agree that PJ's music, like all good music, is more than this - it is the language of the spirit. If I was reading something in to PJ lyrics that wasn't there, wouldn't I still be doing it? Something fundamental changed around the binaural period, maybe it was Ed jumping on the anti-Bush, anti-evangelical bandwagon...who knows. I did not suggest that Ed was 'religious', just that he was clearly open to the possibility of God, and searching for him up until the binaural period. This is seen in songs like 'sometimes' where Ed is clearly singing to God, saying 'You're God and you've got big hands...seek my part, devote myself etc..' On Yield, Ed seemed to reach the end of this quest with given to fly, which despite Ed's comments playing this down, is clearly about Jesus, 'first he was stripped, then he was stabbed...he still stands and he still gives his love, he just gives it away, and the love recieves is the love that is saved etc..' I was listening to one of the recent live albums the other day and during 'faithfull' ed said: 'hats off to belief, belief in something bigger' but when the song finished he felt the need to retract this, saying: 'I said "belief in something bigger, I dont know about that, how about faith that it will all work out"' The songs seem to take Ed back to where he was in the Yield period, but when they are over he is left in the Godless world he has chosen for himself. It's not that i've lost a friend, more that a friend has become lost.

Ed jumping on the anti-Bush, anti-evangelical bandwagon...
Are you serious?

catefrances

Vedderfan10 wrote:

Does nobody surf? "Arms wide open with the sea as his floor" refers to SURFING...SURFING...listen to the way the music builds like a wave and then crashes like a wave and the builds like a wave. And what I remember from my religious years, JC was not cruicifed in the water. I believe the sand was his floor...

i agree.

A wave came crashing like a fist to the jaw
Delivered him wings, "Hey, look at him now"


given to fly isnt about God. its about finding your own wings and what sets you free.

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

Turns out I cant go to bed yet so you'll have to put up with me for a bit longer.
OK so you wouldn't decribe your distaste for Christian music in quite those terms, you just think its crap (a lot of it is) but you are also not an atheist.The question of God' existence may not be top of everyones list but, philosophically speaking, what question is bigger? Problems between religions exist mainly because their worldviews are incompatible, not because they exagerate the importance of this question. Reality is defined by whether the universe is someones idea or a random explosion. In response to anarchist grunger, I KNOW Ed IS AN ATHEIST NOW, as I keep saying, but i'm glad you brought this quote in now. It shows that Ed's atheism is based on the belief that the earth is as old as evolutionary theory demands. Of course Darwinism rules out the God of the Bible but what if Darwinism is false. It is so engrained in our culture that we absorb it as part of the inherited hardware. The Intelligent Design movement (based in Seattle!!) has, in my view devestated the theory of evolution and the millions of years of earth history that everyone talks about are not facts but beliefs held only because they are necessary for the theory to work. Check http://www.discovery.org/ Really gotta go now. Peace

how do you know ed's atheism isnt based on the realistion that the myth of God is personally unsustainable for him. that he has tried but it makes no sense to him and that he cant reconcile all he sees around him and what he feels within himself, with any god, let alone a christian god.

please explain to me exactly how intelligent design movement has devastated the theory of evolution.

angryyoungman

timsinclair, i can respect what you are saying in a way and religion has gotten a bad name because of radicals and fundamentalists, but like some have said, just enjoy the music and i wouldn't be too concerned about what the songs mean to ed, you could be wrong, you could be right, but whats important is what they mean to you. . .you don't have to agree with everything he is saying to enjoy it

ajedigecko

i respect what you are saying....do not take it personal, because ed does not take it personal if you believe in God. i reach this conclusion because he hangs out with people who do believe in God.
i am not sure how they select their opening bands....but if ed had anything against people who believe in God, he would have selected a different band to open the florida shows with.

WindNoSail

timsinclair wrote:

Turns out I cant go to bed yet so you'll have to put up with me for a bit longer.
OK so you wouldn't decribe your distaste for Christian music in quite those terms, you just think its crap (a lot of it is) but you are also not an atheist.The question of God' existence may not be top of everyones list but, philosophically speaking, what question is bigger? Problems between religions exist mainly because their worldviews are incompatible, not because they exagerate the importance of this question. Reality is defined by whether the universe is someones idea or a random explosion. In response to anarchist grunger, I KNOW Ed IS AN ATHEIST NOW, as I keep saying, but i'm glad you brought this quote in now. It shows that Ed's atheism is based on the belief that the earth is as old as evolutionary theory demands. Of course Darwinism rules out the God of the Bible but what if Darwinism is false. It is so engrained in our culture that we absorb it as part of the inherited hardware. The Intelligent Design movement (based in Seattle!!) has, in my view devestated the theory of evolution and the millions of years of earth history that everyone talks about are not facts but beliefs held only because they are necessary for the theory to work. Check http://www.discovery.org/ Really gotta go now. Peace

This thread really sucked me in, I am mostly impressed by the dialogue I read without any major rants which unfortunately I see mostly when it comes to tough subjects. Noted, many of the posts coming from newer members seemed more disheartened about Ed than those that have a thousand posts....I find that interesting on its own. A generation gap?

So my feeling is this, as a long time fan but mostly someone who does pay attention to the message....and Pearl Jam is a message, no question: It isn't just lyrical, it is soul and spirit, and I can't judge it well, because I am really just another dumb human being, just being me. But, what I think is that Ed is not an aethiest in the sense of total disbelief of something bigger than himself. Too many thoughts and references I have seen/heard to think he is without a clue on the subject. He is just very undecided on the subject as to what/who the source is for all THIS.

A question is sometimes more meaningful than an answer. If you tell me you KNOW God then the lines are drawn. Cultural and religious thought are hardwired in most of us to mean something, and once you are sure, all the assumptions begin about who you are and what your message means. You get pigeonholed.

Right or wrong, Pearl Jam has not IMHO stated the answer, only the questions, and it is worth considering. My feeling and thought is that if you believe in God and Jesus, what does that look like? Can it be different than the preconceptions that are laid on us? Is it possible that religion has been corrupted by human beings to the point we don't even see the source any longer?

I am rambling a bit I know, but to the starter of this thread I don't see what you see because I never decided they had to have a message I agreed with. Not a criticsm of you at all, just understand that what you seek is clarity being delivered from a band called Pearl Jam, and that is far too high an expectation of them.

Jesus' message was total chaos in his time to the standing system of thought. Keeping in mind that it was the Jewish religion that he contridicted in many ways, yet they were apparently the ones who Jesus was given too and created for just because God loved them and then the rest of us (Gentiles). Maybe the point I am trying to make is that we human (even the most religious) can get it wrong so be careful what men you follow in your pursuit of clarity, and sometimes it takes an outsider to illustrate the colors are not just black and white.