Ed and God
timsinclair
Posts: 222
In my own spiritual journey Ed has been a constant voice, a co-searcher of truth. I used to be amazed how new albums seemed to reflect my own searchings. But now we are adrift, worlds apart. From Ten to Yield, Ed's lyrics beat a genuine, honest, and real, path to God. After the metaphysical groping of vitalogy and no code,Yield's affirmation of faith and heavy allusions to the crucifixion of Jesus in Given to fly, made it the the soundtrack to my own recent submission to God. However, although remnants remained on Binaural, it soon became clear that Ed had seen the truth, counted the cost, and turned back. Now I am dismayed by the anti-Christian videos on tenclubs activism page and the 'God is a delusion' messages in Ed's lyrics. I feel gutted that ed did not come along for the ride, he's missed the greatest discovery of all - Life as a disciple of Jesus. I feel like I've lost a friend, am I the only one who feels this way?
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Ermm...yep. You don't need to be 'a disciple of Jesus' to be on a spiritual journey.
If you hate something, don't you do it too
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
ôjô
Any meaning you derive from any text is a combination of the thoughts you bring into it and what the text explicitly states. This is true for everything, including PJ lyrics.
You say GTF is 'clearly' about Jesus. I'd say this is far from clear- to me, it's just a guy who's particularly defiant and wants to make good.
Interesting that you feel patronised by binfrog's post, yet you're happy with referring to Ed as a friend who has become lost. Is this because his worldview is different? Are you suggesting that to feel any other way about spirituality is to become lost?
lifewasted.net
Well said. I disagree with a lot of Ed's views on religion and politics, but I appreciate the dialog. Hearing a dissenting view will either affirm what you believe or make you question it - either way that can't be a bad thing, IMHO.
Hah, nice. I usually respond with "I like stuff" at times like this.
To the original poster who feels patronized by my original response: All I can tell you is that I've seen your kind of post a ton of times before and I never know how to respond. Part of me knows I should just back away slowly, but I inevitably feel the need to respond occasionally.
I just feel like sometimes people look at a few lines or a few words and they 'just know' the lyrics must be about faith or god. "You're god and you've got big hands" may have the word "god" in it, but that doesn't imply the potental for belief in god. "We're faithful" does not imply faith. Heck, look at the trailing section of Faithful:
"M.y.t.h. Belief in the game of controls that keeps us in our box of fear, we never listen to the voice inside so drowned out."
and in Sometimes, sure you have the line "You're god and you've got big hands", but what about the followup later on: "Sometimes I reach to myself, dear God". That seems like a far cry from devotion.
Look, I am all about reading whatever you can into lyrics. I am sure a lot of PJ songs mean something to me, but if I actually knew what Ed/etc meant when he wrote the lyrics I'd be WAY off. I know this will sound a little hypocritical, but I think you too should read whatever you want into the lyrics. I just think there is a difference between open interpretation, and looking for some sort of affirmation that Ed/etc may or may not have some sort of belief in god. You're calling him potentially lost. I think he's about as far from lost as anyone I've ever read lyrics/interviews/thoughts from.
I think if you are a religious person, you might want to just enjoy Pearl Jam for the music, and get your religious spiritual journey on another plane. Pearl Jam, TO ME, is spiritual. But they are not religious...at all.
http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Eddie_Vedder
I'm trying to keep my response away from dwelling on the negative, but when you say:
"I feel gutted that ed did not come along for the ride, he's missed the greatest discovery of all - Life as a disciple of Jesus."
...I feel the need to respond with my own thoughts. Why does Ed's belief or non-belief leave you feeling gutted? That is why I bring up you needing to figure out your religion/beliefs on your own. "I am lost, I'm no guide". It's ok that Ed des not believe in god or Jesus as the son of god. If you do, all the more power to you. Do you like PJ's music? Then enjoy it. Don't worry about Ed missing the Jesus Boat. It's ok.
I did not mean to be patronizing. That's never my intention w/ threads like this.
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
I disagree with Hinny that meaning is found in the thoughts we bring to the songs, sure we can insert our own meaning when words are used in a highly abstract manner but I think true meaning is found in the author's intent. This is a debate we have in Biblical interpretation, but if you buy into such reader-response theory, you can make text mean just about anything you like. Songwriters are often happy for people to insert their own meaning except when it is interpreted in a dangerous way (like someone did with the U2 song exit by claiming that it instructed them to kill someone). When you get to know a person, either personally or by study, you get insights into their thought and this often reveals the true intent of their writings, and thus the real meaning. From all the early interviews, and songs, I dont think I am way off the mark in saying that Ed used to be open to the idea of the God of the Bible. Of course, he had doubts too, and these were included in his lyrics, as Binfrog correctly observes, but something did change during the Binaural period. Yes I have read Jeff's 'God's dice', which I think shows that they were reading about relativity and quantum physics at that point. In response to the Godless implications of quantum theory, Einstein famously said 'God does not play dice', perhaps this is a clue to their rejection of God during this period.
Read the link posted above.
I don't have much to add.
naděje umírá poslední
excellent post.
i think ed may well be spiritual, but more from a nature-inspired perspective. most definitely NOT 'relgious' and especially not for organized religion. yes, i CAN see how those who are religious may well see a lot of religion in some lyrics, but absolutely...it is what YOU infer, and not the intent....b/c ed most definitely speaks out against religion, and his disbelief, etc. spirituality can take many, many forms......
nature has it's own religon, gospel from the land........:)
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I am NOT saying Ed is 'religious'.
Ed is currently an evolutionist and an atheist, as he has made abundantly clear in recent years in both interviews and songs. I am someone who has listened to PJ intently from the very beggining, what I AM saying is that Ed only settled on Atheism during the Binaural period. Before this things were very different, our souls connected because we were both searching for God. After this, I accepted the gospel message that Jesus died for us, and ed rejected it. In response to Hinny, yes! I am saying that without Jesus, all are lost - not because I am cleverer or better than anyone else but because Jesus said that this is the case and I believe him. Peace.
No we dont have to agree, but the existence, or non-existence of God is a little more important than which flavor ice cream you favor dont you think?
http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Eddie_Vedder
Read it. It's fairly simple, it has quotes by Vedder from way before Binaural.
I completely disagree with you, you could be right, but I don't think Ed was looking for god and definitely not that god from the bible.
And I also think it's condescending to say people are lost if they disagree with you.
naděje umírá poslední
I also agree that it is condescending to say that anyone in general and Ed in particular, is lost if they/he haven't joined you and other believers on your ride. I think that might be exactly what he despises the most about religion.
I think you're seeing the trees and missing the forest when it comes to Mr. Faded Glory's amazingly apt point.
Lately, their mood has changed, but I'm not sure that they are 'denying truth', regardless of how you might classify that.
I was actually thinking of this myself a few nights ago, I had listened to the bootleg from 9/11/98 and then to some later stuff trying to find out what had changed. Pearl Jam as a band is always 'listening' to themselves, to each other, to the crowd (and I'm not talking about the sound the crowd makes), to the universe in general (I guess you could say they're listening to God, but that would be a simplistic answer). I strongly suspect (but of course have no solid proof) that what has changed is the rest of the world, and Pearl Jam simply echoes back.
Perhaps, like everyone as they grow up, they've become a little disillusioned with life, and that is what you are hearing.
Myself, I always try to hold a vision of what could be, the most perfect thing I could imagine, I try to hold onto it as tight as possible, but this in itself can cause problems as my own emotions lead me astray. I don't think Pearl Jam has recently been interested in perfect beauty as much as the once may have been (whereas they always feel and sound entirely honest to me, which is what I think resonates with all of us who appreciate what they're doing and what they're trying to do), but very recently I think they're coming around again. Beauty and truth may not be one and the same, but they are closely aligned. I hope they begin to align truth, beauty and reality all in one package...
Damn it I'm not making any sense...err, hopefully I'm making a little sense...
I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for Christians or Jesus. I mean, some of his ideals and teachings are very nice, and then some of them are hopefully the corruption of those who came after (thinking here of when Jesus took demons out of people and put them in pigs, who then died painfully, or when he cursed and killed a fig tree with his magic power because it didn't have any figs on it for him to eat). What I'm trying to say is that believing anything that someone else tells you that you can't verify as true yourself is dangerous, and further believing that the Bible is 100% inerrant is, well, ridiculous. Not to 'bash' Christians in particular, my disdain for "only I know what is right and the rest of you are going to burn in hell" is pretty universal.
I disagree full heartedly. I think the most interesting stuff (music especially) comes out of confusion and lack of direction. Just because someone has convinced themselves there is no god.. does not mean they've given up the search
Cat was searching for answers, searching Christianity, Islam, Spirituality. That Journey was magical. The hope, desire, passion that he put into his music touched millions of people.
Then he found God and Cat Stevens died. He was reborn as Yusef Islam.
I have tremendous respect for what he did now, but I hated him for many years, and I despised Islam for 'Stealing' this amazing person from us. Yes it was selfish.
I try not to judge people who have religion or 'find' religion, but I don't think that is the best choice for me.
My spiritual journey has found me firmly against organized religion. I do not like the greed, corruption, brain washing, proselytization, holier than though attitudes, the "you're going to hell" idea, the negativity towards those not in the fold, or worse the "pity". The fact that Religion is used to control the masses, degrade woman, keep people in power. I don't like the proverbial plate that takes money from people to support the 'Church'.
I realize there is a lot of good that comes from it as well. Sense of community, moral beliefs that people accept or are scared into, that might keep them in line. Genuine idea that people are trying to help others.
I just don't think you need religion to have those good things.
So if Pearl Jam became what Cat Stevens became, I would be sad. As it now stands Eddie seems to share my worldview and that makes my passion for him and PJ's music that much stronger.
I can see if you feel they have moved away from your worldview then I would not blame you from losing your passion for their music.
Perhaps the next logical step for YOU would be to give up Pearl Jam and turn up the Gospel music that fits your current needs.
Am I an atheist? not yet, still searching for what makes sense to me. and i definitely wouldn't stop listening to pearl jam if they started writing songs that reflected their newfound religion...if that day were to ever come.
I mean, my Dad's an atheist and my best friend is Jewish and my outlook on them when we discuss religion has never ever changed. I don't know why because someone feels differently about their religion than you means that you feel like "a friend has been lost" or however you put it. I know you don't mean to be condescending when you say that, but maybe that's where the problem stems from in the debate between believers and nonbelievers. To YOU, the most important issue is existence or non-existence of god...but that is not the most important issue in my life AT ALL, pretty big, but not HUGE, not optimum. You sound like you assume it is for everyone when you say "However the issue of God's existence/non-existence is the biggest issue their is and our position on this question determines our whole philosophical outlook." Yes, definitely our philosophical outlook..but not the biggest issue for each person. I think these assumptions and preconceived notions are what cause problems between religions, countries, friendships and everyday life.
give me a break
"I think it's like a movie that was way too popular. It's a story that's been told too many times and just doesn't mean anything. Man lived on the planet -- [placing his fingers an inch apart], this is 5000 years of semi-recorded history. And God and the Bible, that came in somewhere around the middle, maybe 2000. This is the last 2000, this is what we're about to celebrate [indicating about an 1/8th of an inch with his fingers]. Now, humans, in some shape or form, have been on the earth for three million years [pointing across the room to indicate the distance]. So, all this time, from there [gesturing toward the other side of the room], to here [indicating the 1/8th of an inch], there was no God, there was no story, there was no myth and people lived on this planet and they wandered and they gathered and they did all these things. The planet was never threatened. How did they survive for all this time without this belief in God? I'd like to ask this to someone who knows about Christianity and maybe you do. That just seems funny to me."(Eddie Vedder, interview with Janeane Garofalo at Brendan's)
ps: read daniel quinn's ishmael before speculating on yield
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough, I'm fine now.
Push me pull me. See ya later
<present tense inhabiter #0003 & Even Flow psycho #0036>