What happened to me was that they all put me on a pedastal so high that when I relapsed you'd of thought WWIII started. I've been back out on a relapse about 10 years, yet those 11 years clean won't go away. I still get shit from my kids and they have no idea just what I use and how much. They both use and justify it somehow. They are both addicts!
They piss me off. Theye expect way too much out of me. I am an addict, duh!
This isn't an N.A. or A.A. forum, so not a place to get clean. They have forums like that, by the way.
The title read PJ fans in 12 step recovery. I spent most of my adult life in recovery. I feel my story has room here. If someone can relapse after 11 years, it clearly shows that complacency is nothing to mess around with. Also, I have lots, too many to count, of people I know from the program who all relapsed around their 8 to 9 year mark! That is something everyone in recovery should be aware of. It does happen and too many people, with a lot of clean time, get some kind of thought in their head that they are far removed from using again, they are not, and I know mnay people who have proven that.
I am being honest. I know too many who went back out after 8 years or so. These people worked a good solid program too. They attended meetings often, did service work, did all the things they were suppose to and some. They were pillars of recovery, people most would want as a sponsor, yet they all went back out.
When talking about recovery, you can't bury your head in the sand and act like relapses don't happen, they do and are part of the program. Isn't there a chapter in the N. A. book titled "Relapse and Recovery"? There is cuz its part of the program. I welcome you wishing me hope I get clean, but in return I am wishing you keep that part in your recovery and realize a relapse is a split second away. It is needed to be talked about.
Just you saying this isn't the place to talk about that is one of the reasons I am still staying away from meetings. Meetings are for addicts! You don't have to be clean to attend, and you surely better know the reasons you do attend, its cuz of the possibility of relapse, otherwise you must be cured, eh?
Read the 12 steps of AA again and then read your posts. If you were so involved with AA or NA, you would know that you can't possibly use or drink and work a 12 step program if you are trully and addict/alcoholic. I know that it is a 24 hour program and I am 1 sip away from insanity. Are you telling me that you have figured out a way to use successfully? You must have because you work the 12 steps in every other part of your life. That is bullshit. You are not fulling anybody. Either you forgot what the big book or NA book says or you are in serious denial. Either way, you are really not going to help anybody who wants to stop drinking, especially a newcomer. Save your old AA stories of how much service work you did. You are using and that is the bottom line. I know I don't want to use and I know I have an allergy. I also know there are others here reading this who are just like me. Possibly even you. Your posts are poison to them.
Nope, I haven't found a way to use successfully. But, after so many years in recovery, a lot of those cliche's, that we all end up living by, don't just disappear cuz you relapsed. Therefore, they are just there. It is second nature to use those steps in all your affairs, even thought it has nothing to do with using. You do know that only the first step mentions drugs or alochol, after that all the thinsg you learn in the program are for all areas of your life, and yes, I naturally use them for all areas of my life.
Nw, your langauge to me makes me wonder if you've reached step 12 yet?
All I can say, is I hope you never relapse to learn what I am telling you, but please don't tell me my own experience. It is MINE, not yours, so you haven't a clue.
I hope I never relapse again as well as I know the potential concequences. You have made a good point and I will no longer address your posts.
Tom
TDR
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,904
Each of us SHOULD only speak from our own experience.
Frankly, I welcome Heather and Soul in this forum. They have been respectful and encouraging to the rest of us. So , perhaps we can ALL show them the same respect and dignity shown us. Their experience and sharing of it is invaluable. And who knows, perhaps through sharing with us here , they may decide to try again.
And about the previous page or two. The individual, lives by the steps (drinking or using or not!!) So the group lives by the traditions. I suggest a thorough reading of the third tradition.Speaks to only a desire to stop as a requirement , not actually stopping. Strange I know but true.
It's looking like we have a group going here? Do we not? A blending of all fellowships. Even our Alanoners!!! . Being selfish ,I'm naming this THE PIT GROUP , unless someone has a better idea?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Can I put forward a topic which may be related to the previous pages, as a point of discussion, please?
Given that we have active and former AA regulars speaking here and we are speaking about if it is possible to apply the program outside of AA. It relates to trying to help, not to arguing ( !)
I met a client who started telling me about how stressed she is and how she is having a difficult time personally and is at the point of stomach cramps. She's not a problem drinker, but i thought about the 4th step. I told her to make a couple of lists and and explained to her that it's sometimes necessary to take inventory and reassess your reactions to problems. You can't solve the problems themselves but you can find peace of mind in your reactions to them.
It's a bastardised version of our fourth step and I felt good about helping at the time. However, I wonder if I may have done more harm than good in the end as I gave her a tool with no manual and no back up. I'm sure that it is possible to apply the AA steps to our lives and to reach out to non-AAs with them but I wonder if it is always appropriate? I think that since I've been comfortable with AA I want to share the peace of mind I have found - but it's difficult to relate it to other people without the background of the program.
nice to see this thread. i'll be back here in a month. i was supposed to leave this morning for a 28 day program but i need to have some teeth pulled so i leave in a couple days.
can't wait...
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,904
On the discussion topic.
Well, in my opinion, the steps can be beneficial to just about anyone. I think most people live in such a way that , these things are done without thought. Just the way they live , you know?
Now me on the other hand, I need these things spelled out for me. Just dont come completely natural to me.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Does everyone understand that if the 12 steps were only for those who have quit whatever they go to 12 step meetings for, we wouldn't need meetings. If it were that easy, then just quit and be done with it. It isn't that easy.
I had 11 years. I do understand the steps, etc. I do enjoy being around people who are in a 12 step program. But, there are many things said at meetings that drive me crazy.
Like, "stay with the winners". Well, that would mean no one would want to be around me, since I did relapse. People will say, "don't get in a relationship the first year". There is no where in any book that says that. What it says is, don't make any major changes in the fisrt year.
I could go on and on.
I am happy for those who have found their way to meetings, but it will take me awhile to get past how much I hate them. They did save me all those years, but at this point I need to be around people who have relapsed, after a long time of sobriety, and understand that all that BS said at meetings is just that, BS.
I need to find winners. And it won't be with people who pass all that junk off as truth. My winners at this time are these people who are out here with me and talking with me about getting clean again. We talk about what drove us away, what keeps us away, and what it will take to get back.
I hope I will make it back, until then, I shouldn't be shunned. If people at meetings shun users, then what is the purpose of meetings. None of us went in clean, unless you were locked up or soemthing. Everyone comes in as a user and everyone is one minute away from being what you are shunning. Its the nature of the beast.
okay, I am done. I don't want to have a meeting on a PJ site. They have sites online for that, by the way.
Does everyone understand that if the 12 steps were only for those who have quit whatever they go to 12 step meetings for, we wouldn't need meetings. If it were that easy, then just quit and be done with it. It isn't that easy.
I had 11 years. I do understand the steps, etc. I do enjoy being around people who are in a 12 step program. But, there are many things said at meetings that drive me crazy.
Like, "stay with the winners". Well, that would mean no one would want to be around me, since I did relapse. People will say, "don't get in a relationship the first year". There is no where in any book that says that. What it says is, don't make any major changes in the fisrt year.
I could go on and on.
I am happy for those who have found their way to meetings, but it will take me awhile to get past how much I hate them. They did save me all those years, but at this point I need to be around people who have relapsed, after a long time of sobriety, and understand that all that BS said at meetings is just that, BS.
I need to find winners. And it won't be with people who pass all that junk off as truth. My winners at this time are these people who are out here with me and talking with me about getting clean again. We talk about what drove us away, what keeps us away, and what it will take to get back.
I hope I will make it back, until then, I shouldn't be shunned. If people at meetings shun users, then what is the purpose of meetings. None of us went in clean, unless you were locked up or soemthing. Everyone comes in as a user and everyone is one minute away from being what you are shunning. Its the nature of the beast.
okay, I am done. I don't want to have a meeting on a PJ site. They have sites online for that, by the way.
I had my first 'bad' meeting the other day and it taught me more about staying sober and what I believe AA is than the good ones do. I'll go back to that same group again because I need to speak to them with tolerance and understanding. I can't run away because I had a bad experience.
There are millions of people in AA. All are different and all are at different stages of recovery and understanding of the program. Not everyone is full of love and tolerance, that's life. If you are looking for a reason not to go back to meetings, you'll always find it, because in a million people there are always gonna be at least a few arseholes you can say are holding you back and allow you to justify that decision to yourself.
Why go back? Because you repeatedly claim that you want to get sober and you admit that AA "saved" you before.
(And please know that I really enjoy your contribution to this. I just read this again, after reading a comment below, and I don't wanna sound like I'm not welcoming you here )
If you are looking for a reason not to go back to meetings, you'll always find it..
.
Agree 100%..
and please don't put too much meaning into the "stick with the winners" expression..
My take on it is not about exclusion, it encourages you to surround yourself with people who want to stay sober.. rather than people who will create a temptation to use..
"This here's a REQUEST!"
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,904
Does everyone understand that if the 12 steps were only for those who have quit whatever they go to 12 step meetings for, we wouldn't need meetings. If it were that easy, then just quit and be done with it. It isn't that easy.
I had 11 years. I do understand the steps, etc. I do enjoy being around people who are in a 12 step program. But, there are many things said at meetings that drive me crazy.
Like, "stay with the winners". Well, that would mean no one would want to be around me, since I did relapse. People will say, "don't get in a relationship the first year". There is no where in any book that says that. What it says is, don't make any major changes in the fisrt year.
I could go on and on.
I am happy for those who have found their way to meetings, but it will take me awhile to get past how much I hate them. They did save me all those years, but at this point I need to be around people who have relapsed, after a long time of sobriety, and understand that all that BS said at meetings is just that, BS.
I need to find winners. And it won't be with people who pass all that junk off as truth. My winners at this time are these people who are out here with me and talking with me about getting clean again. We talk about what drove us away, what keeps us away, and what it will take to get back.
I hope I will make it back, until then, I shouldn't be shunned. If people at meetings shun users, then what is the purpose of meetings. None of us went in clean, unless you were locked up or soemthing. Everyone comes in as a user and everyone is one minute away from being what you are shunning. Its the nature of the beast.
okay, I am done. I don't want to have a meeting on a PJ site. They have sites online for that, by the way.
Heather, as far as I'm concerned you are always welcome here. You know its takes all of us , together, to get through. As for the not wanting meeting on a PJ site, well thats kinda what the whole thread has been hasn't it?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
i am so grateful for the rooms of aa and my sponsor. Yes there are things that are said at the meeting that get on my nerves but I don't let it bother me. Each of us needs to find the program that works for us...I am struggling finding balance with everything going on. The meetings are great and the people in my area. All I can say is keep going to meetings but find the ones you really like
Does everyone understand that if the 12 steps were only for those who have quit whatever they go to 12 step meetings for, we wouldn't need meetings. If it were that easy, then just quit and be done with it. It isn't that easy.
I had 11 years. I do understand the steps, etc. I do enjoy being around people who are in a 12 step program. But, there are many things said at meetings that drive me crazy.
Like, "stay with the winners". Well, that would mean no one would want to be around me, since I did relapse. People will say, "don't get in a relationship the first year". There is no where in any book that says that. What it says is, don't make any major changes in the fisrt year.
I could go on and on.
I am happy for those who have found their way to meetings, but it will take me awhile to get past how much I hate them. They did save me all those years, but at this point I need to be around people who have relapsed, after a long time of sobriety, and understand that all that BS said at meetings is just that, BS.
I need to find winners. And it won't be with people who pass all that junk off as truth. My winners at this time are these people who are out here with me and talking with me about getting clean again. We talk about what drove us away, what keeps us away, and what it will take to get back.
I hope I will make it back, until then, I shouldn't be shunned. If people at meetings shun users, then what is the purpose of meetings. None of us went in clean, unless you were locked up or soemthing. Everyone comes in as a user and everyone is one minute away from being what you are shunning. Its the nature of the beast.
okay, I am done. I don't want to have a meeting on a PJ site. They have sites online for that, by the way.
Heather, as far as I'm concerned you are always welcome here. You know its takes all of us , together, to get through. As for the not wanting meeting on a PJ site, well thats kinda what the whole thread has been hasn't it?
LOL!! Yeah it has! It also seems I am right in here talking. Wow, it was such a huge part of my life for so long. I raised my kids through those years. I also went from being a ninth grade drop out to having a bachelors degree. Oh, just so much during that time period. Now, I am in such a different phase of life. I don't mean cuz I am using. I mean cuz the kids are grown. I am getting older. The people I know are all getting older too. Things are just so different.
Oh well, Peace and love to all of you, heather
Save room for dessert!
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,904
Ok, It's strange how even though he's no longer my sponser , I'm still doing as told. Speaking tonight. At his "suggestion"!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Ok, It's strange how even though he's no longer my sponser , I'm still doing as told. Speaking tonight. At his "suggestion"!!!
Oh, are you giving an open talk? They do things different in various parts of the country. I think you are in MI. so I am assuming its an open talk. Is it your first? After I gave my first one, I was on a high for 3 days.
Enjoy.
Does everyone understand that if the 12 steps were only for those who have quit whatever they go to 12 step meetings for, we wouldn't need meetings. If it were that easy, then just quit and be done with it. It isn't that easy.
I had 11 years. I do understand the steps, etc. I do enjoy being around people who are in a 12 step program. But, there are many things said at meetings that drive me crazy.
Like, "stay with the winners". Well, that would mean no one would want to be around me, since I did relapse. People will say, "don't get in a relationship the first year". There is no where in any book that says that. What it says is, don't make any major changes in the fisrt year.
I could go on and on.
I am happy for those who have found their way to meetings, but it will take me awhile to get past how much I hate them. They did save me all those years, but at this point I need to be around people who have relapsed, after a long time of sobriety, and understand that all that BS said at meetings is just that, BS.
I need to find winners. And it won't be with people who pass all that junk off as truth. My winners at this time are these people who are out here with me and talking with me about getting clean again. We talk about what drove us away, what keeps us away, and what it will take to get back.
I hope I will make it back, until then, I shouldn't be shunned. If people at meetings shun users, then what is the purpose of meetings. None of us went in clean, unless you were locked up or soemthing. Everyone comes in as a user and everyone is one minute away from being what you are shunning. Its the nature of the beast.
okay, I am done. I don't want to have a meeting on a PJ site. They have sites online for that, by the way.
I had my first 'bad' meeting the other day and it taught me more about staying sober and what I believe AA is than the good ones do. I'll go back to that same group again because I need to speak to them with tolerance and understanding. I can't run away because I had a bad experience.
There are millions of people in AA. All are different and all are at different stages of recovery and understanding of the program. Not everyone is full of love and tolerance, that's life. If you are looking for a reason not to go back to meetings, you'll always find it, because in a million people there are always gonna be at least a few arseholes you can say are holding you back and allow you to justify that decision to yourself.
Why go back? Because you repeatedly claim that you want to get sober and you admit that AA "saved" you before.
(And please know that I really enjoy your contribution to this. I just read this again, after reading a comment below, and I don't wanna sound like I'm not welcoming you here )
Hmmm....I am not too sure I want to get sober. I didn't think I put that anywhere in what I have wrote.
I remember a guy in the program once telling me that the part of us that wants to get sober sometimes is in the back of our minds and the wanting to use is in the front and the idea is to get the wanting to be clean in the front and the wanting to use in the back.
As it stands, I am okay where I am at.
Perhaps I took "All i have to do now is get clean" out of context, I assumed you meant sober.
Good analogy with the getting clean and the ideas in the head. It is probably healthier to have that warning thought of staying clean in the back of your mind all the time, arrested but not repressed, rather than attempting to take the thought of using out of your mind altogether.
Perhaps I took "All i have to do now is get clean" out of context, I assumed you meant sober.
Good analogy with the getting clean and the ideas in the head. It is probably healthier to have that warning thought of staying clean in the back of your mind all the time, arrested but not repressed, rather than attempting to take the thought of using out of your mind altogether.
Yes, and obviously it isn't out of my mind completely. I use the words "clean" and "sober" interchangeably.
But, it is in the back of my mind and put a little extra cash in my pocket and its a struggle. I never had the addictions I have now back before the 11 years. I can come up with a ton of excuses, medical, etc., but the botom line is yes, I am an addict.
I am seeing a great doctor who doesn't use methadone but this new drug called Suboxone and it does seem to work great. Its up to me to let it.
Google Suboxone and I will tell you whatever you read its all that plus. It eases depression and just uplifts mood period. Its a good start for me.
Kind of a random comment, but I really praise everyone who is participating in the 12 step program. My father was an alcoholic when I was very young, and thankfully he got sober with the help of AA, and has been sober for 14 years now. My mom, even though 9 years divorced from my dad, still goes to AlAnon meetings, as she loves the sense of community, and has even taken me to a few. This is the best thing you could possibly do for yourself. Good luck to all!
"Sometimes you find yourself having to put all your faith in no faith."
~not a dude~
2010: MSGx2
2012: Made In America
2013: Pittsburgh, Brooklynx2, Hartford, Baltimore
2014: Leeds, Milton Keynes, Detroit
2015: Global Citizen Festival
2016: Phillyx2, MSGx2, Fenwayx2 2018: Barcelona, Wrigleyx2
"You know you could starve to death READING a cookbook"!
Makes you think, doesn't it?
LOL, for real!
I have read cookbooks. Interesting read, but won't feed ya'.
Umm.. the point of the quote is you need to do what the book suggests to get any results..
:oops:
:shock: :? believe she got it , locked. These things she knows. Needs the willingness and the action to back that up. Not there right now, but welcome here anyway.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
"Do you think of the glass as half empty or half full?"
"It's as full as it can be today. Tomorrow will be a different glass and that will also be as full as it can be"
we're all going to the same place...
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,904
"Do you think of the glass as half empty or half full?"
"It's as full as it can be today. Tomorrow will be a different glass and that will also be as full as it can be"
An optomist sees the glass as half full,
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty,
The alcoholic says," hey are you going to finish that?"
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
"You know you could starve to death READING a cookbook"!
Makes you think, doesn't it?
LOL, for real!
I have read cookbooks. Interesting read, but won't feed ya'.
Umm.. the point of the quote is you need to do what the book suggests to get any results..
:oops:
Did you catch the part about me being clean in the N.A. program for 11 years? I do know how the program works. Also, one doesn't forget 11 years of that stuff. Yep, 11 years and no relapse. I didn't relapse from the moment I walked into my first meeting. I got it the very first time.
It is these kinds of comments that drive me crazy. It takes a bit more than what the book says. I have to be willing...I am not at this time. It is that simple.
And thank you Mickey for getting where I am at.
I'll put away my clipboard now that I've stopped taking your inventory!
:oops:
That gave me a little laugh. Thanks. That is all I want, to be understood. What works for one person may not for the next. This is why table leaders should not give advice or even any response to what people say. Actually, no one at a table should give their two cents. All anyone can do is share THEIR experiences.
For instance, when my son was 14 he was using heavy duty. I brought it to tables and would get "pray" from all the people. They aren't even suppose to be assisting me in what to do. I didn't ask them what I should do either. I simply shared. They were to give their experiences, and/or talk about their own crap, not tell me what to do, like to pray!
Table leaders are suppose to make sure the group at the table runs smoothly and fair, like making sure everyone gets their turn, no cross talk and stuff like that. It is the group's table, not the leader's. Oh, I know other places, outside Michigan, don't break into small tables, like we do here, so if people who attend 12 step programs elsewhere don't understand what I am talking about, sorry. Here, we break into small tables and everyone gets to share at every meeting, if they want to.
So, no one at a table should TELL me anything. Just share their experiences. I do not want to hear about how I should be going to meetings or I am going to use. I do not want to hear that I should pray.
I can remember being so upset about my son and hearing "solutions" by the people at the table. Not one person there had any right, knowledge or experience to give me "solutions". It also is not why I shared it at tables.
Their telling me crap made me think I was not working the steps right or something. Like, they had all these "answers" for me, like why don't I work this step or that, why don't I read this chapter or that, etc. It would make me think I had the program wrong, when in fact...I was suppose to be feeling bad and no step, chapter, etc. should change that! It makes me human to feel bad if my 14 year old is using. Using made me hide form pain of life. Once clean, I am suppsoe to "feel"! Geez. I remember asking a friend just what does these people expect from me. On one hand they say now I will feel and don't have to hide from it, yet when I feel bad, they say I am not working the program right cuz if I was I wouldn't be feeling bad. So, they would give me advice on what to do to to not feel bad. Dammit I am suppose to feel bad, good, etc. They should had shut up. I think people feel so uncomfortable when others feel bad that they just jump in and tell them anything to make them feel better. That crap made me feel worse cuz it made me feel that there was an answer and "I" just am not working a good enough program. I worked a great program, even when I felt bad. I WAS feeling dammit! No praying or reading the right chapter should take that away!!! If it does, that is not working the program right!!!!
The leader needed to just thank me for sharing and move to whoever is next. If any of the others wanted to address what I had said they needed to only share THEIR experinece with the same issue. If they never had the same issue, then don't address mine at all!
Thanks for listening.
Save room for dessert!
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,904
Yes, to feel again. Getting better at feeling what I feel without taking it out on others.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
My 90 days is on Tuesday and I just wanna say thanks. I'm buzzing from a great meeting and a great week in AA.
I've been bowled over by the the good grace of the people I've had contact with, especially in these last couple of weeks. Letters from far flung places through LIM, kind offers of gifts which mean a lot, invitations to AA Christmas parties and ski trips (from the same group members I was arguing with two weeks ago and wondering if we were ever going to see eye to eye again!). All I have to do now is give away the love if I want to keep it.
I realise now that before I came to AA I was a very lonely and isolated individual in a foreign land. My hobbies were drinking, looking at ten club and arguing with 'er indoors. I'd lost contact with most everyone I cared about back home. I was like the guy in "Off He Goes". Now I feel valued by friends I've never met, encouraged by their words and humbled by their gestures... and the friends I'd lost touch with, at least those worth regaining contact with, is a work in progress. And my ten club addiction has been partially broken too!
Thanks to you all for today and every day. "Zostan z bogiem", as they say in Poland.
T
Comments
Nw, your langauge to me makes me wonder if you've reached step 12 yet?
All I can say, is I hope you never relapse to learn what I am telling you, but please don't tell me my own experience. It is MINE, not yours, so you haven't a clue.
Tom
Frankly, I welcome Heather and Soul in this forum. They have been respectful and encouraging to the rest of us. So , perhaps we can ALL show them the same respect and dignity shown us. Their experience and sharing of it is invaluable. And who knows, perhaps through sharing with us here , they may decide to try again.
And about the previous page or two. The individual, lives by the steps (drinking or using or not!!) So the group lives by the traditions. I suggest a thorough reading of the third tradition.Speaks to only a desire to stop as a requirement , not actually stopping. Strange I know but true.
It's looking like we have a group going here? Do we not? A blending of all fellowships. Even our Alanoners!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Can I put forward a topic which may be related to the previous pages, as a point of discussion, please?
Given that we have active and former AA regulars speaking here and we are speaking about if it is possible to apply the program outside of AA. It relates to trying to help, not to arguing (
I met a client who started telling me about how stressed she is and how she is having a difficult time personally and is at the point of stomach cramps. She's not a problem drinker, but i thought about the 4th step. I told her to make a couple of lists and and explained to her that it's sometimes necessary to take inventory and reassess your reactions to problems. You can't solve the problems themselves but you can find peace of mind in your reactions to them.
It's a bastardised version of our fourth step and I felt good about helping at the time. However, I wonder if I may have done more harm than good in the end as I gave her a tool with no manual and no back up. I'm sure that it is possible to apply the AA steps to our lives and to reach out to non-AAs with them but I wonder if it is always appropriate? I think that since I've been comfortable with AA I want to share the peace of mind I have found - but it's difficult to relate it to other people without the background of the program.
can't wait...
Well, in my opinion, the steps can be beneficial to just about anyone. I think most people live in such a way that , these things are done without thought. Just the way they live , you know?
Now me on the other hand, I need these things spelled out for me. Just dont come completely natural to me.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I had 11 years. I do understand the steps, etc. I do enjoy being around people who are in a 12 step program. But, there are many things said at meetings that drive me crazy.
Like, "stay with the winners". Well, that would mean no one would want to be around me, since I did relapse. People will say, "don't get in a relationship the first year". There is no where in any book that says that. What it says is, don't make any major changes in the fisrt year.
I could go on and on.
I am happy for those who have found their way to meetings, but it will take me awhile to get past how much I hate them. They did save me all those years, but at this point I need to be around people who have relapsed, after a long time of sobriety, and understand that all that BS said at meetings is just that, BS.
I need to find winners. And it won't be with people who pass all that junk off as truth. My winners at this time are these people who are out here with me and talking with me about getting clean again. We talk about what drove us away, what keeps us away, and what it will take to get back.
I hope I will make it back, until then, I shouldn't be shunned. If people at meetings shun users, then what is the purpose of meetings. None of us went in clean, unless you were locked up or soemthing. Everyone comes in as a user and everyone is one minute away from being what you are shunning. Its the nature of the beast.
okay, I am done. I don't want to have a meeting on a PJ site. They have sites online for that, by the way.
I had my first 'bad' meeting the other day and it taught me more about staying sober and what I believe AA is than the good ones do. I'll go back to that same group again because I need to speak to them with tolerance and understanding. I can't run away because I had a bad experience.
There are millions of people in AA. All are different and all are at different stages of recovery and understanding of the program. Not everyone is full of love and tolerance, that's life. If you are looking for a reason not to go back to meetings, you'll always find it, because in a million people there are always gonna be at least a few arseholes you can say are holding you back and allow you to justify that decision to yourself.
Why go back? Because you repeatedly claim that you want to get sober and you admit that AA "saved" you before.
(And please know that I really enjoy your contribution to this. I just read this again, after reading a comment below, and I don't wanna sound like I'm not welcoming you here
Agree 100%..
and please don't put too much meaning into the "stick with the winners" expression..
My take on it is not about exclusion, it encourages you to surround yourself with people who want to stay sober.. rather than people who will create a temptation to use..
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Oh well, Peace and love to all of you, heather
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Enjoy.
I remember a guy in the program once telling me that the part of us that wants to get sober sometimes is in the back of our minds and the wanting to use is in the front and the idea is to get the wanting to be clean in the front and the wanting to use in the back.
As it stands, I am okay where I am at.
Good analogy with the getting clean and the ideas in the head. It is probably healthier to have that warning thought of staying clean in the back of your mind all the time, arrested but not repressed, rather than attempting to take the thought of using out of your mind altogether.
But, it is in the back of my mind and put a little extra cash in my pocket and its a struggle. I never had the addictions I have now back before the 11 years. I can come up with a ton of excuses, medical, etc., but the botom line is yes, I am an addict.
I am seeing a great doctor who doesn't use methadone but this new drug called Suboxone and it does seem to work great. Its up to me to let it.
Google Suboxone and I will tell you whatever you read its all that plus. It eases depression and just uplifts mood period. Its a good start for me.
"You know you could starve to death READING a cookbook"!
Makes you think, doesn't it?
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
I have read cookbooks. Interesting read, but won't feed ya'.
~not a dude~
2010: MSGx2
2012: Made In America
2013: Pittsburgh, Brooklynx2, Hartford, Baltimore
2014: Leeds, Milton Keynes, Detroit
2015: Global Citizen Festival
2016: Phillyx2, MSGx2, Fenwayx2
2018: Barcelona, Wrigleyx2
Umm.. the point of the quote is you need to do what the book suggests to get any results..
:oops:
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
"Do you think of the glass as half empty or half full?"
"It's as full as it can be today. Tomorrow will be a different glass and that will also be as full as it can be"
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty,
The alcoholic says," hey are you going to finish that?"
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
It is these kinds of comments that drive me crazy. It takes a bit more than what the book says. I have to be willing...I am not at this time. It is that simple.
And thank you Mickey for getting where I am at.
I read the tone of your email wrong..
I'll put away my clipboard now that I've stopped taking your inventory!
:oops:
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
For instance, when my son was 14 he was using heavy duty. I brought it to tables and would get "pray" from all the people. They aren't even suppose to be assisting me in what to do. I didn't ask them what I should do either. I simply shared. They were to give their experiences, and/or talk about their own crap, not tell me what to do, like to pray!
Table leaders are suppose to make sure the group at the table runs smoothly and fair, like making sure everyone gets their turn, no cross talk and stuff like that. It is the group's table, not the leader's. Oh, I know other places, outside Michigan, don't break into small tables, like we do here, so if people who attend 12 step programs elsewhere don't understand what I am talking about, sorry. Here, we break into small tables and everyone gets to share at every meeting, if they want to.
So, no one at a table should TELL me anything. Just share their experiences. I do not want to hear about how I should be going to meetings or I am going to use. I do not want to hear that I should pray.
I can remember being so upset about my son and hearing "solutions" by the people at the table. Not one person there had any right, knowledge or experience to give me "solutions". It also is not why I shared it at tables.
Their telling me crap made me think I was not working the steps right or something. Like, they had all these "answers" for me, like why don't I work this step or that, why don't I read this chapter or that, etc. It would make me think I had the program wrong, when in fact...I was suppose to be feeling bad and no step, chapter, etc. should change that! It makes me human to feel bad if my 14 year old is using. Using made me hide form pain of life. Once clean, I am suppsoe to "feel"! Geez. I remember asking a friend just what does these people expect from me. On one hand they say now I will feel and don't have to hide from it, yet when I feel bad, they say I am not working the program right cuz if I was I wouldn't be feeling bad. So, they would give me advice on what to do to to not feel bad. Dammit I am suppose to feel bad, good, etc. They should had shut up. I think people feel so uncomfortable when others feel bad that they just jump in and tell them anything to make them feel better. That crap made me feel worse cuz it made me feel that there was an answer and "I" just am not working a good enough program. I worked a great program, even when I felt bad. I WAS feeling dammit! No praying or reading the right chapter should take that away!!! If it does, that is not working the program right!!!!
The leader needed to just thank me for sharing and move to whoever is next. If any of the others wanted to address what I had said they needed to only share THEIR experinece with the same issue. If they never had the same issue, then don't address mine at all!
Thanks for listening.
So this is what it's like to be human?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I've been bowled over by the the good grace of the people I've had contact with, especially in these last couple of weeks. Letters from far flung places through LIM, kind offers of gifts which mean a lot, invitations to AA Christmas parties and ski trips (from the same group members I was arguing with two weeks ago and wondering if we were ever going to see eye to eye again!). All I have to do now is give away the love if I want to keep it.
I realise now that before I came to AA I was a very lonely and isolated individual in a foreign land. My hobbies were drinking, looking at ten club and arguing with 'er indoors. I'd lost contact with most everyone I cared about back home. I was like the guy in "Off He Goes". Now I feel valued by friends I've never met, encouraged by their words and humbled by their gestures... and the friends I'd lost touch with, at least those worth regaining contact with, is a work in progress. And my ten club addiction has been partially broken too!
Thanks to you all for today and every day. "Zostan z bogiem", as they say in Poland.
T