Yeah I'm sure no one would like the reception they would have from all of the accepting non judgmental people around these parts.
I'm feelin' a bit judgey at this point. Seriously, there is zero reason to not get the shot if you are medically able. and the longer they wait, the longer (and potentially deadly for all of us) this becomes.
I don't know if I've seen this discussed here or not but how about the women who have taken the vaccine and now have irregular menstrual cycles?
Ever since taking the shot in April, my wife has has very irregular menstrual cycles. I didn't put it together until recently I've seen news stories about other people having the same issue. Obviously, this isn't worse than getting COVID and dying but why would this be? I don't think this happens with other MRNA shots but why is this happening with this one and what are the long effects of this? No one knows because THIS vaccine hasn't been around long enough.
I'm not saying without a doubt this is the reason why it is happening but it is happening and it isn't just 1 or 2 women. If the shot is causing this, it does concern me what the long term effects are. We aren't planning on having any more children but this does worry me because I have 3 daughters that aren't quite of age to get the vaccine yet. Regardless, I am still leaning towards giving them the vaccine but this is something unknown and it does concern me quite a bit.
I wouldn't blame others for having this same concern. The female body is nothing short of a miracle and we are injecting something that is changing it.
Bianchi says her team at NIH expedited its grant funding process for this research. “There was an urgency to it, the fact that this was getting so much attention. We were worried this was contributing to vaccine hesitancy in reproductive-age women,” from the article
So what is of greater concern vaccine hesitancy or women's reproductive health?
My body, my choice, right?
I personally know 3 men that have died of COVID. I don't personally know any women that have died of COVID. I know plenty that have gotten it and survived.
Not that my personal experience means anything but I can see how this could concern women.
Yes that is my point I think people are being very self righteous when it comes to pointing out the very valid concerns of others around this topic. People especially women aren't wrong to be concerned about this.
Its fair to be concerned. But does that give us the right to spread respiratory droplets? Its fair to not want the vaccine, but those who make that choice should be willing to make sacrifices to offset the risk they bring into the public domain.
Its fair that people are making a risk assessment and within certain demographics people are categorizing covid risk as low. But this virus will spread until it finds a high risk target. Covid changed the modern world. Plenty of us have shown we care little about the risk we give to others.
Let's say the technology existed to trace an infection to its source, and our govt had the ability to charge spreaders who engaged in risky behavior, such as interacting in public while unvaccinated, for healthcare costs of all downstream infections. Would those opposing the vaccines be as cavalier under that scenario?
If they get off as lightly as tobacco and oil companies for the health damages they have done I don't see why not. Of course that kind of tracing would be a very special kind of invasion of privacy so it is something we hopefully will never have to worry about.
it's a hypothetical to prove social responsibility and moral accountability. yes, or no.
same as asking someone if they'd steal a million dollars if they knew they could get away with it. coming back with "well (this guy did it) and got off, so yeah" is irrelevant to the question posed.
Yeah I'm sure no one would like the reception they would have from all of the accepting non judgmental people around these parts.
I'm feelin' a bit judgey at this point. Seriously, there is zero reason to not get the shot if you are medically able. and the longer they wait, the longer (and potentially deadly for all of us) this becomes.
I don't know if I've seen this discussed here or not but how about the women who have taken the vaccine and now have irregular menstrual cycles?
Ever since taking the shot in April, my wife has has very irregular menstrual cycles. I didn't put it together until recently I've seen news stories about other people having the same issue. Obviously, this isn't worse than getting COVID and dying but why would this be? I don't think this happens with other MRNA shots but why is this happening with this one and what are the long effects of this? No one knows because THIS vaccine hasn't been around long enough.
I'm not saying without a doubt this is the reason why it is happening but it is happening and it isn't just 1 or 2 women. If the shot is causing this, it does concern me what the long term effects are. We aren't planning on having any more children but this does worry me because I have 3 daughters that aren't quite of age to get the vaccine yet. Regardless, I am still leaning towards giving them the vaccine but this is something unknown and it does concern me quite a bit.
I wouldn't blame others for having this same concern. The female body is nothing short of a miracle and we are injecting something that is changing it.
Bianchi says her team at NIH expedited its grant funding process for this research. “There was an urgency to it, the fact that this was getting so much attention. We were worried this was contributing to vaccine hesitancy in reproductive-age women,” from the article
So what is of greater concern vaccine hesitancy or women's reproductive health?
My body, my choice, right?
I personally know 3 men that have died of COVID. I don't personally know any women that have died of COVID. I know plenty that have gotten it and survived.
Not that my personal experience means anything but I can see how this could concern women.
For anyone with a legitimate concern, who's willing to acknowledge the risk they bring to society, and regularly wears PPE in public indoor spaces, it's their right to stay unvaccinated, though they do so to the detriment of society (i.e. prolonging mask mandates in all likelihood). For any business, it's also their right to refuse entry to an unvaccinated individual because it unnecessarily endangers their clients and employees.
Although a person has the right to not get vaccinated, if when the air you exhale has a strong likelihood to make me sick by my being in your presence, then all of a sudden what happens to "my body" becomes "your choice", which is at odds with what we're after. Get vaccinated, or get used to masks and considering other humans.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
United’s deadline for meeting the requirement was Monday, and the carrier said Tuesday it has begun the process of terminating 593 employees who declined to be vaccinated and did not apply for a health or religious exemption. The company said less than 3 percent of its roughly 67,000 workforce applied for exemptions, while 1 percent didn’t comply.
United’s deadline for meeting the requirement was Monday, and the carrier said Tuesday it has begun the process of terminating 593 employees who declined to be vaccinated and did not apply for a health or religious exemption. The company said less than 3 percent of its roughly 67,000 workforce applied for exemptions, while 1 percent didn’t comply.
now they can go work at spirit airlines.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
the president of my company sent out an email today specifying the terms of our vaxx only policy: fully vaxxed by november 26th, if not, you get put on 3 month unpaid leave. if you still aren't fully vaxxed after that, buh bye.
we are a crown corporation with about 200 employees.
the president of my company sent out an email today specifying the terms of our vaxx only policy: fully vaxxed by november 26th, if not, you get put on 3 month unpaid leave. if you still aren't fully vaxxed after that, buh bye.
we are a crown corporation with about 200 employees.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
the president of my company sent out an email today specifying the terms of our vaxx only policy: fully vaxxed by november 26th, if not, you get put on 3 month unpaid leave. if you still aren't fully vaxxed after that, buh bye.
we are a crown corporation with about 200 employees.
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I don't see what's so complicated about this.
Get vaccinated, follow the public health mandates if you're unvaccinated, or stay isolated. Take one of the three options.
Sometimes I wish we lived in a benevolent dictatorship.
Edit: Just to add, this guy was calm, collected, and reasonable. If these were the typical objections and the typical tone, I don't think "anti-vaxxers" would have the reputation they do today. The loudest objections have been politically driven.
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I don't see what's so complicated about this.
Get vaccinated, follow the public health mandates if you're unvaccinated, or stay isolated. Take one of the three options.
Sometimes I wish we lived in a benevolent dictatorship.
Edit: Just to add, this guy was calm, collected, and reasonable. If these were the typical objections and the typical tone, I don't think "anti-vaxxers" would have the reputation they do today. The loudest objections have been politically driven.
HIS biggest thing here for him personally is the fact he has natural immunity. at least one study shows better immunity from those who had covid compared to vax alone. remains to be sen just how long natural immunity is effective.
so the point for some is, where is the accommodations for folks living post covid infection?
and I do agree with his other points on choice. however your choice to not vax shouldn't potentially infect me. so dont vax and utilize all recommemed precautions.
but so many are seeming to throw a tantrum and do as they wish without regard to anyone else.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I won't brush it aside, but with that being said, is there anything more to his logic than "I don't want to and you can't make me"?
I can sympathize with the hesitancy, I also had doubts at first, but in the very least, his position is ignorant to the burden the unvaccinated are putting on health care workers.
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I won't brush it aside, but with that being said, is there anything more to his logic than "I don't want to and you can't make me"?
I can sympathize with the hesitancy, I also had doubts at first, but in the very least, his position is ignorant to the burden the unvaccinated are putting on health care workers.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I won't brush it aside, but with that being said, is there anything more to his logic than "I don't want to and you can't make me"?
I can sympathize with the hesitancy, I also had doubts at first, but in the very least, his position is ignorant to the burden the unvaccinated are putting on health care workers.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I won't brush it aside, but with that being said, is there anything more to his logic than "I don't want to and you can't make me"?
I can sympathize with the hesitancy, I also had doubts at first, but in the very least, his position is ignorant to the burden the unvaccinated are putting on health care workers.
There was a lot more. Guessed you missed it.
I'm under the impression being vaccinated cuts down on rate of transmission, does having covid antibodies also cut down on rate of transmission? I genuinely don't know. He thinks he's all set having already had covid, good for him. What about the people around him?
& am I wrong in saying he's ignorant of the burden the unvaccinated are putting on the healthcare system? That in and of itself is a pretty important reason to get vaccinated if you can, no?
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I won't brush it aside, but with that being said, is there anything more to his logic than "I don't want to and you can't make me"?
I can sympathize with the hesitancy, I also had doubts at first, but in the very least, his position is ignorant to the burden the unvaccinated are putting on health care workers.
There was a lot more. Guessed you missed it.
I'm under the impression being vaccinated cuts down on rate of transmission, does having covid antibodies also cut down on rate of transmission? I genuinely don't know. He thinks he's all set having already had covid, good for him. What about the people around him?
& am I wrong in saying he's ignorant of the burden the unvaccinated are putting on the healthcare system? That in and of itself is a pretty important reason to get vaccinated if you can, no?
I don't know, but i'd imagine that natural immunity mimics vaccinated immunity, so you'd be less likely to transmit if you had natural the same as vaccinated. but again, that's just my non-medical logic at play, nothing more.
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I won't brush it aside, but with that being said, is there anything more to his logic than "I don't want to and you can't make me"?
I can sympathize with the hesitancy, I also had doubts at first, but in the very least, his position is ignorant to the burden the unvaccinated are putting on health care workers.
There was a lot more. Guessed you missed it.
I'm under the impression being vaccinated cuts down on rate of transmission, does having covid antibodies also cut down on rate of transmission? I genuinely don't know. He thinks he's all set having already had covid, good for him. What about the people around him?
& am I wrong in saying he's ignorant of the burden the unvaccinated are putting on the healthcare system? That in and of itself is a pretty important reason to get vaccinated if you can, no?
I don't know, but i'd imagine that natural immunity mimics vaccinated immunity, so you'd be less likely to transmit if you had natural the same as vaccinated. but again, that's just my non-medical logic at play, nothing more.
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I won't brush it aside, but with that being said, is there anything more to his logic than "I don't want to and you can't make me"?
I can sympathize with the hesitancy, I also had doubts at first, but in the very least, his position is ignorant to the burden the unvaccinated are putting on health care workers.
There was a lot more. Guessed you missed it.
I'm under the impression being vaccinated cuts down on rate of transmission, does having covid antibodies also cut down on rate of transmission? I genuinely don't know. He thinks he's all set having already had covid, good for him. What about the people around him?
& am I wrong in saying he's ignorant of the burden the unvaccinated are putting on the healthcare system? That in and of itself is a pretty important reason to get vaccinated if you can, no?
I don't know, but i'd imagine that natural immunity mimics vaccinated immunity, so you'd be less likely to transmit if you had natural the same as vaccinated. but again, that's just my non-medical logic at play, nothing more.
I genuinely don't know either.
I would say so, to an extent…If you are not coughing as much because you don’t have a symptomatic case, you wouldn’t be as much of a spreader, right?
Good morning. Immunization mandates aren’t new. One helped win the American Revolution.
The right to health
The United States owes its existence as a nation partly to an immunization mandate.
In 1777, smallpox was a big enough problem for the bedraggled American army that George Washington thought it could jeopardize the Revolution. An outbreak had already led to one American defeat, at the Battle of Quebec. To prevent more, Washington ordered immunizations — done quietly, so the British would not hear how many Americans were sick — for all troops who had not yet had the virus.
It worked. The number of smallpox cases plummeted, and Washington’s army survived a war of attrition against the world’s most powerful country. The immunization mandate, as Ron Chernow wrote in his 2010 Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of Washington, “was as important as any military measure Washington adopted during the war.”
In the decades that followed, immunization treatments became safer (the Revolutionary War method killed 2 percent or 3 percent of recipients), and mandates became more common, in the military and beyond. They also tended to generate hostility from a small minority of Americans.
A Cambridge, Mass., pastor took his opposition to a smallpox vaccine all the way to the Supreme Court in 1905, before losing. Fifty years later, while most Americans were celebrating the start of a mass vaccination campaign against polio, there were still some dissenters. A United Press wire-service article that ran in newspapers across the country on April 13, 1955, reported:
Hundreds of doctors and registered nurses stood ready to begin the stupendous task of inoculating the millions of children throughout the country.
Some hitches developed, however. In Maryland’s Montgomery County, 4,000 parents flatly refused to let their youngsters receive the vaccine. Two counties in Indiana objected that the plan smacked of socialized medicine.
Many vaccinations, few firings
We are now living through this cycle again. The deadline for many workplace mandates arrived this week, often requiring people to have received a Covid-19 vaccine or face being fired. In California, the deadline for health care workers is today.
As was the case with Washington’s army, the mandates are largely succeeding:
• California’s policy has led thousands of previously unvaccinated medical workers to receive shots in recent weeks. At Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, about 800 additional workers have been vaccinated since the policy was announced last month, bringing the hospital’s vaccination rate to 97 percent, according to my colleague Shawn Hubler.
• When New York State announced a mandate for hospital and nursing-home staff members in August, about 75 percent of them had received a shot. By Monday, the share had risen to 92 percent. The increase amounts to roughly 100,000 newly vaccinated people.
• At Trinity Health, a hospital chain in 22 states, the increase has been similar — to 94 percent from 75 percent, The Times’s Reed Abelson reports. At Genesis HealthCare, which operates long-term-care facilities in 23 states, Covid cases fell by nearly 50 percent after nearly all staff members had finished receiving shots this summer.
Often, the number of people who ultimately refuse the vaccine is smaller than the number who first say they will. Some are persuaded by the information their employer gives them — about the vaccines’ effectiveness and safety, compared with the deadliness of Covid — and others decide they are not really willing to lose their jobs.
A North Carolina hospital system, Novant Health, last week suspended 375 workers, or about 1 percent of its work force, for being unvaccinated. By the end of the week, more than half of them — about 200 — received a shot and were reinstated.
Of course, 175 firings are not nothing. (A Washington Post headline trumpeted the story as “one of the largest-ever mass terminations due to a vaccine mandate.”) United Airlines said this week that it would terminate even more employees — about 600, or less than 1 percent of its U.S. work force.
These firings can create hardship for the workers and short-term disruptions for their employers. But those disruptions tend to be fleeting, because the percentage of workers is tiny. “I’m not seeing any widespread disruptive effect,” Saad Omer of the Yale Institute for Global Health told The Times.
And the benefits — reducing the spread of a deadly virus and lowering the chances it will mutate dangerously in the future — are large
Injury to others
The rationale for workplace mandates revolves around those large benefits: Even in a country that prioritizes individual freedom as much as the U.S. does, citizens do not have the right to harm their colleagues or their colleagues’ families, friends and communities. One person’s right to a healthy life is greater than another person’s right to a specific job.
As Carol Silver-Elliott, the chief executive of Jewish Home Family, a senior-care facility in New Jersey, told ABC News about her company’s mandate, “We felt it was a small price to pay to keep our elders safe, and it is something we feel very, very strongly about.”
After I spent some time reading about the history of vaccine mandates, I was struck by how little the debate has changed over the centuries. In 1905, when the Supreme Court ruled against the Massachusetts pastor who did not want to take a smallpox vaccine, Justice John Marshall Harlan explained that the Constitution did not allow Americans always to behave however they chose. “Real liberty for all could not exist,” Harlan wrote in his majority opinion, if people could act “regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”
(For more on mandates’ history, I recommend a Wall Street Journal essay by David Oshinsky of NYU Langone Health.)
Virus developments:
• AT&T reached a labor agreement to require vaccines for tens of thousands of employees.
• YouTube says it will ban all vaccine misinformation from its platform.
• China is planning a strict bubble around the Winter Olympics in February.
Good morning. Immunization mandates aren’t new. One helped win the American Revolution.
The right to health
The United States owes its existence as a nation partly to an immunization mandate.
In 1777, smallpox was a big enough problem for the bedraggled American army that George Washington thought it could jeopardize the Revolution. An outbreak had already led to one American defeat, at the Battle of Quebec. To prevent more, Washington ordered immunizations — done quietly, so the British would not hear how many Americans were sick — for all troops who had not yet had the virus.
It worked. The number of smallpox cases plummeted, and Washington’s army survived a war of attrition against the world’s most powerful country. The immunization mandate, as Ron Chernow wrote in his 2010 Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of Washington, “was as important as any military measure Washington adopted during the war.”
In the decades that followed, immunization treatments became safer (the Revolutionary War method killed 2 percent or 3 percent of recipients), and mandates became more common, in the military and beyond. They also tended to generate hostility from a small minority of Americans.
A Cambridge, Mass., pastor took his opposition to a smallpox vaccine all the way to the Supreme Court in 1905, before losing. Fifty years later, while most Americans were celebrating the start of a mass vaccination campaign against polio, there were still some dissenters. A United Press wire-service article that ran in newspapers across the country on April 13, 1955, reported:
Hundreds of doctors and registered nurses stood ready to begin the stupendous task of inoculating the millions of children throughout the country.
Some hitches developed, however. In Maryland’s Montgomery County, 4,000 parents flatly refused to let their youngsters receive the vaccine. Two counties in Indiana objected that the plan smacked of socialized medicine.
Many vaccinations, few firings
We are now living through this cycle again. The deadline for many workplace mandates arrived this week, often requiring people to have received a Covid-19 vaccine or face being fired. In California, the deadline for health care workers is today.
As was the case with Washington’s army, the mandates are largely succeeding:
• California’s policy has led thousands of previously unvaccinated medical workers to receive shots in recent weeks. At Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, about 800 additional workers have been vaccinated since the policy was announced last month, bringing the hospital’s vaccination rate to 97 percent, according to my colleague Shawn Hubler.
• When New York State announced a mandate for hospital and nursing-home staff members in August, about 75 percent of them had received a shot. By Monday, the share had risen to 92 percent. The increase amounts to roughly 100,000 newly vaccinated people.
• At Trinity Health, a hospital chain in 22 states, the increase has been similar — to 94 percent from 75 percent, The Times’s Reed Abelson reports. At Genesis HealthCare, which operates long-term-care facilities in 23 states, Covid cases fell by nearly 50 percent after nearly all staff members had finished receiving shots this summer.
Often, the number of people who ultimately refuse the vaccine is smaller than the number who first say they will. Some are persuaded by the information their employer gives them — about the vaccines’ effectiveness and safety, compared with the deadliness of Covid — and others decide they are not really willing to lose their jobs.
A North Carolina hospital system, Novant Health, last week suspended 375 workers, or about 1 percent of its work force, for being unvaccinated. By the end of the week, more than half of them — about 200 — received a shot and were reinstated.
Of course, 175 firings are not nothing. (A Washington Post headline trumpeted the story as “one of the largest-ever mass terminations due to a vaccine mandate.”) United Airlines said this week that it would terminate even more employees — about 600, or less than 1 percent of its U.S. work force.
These firings can create hardship for the workers and short-term disruptions for their employers. But those disruptions tend to be fleeting, because the percentage of workers is tiny. “I’m not seeing any widespread disruptive effect,” Saad Omer of the Yale Institute for Global Health told The Times.
And the benefits — reducing the spread of a deadly virus and lowering the chances it will mutate dangerously in the future — are large
Injury to others
The rationale for workplace mandates revolves around those large benefits: Even in a country that prioritizes individual freedom as much as the U.S. does, citizens do not have the right to harm their colleagues or their colleagues’ families, friends and communities. One person’s right to a healthy life is greater than another person’s right to a specific job.
As Carol Silver-Elliott, the chief executive of Jewish Home Family, a senior-care facility in New Jersey, told ABC News about her company’s mandate, “We felt it was a small price to pay to keep our elders safe, and it is something we feel very, very strongly about.”
After I spent some time reading about the history of vaccine mandates, I was struck by how little the debate has changed over the centuries. In 1905, when the Supreme Court ruled against the Massachusetts pastor who did not want to take a smallpox vaccine, Justice John Marshall Harlan explained that the Constitution did not allow Americans always to behave however they chose. “Real liberty for all could not exist,” Harlan wrote in his majority opinion, if people could act “regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”
(For more on mandates’ history, I recommend a Wall Street Journal essay by David Oshinsky of NYU Langone Health.)
Virus developments:
• AT&T reached a labor agreement to require vaccines for tens of thousands of employees.
• YouTube says it will ban all vaccine misinformation from its platform.
• China is planning a strict bubble around the Winter Olympics in February.
Something that this article doesn't mention is that small pox has a case fatality rate of 30%. Covid-19 is more around the 2-3% range.
I've spoke with multiple people that are refusing to get the vaccine and I've heard more than once that if the case fatality rate was higher, they would get the vaccine. We didn't get into what that number would have to be and who knows, maybe they are full of shit but there is a big difference between smallpox and Covid-19.
The next month is going to be interesting with these vaccine mandates coming down. The vaccine mandates are going to put a huge stress on many industries. My local hospital has a 55% vaccinated rate among the employees. They are already struggling with serving the needs of the public(only 9 hospitalized COVID cases). The walk-in clinic fills up in the morning and you have to wait all day to get help. I'm pretty sure both my local power companies are the same way. As someone who is vaccinated, what am I supposed to do when my local power company has issues keeping our power on because they just fired half their employees? It isn't my fault and I do tell the unvaccinated that I wish they would take it but that's all I can do.
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
I won't brush it aside, but with that being said, is there anything more to his logic than "I don't want to and you can't make me"?
I can sympathize with the hesitancy, I also had doubts at first, but in the very least, his position is ignorant to the burden the unvaccinated are putting on health care workers.
There was a lot more. Guessed you missed it.
I'm under the impression being vaccinated cuts down on rate of transmission, does having covid antibodies also cut down on rate of transmission? I genuinely don't know. He thinks he's all set having already had covid, good for him. What about the people around him?
& am I wrong in saying he's ignorant of the burden the unvaccinated are putting on the healthcare system? That in and of itself is a pretty important reason to get vaccinated if you can, no?
I don't know, but i'd imagine that natural immunity mimics vaccinated immunity, so you'd be less likely to transmit if you had natural the same as vaccinated. but again, that's just my non-medical logic at play, nothing more.
I saw this posted this morning in response to Rand Paul's suggestion that natural immunity is equal to or better than getting vaccinated - it seemed relevant in regards to yesterday's exchange:
“In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus.
The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection.”
EDIT: aaaannnnnddd I just read another study from a different source suggesting the exact opposite, at least w/ the Delta variant.
i am getting the pfizer booster this evening. i have some trips coming up and want to make sure i am protected. also due to the fact that there are so many unvaccinated inpatients with covid at the hospitals i call on. i am not taking any chances.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Good morning. Immunization mandates aren’t new. One helped win the American Revolution.
The right to health
The United States owes its existence as a nation partly to an immunization mandate.
In 1777, smallpox was a big enough problem for the bedraggled American army that George Washington thought it could jeopardize the Revolution. An outbreak had already led to one American defeat, at the Battle of Quebec. To prevent more, Washington ordered immunizations — done quietly, so the British would not hear how many Americans were sick — for all troops who had not yet had the virus.
It worked. The number of smallpox cases plummeted, and Washington’s army survived a war of attrition against the world’s most powerful country. The immunization mandate, as Ron Chernow wrote in his 2010 Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of Washington, “was as important as any military measure Washington adopted during the war.”
In the decades that followed, immunization treatments became safer (the Revolutionary War method killed 2 percent or 3 percent of recipients), and mandates became more common, in the military and beyond. They also tended to generate hostility from a small minority of Americans.
A Cambridge, Mass., pastor took his opposition to a smallpox vaccine all the way to the Supreme Court in 1905, before losing. Fifty years later, while most Americans were celebrating the start of a mass vaccination campaign against polio, there were still some dissenters. A United Press wire-service article that ran in newspapers across the country on April 13, 1955, reported:
Hundreds of doctors and registered nurses stood ready to begin the stupendous task of inoculating the millions of children throughout the country.
Some hitches developed, however. In Maryland’s Montgomery County, 4,000 parents flatly refused to let their youngsters receive the vaccine. Two counties in Indiana objected that the plan smacked of socialized medicine.
Many vaccinations, few firings
We are now living through this cycle again. The deadline for many workplace mandates arrived this week, often requiring people to have received a Covid-19 vaccine or face being fired. In California, the deadline for health care workers is today.
As was the case with Washington’s army, the mandates are largely succeeding:
• California’s policy has led thousands of previously unvaccinated medical workers to receive shots in recent weeks. At Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, about 800 additional workers have been vaccinated since the policy was announced last month, bringing the hospital’s vaccination rate to 97 percent, according to my colleague Shawn Hubler.
• When New York State announced a mandate for hospital and nursing-home staff members in August, about 75 percent of them had received a shot. By Monday, the share had risen to 92 percent. The increase amounts to roughly 100,000 newly vaccinated people.
• At Trinity Health, a hospital chain in 22 states, the increase has been similar — to 94 percent from 75 percent, The Times’s Reed Abelson reports. At Genesis HealthCare, which operates long-term-care facilities in 23 states, Covid cases fell by nearly 50 percent after nearly all staff members had finished receiving shots this summer.
Often, the number of people who ultimately refuse the vaccine is smaller than the number who first say they will. Some are persuaded by the information their employer gives them — about the vaccines’ effectiveness and safety, compared with the deadliness of Covid — and others decide they are not really willing to lose their jobs.
A North Carolina hospital system, Novant Health, last week suspended 375 workers, or about 1 percent of its work force, for being unvaccinated. By the end of the week, more than half of them — about 200 — received a shot and were reinstated.
Of course, 175 firings are not nothing. (A Washington Post headline trumpeted the story as “one of the largest-ever mass terminations due to a vaccine mandate.”) United Airlines said this week that it would terminate even more employees — about 600, or less than 1 percent of its U.S. work force.
These firings can create hardship for the workers and short-term disruptions for their employers. But those disruptions tend to be fleeting, because the percentage of workers is tiny. “I’m not seeing any widespread disruptive effect,” Saad Omer of the Yale Institute for Global Health told The Times.
And the benefits — reducing the spread of a deadly virus and lowering the chances it will mutate dangerously in the future — are large
Injury to others
The rationale for workplace mandates revolves around those large benefits: Even in a country that prioritizes individual freedom as much as the U.S. does, citizens do not have the right to harm their colleagues or their colleagues’ families, friends and communities. One person’s right to a healthy life is greater than another person’s right to a specific job.
As Carol Silver-Elliott, the chief executive of Jewish Home Family, a senior-care facility in New Jersey, told ABC News about her company’s mandate, “We felt it was a small price to pay to keep our elders safe, and it is something we feel very, very strongly about.”
After I spent some time reading about the history of vaccine mandates, I was struck by how little the debate has changed over the centuries. In 1905, when the Supreme Court ruled against the Massachusetts pastor who did not want to take a smallpox vaccine, Justice John Marshall Harlan explained that the Constitution did not allow Americans always to behave however they chose. “Real liberty for all could not exist,” Harlan wrote in his majority opinion, if people could act “regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”
(For more on mandates’ history, I recommend a Wall Street Journal essay by David Oshinsky of NYU Langone Health.)
Virus developments:
• AT&T reached a labor agreement to require vaccines for tens of thousands of employees.
• YouTube says it will ban all vaccine misinformation from its platform.
• China is planning a strict bubble around the Winter Olympics in February.
Months ago on a different forum I used the bolded Supreme Court ruling of 1905 as an example (to a group of non vaccinated individuals) of what the government really can mandate and still was not believed. This is why it’s so frustrating, they deny everything that falls in favor of being vaccinated even if we have proof from decades and decades ago that the government can mandate vaccines. They went so far as to say the SC has no authority over laws. Now I know it’s not everyone who is anti vaccine acts like that but the truth is the majority do and it’s extremely frustrating. They want us to just erase history because FF told them to.
i am getting the pfizer booster this evening. i have some trips coming up and want to make sure i am protected. also due to the fact that there are so many unvaccinated inpatients with covid at the hospitals i call on. i am not taking any chances.
Is it the job that gives you eligibility at this point? I too am all whacked-out on pfizer but have not paid much attention to the booster talk.
i am getting the pfizer booster this evening. i have some trips coming up and want to make sure i am protected. also due to the fact that there are so many unvaccinated inpatients with covid at the hospitals i call on. i am not taking any chances.
Is it the job that gives you eligibility at this point? I too am all whacked-out on pfizer but have not paid much attention to the booster talk.
yes. i am in surgery centers and hospitals every day and the degree of covid screening varies widely at each. i am considered front line since i am in surgery several days per week.
as of now the booster is recommended for those over 65, those that are immunocompromised, and those that work a job with a higher than normal exposure risk. the requirement is it has to be 6 months or more since the second dose. i will be 7 months next week do my doctor said to go ahead and get it now if i can.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
i am getting the pfizer booster this evening. i have some trips coming up and want to make sure i am protected. also due to the fact that there are so many unvaccinated inpatients with covid at the hospitals i call on. i am not taking any chances.
Is it the job that gives you eligibility at this point? I too am all whacked-out on pfizer but have not paid much attention to the booster talk.
yes. i am in surgery centers and hospitals every day and the degree of covid screening varies widely at each. i am considered front line since i am in surgery several days per week.
as of now the booster is recommended for those over 65, those that are immunocompromised, and those that work a job with a higher than normal exposure risk. the requirement is it has to be 6 months or more since the second dose. i will be 7 months next week do my doctor said to go ahead and get it now if i can.
I'm nearing the 6 month mark but it looks like I wouldn't be eligible anyway. You may be the forums first booster recipient, good luck!
i am getting the pfizer booster this evening. i have some trips coming up and want to make sure i am protected. also due to the fact that there are so many unvaccinated inpatients with covid at the hospitals i call on. i am not taking any chances.
Is it the job that gives you eligibility at this point? I too am all whacked-out on pfizer but have not paid much attention to the booster talk.
yes. i am in surgery centers and hospitals every day and the degree of covid screening varies widely at each. i am considered front line since i am in surgery several days per week.
as of now the booster is recommended for those over 65, those that are immunocompromised, and those that work a job with a higher than normal exposure risk. the requirement is it has to be 6 months or more since the second dose. i will be 7 months next week do my doctor said to go ahead and get it now if i can.
I'm nearing the 6 month mark but it looks like I wouldn't be eligible anyway. You may be the forums first booster recipient, good luck!
Good morning. Immunization mandates aren’t new. One helped win the American Revolution.
The right to health
The United States owes its existence as a nation partly to an immunization mandate.
In 1777, smallpox was a big enough problem for the bedraggled American army that George Washington thought it could jeopardize the Revolution. An outbreak had already led to one American defeat, at the Battle of Quebec. To prevent more, Washington ordered immunizations — done quietly, so the British would not hear how many Americans were sick — for all troops who had not yet had the virus.
It worked. The number of smallpox cases plummeted, and Washington’s army survived a war of attrition against the world’s most powerful country. The immunization mandate, as Ron Chernow wrote in his 2010 Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of Washington, “was as important as any military measure Washington adopted during the war.”
In the decades that followed, immunization treatments became safer (the Revolutionary War method killed 2 percent or 3 percent of recipients), and mandates became more common, in the military and beyond. They also tended to generate hostility from a small minority of Americans.
A Cambridge, Mass., pastor took his opposition to a smallpox vaccine all the way to the Supreme Court in 1905, before losing. Fifty years later, while most Americans were celebrating the start of a mass vaccination campaign against polio, there were still some dissenters. A United Press wire-service article that ran in newspapers across the country on April 13, 1955, reported:
Hundreds of doctors and registered nurses stood ready to begin the stupendous task of inoculating the millions of children throughout the country.
Some hitches developed, however. In Maryland’s Montgomery County, 4,000 parents flatly refused to let their youngsters receive the vaccine. Two counties in Indiana objected that the plan smacked of socialized medicine.
Many vaccinations, few firings
We are now living through this cycle again. The deadline for many workplace mandates arrived this week, often requiring people to have received a Covid-19 vaccine or face being fired. In California, the deadline for health care workers is today.
As was the case with Washington’s army, the mandates are largely succeeding:
• California’s policy has led thousands of previously unvaccinated medical workers to receive shots in recent weeks. At Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, about 800 additional workers have been vaccinated since the policy was announced last month, bringing the hospital’s vaccination rate to 97 percent, according to my colleague Shawn Hubler.
• When New York State announced a mandate for hospital and nursing-home staff members in August, about 75 percent of them had received a shot. By Monday, the share had risen to 92 percent. The increase amounts to roughly 100,000 newly vaccinated people.
• At Trinity Health, a hospital chain in 22 states, the increase has been similar — to 94 percent from 75 percent, The Times’s Reed Abelson reports. At Genesis HealthCare, which operates long-term-care facilities in 23 states, Covid cases fell by nearly 50 percent after nearly all staff members had finished receiving shots this summer.
Often, the number of people who ultimately refuse the vaccine is smaller than the number who first say they will. Some are persuaded by the information their employer gives them — about the vaccines’ effectiveness and safety, compared with the deadliness of Covid — and others decide they are not really willing to lose their jobs.
A North Carolina hospital system, Novant Health, last week suspended 375 workers, or about 1 percent of its work force, for being unvaccinated. By the end of the week, more than half of them — about 200 — received a shot and were reinstated.
Of course, 175 firings are not nothing. (A Washington Post headline trumpeted the story as “one of the largest-ever mass terminations due to a vaccine mandate.”) United Airlines said this week that it would terminate even more employees — about 600, or less than 1 percent of its U.S. work force.
These firings can create hardship for the workers and short-term disruptions for their employers. But those disruptions tend to be fleeting, because the percentage of workers is tiny. “I’m not seeing any widespread disruptive effect,” Saad Omer of the Yale Institute for Global Health told The Times.
And the benefits — reducing the spread of a deadly virus and lowering the chances it will mutate dangerously in the future — are large
Injury to others
The rationale for workplace mandates revolves around those large benefits: Even in a country that prioritizes individual freedom as much as the U.S. does, citizens do not have the right to harm their colleagues or their colleagues’ families, friends and communities. One person’s right to a healthy life is greater than another person’s right to a specific job.
As Carol Silver-Elliott, the chief executive of Jewish Home Family, a senior-care facility in New Jersey, told ABC News about her company’s mandate, “We felt it was a small price to pay to keep our elders safe, and it is something we feel very, very strongly about.”
After I spent some time reading about the history of vaccine mandates, I was struck by how little the debate has changed over the centuries. In 1905, when the Supreme Court ruled against the Massachusetts pastor who did not want to take a smallpox vaccine, Justice John Marshall Harlan explained that the Constitution did not allow Americans always to behave however they chose. “Real liberty for all could not exist,” Harlan wrote in his majority opinion, if people could act “regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”
(For more on mandates’ history, I recommend a Wall Street Journal essay by David Oshinsky of NYU Langone Health.)
Virus developments:
• AT&T reached a labor agreement to require vaccines for tens of thousands of employees.
• YouTube says it will ban all vaccine misinformation from its platform.
• China is planning a strict bubble around the Winter Olympics in February.
Something that this article doesn't mention is that small pox has a case fatality rate of 30%. Covid-19 is more around the 2-3% range.
I've spoke with multiple people that are refusing to get the vaccine and I've heard more than once that if the case fatality rate was higher, they would get the vaccine. We didn't get into what that number would have to be and who knows, maybe they are full of shit but there is a big difference between smallpox and Covid-19.
The next month is going to be interesting with these vaccine mandates coming down. The vaccine mandates are going to put a huge stress on many industries. My local hospital has a 55% vaccinated rate among the employees. They are already struggling with serving the needs of the public(only 9 hospitalized COVID cases). The walk-in clinic fills up in the morning and you have to wait all day to get help. I'm pretty sure both my local power companies are the same way. As someone who is vaccinated, what am I supposed to do when my local power company has issues keeping our power on because they just fired half their employees? It isn't my fault and I do tell the unvaccinated that I wish they would take it but that's all I can do.
Are you suggesting the low overall percentage rate of death relative to small pox is acceptable? 2-3% of 320 million is 6,400,000 to 9,600,000. The price to pay so unvaxxed can be selfish pricks?
Buy a generator and have it hard wired into your electrical box (I'm not saying that to be a dick because after a huge ice storm in the northeast a few years ago, there was a huge run on generators and most everyone that I know who lost power, now has one)? Life will go on, except for the 700,000 already dead 'Muricans and the anticipated 1,500 per day between now and the end of October, 46,500 more. What would or will you do if half the power plant staff dies from Covid? Expectations are that there will be another spike come November, December and January, another 91,000 dead at an average of 1,000/day.
Within the country, vaccination rates still vary widely. In some states, nearly 70 percent of people are fully vaccinated. In others, less than half have received even one dose. The gap in vaccination between Democratic and Republican voters continues to widen.
Since Dec. 14, more than 391,992,000 doses of a coronavirus vaccine have been administered in the U.S.
More than 184,335,000 people have completed vaccination, or about 55.52% of the population. Read more in our vaccination tracker.
i am getting the pfizer booster this evening. i have some trips coming up and want to make sure i am protected. also due to the fact that there are so many unvaccinated inpatients with covid at the hospitals i call on. i am not taking any chances.
Is it the job that gives you eligibility at this point? I too am all whacked-out on pfizer but have not paid much attention to the booster talk.
yes. i am in surgery centers and hospitals every day and the degree of covid screening varies widely at each. i am considered front line since i am in surgery several days per week.
as of now the booster is recommended for those over 65, those that are immunocompromised, and those that work a job with a higher than normal exposure risk. the requirement is it has to be 6 months or more since the second dose. i will be 7 months next week do my doctor said to go ahead and get it now if i can.
I'm nearing the 6 month mark but it looks like I wouldn't be eligible anyway. You may be the forums first booster recipient, good luck!
I got my booster on the 12th. Piece of cake.
that's want we want to hear!!
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
Although a person has the right to not get vaccinated, if when the air you exhale has a strong likelihood to make me sick by my being in your presence, then all of a sudden what happens to "my body" becomes "your choice", which is at odds with what we're after. Get vaccinated, or get used to masks and considering other humans.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
United’s deadline for meeting the requirement was Monday, and the carrier said Tuesday it has begun the process of terminating 593 employees who declined to be vaccinated and did not apply for a health or religious exemption. The company said less than 3 percent of its roughly 67,000 workforce applied for exemptions, while 1 percent didn’t comply.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
we are a crown corporation with about 200 employees.
www.headstonesband.com
define crown corporations please?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_corporations_of_Canada
www.headstonesband.com
*** unfortunately I feel the need to come back and say I’m fully vaccinated. Instead of only focusing on lunatics who have insane conspiracy theories about the vaccination, there’s also plenty of people who sound like this guy that get brushed to the side.
Get vaccinated, follow the public health mandates if you're unvaccinated, or stay isolated. Take one of the three options.
Sometimes I wish we lived in a benevolent dictatorship.
Edit: Just to add, this guy was calm, collected, and reasonable. If these were the typical objections and the typical tone, I don't think "anti-vaxxers" would have the reputation they do today. The loudest objections have been politically driven.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I won't brush it aside, but with that being said, is there anything more to his logic than "I don't want to and you can't make me"?
I can sympathize with the hesitancy, I also had doubts at first, but in the very least, his position is ignorant to the burden the unvaccinated are putting on health care workers.
miss the part where he said he already had covid?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I'm under the impression being vaccinated cuts down on rate of transmission, does having covid antibodies also cut down on rate of transmission? I genuinely don't know. He thinks he's all set having already had covid, good for him. What about the people around him?
& am I wrong in saying he's ignorant of the burden the unvaccinated are putting on the healthcare system? That in and of itself is a pretty important reason to get vaccinated if you can, no?
www.headstonesband.com
Good morning. Immunization mandates aren’t new. One helped win the American Revolution.
And the benefits — reducing the spread of a deadly virus and lowering the chances it will mutate dangerously in the future — are large
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html
“In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus.
The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection.”
EDIT: aaaannnnnddd I just read another study from a different source suggesting the exact opposite, at least w/ the Delta variant.
Disregard.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
as of now the booster is recommended for those over 65, those that are immunocompromised, and those that work a job with a higher than normal exposure risk. the requirement is it has to be 6 months or more since the second dose. i will be 7 months next week do my doctor said to go ahead and get it now if i can.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Buy a generator and have it hard wired into your electrical box (I'm not saying that to be a dick because after a huge ice storm in the northeast a few years ago, there was a huge run on generators and most everyone that I know who lost power, now has one)? Life will go on, except for the 700,000 already dead 'Muricans and the anticipated 1,500 per day between now and the end of October, 46,500 more. What would or will you do if half the power plant staff dies from Covid? Expectations are that there will be another spike come November, December and January, another 91,000 dead at an average of 1,000/day.
Within the country, vaccination rates still vary widely. In some states, nearly 70 percent of people are fully vaccinated. In others, less than half have received even one dose. The gap in vaccination between Democratic and Republican voters continues to widen.
Since Dec. 14, more than 391,992,000 doses of a coronavirus vaccine have been administered in the U.S.
More than 184,335,000 people have completed vaccination, or about 55.52% of the population. Read more in our vaccination tracker.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."