Cancelled!

Ledbetterman10

OnWis97 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

OnWis97 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

OnWis97 said:

There's no way teammates just accepted that out of those guys simply because the league had yet to be woke. I don't really know what happened in the locker room but I'm sure it wasn't nice and comfortable for a while. However, players tend to respect guy that can play and put in effort. I'm sure every white player in the NFL is MAGA. And most of the black ones are not. They all live with it; better than most of us do.

I think teammates respected Incognito because the guy he was bullying was seen as "soft." And football is ultimately a "tough guy" sport and culture. Cooper's tirade? When it happened I figured he was done. This was like 15 years after John Rocker faded away into nothing after his tirade.

I don't think the key difference here is "woke" vs. "pre-woke." I think it's "player" vs. "coach/commentator." I think as long as these guys went out and produced, the teammates were willing to swallow it from a teammate. But that teammate doesn't hire coaches, sign players, or determine who gets to start. Maybe this is why Chris Kluwe ("distraction" punter who supported GLBTQ rights) didn't make the team (after the Vikings picked homophobe special teams coach Mike Priefer over him). Gruden literally said that gay players should not be in the league and then he got a job that has a key role in decided who makes the team.

The other difference is "one comment" vs. "a plethora of comments." We're now looking at dozens of emails going after just about anyone you can think of (including football players, given his distaste for taking safety measures for the very guys busting heads for his 9-figure salary).

Riley Cooper? I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's a racist since it was eight years ago. But he is. Well, I know lots of racists with jobs. What I don't know is anyone who sends professional emails using every slur in the book and going after every group in the book. A racist co-worker? I'm sure I have a few. A racist at the top? I hope not. Riley Cooper's presence hurt the league's image, I suppose but he didn't actively hurt the league or the team simply by being there.  Gruden did...at least he certainly may have.

The ideal you want to protect by giving him a pass needs to die.

I'll just address the bolded...

1) Not talking about teammates accepting him. I'm saying if he did the exact same thing now, he'd be gone. Conversely, if Gruden's emails came out then, he wouldn't be forced to resign.

2) No, he didn't literally say that. He said that the league pressured Jeff Fisher into drafting Michael Sam because he's gay. Not sure if that's true. But he didn't say gay players shouldn't be in the league.

3) This is just dumb.

4) Not sure what ideal you're suggesting anyone is trying protect. Nobody saying Gruden should get a pass. I'm just saying he would've gotten one six or seven years ago. 

Is Riley Cooper a racist?

Yes, I would submit to you that anyone that would say "I want to fight ever n***** here" is, in fact, a racist. What's dumb if you saying "I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's racist since it was eight years ago." 

I gave you the opportunity to say "it was eight years ago" or "it was one time." And you didn't. That leaves me with a bit of egg on my face. But most of the right and even middle/left would be willing to say it like that. Most of the anti-wokers would not say that (obviously per anecdotal observation; I have no data).

A bit. 

The Juggler

I think the Gruden thing is worse than the Riley Cooper incident just because there was a history of those emails.

Ironically it was Michael Vick and other black players on the Eagles who stepped up and basically saved Riley Cooper's job/career back then by privately and publicly forgiving him. I don't think it is a certainty that he'd immediately be gone in 2021 if his team was quick to stand up for him like they did in 2013. I can't think of any instances of this happening since then... 

Parksy

More food for thought....   between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits....  a similar observation is made:

7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this,  but not today. 

Personal thought here...  wow. 

I wonder why we tolerated this.  I wonder why it was accepted.  And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No?   Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course. 

I feel like hazing is along the same lines too.  Something that was accepted before, but not today.  

The Juggler

There's no hazing in frats anymore?

OnWis97

Parksy said:

More food for thought....   between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits....  a similar observation is made:

7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this,  but not today. 

Personal thought here...  wow. 

I wonder why we tolerated this.  I wonder why it was accepted.  And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No?   Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course. 

I feel like hazing is along the same lines too.  Something that was accepted before, but not today.  

Maybe I'm old, but 10 years isn't that long. I'm not convinced time is the biggest issue here. So Gruden was sending the emails 10 years ago but how many people were seeing them? He wasn't on TV saying this stuff.

Football (and men's team sports in general, I suppose) is not a leader in some of these issues. Race? Maybe sometimes. LGBTQ? Hell no.  I'd guess the gay bashing in the locker room is still overwhelming (I've read/heard athletes saying it was super prevalent but haven't heard anything for a while).

Ten years ago, I don't think racist outbursts were tolerated and I don't think homophobia was tolerated. At least not significantly more than it is today (in fact maybe a bit less given what's been going on the last five years). I agree with Juggler that Cooper's circumstance in Philly at the time was probably key in keeping him around and the same circumstance could happen now. It was, what, maybe two or three years ago that racist tweets came out from Josh Hader. It came out at the All Star game, players of color forgave him, the home crowd gave him a standing ovation, and he's been the best relief pitcher in baseball ever since.

The biggest difference today from ten years ago may be the amount of scrutiny we have. in 2011, would there ever have been a process that would have uncovered thousands of emails from 2001? There certainly was far less twitter history. And everyone walking around with a video camera that could put something on social media within seconds was in its infancy. I'm 47 years old and I have no memory of a time where dropping an N-bomb was considered OK outside of small like-minded groups. I remember when someone did it on my dorm floor in front of at least a dozen people in 1993. It did not go over well. It was not acceptable. There was nothing to really "cancel" him from...now, had someone been rolling an iphone camera and had it gone viral, may something have happened? Maybe and it would be a reflection of the technology more than the acceptability of what he said.

One problem, I admit, is that the logical conclusion sometimes becomes a purity test of sorts; and a rabbit hole that we cannot dig ourselves out of. "OK, Player X dropped an N-bomb, but Player Y used this racial slur, and then Player Z asked a woman to make him a sandwich, and Player A said he would disown his gay kid if he ever had one via twitter when he was 14 in 2008, and Player B used the "r-word" two years ago." It's difficult to draw lines.

But I'd still maintain the biggest difference between now and ten (or maybe 20) years ago is technology. Now the stupidest things you've said or done are captured on the internet forever. So what do we do with Josh Hader? I don't think we kick him out of MLB for saying gross things when he was a kid. (But I sure as hell don't participate in the standing ovation he got; I thought that was pretty embarrassing). Could he have grown up in that amount of time? Sure. Most people probably don't (except to get smart enough to not put it in writing on the internet) but if we stopped employing every bigot, the economy would crash. If I was a Brewer fan, I would not wear his jersey and I would feel weird cheering for him to succeed. But I cheer for all sorts of unsavory people in sports and other things; they just kept it off twitter.

HughFreakingDillon

Parksy said:

More food for thought....   between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits....  a similar observation is made:

7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this,  but not today. 

Personal thought here...  wow. 

I wonder why we tolerated this.  I wonder why it was accepted.  And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No?   Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course. 

I feel like hazing is along the same lines too.  Something that was accepted before, but not today.  

this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr). 

Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago. 

it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it. 

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

Parksy said:

More food for thought....   between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits....  a similar observation is made:

7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this,  but not today. 

Personal thought here...  wow. 

I wonder why we tolerated this.  I wonder why it was accepted.  And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No?   Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course. 

I feel like hazing is along the same lines too.  Something that was accepted before, but not today.  

this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr). 

Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago. 

it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it. 

Absolutely right on.  Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip?  I know I have. 

Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke". 

Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective.   It's a verb!   "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."

Not, "They are a group of woke people."  No they're not!

gimmesometruth27

I have not heard evidence of this, but let me take a guess.....

the barstool jabronis are defending gruden. because is is the kind of thing they would do.

dankind

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Parksy said:

More food for thought....   between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits....  a similar observation is made:

7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this,  but not today. 

Personal thought here...  wow. 

I wonder why we tolerated this.  I wonder why it was accepted.  And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No?   Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course. 

I feel like hazing is along the same lines too.  Something that was accepted before, but not today.  

this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr). 

Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago. 

it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it. 

Absolutely right on.  Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip?  I know I have. 

Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke". 

Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective.   It's a verb!   "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."

Not, "They are a group of woke people."  No they're not!

It's a word. Even the fossils at Merriam-Webster have added it as the PRIMARY DEFINTION (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke)!

Get woke, grandpa!

JeBurkhardt

Very few people who have been "cancelled" stay that way for very long. There is usually the reaction to whatever the situation is, and then next thing you know they are right back in the public eye. It would be pretty interesting to see a list of the people who have been called on to be cancelled, because my guess is that most of them have as high of a profile as before.  

eddiec

JeBurkhardt said:

Very few people who have been "cancelled" stay that way for very long. There is usually the reaction to whatever the situation is, and then next thing you know they are right back in the public eye. It would be pretty interesting to see a list of the people who have been called on to be cancelled, because my guess is that most of them have as high of a profile as before.  

Some get more famous. There are definitely people I never knew about until their 'cancellation'.

OnWis97

JeBurkhardt said:

Very few people who have been "cancelled" stay that way for very long. There is usually the reaction to whatever the situation is, and then next thing you know they are right back in the public eye. It would be pretty interesting to see a list of the people who have been called on to be cancelled, because my guess is that most of them have as high of a profile as before.  

There are entertainers that have a difficult time getting work, I think. But it's not usually because the "PC Police" have stopped them. He's too old now, but someone like Bill Cosby would probably legitimately be cancelled. But that's probably OK.

I do think that the reaction to "cancelling" is actually way bigger than the actual cancelling. Analogy: I remember when it came out that Vince Vaughn was a Trump fan (or conservative or whatever). I was on twitter, clicked his name when he was trending and I'll conservatively say I saw 25 people complaining about "everyone criticizing him" for every one person that actually criticized him. He wasn't cancelled; and if he was it was probably a right-wing self-fulfilling prophecy. They created the (illusion of ) cancellation to win points in the culture war.

HughFreakingDillon

OnWis97 said:

JeBurkhardt said:

Very few people who have been "cancelled" stay that way for very long. There is usually the reaction to whatever the situation is, and then next thing you know they are right back in the public eye. It would be pretty interesting to see a list of the people who have been called on to be cancelled, because my guess is that most of them have as high of a profile as before.  

There are entertainers that have a difficult time getting work, I think. But it's not usually because the "PC Police" have stopped them. He's too old now, but someone like Bill Cosby would probably legitimately be cancelled. But that's probably OK.

I do think that the reaction to "cancelling" is actually way bigger than the actual cancelling. Analogy: I remember when it came out that Vince Vaughn was a Trump fan (or conservative or whatever). I was on twitter, clicked his name when he was trending and I'll conservatively say I saw 25 people complaining about "everyone criticizing him" for every one person that actually criticized him. He wasn't cancelled; and if he was it was probably a right-wing self-fulfilling prophecy. They created the (illusion of ) cancellation to win points in the culture war.

agreed. one of the issues is that people assume because a hashtag is trending, that means all the people using it agree with it. people use a hashtag to be part of a social conversation, whether they agree with the premise of the hashtag or not. 

tempo_n_groove

Parksy said:

More food for thought....   between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits....  a similar observation is made:

7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this,  but not today. 

Personal thought here...  wow. 

I wonder why we tolerated this.  I wonder why it was accepted.  And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No?   Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course. 

I feel like hazing is along the same lines too.  Something that was accepted before, but not today.  

A locker room is a much different place than an office.  It's arrested development for some.  Others is a group or brotherhood and they aren't always the most cosmopolitan of people.  There have been people like a Chris Carter whom played quite a few years ago that has said publicly that he wouldn't tolerate that type of talk around him.  He was one of the few former players that I have ever heard say this.

Meltdown99

Important to remember that LV also had a player come out as gay and this is who his coach was...

brianlux

dankind said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Parksy said:

More food for thought....   between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits....  a similar observation is made:

7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this,  but not today. 

Personal thought here...  wow. 

I wonder why we tolerated this.  I wonder why it was accepted.  And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No?   Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course. 

I feel like hazing is along the same lines too.  Something that was accepted before, but not today.  

this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr). 

Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago. 

it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it. 

Absolutely right on.  Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip?  I know I have. 

Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke". 

Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective.   It's a verb!   "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."

Not, "They are a group of woke people."  No they're not!

It's a word. Even the fossils at Merriam-Webster have added it as the PRIMARY DEFINTION (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke)!

Get woke, grandpa!

Damn kids are ruining the language! 

Where's my Metamucil goddammit!

dankind

brianlux said:

dankind said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Parksy said:

More food for thought....   between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits....  a similar observation is made:

7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this,  but not today. 

Personal thought here...  wow. 

I wonder why we tolerated this.  I wonder why it was accepted.  And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No?   Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course. 

I feel like hazing is along the same lines too.  Something that was accepted before, but not today.  

this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr). 

Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago. 

it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it. 

Absolutely right on.  Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip?  I know I have. 

Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke". 

Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective.   It's a verb!   "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."

Not, "They are a group of woke people."  No they're not!

It's a word. Even the fossils at Merriam-Webster have added it as the PRIMARY DEFINTION (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke)!

Get woke, grandpa!

Damn kids are ruining the language! 

Where's my Metamucil goddammit!

As a fairly stodgy editor, I push back on these types of terms all the time with authors.

That is, until M-W comes along and decides to deplete my pen of red ink.

brianlux

dankind said:

brianlux said:

dankind said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Parksy said:

More food for thought....   between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits....  a similar observation is made:

7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this,  but not today. 

Personal thought here...  wow. 

I wonder why we tolerated this.  I wonder why it was accepted.  And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No?   Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course. 

I feel like hazing is along the same lines too.  Something that was accepted before, but not today.  

this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr). 

Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago. 

it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it. 

Absolutely right on.  Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip?  I know I have. 

Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke". 

Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective.   It's a verb!   "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."

Not, "They are a group of woke people."  No they're not!

It's a word. Even the fossils at Merriam-Webster have added it as the PRIMARY DEFINTION (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke)!

Get woke, grandpa!

Damn kids are ruining the language! 

Where's my Metamucil goddammit!

As a fairly stodgy editor, I push back on these types of terms all the time with authors.

That is, until M-W comes along and decides to deplete my pen of red ink.

Good job!  I hope you don't have too many "vinyls" or "shop locals" to deal with! 

Parksy

Who wants to discuss Dave Chappelle?     

Andddd... go. 

tempo_n_groove

Parksy said:

Who wants to discuss Dave Chappelle?     

Andddd... go. 

He won't be cancelled, that's for sure.