Capitol Hill Riots

cincybearcat

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

When did cops endure hundreds of years of oppression? when have they been indiscriminately killed or abused or harassed because of their uniform by people in positions of authority?

when did black people choose to be black, like cops chose to be cops?

when has there ever been a parade attended by prominent people in government when a black person is killed?

i'd say blue lives have always mattered, and doesn't require a slogan, awareness, or acknowledgement of really any kind over an above what is already done. 

1) Never
2) Never .... since you added people in position of authority
3) Never
4) George Floyd

I think it's clear that these are 2 different issues.  The lack of respect for police in some communities is extremely disturbing.  I suspect (have no data) that awful police tactics helped create that mistrust however.

#3 don't forget MLK, Medgar Evers, etc. Point is understood but not true about any Black person. 

I assume you're referring to #4, and yes, I should have quantified it with "regular black member of society". 

Yes but people that become officers and perform the job with honor are certainly worthy a "parade" if killed in the line of duty.  It's an extremely tough job, extremely dangerous in many places.  

HughFreakingDillon

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

When did cops endure hundreds of years of oppression? when have they been indiscriminately killed or abused or harassed because of their uniform by people in positions of authority?

when did black people choose to be black, like cops chose to be cops?

when has there ever been a parade attended by prominent people in government when a black person is killed?

i'd say blue lives have always mattered, and doesn't require a slogan, awareness, or acknowledgement of really any kind over an above what is already done. 

1) Never
2) Never .... since you added people in position of authority
3) Never
4) George Floyd

I think it's clear that these are 2 different issues.  The lack of respect for police in some communities is extremely disturbing.  I suspect (have no data) that awful police tactics helped create that mistrust however.

#3 don't forget MLK, Medgar Evers, etc. Point is understood but not true about any Black person. 

I assume you're referring to #4, and yes, I should have quantified it with "regular black member of society". 

Yes but people that become officers and perform the job with honor are certainly worthy a "parade" if killed in the line of duty.  It's an extremely tough job, extremely dangerous in many places.  

I'm honestly on the fence about that. obviously I thank them for their service, but it's not like it's a volunteer/superhero position. they chose it. we don't have a parade for other professions that are killed in the line of their duty, and it's actually proven that there are more dangerous jobs than being a cop. 

it's not even in the top 10. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html

RLM (Roofers Lives Matter)

mace1229

HughFreakingDillon said:

When did cops endure hundreds of years of oppression? when have they been indiscriminately killed or abused or harassed because of their uniform by people in positions of authority?

when did black people choose to be black, like cops chose to be cops?

when has there ever been a parade attended by prominent people in government when a black person is killed?

i'd say blue lives have always mattered, and doesn't require a slogan, awareness, or acknowledgement of really any kind over an above what is already done. 

They may not have faced years of oppression, but they have certainly been indiscriminately targeted and killed. I just gave a single example where that happened to 12 officers at once. Which is the point really. Police are indiscriminately targeted and killed, and actually at a higher rate. With over 100 cops killed every year and only about 700,000 active police, you have a higher chance of being killed if you're a cop than a black person has of being killed by a cop. It isn't even close. But that isnt what its about, its not about black or cop. Only those against police make it blacks against cops. Its about saving lives. But we're not allowed to openly say I am pro cop. I am not allowed to openly support police in my school. If you openly do support police you are called racist.
I very rarely speak out for police because of the backlash it gets and the sensitive nature of my job. Here is about the only place I do. I made one comment on facebook a few months ago condemning the random shoot of the 2 cops in the head while they sat in their car in LA. And that I was disgusted over the video of the witnesses cheering on the shooter and then laughing at the police while they try to bandage their own head wounds. And it was disgusting. I had more responses calling me racist for that than people willing to say the shooting was wrong. And that's why Blue Lives Matter even exists. 

F Me In The Brain

Shooting people is almost always wrong.

(Even when the person shot stole a box of cigars, is asleep in bed in their apartment, or when they are pulled over for a moving violation, or run unarmed from police in the other direction...)

PJNB

Not sure how this turned into a blacks vs cops debate but I look forward to the day that good cops stop protecting bad cops just because they are on the same team. I doubt I will see it in my lifetime though. 

FiveBelow

Like many current issues, the loudest proponents are those who don't know what it is like to be who they are speaking out for (not singling anyone out). We need a better way to elevate those who should be speaking and instead of muddying the message with all of the back and forth from people who can't relate, we should just listen instead. I cannot pretend to know what it is like to live as a person of color, I also cannot pretend to know what it is like to leave my house knowing that I may be targeted because of my profession. Feeling or being targeted is the correlation between the two and I can feel for both. To argue Hugh’s point, the dangers of performing your job and being killed by someone because of your job are two completely different topics. It makes me anxious just looking at those old pics of iron workers eating lunch on an I-beam hundreds of feet in the air.

F Me In The Brain

JW269453 said:

Like many current issues, the loudest proponents are those who don't know what it is like to be who they are speaking out for (not singling anyone out). We need a better way to elevate those who should be speaking and instead of muddying the message with all of the back and forth from people who can't relate, we should just listen instead. I cannot pretend to know what it is like to live as a person of color, I also cannot pretend to know what it is like to leave my house knowing that I may be targeted because of my profession. Feeling or being targeted is the correlation between the two and I can feel for both. To argue Hugh’s point, the dangers of performing your job and being killed by someone because of your job are two completely different topics. It makes me anxious just looking at those old pics of iron workers eating lunch on an I-beam hundreds of feet in the air.

My personal belief is that everyone who can recognize systemic racism in America should either speak against it or speak for it, if that is what they believe.  You do not have to be a person of color to speak out against the problems we have.

I either misunderstand your position or am baffled by it. 

FiveBelow

F Me In The Brain said:

JW269453 said:

Like many current issues, the loudest proponents are those who don't know what it is like to be who they are speaking out for (not singling anyone out). We need a better way to elevate those who should be speaking and instead of muddying the message with all of the back and forth from people who can't relate, we should just listen instead. I cannot pretend to know what it is like to live as a person of color, I also cannot pretend to know what it is like to leave my house knowing that I may be targeted because of my profession. Feeling or being targeted is the correlation between the two and I can feel for both. To argue Hugh’s point, the dangers of performing your job and being killed by someone because of your job are two completely different topics. It makes me anxious just looking at those old pics of iron workers eating lunch on an I-beam hundreds of feet in the air.

My personal belief is that everyone who can recognize systemic racism in America should either speak against it or speak for it, if that is what they believe.  You do not have to be a person of color to speak out against the problems we have.

I either misunderstand your position or am baffled by it. 

I am not saying people should not voice their opinions, but I do not think that my voice carries as much weight as those who know the struggle. I want them to be at the forefront.

tbergs

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

Hobbes said:

OnWis97 said:

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

The silence from the Blue Lives Matter crowd these last few weeks has been deafening.

Because essentially everyone condemns the riot. I have yet to personally hear a single person say this was the right thing to do. Sure, I've heard a few people say a friend of a friend of a friend said so maybe, but the overwhelming majority of the country knows this riot was wrong. Therefore I don't see a reason to speak out for Blue LM. Blue LM has always been, from my understanding and experience, a response to people targeting cops. This riot wasn't about targeting the police nor does anyone support the violence that happened here. Now if you hear people chanting they should have killed more cops so they can enter the capitol, that'd be a different story. 

Dude Blue Lives Matter is just a subtle way for assholes to say black lives don’t matter, always has been always will be.

Yep.  Blue lives didn't really matter much on the 6th, nor in the aftermath. 

Of course nobody's coming out and saying the rioting was good (not even the people that clearly wanted it to be successful). But I'm not really seeing a lot of them Backing the Blue, either.

Didn't really matter before, either. The 6th exposed that. Just a racially-charged retort to BLM, as stated above.

I've had this argument a few times before. I just have to say I strongly disagree. Blue LM wasn't about saying Black lives don't matter. It was a response to the violence that targeting police. I recognize that most of the protests were peaceful, but if some of the protests didn't turn into riots or violence targeting police, Blue LM never would have happened. In this current culture we are in it seems like we are either for black lives or for police lives (or against police violence). I don't understand why we can't be for both, I am.

Blue Lives Matter was a racist Dog Whistle long before the protests last summer.  As soon as people started banding together under the Black Lives Matter maybe around Ferguson the Blue Lives Matter fools made it up for the exact purpose of negating that Black Lives Matter.

Police have been killed in protests long before this summer too.
2016, 12 cops shot and 5 killed by a gunman targetting police out of his hate for white police officers. Does that not deserve a response of Blue Lives Matter? When are we allowed to say a cop's life matters?
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/dallas-police-ambush/protests-spawn-cities-across-u-s-over-police-shootings-black-n605686

When have cops lives ever not mattered? You can't compare the two. Pretty sure cops have had the power their entire existence. The rally of Blue Lives Matter insinuates they once didn't. That's bullshit. Maybe we need to start a Children's Lives Matter faction since so many think shooting up schools and targeting kids is ok.

stuckinline

FBI is looking for the person who planted the pipe bombs:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/29/politics/washington-pipe-bombs-dnc-rnc/index.html

dankind

JW269453 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

JW269453 said:

Like many current issues, the loudest proponents are those who don't know what it is like to be who they are speaking out for (not singling anyone out). We need a better way to elevate those who should be speaking and instead of muddying the message with all of the back and forth from people who can't relate, we should just listen instead. I cannot pretend to know what it is like to live as a person of color, I also cannot pretend to know what it is like to leave my house knowing that I may be targeted because of my profession. Feeling or being targeted is the correlation between the two and I can feel for both. To argue Hugh’s point, the dangers of performing your job and being killed by someone because of your job are two completely different topics. It makes me anxious just looking at those old pics of iron workers eating lunch on an I-beam hundreds of feet in the air.

My personal belief is that everyone who can recognize systemic racism in America should either speak against it or speak for it, if that is what they believe.  You do not have to be a person of color to speak out against the problems we have.

I either misunderstand your position or am baffled by it. 

I am not saying people should not voice their opinions, but I do not think that my voice carries as much weight as those who know the struggle. I want them to be at the forefront.

They’ve been at they forefront for centuries, and they’re tired. Tired of being ignored because of the very system they’re at the forefront of fighting against. 

Things are so fucked up that YOUR voice carries MORE weight. 

Thinking that it shouldn’t won’t change that. So please speak up for your fellow humans until they’re voices are heard and respected enough to no longer be ignored. 

We’re in this thing together. 

FiveBelow

dankind said:

JW269453 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

JW269453 said:

Like many current issues, the loudest proponents are those who don't know what it is like to be who they are speaking out for (not singling anyone out). We need a better way to elevate those who should be speaking and instead of muddying the message with all of the back and forth from people who can't relate, we should just listen instead. I cannot pretend to know what it is like to live as a person of color, I also cannot pretend to know what it is like to leave my house knowing that I may be targeted because of my profession. Feeling or being targeted is the correlation between the two and I can feel for both. To argue Hugh’s point, the dangers of performing your job and being killed by someone because of your job are two completely different topics. It makes me anxious just looking at those old pics of iron workers eating lunch on an I-beam hundreds of feet in the air.

My personal belief is that everyone who can recognize systemic racism in America should either speak against it or speak for it, if that is what they believe.  You do not have to be a person of color to speak out against the problems we have.

I either misunderstand your position or am baffled by it. 

I am not saying people should not voice their opinions, but I do not think that my voice carries as much weight as those who know the struggle. I want them to be at the forefront.

They’ve been at they forefront for centuries, and they’re tired. Tired of being ignored because of the very system they’re at the forefront of fighting against. 

Things are so fucked up that YOUR voice carries MORE weight. 

Thinking that it shouldn’t won’t change that. So please speak up for your fellow humans until they’re voices are heard and respected enough to no longer be ignored. 

We’re in this thing together. 

I disagree that they have been at the forefront, I feel like they have been overshadowed or spoken for. There has to be a better way to elevate the message with them delivering it. Instead we get hashtags and homemade signs plastered all over the news. I agree that we are all in this together and I long for the days where human compassion is universal.

F Me In The Brain

The problem with being in the minority is that the majority has a pretty clear path to ignoring the desires of the minority 

Those white folks who want their game to continue, to support white privilege, are the same damn fools who marched on the capital.

cincybearcat

HughFreakingDillon said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

When did cops endure hundreds of years of oppression? when have they been indiscriminately killed or abused or harassed because of their uniform by people in positions of authority?

when did black people choose to be black, like cops chose to be cops?

when has there ever been a parade attended by prominent people in government when a black person is killed?

i'd say blue lives have always mattered, and doesn't require a slogan, awareness, or acknowledgement of really any kind over an above what is already done. 

1) Never
2) Never .... since you added people in position of authority
3) Never
4) George Floyd

I think it's clear that these are 2 different issues.  The lack of respect for police in some communities is extremely disturbing.  I suspect (have no data) that awful police tactics helped create that mistrust however.

#3 don't forget MLK, Medgar Evers, etc. Point is understood but not true about any Black person. 

I assume you're referring to #4, and yes, I should have quantified it with "regular black member of society". 

Yes but people that become officers and perform the job with honor are certainly worthy a "parade" if killed in the line of duty.  It's an extremely tough job, extremely dangerous in many places.  

I'm honestly on the fence about that. obviously I thank them for their service, but it's not like it's a volunteer/superhero position. they chose it. we don't have a parade for other professions that are killed in the line of their duty, and it's actually proven that there are more dangerous jobs than being a cop. 

it's not even in the top 10. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html

RLM (Roofers Lives Matter)

Oh c’mon. Those other jobs are dangerous mostly because they don’t use safety devices and protocols that are well known. It’s not even the same. 

Police and firefighters are a different story.  

brianlux

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

When did cops endure hundreds of years of oppression? when have they been indiscriminately killed or abused or harassed because of their uniform by people in positions of authority?

when did black people choose to be black, like cops chose to be cops?

when has there ever been a parade attended by prominent people in government when a black person is killed?

i'd say blue lives have always mattered, and doesn't require a slogan, awareness, or acknowledgement of really any kind over an above what is already done. 

1) Never
2) Never .... since you added people in position of authority
3) Never
4) George Floyd

I think it's clear that these are 2 different issues.  The lack of respect for police in some communities is extremely disturbing.  I suspect (have no data) that awful police tactics helped create that mistrust however.

#3 don't forget MLK, Medgar Evers, etc. Point is understood but not true about any Black person. 

I assume you're referring to #4, and yes, I should have quantified it with "regular black member of society". 

Yes but people that become officers and perform the job with honor are certainly worthy a "parade" if killed in the line of duty.  It's an extremely tough job, extremely dangerous in many places.  

I'm honestly on the fence about that. obviously I thank them for their service, but it's not like it's a volunteer/superhero position. they chose it. we don't have a parade for other professions that are killed in the line of their duty, and it's actually proven that there are more dangerous jobs than being a cop. 

it's not even in the top 10. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html

RLM (Roofers Lives Matter)

Oh c’mon. Those other jobs are dangerous mostly because they don’t use safety devices and protocols that are well known. It’s not even the same. 

Police and firefighters are a different story.  

I agree that police and fire are of a different nature, but those other jobs are dangerous as hell no matter what safety devices and protocols are in place.  In all of them, there are things that can go wrong that are unforeseen.  It's the nature of those jobs. 

hedonist

brianlux said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

When did cops endure hundreds of years of oppression? when have they been indiscriminately killed or abused or harassed because of their uniform by people in positions of authority?

when did black people choose to be black, like cops chose to be cops?

when has there ever been a parade attended by prominent people in government when a black person is killed?

i'd say blue lives have always mattered, and doesn't require a slogan, awareness, or acknowledgement of really any kind over an above what is already done. 

1) Never
2) Never .... since you added people in position of authority
3) Never
4) George Floyd

I think it's clear that these are 2 different issues.  The lack of respect for police in some communities is extremely disturbing.  I suspect (have no data) that awful police tactics helped create that mistrust however.

#3 don't forget MLK, Medgar Evers, etc. Point is understood but not true about any Black person. 

I assume you're referring to #4, and yes, I should have quantified it with "regular black member of society". 

Yes but people that become officers and perform the job with honor are certainly worthy a "parade" if killed in the line of duty.  It's an extremely tough job, extremely dangerous in many places.  

I'm honestly on the fence about that. obviously I thank them for their service, but it's not like it's a volunteer/superhero position. they chose it. we don't have a parade for other professions that are killed in the line of their duty, and it's actually proven that there are more dangerous jobs than being a cop. 

it's not even in the top 10. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html

RLM (Roofers Lives Matter)

Oh c’mon. Those other jobs are dangerous mostly because they don’t use safety devices and protocols that are well known. It’s not even the same. 

Police and firefighters are a different story.  

I agree that police and fire are of a different nature, but those other jobs are dangerous as hell no matter what safety devices and protocols are in place.  In all of them, there are things that can go wrong that are unforeseen.  It's the nature of those jobs. 

Yup. And I think that losing your life to save or protect another’s is pretty fucking heroic. 

Merkin Baller

I think most people agree that police officers killed in the line of duty are heroes. 

Which begs the question why isn’t there more outrage about the GOP trying to memory hole the events of 1/6? 

Why aren’t there more cries for justice for Brian Sicknick? 

The silence around this is deafening.

cincybearcat

brianlux said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

When did cops endure hundreds of years of oppression? when have they been indiscriminately killed or abused or harassed because of their uniform by people in positions of authority?

when did black people choose to be black, like cops chose to be cops?

when has there ever been a parade attended by prominent people in government when a black person is killed?

i'd say blue lives have always mattered, and doesn't require a slogan, awareness, or acknowledgement of really any kind over an above what is already done. 

1) Never
2) Never .... since you added people in position of authority
3) Never
4) George Floyd

I think it's clear that these are 2 different issues.  The lack of respect for police in some communities is extremely disturbing.  I suspect (have no data) that awful police tactics helped create that mistrust however.

#3 don't forget MLK, Medgar Evers, etc. Point is understood but not true about any Black person. 

I assume you're referring to #4, and yes, I should have quantified it with "regular black member of society". 

Yes but people that become officers and perform the job with honor are certainly worthy a "parade" if killed in the line of duty.  It's an extremely tough job, extremely dangerous in many places.  

I'm honestly on the fence about that. obviously I thank them for their service, but it's not like it's a volunteer/superhero position. they chose it. we don't have a parade for other professions that are killed in the line of their duty, and it's actually proven that there are more dangerous jobs than being a cop. 

it's not even in the top 10. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html

RLM (Roofers Lives Matter)

Oh c’mon. Those other jobs are dangerous mostly because they don’t use safety devices and protocols that are well known. It’s not even the same. 

Police and firefighters are a different story.  

I agree that police and fire are of a different nature, but those other jobs are dangerous as hell no matter what safety devices and protocols are in place.  In all of them, there are things that can go wrong that are unforeseen.  It's the nature of those jobs. 

Some of those. Maybe the top 3, and driving...although those fatalities are most likely very preventable as well. The rest? No reason for a fatality. Thing dont just happen, people make choices, bad ones. Either the company or the worker

mickeyrat

Merkin Baller said:

I think most people agree that police officers killed in the line of duty are heroes. 

Which begs the question why isn’t there more outrage about the GOP trying to memory hole the events of 1/6? 

Why aren’t there more cries for justice for Brian Sicknick? 

The silence around this is deafening.

Officer Sicknick will lie in state in the Capital Rotunda all next week.

The following week the Instigator-in-Chief will be tried.....

mrussel1

mickeyrat said:

Merkin Baller said:

I think most people agree that police officers killed in the line of duty are heroes. 

Which begs the question why isn’t there more outrage about the GOP trying to memory hole the events of 1/6? 

Why aren’t there more cries for justice for Brian Sicknick? 

The silence around this is deafening.

Officer Sicknick will lie in state in the Capital Rotunda all next week.

The following week the Instigator-in-Chief will be tried.....

It's comically appropriate that his legal team is all quitting because he is insisting that the focus of the defense strategy is election fraud.  It looks like we might have Rudy running point on defense after all!