Cleveland Indians to drop "Indians" from team name after 105 years

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 

I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?

basketball shoes are for black people only? news to me. 

paying homage via the arts is not the same as caricaturizing a whole group of people based on racist tropes. 

No,  no.  You know damn well the shoes are a style issue,  not strictly for playing.  Second it is appropriation and white people are getting rich on it, even the arts.  Third,  no one is arguing to keep the name Indians.  The question is whether Tribe is appropriate.  It's not racist. It's not a caricature. Brian said it's appropriation.  That's true.  But how is it insulting or any different than the examples I put forth. 

k, maybe i don't know the history of air jordan's, but how is it appropriation when it was simply a guy who got paid to put his name on a product for marketing purposes? it's also not appropriation for a white person to buy Dre's Beats headphones. 

because tribe, as you said, is already a nickname for Indians. i'm not quite sure how you don't see that as a problem. why even bother changing the name if all you're doing is changing it, as I said before, to Indians Light?

Meltdown99

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Just move away from anything 1st nation related.  Should not be hard to do...

You can not take a name that is traditionally used by 1st nations and use it for your shitty baseball team in your shitty city on your stolen land...

Fuck off. You Toronto fans are just pissed because we kick your ass regularly. 

LOL.  I'm not much of a baseball fan and can not stand the Jays.  Or just about anything Toronto...

OnWis97

To whatever degree white kids' choice of dress is appropriating black culture, it's not the same as a huge business (that happens to be a sports team that an entire region rallies behind) doing so; not to mention selling merchandise, etc.

I have no ties to any native-named team, so I probably don't have a strong sense to the attachment that fans have to those teams.  But I just have a difficult time seeing Indians to Tribe as an improvement.

Truth be told, I'm not sure where I stand on names like Indians, Chiefs, and Braves. (Washington absolutely had to change). I might be OK living in a world in which those names stay even though you'll never see a new team take on such a name. But I find most of the imagery and rituals embarrassing. The Tomahawk Chop made me cringe when it first hit the scene when I was about 17 (against my team, the Twins in 1991). I am not even comfortable with the Chiefs arrowhead logo. If I were a Chiefs fan, I might wear their stuff but I'd probably avoid the arrow. So I guess I kinda think it's time for them to go away, even though "that's not necessary" is in the back of my mind.

I went to the Braves Unnecessary New Suburban Ball Park a couple of years ago.  And I noticed a lot of fairly expensive lighted signage with "Atlanta," "Braves," and "Atlanta Braves" wordmarks, just like on the jerseys. But those wordmarks never had the tomahawk.  The only expensive signage I saw with a tomahawk was the "Chop House" restaurant beyond the right field seats; the logo is two crossed tomahawks very much in team colors.  It kinda struck me that they might be preparing for the day that the tomahawk needs to go away.

brianlux

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 

I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?

Other than traditional costume, I don't think there is a well defined cultural affiliation with clothing.  I will say, at best it looks a bit embarrassing and silly when a rocker like Dee Dee Ramone dresses like a rapper. 

Mixed race jazz bands go back a long way and few black jazz musicians today or in the past have had strong objections to white musicians playing jazz.  On the other hand, some will strongly object to white jazz musicians being given better opportunity or recognition for the music.  For example, in the early 70's I took a jazz appreciation class at San Francisco state under the tutelage of black recording jazz artist John Handy.  John told us that in many circles, big band jazz was often attributed to white bands like the Glenn Miller Orchestra or Tommy Dorsey's band, etc.  Handy did not object to these bands playing jazz music, but he did object to the fact that they were given credit for creating music that was originally created by and better written and performed  black jazz bands-  orchestras led by the likes of Duke Ellington and Count Basie.  Those white bands were also paid better and given better accommodations. Handy and most other black performers argued rightly that racism was an obvious component in how the music was received and rewarded, but there was no mention of cultural appropriation in white bands playing jazz.  And some of the greatest jazz musicians have had integrated jazz band from Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker hiring Red Rodney (and having to claim Rodney was an albino black in order to play in some clubs) to Mile Davis working with white musicians.

So of course cultural appropriation is not a factor in jazz.  But racism certainly has been.

tbergs

MayDay10 said:

bbiggs said:

MayDay10 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.

I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.

Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

Its about continuing to profit off the characterization of a race of people who seem to be making it clear that they are not comfortable with this stuff.  i dont know if they will take as much offense or not.  Im sure some people will.  Maybe "Tribe" will be considered over-the-line in 15 years?   
You know fans will come dressed in head dresses.  Maybe bring foam tomahawks, gotta be careful what is depicted on merchandise, etc...  It will still keep the door open for Chief Wahoo.   Would people just call them the "Indians" like they currently call them the "Tribe"?  

Tribe also leaves them where they are now for branding, which is kind of a purgatory/nowhere to go.  I sense the team would like a clean break from anything Native American so they can sell merch and create sharper looking uniforms

I think this would be the biggest reason to move past Tribe. What the hell do you even use as the image for your brand? It's dead in the water and the only purpose seems to be a nostalgic shout out to the previous name. They need a fresh start that sounds good, looks good and sells. This is a big opportunity that most franchises don't get so they should spend a lot of time and money getting this right. If they do, they'll sell a ton of merch to their fan base and anyone who just thinks it looks good.

I loved that mid-90's Cleveland team and was rooting for them to win the WS, even as a MN fan whose team had gone in the dumper in the middle of that decade. I had a t-shirt and a baseball cap that I wore all the time. It replaced my Michigan hat after someone stole it.

tempo_n_groove

MayDay10 said:

bbiggs said:

MayDay10 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.

I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.

Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

Its about continuing to profit off the characterization of a race of people who seem to be making it clear that they are not comfortable with this stuff.  i dont know if they will take as much offense or not.  Im sure some people will.  Maybe "Tribe" will be considered over-the-line in 15 years?   
You know fans will come dressed in head dresses.  Maybe bring foam tomahawks, gotta be careful what is depicted on merchandise, etc...  It will still keep the door open for Chief Wahoo.   Would people just call them the "Indians" like they currently call them the "Tribe"?  

Tribe also leaves them where they are now for branding, which is kind of a purgatory/nowhere to go.  I sense the team would like a clean break from anything Native American so they can sell merch and create sharper looking uniforms

Angels and Devils, hold my beer...

mrussel1

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 

I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?

Other than traditional costume, I don't think there is a well defined cultural affiliation with clothing.  I will say, at best it looks a bit embarrassing and silly when a rocker like Dee Dee Ramone dresses like a rapper. 

Mixed race jazz bands go back a long way and few black jazz musicians today or in the past have had strong objections to white musicians playing jazz.  On the other hand, some will strongly object to white jazz musicians being given better opportunity or recognition for the music.  For example, in the early 70's I took a jazz appreciation class at San Francisco state under the tutelage of black recording jazz artist John Handy.  John told us that in many circles, big band jazz was often attributed to white bands like the Glenn Miller Orchestra or Tommy Dorsey's band, etc.  Handy did not object to these bands playing jazz music, but he did object to the fact that they were given credit for creating music that was originally created by and better written and performed  black jazz bands-  orchestras led by the likes of Duke Ellington and Count Basie.  Those white bands were also paid better and given better accommodations. Handy and most other black performers argued rightly that racism was an obvious component in how the music was received and rewarded, but there was no mention of cultural appropriation in white bands playing jazz.  And some of the greatest jazz musicians have had integrated jazz band from Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker hiring Red Rodney (and having to claim Rodney was an albino black in order to play in some clubs) to Mile Davis working with white musicians.

So of course cultural appropriation is not a factor in jazz.  But racism certainly has been.

What you just described is cultural appropriation, isn't it?  Just because it went deep into racism doesn't mean it wasn't appropriation. 

mrussel1

tbergs said:

MayDay10 said:

bbiggs said:

MayDay10 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.

I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.

Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

Its about continuing to profit off the characterization of a race of people who seem to be making it clear that they are not comfortable with this stuff.  i dont know if they will take as much offense or not.  Im sure some people will.  Maybe "Tribe" will be considered over-the-line in 15 years?   
You know fans will come dressed in head dresses.  Maybe bring foam tomahawks, gotta be careful what is depicted on merchandise, etc...  It will still keep the door open for Chief Wahoo.   Would people just call them the "Indians" like they currently call them the "Tribe"?  

Tribe also leaves them where they are now for branding, which is kind of a purgatory/nowhere to go.  I sense the team would like a clean break from anything Native American so they can sell merch and create sharper looking uniforms

I think this would be the biggest reason to move past Tribe. What the hell do you even use as the image for your brand? It's dead in the water and the only purpose seems to be a nostalgic shout out to the previous name. They need a fresh start that sounds good, looks good and sells. This is a big opportunity that most franchises don't get so they should spend a lot of time and money getting this right. If they do, they'll sell a ton of merch to their fan base and anyone who just thinks it looks good.

I loved that mid-90's Cleveland team and was rooting for them to win the WS, even as a MN fan whose team had gone in the dumper in the middle of that decade. I had a t-shirt and a baseball cap that I wore all the time. It replaced my Michigan hat after someone stole it.

These are easy things for you to say when it isn't your team.  

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

tbergs said:

MayDay10 said:

bbiggs said:

MayDay10 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.

I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.

Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

Its about continuing to profit off the characterization of a race of people who seem to be making it clear that they are not comfortable with this stuff.  i dont know if they will take as much offense or not.  Im sure some people will.  Maybe "Tribe" will be considered over-the-line in 15 years?   
You know fans will come dressed in head dresses.  Maybe bring foam tomahawks, gotta be careful what is depicted on merchandise, etc...  It will still keep the door open for Chief Wahoo.   Would people just call them the "Indians" like they currently call them the "Tribe"?  

Tribe also leaves them where they are now for branding, which is kind of a purgatory/nowhere to go.  I sense the team would like a clean break from anything Native American so they can sell merch and create sharper looking uniforms

I think this would be the biggest reason to move past Tribe. What the hell do you even use as the image for your brand? It's dead in the water and the only purpose seems to be a nostalgic shout out to the previous name. They need a fresh start that sounds good, looks good and sells. This is a big opportunity that most franchises don't get so they should spend a lot of time and money getting this right. If they do, they'll sell a ton of merch to their fan base and anyone who just thinks it looks good.

I loved that mid-90's Cleveland team and was rooting for them to win the WS, even as a MN fan whose team had gone in the dumper in the middle of that decade. I had a t-shirt and a baseball cap that I wore all the time. It replaced my Michigan hat after someone stole it.

These are easy things for you to say when it isn't your team.  

nope. if it was my team i wouldn't give two shits. it would be weird at first, for sure, but to me ending the hurt of a large group of people is of much bigger importance

mrussel1

OnWis97 said:

To whatever degree white kids' choice of dress is appropriating black culture, it's not the same as a huge business (that happens to be a sports team that an entire region rallies behind) doing so; not to mention selling merchandise, etc.

I have no ties to any native-named team, so I probably don't have a strong sense to the attachment that fans have to those teams.  But I just have a difficult time seeing Indians to Tribe as an improvement.

Truth be told, I'm not sure where I stand on names like Indians, Chiefs, and Braves. (Washington absolutely had to change). I might be OK living in a world in which those names stay even though you'll never see a new team take on such a name. But I find most of the imagery and rituals embarrassing. The Tomahawk Chop made me cringe when it first hit the scene when I was about 17 (against my team, the Twins in 1991). I am not even comfortable with the Chiefs arrowhead logo. If I were a Chiefs fan, I might wear their stuff but I'd probably avoid the arrow. So I guess I kinda think it's time for them to go away, even though "that's not necessary" is in the back of my mind.

I went to the Braves Unnecessary New Suburban Ball Park a couple of years ago.  And I noticed a lot of fairly expensive lighted signage with "Atlanta," "Braves," and "Atlanta Braves" wordmarks, just like on the jerseys. But those wordmarks never had the tomahawk.  The only expensive signage I saw with a tomahawk was the "Chop House" restaurant beyond the right field seats; the logo is two crossed tomahawks very much in team colors.  It kinda struck me that they might be preparing for the day that the tomahawk needs to go away.

Few things to wrap up my points here:

1. To be clear, I don't think they will retain the Tribe.  And it's for the very reason pointed out earlier, that they will need to do a clean break for optics and not to catch the raft of shit that would come from SJWs all the way to the people that are more well meaning.  I'm just saying I would like them to retain the Tribe for the connection to the past.  The nostalgia is spoken of here as if it's a terrible thing, as if the 90's Indians or Bob Feller were part of the Indian Removal policies of Andrew Jackson.  Or that we have a giant statue of Custer outside the Jake that we want to preserve. 
2. In your example of white kids appropriating black culture, let me be clear in the analogy.  The kids are akin to the fans like me.  The people monetizing it are the clothing companies, the Beastie Boys and RHCP.  They are the ones that became millionaires off of black culture.  So in that example, yes Team got rich and so did the music companies/clothing companies.  It's the same thing. 
3. And to your point, if the Tribe is not okay, what about the Chiefs, the Blackhawks (name, not logo), the Noles, and likely countless others.  No difference.

And to the person who wondered how you would have a logo for the Tribe, I don't think that's an unsolvable problem. 

  

MayDay10

The Indians are my team.  I would rather nothing ever changed to be honest...  but I realize that isnt reality.

Im fine with the change, based on the inevitability of it.  Getting lathered up about it does nothing

mrussel1

MayDay10 said:

The Indians are my team.  I would rather nothing ever changed to be honest...  but I realize that isnt reality.

Im fine with the change, based on the inevitability of it.  Getting lathered up about it does nothing

I don't think you see me here talking about boycotting baseball or screaming about liberals.  The discussion is on point related to the post. 

mrussel1

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

tbergs said:

MayDay10 said:

bbiggs said:

MayDay10 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.

I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.

Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

Its about continuing to profit off the characterization of a race of people who seem to be making it clear that they are not comfortable with this stuff.  i dont know if they will take as much offense or not.  Im sure some people will.  Maybe "Tribe" will be considered over-the-line in 15 years?   
You know fans will come dressed in head dresses.  Maybe bring foam tomahawks, gotta be careful what is depicted on merchandise, etc...  It will still keep the door open for Chief Wahoo.   Would people just call them the "Indians" like they currently call them the "Tribe"?  

Tribe also leaves them where they are now for branding, which is kind of a purgatory/nowhere to go.  I sense the team would like a clean break from anything Native American so they can sell merch and create sharper looking uniforms

I think this would be the biggest reason to move past Tribe. What the hell do you even use as the image for your brand? It's dead in the water and the only purpose seems to be a nostalgic shout out to the previous name. They need a fresh start that sounds good, looks good and sells. This is a big opportunity that most franchises don't get so they should spend a lot of time and money getting this right. If they do, they'll sell a ton of merch to their fan base and anyone who just thinks it looks good.

I loved that mid-90's Cleveland team and was rooting for them to win the WS, even as a MN fan whose team had gone in the dumper in the middle of that decade. I had a t-shirt and a baseball cap that I wore all the time. It replaced my Michigan hat after someone stole it.

These are easy things for you to say when it isn't your team.  

nope. if it was my team i wouldn't give two shits. it would be weird at first, for sure, but to me ending the hurt of a large group of people is of much bigger importance

I didn't give a shit about the Redskins.  But I know a lot of people here in VA that did.  They understood it but didn't like it either.  They were sad. Sorry you can't identify even in the slightest, but don't act like no one would/should give two shits. 

oftenreading

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

tbergs said:

MayDay10 said:

bbiggs said:

MayDay10 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.

I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.

Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

Its about continuing to profit off the characterization of a race of people who seem to be making it clear that they are not comfortable with this stuff.  i dont know if they will take as much offense or not.  Im sure some people will.  Maybe "Tribe" will be considered over-the-line in 15 years?   
You know fans will come dressed in head dresses.  Maybe bring foam tomahawks, gotta be careful what is depicted on merchandise, etc...  It will still keep the door open for Chief Wahoo.   Would people just call them the "Indians" like they currently call them the "Tribe"?  

Tribe also leaves them where they are now for branding, which is kind of a purgatory/nowhere to go.  I sense the team would like a clean break from anything Native American so they can sell merch and create sharper looking uniforms

I think this would be the biggest reason to move past Tribe. What the hell do you even use as the image for your brand? It's dead in the water and the only purpose seems to be a nostalgic shout out to the previous name. They need a fresh start that sounds good, looks good and sells. This is a big opportunity that most franchises don't get so they should spend a lot of time and money getting this right. If they do, they'll sell a ton of merch to their fan base and anyone who just thinks it looks good.

I loved that mid-90's Cleveland team and was rooting for them to win the WS, even as a MN fan whose team had gone in the dumper in the middle of that decade. I had a t-shirt and a baseball cap that I wore all the time. It replaced my Michigan hat after someone stole it.

These are easy things for you to say when it isn't your team.  

nope. if it was my team i wouldn't give two shits. it would be weird at first, for sure, but to me ending the hurt of a large group of people is of much bigger importance

I didn't give a shit about the Redskins.  But I know a lot of people here in VA that did.  They understood it but didn't like it either.  They were sad. Sorry you can't identify even in the slightest, but don't act like no one would/should give two shits. 

No, I think that people who are upset that their racist team  name needs to change are just doubling down on the original error and shouldn’t get any sympathy. 

mrussel1

oftenreading said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

tbergs said:

MayDay10 said:

bbiggs said:

MayDay10 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.

I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.

Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

Its about continuing to profit off the characterization of a race of people who seem to be making it clear that they are not comfortable with this stuff.  i dont know if they will take as much offense or not.  Im sure some people will.  Maybe "Tribe" will be considered over-the-line in 15 years?   
You know fans will come dressed in head dresses.  Maybe bring foam tomahawks, gotta be careful what is depicted on merchandise, etc...  It will still keep the door open for Chief Wahoo.   Would people just call them the "Indians" like they currently call them the "Tribe"?  

Tribe also leaves them where they are now for branding, which is kind of a purgatory/nowhere to go.  I sense the team would like a clean break from anything Native American so they can sell merch and create sharper looking uniforms

I think this would be the biggest reason to move past Tribe. What the hell do you even use as the image for your brand? It's dead in the water and the only purpose seems to be a nostalgic shout out to the previous name. They need a fresh start that sounds good, looks good and sells. This is a big opportunity that most franchises don't get so they should spend a lot of time and money getting this right. If they do, they'll sell a ton of merch to their fan base and anyone who just thinks it looks good.

I loved that mid-90's Cleveland team and was rooting for them to win the WS, even as a MN fan whose team had gone in the dumper in the middle of that decade. I had a t-shirt and a baseball cap that I wore all the time. It replaced my Michigan hat after someone stole it.

These are easy things for you to say when it isn't your team.  

nope. if it was my team i wouldn't give two shits. it would be weird at first, for sure, but to me ending the hurt of a large group of people is of much bigger importance

I didn't give a shit about the Redskins.  But I know a lot of people here in VA that did.  They understood it but didn't like it either.  They were sad. Sorry you can't identify even in the slightest, but don't act like no one would/should give two shits. 

No, I think that people who are upset that their racist team  name needs to change are just doubling down on the original error and shouldn’t get any sympathy. 

My aren't you judgy.

Halifax2TheMax

mrussel1 said:

OnWis97 said:

To whatever degree white kids' choice of dress is appropriating black culture, it's not the same as a huge business (that happens to be a sports team that an entire region rallies behind) doing so; not to mention selling merchandise, etc.

I have no ties to any native-named team, so I probably don't have a strong sense to the attachment that fans have to those teams.  But I just have a difficult time seeing Indians to Tribe as an improvement.

Truth be told, I'm not sure where I stand on names like Indians, Chiefs, and Braves. (Washington absolutely had to change). I might be OK living in a world in which those names stay even though you'll never see a new team take on such a name. But I find most of the imagery and rituals embarrassing. The Tomahawk Chop made me cringe when it first hit the scene when I was about 17 (against my team, the Twins in 1991). I am not even comfortable with the Chiefs arrowhead logo. If I were a Chiefs fan, I might wear their stuff but I'd probably avoid the arrow. So I guess I kinda think it's time for them to go away, even though "that's not necessary" is in the back of my mind.

I went to the Braves Unnecessary New Suburban Ball Park a couple of years ago.  And I noticed a lot of fairly expensive lighted signage with "Atlanta," "Braves," and "Atlanta Braves" wordmarks, just like on the jerseys. But those wordmarks never had the tomahawk.  The only expensive signage I saw with a tomahawk was the "Chop House" restaurant beyond the right field seats; the logo is two crossed tomahawks very much in team colors.  It kinda struck me that they might be preparing for the day that the tomahawk needs to go away.

Few things to wrap up my points here:

1. To be clear, I don't think they will retain the Tribe.  And it's for the very reason pointed out earlier, that they will need to do a clean break for optics and not to catch the raft of shit that would come from SJWs all the way to the people that are more well meaning.  I'm just saying I would like them to retain the Tribe for the connection to the past.  The nostalgia is spoken of here as if it's a terrible thing, as if the 90's Indians or Bob Feller were part of the Indian Removal policies of Andrew Jackson.  Or that we have a giant statue of Custer outside the Jake that we want to preserve. 
2. In your example of white kids appropriating black culture, let me be clear in the analogy.  The kids are akin to the fans like me.  The people monetizing it are the clothing companies, the Beastie Boys and RHCP.  They are the ones that became millionaires off of black culture.  So in that example, yes Team got rich and so did the music companies/clothing companies.  It's the same thing. 
3. And to your point, if the Tribe is not okay, what about the Chiefs, the Blackhawks (name, not logo), the Noles, and likely countless others.  No difference.

And to the person who wondered how you would have a logo for the Tribe, I don't think that's an unsolvable problem. 

  

And without those SJWs you seemingly disparage, most of us know that nothing would ever change because the majority rarely, if ever, listens to the put upon minority. It’s only when the scales tip, evident throughout history, that meaningful change occurs.

Merkin Baller

I personally don't find Tribe offensive, but I'm 1st generation Irish American, I don't think my opinion on the matter counts for much. 

I also don't see the point in keeping something so similar to Indians, if they are indeed trying to get away from that imagery. 

brianlux

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 

I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?

Other than traditional costume, I don't think there is a well defined cultural affiliation with clothing.  I will say, at best it looks a bit embarrassing and silly when a rocker like Dee Dee Ramone dresses like a rapper. 

Mixed race jazz bands go back a long way and few black jazz musicians today or in the past have had strong objections to white musicians playing jazz.  On the other hand, some will strongly object to white jazz musicians being given better opportunity or recognition for the music.  For example, in the early 70's I took a jazz appreciation class at San Francisco state under the tutelage of black recording jazz artist John Handy.  John told us that in many circles, big band jazz was often attributed to white bands like the Glenn Miller Orchestra or Tommy Dorsey's band, etc.  Handy did not object to these bands playing jazz music, but he did object to the fact that they were given credit for creating music that was originally created by and better written and performed  black jazz bands-  orchestras led by the likes of Duke Ellington and Count Basie.  Those white bands were also paid better and given better accommodations. Handy and most other black performers argued rightly that racism was an obvious component in how the music was received and rewarded, but there was no mention of cultural appropriation in white bands playing jazz.  And some of the greatest jazz musicians have had integrated jazz band from Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker hiring Red Rodney (and having to claim Rodney was an albino black in order to play in some clubs) to Mile Davis working with white musicians.

So of course cultural appropriation is not a factor in jazz.  But racism certainly has been.

What you just described is cultural appropriation, isn't it?  Just because it went deep into racism doesn't mean it wasn't appropriation. 

Well, but not really, but only because Jazz, though primarily black music, is also American music.  An though it was formed by African Americans, as truly American music, it makes sense that it would become inclusive of other cultures while being acknowledged as having originally been created by African Americans.  And again, it was mainly black jazz musicians who made the move to have integrated bands and their intentional inclusion of white musicians into the music removes it from cultural appropriation.  You won't find Native Americans encouraging whites to join in on Ghost Dancing. 

And I would say traditional music from specific places and times- like, say- Lakota Native American Ghost dance chanting-  is really the only music that could be culturally appropriated.  Jazz and blues have been more evolutionary and broadly inclusive in nature.

mrussel1

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 

I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?

Other than traditional costume, I don't think there is a well defined cultural affiliation with clothing.  I will say, at best it looks a bit embarrassing and silly when a rocker like Dee Dee Ramone dresses like a rapper. 

Mixed race jazz bands go back a long way and few black jazz musicians today or in the past have had strong objections to white musicians playing jazz.  On the other hand, some will strongly object to white jazz musicians being given better opportunity or recognition for the music.  For example, in the early 70's I took a jazz appreciation class at San Francisco state under the tutelage of black recording jazz artist John Handy.  John told us that in many circles, big band jazz was often attributed to white bands like the Glenn Miller Orchestra or Tommy Dorsey's band, etc.  Handy did not object to these bands playing jazz music, but he did object to the fact that they were given credit for creating music that was originally created by and better written and performed  black jazz bands-  orchestras led by the likes of Duke Ellington and Count Basie.  Those white bands were also paid better and given better accommodations. Handy and most other black performers argued rightly that racism was an obvious component in how the music was received and rewarded, but there was no mention of cultural appropriation in white bands playing jazz.  And some of the greatest jazz musicians have had integrated jazz band from Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker hiring Red Rodney (and having to claim Rodney was an albino black in order to play in some clubs) to Mile Davis working with white musicians.

So of course cultural appropriation is not a factor in jazz.  But racism certainly has been.

What you just described is cultural appropriation, isn't it?  Just because it went deep into racism doesn't mean it wasn't appropriation. 

Well, but not really, but only because Jazz, though primarily black music, is also American music.  An though it was formed by African Americans, as truly American music, it makes sense that it would become inclusive of other cultures while being acknowledged as having originally been created by African Americans.  And again, it was mainly black jazz musicians who made the move to have integrated bands and their intentional inclusion of white musicians into the music removes it from cultural appropriation.  You won't find Native Americans encouraging whites to join in on Ghost Dancing. 

And I would say traditional music from specific places and times- like, say- Lakota Native American Ghost dance chanting-  is really the only music that could be culturally appropriated.  Jazz and blues have been more evolutionary and broadly inclusive in nature.

I'm making the point that cultural app is totally common in our country,  from music,  to dress to language.  We used to call it a melting pot of cultures but now it seems to be a negative thing. 

oftenreading

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

tbergs said:

MayDay10 said:

bbiggs said:

MayDay10 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.

I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.

Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

Its about continuing to profit off the characterization of a race of people who seem to be making it clear that they are not comfortable with this stuff.  i dont know if they will take as much offense or not.  Im sure some people will.  Maybe "Tribe" will be considered over-the-line in 15 years?   
You know fans will come dressed in head dresses.  Maybe bring foam tomahawks, gotta be careful what is depicted on merchandise, etc...  It will still keep the door open for Chief Wahoo.   Would people just call them the "Indians" like they currently call them the "Tribe"?  

Tribe also leaves them where they are now for branding, which is kind of a purgatory/nowhere to go.  I sense the team would like a clean break from anything Native American so they can sell merch and create sharper looking uniforms

I think this would be the biggest reason to move past Tribe. What the hell do you even use as the image for your brand? It's dead in the water and the only purpose seems to be a nostalgic shout out to the previous name. They need a fresh start that sounds good, looks good and sells. This is a big opportunity that most franchises don't get so they should spend a lot of time and money getting this right. If they do, they'll sell a ton of merch to their fan base and anyone who just thinks it looks good.

I loved that mid-90's Cleveland team and was rooting for them to win the WS, even as a MN fan whose team had gone in the dumper in the middle of that decade. I had a t-shirt and a baseball cap that I wore all the time. It replaced my Michigan hat after someone stole it.

These are easy things for you to say when it isn't your team.  

nope. if it was my team i wouldn't give two shits. it would be weird at first, for sure, but to me ending the hurt of a large group of people is of much bigger importance

I didn't give a shit about the Redskins.  But I know a lot of people here in VA that did.  They understood it but didn't like it either.  They were sad. Sorry you can't identify even in the slightest, but don't act like no one would/should give two shits. 

No, I think that people who are upset that their racist team  name needs to change are just doubling down on the original error and shouldn’t get any sympathy. 

My aren't you judgy.

I do judge racists, and I don’t even feel remotely bad about that.