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#46 President Joe Biden

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    nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 7,834
    edited September 2021
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    No, you are not understanding the law.  First, the law didn't change.  You've always been required to report as income any amount that exceeds $600.  For example, if you have a credit card debt and you settle it for $2k on a $3k balance with a collector, you will get a 1099 for the amount that was forgiven ($1k).  What is happening here is that Paypal, Etsy and other retailers are now being required to send the 1099 when transactions total more than $600.  In the past, they only had to do that on greater than $10k.  So the tax law hasn't changed, it's the requirement on PP.  

    And last, most importantly, it's not about how much money you have in your account.  If you send or receive money friends and family, it will not trigger a transaction.  It's only transactions that are "goods and services".  

    Y'all need to take a drink or a hit. 
    Careful, you might get labeled the smartest guy in the room 24/7.
    Funny. There’s a huge difference in the way mrussel 
    and you post. Don’t compare it and throw around what I said to you and only you…… in another thread. 
    Post edited by nicknyr15 on
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,678
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    JB16057 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    This is absolutely ridiculous and a waste of resources. The amount now is $20,000 which seems a little high but $600 seems way too low. When I first heard this, I thought it was some crackpot conspiracy theory but it is real. This coming from Biden who is being looked at for avoiding to pay his fair share of taxes. Come on man!

    Really? Why do you think that online retailers should have a tax advantage over brick and mortar?  You still get to write down the expense line like any other business. 

    And how is this a waste of resources?  Whose resources?  PP has to issue the 1099, not the IRS.
    I understand how it works. I work a day job and have a small business(a band) and I do my own taxes and have for the past 17 years. My concern is that the IRS will at some point look even harder at that $600 number. Here is a better story that helps explain the concern on wasted resources: https://news.yahoo.com/irs-track-bank-transactions-over-140000522.html

    "The Biden administration has made clear its plan to beef up IRS auditing by expanding the agency’s funding and power. Biden’s latest proposal would require banks to turn over to the Internal Revenue Service bank account information for all accounts holding more than $600"

    This is the same IRS that the Obama White House used to go after conservatives. https://www.npr.org/2017/10/27/560308997/irs-apologizes-for-aggressive-scrutiny-of-conservative-groups

    Do people need to pay their taxes? Yes. Do people cheat on their taxes? Yes. Should it be fixed? Yes. Do we need the government looking at every transaction over $600? No, I don't believe so.
    $600 is the law.  The IRS doesn't get to determine the threshold for what is required to be reported as income.  Congress makes that law.  And again, the law hasn't changed.  

    Last year I got a 1099 from Paypal for transactions that were less than $10k.  Because PP decided to generate the 1099, I had to pay taxes on the amount (less the expenses).  And that's because it was greater than $600.  PP went above and beyond the reporting requirement at the time, sending me a 1099.  At that point, I was screwed.  The IRS was aware that I made more than $600 in revenue.

    But alas, I think we may be conflating two issues here, since the number $600 is in two articles for two totally separate issues.  I have no problems with the income reporting requirement being put on Ebay, Etsy, PP and the like.  This is how businesses hide and cheat on their tax bills. 

    Regarding the Yahoo article, I need to better understanding the targets of the bank transaction data.  I'm not concerned about 'waste of resources' because just like the IRS today, there are very complex algorithms that make one likely or unlikely to be audited.  I'm more concerned about privacy.  There's not enough information in that article for me to formulate an opinion on the merits. 
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,678
    As a side note, I find it interesting that the article focuses on all of the business groups up in arms about the proposal, but nothing from the ACLU or other privacy advocates.  Do we really have all of the information about who is in scope for this new rule?
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    DewieCoxDewieCox Posts: 11,413
    I’ve read that it won’t focus so much on individual transactions but more of a way to monitor circulation though this stuff is largely over my head.
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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,913
    mrussel1 said:
    As a side note, I find it interesting that the article focuses on all of the business groups up in arms about the proposal, but nothing from the ACLU or other privacy advocates.  Do we really have all of the information about who is in scope for this new rule?

    I read its geared toward the self employed. reducibg the cheating there
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    nicknyr15 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    No, you are not understanding the law.  First, the law didn't change.  You've always been required to report as income any amount that exceeds $600.  For example, if you have a credit card debt and you settle it for $2k on a $3k balance with a collector, you will get a 1099 for the amount that was forgiven ($1k).  What is happening here is that Paypal, Etsy and other retailers are now being required to send the 1099 when transactions total more than $600.  In the past, they only had to do that on greater than $10k.  So the tax law hasn't changed, it's the requirement on PP.  

    And last, most importantly, it's not about how much money you have in your account.  If you send or receive money friends and family, it will not trigger a transaction.  It's only transactions that are "goods and services".  

    Y'all need to take a drink or a hit. 
    Careful, you might get labeled the smartest guy in the room 24/7.
    Funny. There’s a huge difference in the way mrussel 
    and you post. Don’t compare it and throw around what I said to you and only you…… in another thread. 
    Oh, that was directed at me? Thanks for the compliment champ.
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    JB16057JB16057 Posts: 1,269
    mrussel1 said:
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    JB16057 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    This is absolutely ridiculous and a waste of resources. The amount now is $20,000 which seems a little high but $600 seems way too low. When I first heard this, I thought it was some crackpot conspiracy theory but it is real. This coming from Biden who is being looked at for avoiding to pay his fair share of taxes. Come on man!

    Really? Why do you think that online retailers should have a tax advantage over brick and mortar?  You still get to write down the expense line like any other business. 

    And how is this a waste of resources?  Whose resources?  PP has to issue the 1099, not the IRS.
    I understand how it works. I work a day job and have a small business(a band) and I do my own taxes and have for the past 17 years. My concern is that the IRS will at some point look even harder at that $600 number. Here is a better story that helps explain the concern on wasted resources: https://news.yahoo.com/irs-track-bank-transactions-over-140000522.html

    "The Biden administration has made clear its plan to beef up IRS auditing by expanding the agency’s funding and power. Biden’s latest proposal would require banks to turn over to the Internal Revenue Service bank account information for all accounts holding more than $600"

    This is the same IRS that the Obama White House used to go after conservatives. https://www.npr.org/2017/10/27/560308997/irs-apologizes-for-aggressive-scrutiny-of-conservative-groups

    Do people need to pay their taxes? Yes. Do people cheat on their taxes? Yes. Should it be fixed? Yes. Do we need the government looking at every transaction over $600? No, I don't believe so.
    There's not enough information in that article for me to formulate an opinion on the merits. 
    Fair enough. This isn't even a done deal yet so I'll leave it at that.

  • Options
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    JB16057 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    This is absolutely ridiculous and a waste of resources. The amount now is $20,000 which seems a little high but $600 seems way too low. When I first heard this, I thought it was some crackpot conspiracy theory but it is real. This coming from Biden who is being looked at for avoiding to pay his fair share of taxes. Come on man!

    Really? Why do you think that online retailers should have a tax advantage over brick and mortar?  You still get to write down the expense line like any other business. 

    And how is this a waste of resources?  Whose resources?  PP has to issue the 1099, not the IRS.
    I understand how it works. I work a day job and have a small business(a band) and I do my own taxes and have for the past 17 years. My concern is that the IRS will at some point look even harder at that $600 number. Here is a better story that helps explain the concern on wasted resources: https://news.yahoo.com/irs-track-bank-transactions-over-140000522.html

    "The Biden administration has made clear its plan to beef up IRS auditing by expanding the agency’s funding and power. Biden’s latest proposal would require banks to turn over to the Internal Revenue Service bank account information for all accounts holding more than $600"

    This is the same IRS that the Obama White House used to go after conservatives. https://www.npr.org/2017/10/27/560308997/irs-apologizes-for-aggressive-scrutiny-of-conservative-groups

    Do people need to pay their taxes? Yes. Do people cheat on their taxes? Yes. Should it be fixed? Yes. Do we need the government looking at every transaction over $600? No, I don't believe so.
    It’s a mis-characterization to claim it’s the “same” Obama IRS or that it was Obama who targeted “conservative groups.” The IRS scrutinizing of political groups by the IRS began in 2004 and targeted both “conservative” and liberal groups, as opposed to individuals. The POOTWH Administration gutted the IRS. To claim same-same between Shrub era to Obama to POOTWH to Biden is BS.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    Bad Biden, bad! “Should only be an issue if you’re actively evading taxes.” Bad Biden, bad!

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-09-28/banks-are-wrong-to-fight-proposed-new-irs-disclosure-rule

    Big data can do big things. But bad Biden, bad!
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,020
    mrussel1 said:
    JB16057 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    This is absolutely ridiculous and a waste of resources. The amount now is $20,000 which seems a little high but $600 seems way too low. When I first heard this, I thought it was some crackpot conspiracy theory but it is real. This coming from Biden who is being looked at for avoiding to pay his fair share of taxes. Come on man!

    Really? Why do you think that online retailers should have a tax advantage over brick and mortar?  You still get to write down the expense line like any other business. 

    And how is this a waste of resources?  Whose resources?  PP has to issue the 1099, not the IRS.
    I don’t think anyone would argue that online retailers should have an advantage. But I agree $600 seems low. If you’re a retailer pulling $600 a year, you’re probably already out of business by the time you file.
    Are you saying someone selling a poster here for $600 should pay taxes and claim that as their online business? That’s falls under casual sale in my opinion, like a yard sale.

  • Options
    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,678
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    JB16057 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    This is absolutely ridiculous and a waste of resources. The amount now is $20,000 which seems a little high but $600 seems way too low. When I first heard this, I thought it was some crackpot conspiracy theory but it is real. This coming from Biden who is being looked at for avoiding to pay his fair share of taxes. Come on man!

    Really? Why do you think that online retailers should have a tax advantage over brick and mortar?  You still get to write down the expense line like any other business. 

    And how is this a waste of resources?  Whose resources?  PP has to issue the 1099, not the IRS.
    I don’t think anyone would argue that online retailers should have an advantage. But I agree $600 seems low. If you’re a retailer pulling $600 a year, you’re probably already out of business by the time you file.
    Are you saying someone selling a poster here for $600 should pay taxes and claim that as their online business? That’s falls under casual sale in my opinion, like a yard sale.

    Right, but $600 is the law for income.  Why should the reporting requirements be different for online retailers vs every other sale, gambling win, etc.?  
    And while I won't disagree that it's 'casual', your yard sale isn't digital.  How would the gov't determine that a sale is 'casual'?  
  • Options
    gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 22,181
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    No, you are not understanding the law.  First, the law didn't change.  You've always been required to report as income any amount that exceeds $600.  For example, if you have a credit card debt and you settle it for $2k on a $3k balance with a collector, you will get a 1099 for the amount that was forgiven ($1k).  What is happening here is that Paypal, Etsy and other retailers are now being required to send the 1099 when transactions total more than $600.  In the past, they only had to do that on greater than $10k.  So the tax law hasn't changed, it's the requirement on PP.  

    And last, most importantly, it's not about how much money you have in your account.  If you send or receive money friends and family, it will not trigger a transaction.  It's only transactions that are "goods and services".  

    Y'all need to take a drink or a hit. 
    yep, my band would always have to pay taxes if we earned more than 600 per member or 3000 total per year, which was every year. this is not new news. there was a year that we took off most of the year and only made 2500 and we did not get a 1099 that year because we did not make enough. some years we made an extra 12k each and having to pay tax on that sucked ass.
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,671
    edited September 2021
    Remind me again of what value Manchin and Sinema bring to the party?

    Sinema, from WaPo:

    However the battle over President Biden’s agenda turns out, this ugly saga will accomplish something crucial: It will separate Democrats who take their role as public servants seriously from those who are operating with such epic levels of bad faith that they are essentially insulting the intelligence of their own constituents.

    Rep. Katie Porter (D-Calif.) just delivered a sharp dressing down to Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) that neatly crystallizes this contrast. Many progressives are hammering Sinema, of course, but Porter’s broadside captures something essential about what we’re seeing from the senator, and by extension, about the crossroads that Democrats now face.

    That essential point is this: Public servants should feel a basic obligation to level with the voters who granted them the privilege of being their representatives. While more may be happening in private talks than we know, all signs are that Sinema’s caginess is edging toward a level of deceptiveness that borders on betrayal of public duty.

    Speaking on MSNBC, Porter lambasted Sinema for refusing to specify what she’ll accept in the multitrillion-dollar bill Democrats hope to pass through reconciliation. House progressives are threatening to vote down the smaller bipartisan infrastructure bill that already passed the Senate, to pressure centrists to negotiate the reconciliation bill in good faith.

    Porter told host Lawrence O’Donnell that progressives would make good on that threat in the infrastructure vote set for Thursday, and added:

    Until Senator Sinema and Senator Manchin are able to come up with what they want, to do for their constituents, to do for the American people — until Senator Sinema stops being cute, and starts doing her job and leading for the people of Arizona — we’re simply not going to be able to move the president’s agenda forward.

    O’Donnell pointed out that if centrists get the infrastructure bill passed, they’ll be liberated from having to support a robust reconciliation bill later.

    “I think that’s really irresponsible to their constituents and to the people of this country,” Porter replied. The reconciliation bill, Porter noted, will provide more home care to the elderly and child-care assistance that helps more women enter the workforce, and will expand health care to enable more workers to stay healthy and productive.

    “I was elected to create a strong and stable and globally competitive economy,” Porter continued, adding that if Sinema and Manchin “really believe” the infrastructure bill alone will accomplish this, “they owe it to the American people to say that.”

    Stressing that it’s impossible to negotiate until centrists say what they want, Porter added:

    I was not elected to read the mind of Kyrsten Sinema. Thank goodness, because I have no idea what she’s thinking.

    Opinion | Katie Porter’s sharp criticism of Kyrsten Sinema over reconciliation reveals an important truth - The Washington Post

    On Manchin, from Letter From an American:

    This bill was hammered out earlier in September by a group of senators trying to find common ground with conservative Democrat Joe Manchin of West Virginia, who objected to the sweeping For the People Act passed by the House. The Freedom to Vote Act pared down that larger bill but retained its most important pieces. It creates a national standard for voting rules and tries to stop voter suppression, modernizes voter registration, and replaces old, paperless voting machines with new ones that have a voter-verified paper trail. It slows the flood of money into our elections and ends partisan gerrymandering. It establishes strict rules for post-election audits.

    This defense of voting is popular. A Data for Progress poll found that 70% of likely voters support the act. That number includes 85% of self-identified Democrats, 67% of Independents, and 54% of Republicans.

    Manchin maintains that he can find 10 Republican senators to join the Democrats to get 60 votes, enabling the measure to overcome a Republican filibuster. But there is, so far, no sign that those votes are materializing, and every day that goes by brings us closer to having gerrymandered district lines hardened into place before the 2022 election. Indeed, the stonewalling by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) of Democratic attempts to lift the debt ceiling is wasting time that otherwise would be given to the voting rights bill.

    Never mind that neither Senator can articulate what changes they'd like to see, only that its too big or too expensive. They both appear to be playing cute. Manchin can't deliver so why isn't President Biden leaning on him, and by extension Sinema? Be an awful shame if the  Pentagon closed that base in Prescott or if the FBI offices relocated out of WV. What's the downside? Force their hand. Or get ready to lose the House, Senate and WH. Own it.

    More on these two debutantes:

    Sens. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema have said President Biden’s $3.5 trillion social spending proposal is too expensive, but they have been reluctant to specify how they want it changed.
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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  • Options
    JB16057JB16057 Posts: 1,269
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    No, you are not understanding the law.  First, the law didn't change.  You've always been required to report as income any amount that exceeds $600.  For example, if you have a credit card debt and you settle it for $2k on a $3k balance with a collector, you will get a 1099 for the amount that was forgiven ($1k).  What is happening here is that Paypal, Etsy and other retailers are now being required to send the 1099 when transactions total more than $600.  In the past, they only had to do that on greater than $10k.  So the tax law hasn't changed, it's the requirement on PP.  

    And last, most importantly, it's not about how much money you have in your account.  If you send or receive money friends and family, it will not trigger a transaction.  It's only transactions that are "goods and services".  

    Y'all need to take a drink or a hit. 
    yep, my band would always have to pay taxes if we earned more than 600 per member or 3000 total per year, which was every year. this is not new news. there was a year that we took off most of the year and only made 2500 and we did not get a 1099 that year because we did not make enough. some years we made an extra 12k each and having to pay tax on that sucked ass.
    Did you ever cheat on your taxes? Did you disclose the cash gigs or only the gigs that you were given a check?

    I'll be honest and say that yes, I have cheated on my taxes by not telling the IRS about the cash gigs my band has received. The only gigs we paid taxes on were when we received a check and that were traceable. If it was cash, we took it and walked away. If the IRS wants to come after me, then go ahead because this is the only area that I have cheated on my taxes. My concern is that if banks have to disclose to the IRS any amount over $600, my band money and other dollar amount over $600 could get confused by the IRS and could trigger an audit. It just seems like a really low amount of money for the IRS to worry about. There are plenty of other much bigger fish that cheat on their taxes every single day.

  • Options
    gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 22,181
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    No, you are not understanding the law.  First, the law didn't change.  You've always been required to report as income any amount that exceeds $600.  For example, if you have a credit card debt and you settle it for $2k on a $3k balance with a collector, you will get a 1099 for the amount that was forgiven ($1k).  What is happening here is that Paypal, Etsy and other retailers are now being required to send the 1099 when transactions total more than $600.  In the past, they only had to do that on greater than $10k.  So the tax law hasn't changed, it's the requirement on PP.  

    And last, most importantly, it's not about how much money you have in your account.  If you send or receive money friends and family, it will not trigger a transaction.  It's only transactions that are "goods and services".  

    Y'all need to take a drink or a hit. 
    yep, my band would always have to pay taxes if we earned more than 600 per member or 3000 total per year, which was every year. this is not new news. there was a year that we took off most of the year and only made 2500 and we did not get a 1099 that year because we did not make enough. some years we made an extra 12k each and having to pay tax on that sucked ass.
    Did you ever cheat on your taxes? Did you disclose the cash gigs or only the gigs that you were given a check?

    I'll be honest and say that yes, I have cheated on my taxes by not telling the IRS about the cash gigs my band has received. The only gigs we paid taxes on were when we received a check and that were traceable. If it was cash, we took it and walked away. If the IRS wants to come after me, then go ahead because this is the only area that I have cheated on my taxes. My concern is that if banks have to disclose to the IRS any amount over $600, my band money and other dollar amount over $600 could get confused by the IRS and could trigger an audit. It just seems like a really low amount of money for the IRS to worry about. There are plenty of other much bigger fish that cheat on their taxes every single day.

    we claimed everything. cash gigs included, for the last 18 years.

    i got audited about 15 years ago and that was a monumental pain in the ass. we had a huge increase in band income from year to year due to a few corporate gigs and it triggered the irs to look into us. it also did not help that my tax preparer put a decimal point in the wrong spot to make it look like we earned another 20 grand than we earned, so irs said we owed tax on that, which due to the error we did not end up owing.

    we had a lot of shows on handshake cash agreements and the band was under my social security number and it was my job to 1099 the other four members. fortunately we did everything on the up and up and it all worked out. since that audit one of the other guys put the band under his ss# so we have not had any issues since. 

     all of us have very good jobs and we do not need a tax issue coming back to haunt us and get us fired from our jobs.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Options
    JB16057JB16057 Posts: 1,269
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    No, you are not understanding the law.  First, the law didn't change.  You've always been required to report as income any amount that exceeds $600.  For example, if you have a credit card debt and you settle it for $2k on a $3k balance with a collector, you will get a 1099 for the amount that was forgiven ($1k).  What is happening here is that Paypal, Etsy and other retailers are now being required to send the 1099 when transactions total more than $600.  In the past, they only had to do that on greater than $10k.  So the tax law hasn't changed, it's the requirement on PP.  

    And last, most importantly, it's not about how much money you have in your account.  If you send or receive money friends and family, it will not trigger a transaction.  It's only transactions that are "goods and services".  

    Y'all need to take a drink or a hit. 
    yep, my band would always have to pay taxes if we earned more than 600 per member or 3000 total per year, which was every year. this is not new news. there was a year that we took off most of the year and only made 2500 and we did not get a 1099 that year because we did not make enough. some years we made an extra 12k each and having to pay tax on that sucked ass.
    Did you ever cheat on your taxes? Did you disclose the cash gigs or only the gigs that you were given a check?

    I'll be honest and say that yes, I have cheated on my taxes by not telling the IRS about the cash gigs my band has received. The only gigs we paid taxes on were when we received a check and that were traceable. If it was cash, we took it and walked away. If the IRS wants to come after me, then go ahead because this is the only area that I have cheated on my taxes. My concern is that if banks have to disclose to the IRS any amount over $600, my band money and other dollar amount over $600 could get confused by the IRS and could trigger an audit. It just seems like a really low amount of money for the IRS to worry about. There are plenty of other much bigger fish that cheat on their taxes every single day.

    we claimed everything. cash gigs included, for the last 18 years.

    i got audited about 15 years ago and that was a monumental pain in the ass. we had a huge increase in band income from year to year due to a few corporate gigs and it triggered the irs to look into us. it also did not help that my tax preparer put a decimal point in the wrong spot to make it look like we earned another 20 grand than we earned, so irs said we owed tax on that, which due to the error we did not end up owing.

    we had a lot of shows on handshake cash agreements and the band was under my social security number and it was my job to 1099 the other four members. fortunately we did everything on the up and up and it all worked out. since that audit one of the other guys put the band under his ss# so we have not had any issues since. 

     all of us have very good jobs and we do not need a tax issue coming back to haunt us and get us fired from our jobs.
    Good on you. I've done the books for my band for the last 17 years and I've been lucky enough to never be audited. I'm still crossing my fingers it never happens!
  • Options
    gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 22,181
    JB16057 said:
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Has this been discussed?  Seriously, who is on board with this?:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-going-to-get-harder-to-avoid-telling-the-irs-about-income-from-online-sales.html
    So essentially, if someone has $600 in their account, they want it reported to the IRS?  Government overreach much?
    No, you are not understanding the law.  First, the law didn't change.  You've always been required to report as income any amount that exceeds $600.  For example, if you have a credit card debt and you settle it for $2k on a $3k balance with a collector, you will get a 1099 for the amount that was forgiven ($1k).  What is happening here is that Paypal, Etsy and other retailers are now being required to send the 1099 when transactions total more than $600.  In the past, they only had to do that on greater than $10k.  So the tax law hasn't changed, it's the requirement on PP.  

    And last, most importantly, it's not about how much money you have in your account.  If you send or receive money friends and family, it will not trigger a transaction.  It's only transactions that are "goods and services".  

    Y'all need to take a drink or a hit. 
    yep, my band would always have to pay taxes if we earned more than 600 per member or 3000 total per year, which was every year. this is not new news. there was a year that we took off most of the year and only made 2500 and we did not get a 1099 that year because we did not make enough. some years we made an extra 12k each and having to pay tax on that sucked ass.
    Did you ever cheat on your taxes? Did you disclose the cash gigs or only the gigs that you were given a check?

    I'll be honest and say that yes, I have cheated on my taxes by not telling the IRS about the cash gigs my band has received. The only gigs we paid taxes on were when we received a check and that were traceable. If it was cash, we took it and walked away. If the IRS wants to come after me, then go ahead because this is the only area that I have cheated on my taxes. My concern is that if banks have to disclose to the IRS any amount over $600, my band money and other dollar amount over $600 could get confused by the IRS and could trigger an audit. It just seems like a really low amount of money for the IRS to worry about. There are plenty of other much bigger fish that cheat on their taxes every single day.

    we claimed everything. cash gigs included, for the last 18 years.

    i got audited about 15 years ago and that was a monumental pain in the ass. we had a huge increase in band income from year to year due to a few corporate gigs and it triggered the irs to look into us. it also did not help that my tax preparer put a decimal point in the wrong spot to make it look like we earned another 20 grand than we earned, so irs said we owed tax on that, which due to the error we did not end up owing.

    we had a lot of shows on handshake cash agreements and the band was under my social security number and it was my job to 1099 the other four members. fortunately we did everything on the up and up and it all worked out. since that audit one of the other guys put the band under his ss# so we have not had any issues since. 

     all of us have very good jobs and we do not need a tax issue coming back to haunt us and get us fired from our jobs.
    Good on you. I've done the books for my band for the last 17 years and I've been lucky enough to never be audited. I'm still crossing my fingers it never happens!
    it shouldn't unless you get a huge increase in income. also if you do not put a decimal point in the wrong place... haha

    also don't try to take ridiculous writeoffs against your band income. make sure you can defend it if you do. there were years where we all bought a bunch of stuff like a new PA, had a professional promotional video made, and some other things where we ended up taking a loss.

    yeah i got lucky that i kept all the receipts and had done a pretty good job of keeping the records straight. just do that and you should be cool.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Options
    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,671
    edited September 2021
    Inflows and outflows, in aggregate, not by transaction. Needs to be passed by Congress, so as Biden's proposal, it just can't be implemented.

    The proposed initiatives are aimed at making the tax system more equitable and efficient, said Natasha Sarin, the treasury's deputy assistant secretary for economic policy.

    “Overall, the Administration’s compliance initiatives are guided by a singular objective – bringing about an end to a two-tiered tax system, where ordinary Americans comply with their tax obligations, but many high-end taxpayers do not,” Sarin said in a statement. 

    The prospective reporting requirements are being considered as a revenue offset for Congress' $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill, as the Treasury estimates the system will generate $460 billion over a decade. The proposal last appeared in negotiations for the $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure package that passed the Senate in August and is awaiting a vote in the House, the American Banker reported Sept. 8. 

    Additionally, the Biden administration cannot “declare” any change to the current law as the InfoWars headline asserts, as that is a legislative power that belongs to Congress

    If approved, the proposal would go into effect after Dec. 31, 2022.

    Our rating: Partly false

    We rate the claim that the Treasury Department 'declares' the IRS will monitor transactions in all U.S. bank accounts over $600 as PARTLY FALSE, based on our research. The Biden Administration has proposed monitoring accounts over $600, but the only figures reported to the government would be the total inflows and outflows for the year – not the size and nature of each transaction. And the Treasury can't simply "declare" this measure, it must be approved by Congress.

    Fact check: Claim about the IRS monitoring bank accounts over $600 exaggerates reality (msn.com)

    Page 88 of the below link:

    General Explanations of the Administration's Fiscal Year 2022 Revenue Proposals (treasury.gov)


    Table of Contents. Each section has current law, proposed change and reason for. Interesting in its scope and detail.


    TABLE OF CONTENTS REVENUE PROPOSALS.......................................................................................1 AMERICAN JOBS PLAN ....................................................................................................... 2 Reform Corporate Taxation................................................................................................. 3 Raise the Corporate Income Tax Rate to 28 Percent ......................................................... 3 Revise the Global Minimum Tax Regime, Disallow Deductions Attributable to Exempt Income, and Limit Inversions.................................................................................. 4 Reform Taxation of Foreign Fossil Fuel Income................................................................ 9 Repeal the Deduction for Foreign-Derived Intangible Income (FDII) ............................ 11 Replace the Base Erosion Anti-Abuse Tax (BEAT) with the Stopping Harmful Inversions and Ending Low-Tax Developments (SHIELD) Rule ........................................... 12 Limit Foreign Tax Credits from Sales of Hybrid Entities................................................. 16 Restrict Deductions of Excessive Interest of Members of Financial Reporting Groups for Disproportionate Borrowing in the United States................................................ 18 Impose a 15 Percent Minimum Tax on Book Earnings of Large Corporations............... 21 Provide Tax Incentives for Locating Jobs and Business Activity in the United States and Remove Tax Deductions for Shipping Jobs Overseas........................................... 22 Support Housing and Infrastructure................................................................................. 24 Expand the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit................................................................... 24 Provide Neighborhood Homes Investment Tax Credit ..................................................... 26 Make Permanent the New Markets Tax Credit (NMTC) .................................................. 29 Provide Federally Subsidized State and Local Bonds for Infrastructure ......................... 30 Prioritize Clean Energy....................................................................................................... 33 Eliminate Fossil Fuel Tax Preferences............................................................................. 33 Extend and Enhance Renewable and Alternative Energy Incentives ............................... 38 Provide Tax Credit for Electricity Transmission Investments.......................................... 41 Provide Allocated Credit for Electricity Generation from Existing Nuclear Power Facilities ............................................................................................................... 42 Establish New Tax Credits for Qualifying Advanced Energy Manufacturing.................. 44 Establish Tax Credits for Heavy- and Medium-Duty Zero Emissions Vehicles............... 46 Provide Tax Incentives for Sustainable Aviation Fuel ..................................................... 48 Provide a Production Tax Credit for Low-Carbon Hydrogen.......................................... 49 Extend and Enhance Energy Efficiency and Electrification Incentives............................ 50 Provide Disaster Mitigation Tax Credit ........................................................................... 53 Expand and Enhance the Carbon Oxide Sequestration Credit ........................................ 54 Extend and Enhance the Electric Vehicle Charging Station Credit................................. 56 Reinstate Superfund Excise Taxes and Modify Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund Financing 57 AMERICAN FAMILIES PLAN............................................................................................ 59 Strengthen Taxation of High-Income Taxpayers............................................................. 60 Increase the Top Marginal Income Tax Rate for High Earners....................................... 60 Reform the Taxation of Capital Income............................................................................ 61 Rationalize Net Investment Income and Self-Employment Contributions Act Taxes ....... 65 Support Workers, Families, and Economic Security ....................................................... 68 ii General Explanations of the Administration’s Fiscal Year 2022 Revenue Proposals Make Permanent the American Rescue Plan Expansion of Premium Tax Credits .......... 68 Make Permanent the Expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) for Workers Without Qualifying Children ................................................................................ 70 Make Permanent American Rescue Plan Changes to the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit .................................................................................................................... 73 Extend the Child Tax Credit Increase Through 2025 and Make Permanent Full Refundability ......................................................................................................... 77 Increase the Employer-Provided Childcare Tax Credit for Businesses........................... 81 Close Loopholes................................................................................................................... 82 Tax Carried (Profits) Interests as Ordinary Income ........................................................ 82 Repeal Deferral of Gain From Like-Kind Exchanges ...................................................... 84 Make Permanent Excess Business Loss Limitation of Noncorporate Taxpayers............. 85 Improve Compliance ........................................................................................................... 86 Implement a Program Integrity Allocation Adjustment and Provide Additional Funding for Tax Administration.......................................................................................... 86 Introduce Comprehensive Financial Account Reporting to Improve Tax Compliance.... 88 Improve Tax Administration.............................................................................................. 90 Increase Oversight of Paid Tax Return Preparers........................................................... 90 Enhance Accuracy of Tax Information ............................................................................. 92 Expand Broker Information Reporting with Respect to Crypto Assets............................. 94 Address Taxpayer Noncompliance with Listed Transactions........................................... 96 Modify Tax Administration Rules ..................................................................................... 99 Authorize Limited Sharing of Business Tax Return Information to Measure The Economy More Accurately.................................................................................................. 101 TABLE OF REVENUE ESTIMATES………………………………………………..103

    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    Anyone concerned about Manchin repeatedly lying about what number was acceptable to him for the past three months regarding the infrastructure bill? Or, is he just another politician?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,156
    Remind me again of what value Manchin and Sinema bring to the party?

    Sinema, from WaPo:

    However the battle over President Biden’s agenda turns out, this ugly saga will accomplish something crucial: It will separate Democrats who take their role as public servants seriously from those who are operating with such epic levels of bad faith that they are essentially insulting the intelligence of their own constituents.

    Rep. Katie Porter (D-Calif.) just delivered a sharp dressing down to Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) that neatly crystallizes this contrast. Many progressives are hammering Sinema, of course, but Porter’s broadside captures something essential about what we’re seeing from the senator, and by extension, about the crossroads that Democrats now face.

    That essential point is this: Public servants should feel a basic obligation to level with the voters who granted them the privilege of being their representatives. While more may be happening in private talks than we know, all signs are that Sinema’s caginess is edging toward a level of deceptiveness that borders on betrayal of public duty.

    Speaking on MSNBC, Porter lambasted Sinema for refusing to specify what she’ll accept in the multitrillion-dollar bill Democrats hope to pass through reconciliation. House progressives are threatening to vote down the smaller bipartisan infrastructure bill that already passed the Senate, to pressure centrists to negotiate the reconciliation bill in good faith.

    Porter told host Lawrence O’Donnell that progressives would make good on that threat in the infrastructure vote set for Thursday, and added:

    Until Senator Sinema and Senator Manchin are able to come up with what they want, to do for their constituents, to do for the American people — until Senator Sinema stops being cute, and starts doing her job and leading for the people of Arizona — we’re simply not going to be able to move the president’s agenda forward.

    O’Donnell pointed out that if centrists get the infrastructure bill passed, they’ll be liberated from having to support a robust reconciliation bill later.

    “I think that’s really irresponsible to their constituents and to the people of this country,” Porter replied. The reconciliation bill, Porter noted, will provide more home care to the elderly and child-care assistance that helps more women enter the workforce, and will expand health care to enable more workers to stay healthy and productive.

    “I was elected to create a strong and stable and globally competitive economy,” Porter continued, adding that if Sinema and Manchin “really believe” the infrastructure bill alone will accomplish this, “they owe it to the American people to say that.”

    Stressing that it’s impossible to negotiate until centrists say what they want, Porter added:

    I was not elected to read the mind of Kyrsten Sinema. Thank goodness, because I have no idea what she’s thinking.

    Opinion | Katie Porter’s sharp criticism of Kyrsten Sinema over reconciliation reveals an important truth - The Washington Post

    On Manchin, from Letter From an American:

    This bill was hammered out earlier in September by a group of senators trying to find common ground with conservative Democrat Joe Manchin of West Virginia, who objected to the sweeping For the People Act passed by the House. The Freedom to Vote Act pared down that larger bill but retained its most important pieces. It creates a national standard for voting rules and tries to stop voter suppression, modernizes voter registration, and replaces old, paperless voting machines with new ones that have a voter-verified paper trail. It slows the flood of money into our elections and ends partisan gerrymandering. It establishes strict rules for post-election audits.

    This defense of voting is popular. A Data for Progress poll found that 70% of likely voters support the act. That number includes 85% of self-identified Democrats, 67% of Independents, and 54% of Republicans.

    Manchin maintains that he can find 10 Republican senators to join the Democrats to get 60 votes, enabling the measure to overcome a Republican filibuster. But there is, so far, no sign that those votes are materializing, and every day that goes by brings us closer to having gerrymandered district lines hardened into place before the 2022 election. Indeed, the stonewalling by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) of Democratic attempts to lift the debt ceiling is wasting time that otherwise would be given to the voting rights bill.

    Never mind that neither Senator can articulate what changes they'd like to see, only that its too big or too expensive. They both appear to be playing cute. Manchin can't deliver so why isn't President Biden leaning on him, and by extension Sinema? Be an awful shame if the  Pentagon closed that base in Prescott or if the FBI offices relocated out of WV. What's the downside? Force their hand. Or get ready to lose the House, Senate and WH. Own it.

    More on these two debutantes:

    Sens. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema have said President Biden’s $3.5 trillion social spending proposal is too expensive, but they have been reluctant to specify how they want it changed.


    I’ll take the bait. 

    Do 100% of Democratic Party voters want large tax increases for $3.5T in new spending? Or, did the election result in a 50/50 senate,  3 vote House margin, a POTUS who won by 0.000001% in three swing states and a progressive who was destroyed by the moderate once it was a 1:1 in the democratic primaries?

    We have allowed AOC and Sanders to wrestle control of the party and are heading for a disaster at the midterms. The only thing keeping us in the game is Manchin fighting virtually alone to get the price tag under $2 trillion. When they call us socialists during the next election, it will be impossible to fight off that argument. Government takeover of child care? Free associates degrees for everyone? Good grief we are getting blasted next year.
  • Options
    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,671
    edited October 2021
    Remind me again of what value Manchin and Sinema bring to the party?

    Sinema, from WaPo:

    However the battle over President Biden’s agenda turns out, this ugly saga will accomplish something crucial: It will separate Democrats who take their role as public servants seriously from those who are operating with such epic levels of bad faith that they are essentially insulting the intelligence of their own constituents.

    Rep. Katie Porter (D-Calif.) just delivered a sharp dressing down to Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) that neatly crystallizes this contrast. Many progressives are hammering Sinema, of course, but Porter’s broadside captures something essential about what we’re seeing from the senator, and by extension, about the crossroads that Democrats now face.

    That essential point is this: Public servants should feel a basic obligation to level with the voters who granted them the privilege of being their representatives. While more may be happening in private talks than we know, all signs are that Sinema’s caginess is edging toward a level of deceptiveness that borders on betrayal of public duty.

    Speaking on MSNBC, Porter lambasted Sinema for refusing to specify what she’ll accept in the multitrillion-dollar bill Democrats hope to pass through reconciliation. House progressives are threatening to vote down the smaller bipartisan infrastructure bill that already passed the Senate, to pressure centrists to negotiate the reconciliation bill in good faith.

    Porter told host Lawrence O’Donnell that progressives would make good on that threat in the infrastructure vote set for Thursday, and added:

    Until Senator Sinema and Senator Manchin are able to come up with what they want, to do for their constituents, to do for the American people — until Senator Sinema stops being cute, and starts doing her job and leading for the people of Arizona — we’re simply not going to be able to move the president’s agenda forward.

    O’Donnell pointed out that if centrists get the infrastructure bill passed, they’ll be liberated from having to support a robust reconciliation bill later.

    “I think that’s really irresponsible to their constituents and to the people of this country,” Porter replied. The reconciliation bill, Porter noted, will provide more home care to the elderly and child-care assistance that helps more women enter the workforce, and will expand health care to enable more workers to stay healthy and productive.

    “I was elected to create a strong and stable and globally competitive economy,” Porter continued, adding that if Sinema and Manchin “really believe” the infrastructure bill alone will accomplish this, “they owe it to the American people to say that.”

    Stressing that it’s impossible to negotiate until centrists say what they want, Porter added:

    I was not elected to read the mind of Kyrsten Sinema. Thank goodness, because I have no idea what she’s thinking.

    Opinion | Katie Porter’s sharp criticism of Kyrsten Sinema over reconciliation reveals an important truth - The Washington Post

    On Manchin, from Letter From an American:

    This bill was hammered out earlier in September by a group of senators trying to find common ground with conservative Democrat Joe Manchin of West Virginia, who objected to the sweeping For the People Act passed by the House. The Freedom to Vote Act pared down that larger bill but retained its most important pieces. It creates a national standard for voting rules and tries to stop voter suppression, modernizes voter registration, and replaces old, paperless voting machines with new ones that have a voter-verified paper trail. It slows the flood of money into our elections and ends partisan gerrymandering. It establishes strict rules for post-election audits.

    This defense of voting is popular. A Data for Progress poll found that 70% of likely voters support the act. That number includes 85% of self-identified Democrats, 67% of Independents, and 54% of Republicans.

    Manchin maintains that he can find 10 Republican senators to join the Democrats to get 60 votes, enabling the measure to overcome a Republican filibuster. But there is, so far, no sign that those votes are materializing, and every day that goes by brings us closer to having gerrymandered district lines hardened into place before the 2022 election. Indeed, the stonewalling by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) of Democratic attempts to lift the debt ceiling is wasting time that otherwise would be given to the voting rights bill.

    Never mind that neither Senator can articulate what changes they'd like to see, only that its too big or too expensive. They both appear to be playing cute. Manchin can't deliver so why isn't President Biden leaning on him, and by extension Sinema? Be an awful shame if the  Pentagon closed that base in Prescott or if the FBI offices relocated out of WV. What's the downside? Force their hand. Or get ready to lose the House, Senate and WH. Own it.

    More on these two debutantes:

    Sens. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema have said President Biden’s $3.5 trillion social spending proposal is too expensive, but they have been reluctant to specify how they want it changed.


    I’ll take the bait. 

    Do 100% of Democratic Party voters want large tax increases for $3.5T in new spending? Or, did the election result in a 50/50 senate,  3 vote House margin, a POTUS who won by 0.000001% in three swing states and a progressive who was destroyed by the moderate once it was a 1:1 in the democratic primaries?

    We have allowed AOC and Sanders to wrestle control of the party and are heading for a disaster at the midterms. The only thing keeping us in the game is Manchin fighting virtually alone to get the price tag under $2 trillion. When they call us socialists during the next election, it will be impossible to fight off that argument. Government takeover of child care? Free associates degrees for everyone? Good grief we are getting blasted next year.
    What were Manchin’s votes on the debt ceiling when the POOTWH Administration added $8T to the debt and gave tax cuts to the wealthiest among us, paid for by GDP growth at 4% a quarter, quarter over quarter, year over year, for ten years, knowing that that was nowhere near possible? Not to mention the lying sack of shit knew what his “magic number” was back in July. Fucker should follow his heart and join the repub party. And that $3.5T is over 10 years. 

    The dem senators represent 40 million more voters than the repub senators and Biden won by 7 million. The Dems have a political mandate and should spend their political capital. When the money flows and jobs are created those skeptical will come out for Dems. The polling shows majority support for all the spending. Instead Dems wring their hands and look weak. Now that’s a political strategy.

    And why the “bait” comment?
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 22,181
    Anyone concerned about Manchin repeatedly lying about what number was acceptable to him for the past three months regarding the infrastructure bill? Or, is he just another politician?
    he is moving the goalposts. he has no interest in actually passing anything.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,913
    Anyone concerned about Manchin repeatedly lying about what number was acceptable to him for the past three months regarding the infrastructure bill? Or, is he just another politician?
    he is moving the goalposts. he has no interest in actually passing anything.

    McConnell's playbook.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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    Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,156
    Anyone concerned about Manchin repeatedly lying about what number was acceptable to him for the past three months regarding the infrastructure bill? Or, is he just another politician?
    he is moving the goalposts. he has no interest in actually passing anything.

    Manchin is the only senator saving us from ourselves. And he actually said no to $3.5T. So we should be moving on to something else
  • Options
    Anyone concerned about Manchin repeatedly lying about what number was acceptable to him for the past three months regarding the infrastructure bill? Or, is he just another politician?
    he is moving the goalposts. he has no interest in actually passing anything.

    Manchin is the only senator saving us from ourselves. And he actually said no to $3.5T. So we should be moving on to something else
    He’s not “saving us from ourselves.” He’s guaranteeing that repubs will run and get elected on a platform of, “Dems can’t get anything done, have ruined ‘Murica, didn’t keep their promises and only repubs can fix it by cutting taxes.” Thanks Joe, for being honest about what you “knew in your heart.”

    Bernie supporters seem awfully quiet too. Guess they were really repub POOTWH supporters?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,913
    Anyone concerned about Manchin repeatedly lying about what number was acceptable to him for the past three months regarding the infrastructure bill? Or, is he just another politician?
    he is moving the goalposts. he has no interest in actually passing anything.

    Manchin is the only senator saving us from ourselves. And he actually said no to $3.5T. So we should be moving on to something else

    over 10 years the DOD budget is 7.15 trillion or 715 billion for fy 2022. Actually not exactly true as this request is a year by year request and will increase year over year.

    So asking for 350 billion a year per year for 10 yrs isnt a big ask.....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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    static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    Anyone concerned about Manchin repeatedly lying about what number was acceptable to him for the past three months regarding the infrastructure bill? Or, is he just another politician?
    he is moving the goalposts. he has no interest in actually passing anything.

    Manchin is the only senator saving us from ourselves. And he actually said no to $3.5T. So we should be moving on to something else
    He’s not “saving us from ourselves.” He’s guaranteeing that repubs will run and get elected on a platform of, “Dems can’t get anything done, have ruined ‘Murica, didn’t keep their promises and only repubs can fix it by cutting taxes.” Thanks Joe, for being honest about what you “knew in your heart.”

    Bernie supporters seem awfully quiet too. Guess they were really repub POOTWH supporters?
    Nope I just gave up on the Democratic Party and am not surprised that they would rather capitulate to manchin and his business backers than do what a majority of Americans asked to be delivered.  In essence at least this Bernie backer has pretty much checked out.  I’m glad Joe got us out of Afghanistan and think he did a great job given the circumstances, but the party moving to the whims of manchin and sinema has really solidified what I thought.  Neither party really cares about America. Now all the Dems can scapegoat and blame manchin while nothing gets done and they hand over the machinations to republicans.  Sure every 2 to four years I will probably vote blue for the chance some improvements get made, but I’m not holding my breath that anything will actually get done.
    Scio me nihil scire

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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,913
    static111 said:
    Anyone concerned about Manchin repeatedly lying about what number was acceptable to him for the past three months regarding the infrastructure bill? Or, is he just another politician?
    he is moving the goalposts. he has no interest in actually passing anything.

    Manchin is the only senator saving us from ourselves. And he actually said no to $3.5T. So we should be moving on to something else
    He’s not “saving us from ourselves.” He’s guaranteeing that repubs will run and get elected on a platform of, “Dems can’t get anything done, have ruined ‘Murica, didn’t keep their promises and only repubs can fix it by cutting taxes.” Thanks Joe, for being honest about what you “knew in your heart.”

    Bernie supporters seem awfully quiet too. Guess they were really repub POOTWH supporters?
    Nope I just gave up on the Democratic Party and am not surprised that they would rather capitulate to manchin and his business backers than do what a majority of Americans asked to be delivered.  In essence at least this Bernie backer has pretty much checked out.  I’m glad Joe got us out of Afghanistan and think he did a great job given the circumstances, but the party moving to the whims of manchin and sinema has really solidified what I thought.  Neither party really cares about America. Now all the Dems can scapegoat and blame manchin while nothing gets done and they hand over the machinations to republicans.  Sure every 2 to four years I will probably vote blue for the chance some improvements get made, but I’m not holding my breath that anything will actually get done.

    given the 50-50 split, just how exactly do you suggest they deal with Manchin and Sinema on this or any other issue they balk at??
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    Anyone concerned about Manchin repeatedly lying about what number was acceptable to him for the past three months regarding the infrastructure bill? Or, is he just another politician?
    he is moving the goalposts. he has no interest in actually passing anything.

    Manchin is the only senator saving us from ourselves. And he actually said no to $3.5T. So we should be moving on to something else
    He’s not “saving us from ourselves.” He’s guaranteeing that repubs will run and get elected on a platform of, “Dems can’t get anything done, have ruined ‘Murica, didn’t keep their promises and only repubs can fix it by cutting taxes.” Thanks Joe, for being honest about what you “knew in your heart.”

    Bernie supporters seem awfully quiet too. Guess they were really repub POOTWH supporters?
    Nope I just gave up on the Democratic Party and am not surprised that they would rather capitulate to manchin and his business backers than do what a majority of Americans asked to be delivered.  In essence at least this Bernie backer has pretty much checked out.  I’m glad Joe got us out of Afghanistan and think he did a great job given the circumstances, but the party moving to the whims of manchin and sinema has really solidified what I thought.  Neither party really cares about America. Now all the Dems can scapegoat and blame manchin while nothing gets done and they hand over the machinations to republicans.  Sure every 2 to four years I will probably vote blue for the chance some improvements get made, but I’m not holding my breath that anything will actually get done.

    given the 50-50 split, just how exactly do you suggest they deal with Manchin and Sinema on this or any other issue they balk at??
    I’d start by telling lying Joe that we’re going to level funding to his state from the feds, ie WV currently receives $2.15 from the feds for every tax dollar their residents pay in. Maybe we’ll give you $1.05 for every dollar your residents pay in. Maybe. Then tell him that we’ll consider relocating every federal agency or office currently located in WV. Residents can keep their jobs if they want to relocate.

    For Sinema, the same. 41% of AZ State budget relies on federal aid, 5th highest % of 50 states, to the tune of $40B. Also, we’re considering relocating federal agencies and military bases currently located in AZ.

    If neither of those garner their attention or support, stripping of committee assignments is on the table. You want to act like repubs, join them, be honest about who you are, and allow the blame where it squarely rests to fall on the repubs.

    Dems are doing the difficult work of legislating and the repubs don’t do shit other than to say no and point fingers of blame. At least if they joined the repubs, Dems can blame repubs for nothing getting done except tax cuts.

    There are pressing issues facing ‘Murica and the repubs have no solutions nor want any responsibility for addressing them.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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