Requested a Refund
Comments
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Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20 -
What was the point of posting the German theatre pic in this thread about your specific adventures on getting a refund?pearljammr78 said:
So they will not be having any concerts in California anytime soon. That goes for Ohana. So call it a day and start over when safe to do so. Don’t hold money for something that’s not happening this calendar year. Does this fit in a Pearl Jam forum now. Just curious.PJNB said:
This is a Pearl Jam forum. Pearl Jam will not be having shows with mandatory face masks, scuba suits, and social distancing like in this pic. When they have shows again it will be safe to do so.pearljammr78 said:
Looks like a great time for the 20 people in attendance. Think of the crowd energy that can be made like this. Unreal. This is Germany very recently. So for the few who get seats. Enjoy! 0 -
I don’t get the railing about the tickets. You can get a refund if you need the money or you can get a refund if you’re morally opposed to waiting until next year. Most people want to keep their tickets and wait it out. Everyone wins. No one has to do anything they don’t want to do.1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20
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Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?0 -
Keeping my tickets, will wait as long as it takes for the shows to come around!!! Moving forward setting money aside for this will be hard. So having already gone through the stress of wining or obtaining tickets in the rat race and funding them is something that I can look forward to with so much negativity and hard times we are all going through.
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Because the point of wanting a refund is I don’t wanna be in the situation that the people attending that show in Germany were in. This is about shows that have not been canceled(Ohana, Sea Hear Now etc.) but due to the measures now put in place at concerts going forward in the foreseeable future. California will not have any gatherings unless a miracle cure happens today and distribution and manufacturing happen in the blink of an eye. Great fan bands like Pearl Jam have made refunds available for those who want it. That’s what should be happening to every event that is for calendar year 2020. The way we attend and everything has changed. I no longer wish to attend based on these things. For my Ohana and Green Day and Balck Crowes tickets, I want a refund due to not wanting to be Covid compliant during a concert. If tickets were purchased post lock down then I would have known. Since they were purchased pre lockdown, and the requirements for attendance has changed, I as a consumer should have protection to change my mind.PJNB said:
What was the point of posting the German theatre pic in this thread about your specific adventures on getting a refund?pearljammr78 said:
So they will not be having any concerts in California anytime soon. That goes for Ohana. So call it a day and start over when safe to do so. Don’t hold money for something that’s not happening this calendar year. Does this fit in a Pearl Jam forum now. Just curious.PJNB said:
This is a Pearl Jam forum. Pearl Jam will not be having shows with mandatory face masks, scuba suits, and social distancing like in this pic. When they have shows again it will be safe to do so.pearljammr78 said:Looks like a great time for the 20 people in attendance. Think of the crowd energy that can be made like this. Unreal. This is Germany very recently. So for the few who get seats. Enjoy! As for the response of the money being Ticketmaster’s and the tickets being yours. You paid to attend an event, not for a barcode on your phone. That barcode is what allows you into the event you paid for. No event or drastically changed event. No terms of sale. Refund should be offeredPeace,Love and Pearl Jam.0 -
SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?It’s not a loan. You can keep saying it’s “like” a loan all you want.but that doesn’t actually make it a loan. It’s a purchase.Why do they need to compensate me for the delay? They didn’t create the virus. You’re really reaching now.1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20 -
When your car is on E do you buy a whole tank of gas or do you buy it a gallon at a time? Because you know... you’re really making an interest free loan to the oil company when you buy a full tank and paying them for gas you’re not actually using.Post edited by on2legs on1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20
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Also... why does the 10 Club make you pay at the beginning of the year for your membership? I haven’t used any of the membership benefits yet. This is another interest free loan apparently.1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20
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You're really being obtuse now. I didn't say it's literally a loan with signed papers and promissory notes. Or that they had a legal obligation to compensate you for the delay--it's up to you to allow it or not.on2legs said:SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?It’s not a loan. You can keep saying it’s “like” a loan all you want.but that doesn’t actually make it a loan. It’s a purchase.Why do they need to compensate me for the delay? They didn’t create the virus. You’re really reaching now.
Once you drive your car out of the gas station, you're using the gas you just bought. You have access to 10c member benefits as soon as you sign up. But if you pay shell today for a fill-up in May 2021 without any discount compared to May 2021 prices, then it would be comparable. If you prepay for 10 years of 10c memberships without any discount compared to going year-by-year, same principle.
Good try though.Post edited by SHZA on0 -
SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?What interest? Coronavirus caused interest rates to plummet. What does a savings account at a bank pay for interest right now? 0.15%? $250 x .0015 = 37.5 cents per year per pair of tickets. It's peanuts. The hassle of having to go procure tickets when the shows get dates outweigh the 37.5 cents I might earn otherwise (per year).I would also make a counter argument. Ticket prices have been going up at rates that exceed inflation. Interest rates have gone the other way 'round. Buying a ticket in 2020 at 2020 prices, for a show that might not happen until 2021 or 2022 might be a bargain
In that line of thought TM/Promoters might face the same issue. Contracts were signed in 2020 dollars, but inflation will increase the costs of running those shows in 2021 or 2022. Ergo even though they might earn a little interest from leaving all that money in a bank account, it may not offset the increased costs from running those shows further into the future.Post edited by Zod on0 -
I’m not using the whole tank of gas at once. By your logic I’m loaning them money interest free for the gas I’m not immediately using. By your logic it would be better to hang onto my money and make it work for me as I drive from station to station and fill up one gallon at time so the oil company never has my money for something I’m not immediately using (the other 19 gallons in my 20 gallon tank).SHZA said:
You're really being obtuse now. I didn't say it's literally a loan with signed papers and promissory notes. Or that they had a legal obligation to compensate you for the delay--it's up to you to allow it or not.on2legs said:SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?It’s not a loan. You can keep saying it’s “like” a loan all you want.but that doesn’t actually make it a loan. It’s a purchase.Why do they need to compensate me for the delay? They didn’t create the virus. You’re really reaching now.
Once you drive your car out of the gas station, you're using the gas you just bought. You have access to 10c member benefits as soon as you sign up. But if you pay shell today for a fill-up in May 2021 without any discount compared to May 2021 prices, then it would be comparable. If you prepay for 10 years of 10c memberships without any discount compared to going year-by-year, same principle.1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20 -
You’re also glossing over the fact that people who got tickets to NY, Baltimore, Nashville, and Saint Louis likely have no interest in trying the lottery odds again.You’re also glossing over the fact that even the shows that were easy pulls in 2020 might be way more competitive because people have gone another year without seeing Pearl Jam and the demand may be higher in 2021.1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20
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No, my logic is what I just said. Paying for a tank now that you won't get until next year. Your example is like going to a concert for 2 songs, then leaving and coming back a week later for a couple more songs, etc. Makes no sense.on2legs said:
I’m not using the whole tank of gas at once. By your logic I’m loaning them money interest free for the gas I’m not immediately using. By your logic it would be better to hang onto my money and make it work for me as I drive from station to station and fill up one gallon at time so the oil company never has my money for something I’m not immediately using (the other 19 gallons in my 20 gallon tank).SHZA said:
You're really being obtuse now. I didn't say it's literally a loan with signed papers and promissory notes. Or that they had a legal obligation to compensate you for the delay--it's up to you to allow it or not.on2legs said:SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?It’s not a loan. You can keep saying it’s “like” a loan all you want.but that doesn’t actually make it a loan. It’s a purchase.Why do they need to compensate me for the delay? They didn’t create the virus. You’re really reaching now.
Once you drive your car out of the gas station, you're using the gas you just bought. You have access to 10c member benefits as soon as you sign up. But if you pay shell today for a fill-up in May 2021 without any discount compared to May 2021 prices, then it would be comparable. If you prepay for 10 years of 10c memberships without any discount compared to going year-by-year, same principle.0 -
Again, interest is just a shorthand for the opportunity cost of not having the money in hand, not necessarily short-term interest rates.Zod said:SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?What interest? Coronavirus caused interest rates to plummet. What does a savings account at a bank pay for interest right now? 0.15%? $250 x .0015 = 37.5 cents per year per pair of tickets. It's peanuts. The hassle of having to go procure tickets when the shows get dates outweigh the 37.5 cents I might earn otherwise (per year).I would also make a counter argument. Ticket prices have been going up at rates that exceed inflation. Interest rates have gone the other way 'round. Buying a ticket in 2020 at 2020 prices, for a show that might not happen until 2021 or 2022 might be a bargain In that line of thought TM/Promoters might face the same issue. Contracts were signed in 2020 dollars, but inflation will increase the costs of running those shows in 2021 or 2022. Ergo even though they might earn a little interest from leaving all that money in a bank account, it may not offset the increased costs from running those shows further into the future.0 -
SHZA said:
No, my logic is what I just said. Paying for a tank now that you won't get until next year. Your example is like going to a concert for 2 songs, then leaving and coming back a week later for a couple more songs, etc. Makes no sense.on2legs said:
I’m not using the whole tank of gas at once. By your logic I’m loaning them money interest free for the gas I’m not immediately using. By your logic it would be better to hang onto my money and make it work for me as I drive from station to station and fill up one gallon at time so the oil company never has my money for something I’m not immediately using (the other 19 gallons in my 20 gallon tank).SHZA said:
You're really being obtuse now. I didn't say it's literally a loan with signed papers and promissory notes. Or that they had a legal obligation to compensate you for the delay--it's up to you to allow it or not.on2legs said:SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?It’s not a loan. You can keep saying it’s “like” a loan all you want.but that doesn’t actually make it a loan. It’s a purchase.Why do they need to compensate me for the delay? They didn’t create the virus. You’re really reaching now.
Once you drive your car out of the gas station, you're using the gas you just bought. You have access to 10c member benefits as soon as you sign up. But if you pay shell today for a fill-up in May 2021 without any discount compared to May 2021 prices, then it would be comparable. If you prepay for 10 years of 10c memberships without any discount compared to going year-by-year, same principle.
1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20 -
What’s the cost of missing out on tickets if they rerun the lottery? Or the cost of taking off from work to enter the public on sale?SHZA said:
Again, interest is just a shorthand for the opportunity cost of not having the money in hand, not necessarily short-term interest rates.Zod said:SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?What interest? Coronavirus caused interest rates to plummet. What does a savings account at a bank pay for interest right now? 0.15%? $250 x .0015 = 37.5 cents per year per pair of tickets. It's peanuts. The hassle of having to go procure tickets when the shows get dates outweigh the 37.5 cents I might earn otherwise (per year).I would also make a counter argument. Ticket prices have been going up at rates that exceed inflation. Interest rates have gone the other way 'round. Buying a ticket in 2020 at 2020 prices, for a show that might not happen until 2021 or 2022 might be a bargain In that line of thought TM/Promoters might face the same issue. Contracts were signed in 2020 dollars, but inflation will increase the costs of running those shows in 2021 or 2022. Ergo even though they might earn a little interest from leaving all that money in a bank account, it may not offset the increased costs from running those shows further into the future.1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20 -
Since you seem to have plenty of time to argue on the internet, missing work to get tickets on the internet shouldn't be a problem for you.on2legs said:
What’s the cost of missing out on tickets if they rerun the lottery? Or the cost of taking off from work to enter the public on sale?SHZA said:
Again, interest is just a shorthand for the opportunity cost of not having the money in hand, not necessarily short-term interest rates.Zod said:SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?What interest? Coronavirus caused interest rates to plummet. What does a savings account at a bank pay for interest right now? 0.15%? $250 x .0015 = 37.5 cents per year per pair of tickets. It's peanuts. The hassle of having to go procure tickets when the shows get dates outweigh the 37.5 cents I might earn otherwise (per year).I would also make a counter argument. Ticket prices have been going up at rates that exceed inflation. Interest rates have gone the other way 'round. Buying a ticket in 2020 at 2020 prices, for a show that might not happen until 2021 or 2022 might be a bargain In that line of thought TM/Promoters might face the same issue. Contracts were signed in 2020 dollars, but inflation will increase the costs of running those shows in 2021 or 2022. Ergo even though they might earn a little interest from leaving all that money in a bank account, it may not offset the increased costs from running those shows further into the future.
I think it'll be relatively easy to get tickets for the rescheduled shows. It wasn't that hard for round 1, and some people are going to stay away due to coronavirus concerns. But as I've said a few times (maybe you're just ignoring), if you have prime seats already (or Baltimore/MSG), I can understand not wanting to take the chance of downgrading.Post edited by SHZA on0 -
What shows do you have tickets for?SHZA said:
Since you seem to have plenty of time to argue on the internet, missing work to get tickets on the internet shouldn't be a problem for you.on2legs said:
What’s the cost of missing out on tickets if they rerun the lottery? Or the cost of taking off from work to enter the public on sale?SHZA said:
Again, interest is just a shorthand for the opportunity cost of not having the money in hand, not necessarily short-term interest rates.Zod said:SHZA said:
Well, you're not getting it back at any date with or without interest. But you could have gotten it back now and earned interest yourself. Instead you opted to let them keep your money without compensation for the delay. That's the equivalent of an interest-free loan. If you don't see it, you don't see it.on2legs said:
Its not the equivalent of an interest free loan. I was given something in exchange for the money. I didn’t give them the money for the purpose of getting it back at a later date with interest.SHZA said:
Because that's the option you chose. Yes, we've been over that ad nauseam. It is, however, the equivalent of an interest-free loan compared to the option you didn't choose.on2legs said:
They’re not holding my money. It’s their money now. I own the tickets. They’re mine. The money is theirs... it’s not being loaned to them.SHZA said:
It's a basic economic concept, the time value of money. You bought tickets for a show in March-April 2020, that will now take place (at least) a year or so later. You can get your money back now and buy tickets later, in which case you are in possession of the cash during the interim and can use it as you wish. If you let ticketmaster hold the money instead, they get the equivalent of an interest free loan for the same time period without compensating you for holding your money for the additional year. But it's worth it to you because you don't want to risk being shut out when the returned tickets go up for sale. I get it. I said all along that if you have great seats that you'd be unlikely to get on round 2, it makes sense to hold them. If they're average seats for anywhere but Baltimore or MSG, I don't think it will be that hard to get better seats closer to the show, so why subsidize ticketmaster.on2legs said:
So where is the money that will yield this spectacular return that you claim they’re earning but yet is super risk avoidant that people can get there money back? Id really like to know so I can invest myself.SHZA said:
You brought up the hedge fund, apparently because you don't understand the concept of outsourcing. If you have a billion dollars to invest you don't need to become an investment genius yourself, you hire a professional. If Ticketmaster had really clean offices, would you say, those employees shouldn't be at ticketmaster, they should be working for a cleaning company?on2legs said:
So now you’re saying Ticketmaster has all this money in a hedge fund?SHZA said:
No. A hedge fund's clients don't have to be smart enough to run the fund themselves to invest their way to profits. That's why the manager gets the big bucks.on2legs said:
The 150% credit buys them time. It’s actually keeping them from being in a bigger hole today. And you can’t call giving everyone back their money a huge if. That’s a realistic issue if things don’t bounce back.SHZA said:
Billboard has covered this extensively. Live Nation/TM cut operating expenses dramatically for 2020 and are sitting on a pile of cash for postponed events. If they had to refund everyone they might run into problems, but that's a huge if. In reality they were projecting something like 25%. Hence they are putting the rest of the funds to work. They wouldn't be offering the 150% deal just to stay afloat, because that would only be digging a bigger hole for the future.on2legs said:
They’re definitely not sitting on a billion in cash. If they had to refund every dollar tomorrow they would be out of business. That’s why they have offered the 150% credit.SHZA said:
You're right, they're sitting on a billion in cash and just stuff it under the mattress.on2legs said:
So they’re calling their broker and selling stock every time someone wants a refund? Ok....SHZA said:
In a diversified portfolio that can be liquidated as needed. If by "may need tomorrow" you mean "in case someone asks for a refund," they're taking about 30 days to fulfill refund requests.on2legs said:
Where are they investing the money they may need tomorrow and making millions?SHZA said:
Of course they would rather have new shows, but that's not an option in this environment. Investing ticket-holders' money and making millions on it is the next best thing. You're assuming they would hold all this cash in a savings account paying pennies, which isn't the case.on2legs said:
I’m cool with it. But I don’t look at it as being ripped off. I looked at it as my reservation is being held at a nominal cost.SHZA said:
You're one person. Interest on $250 x hundreds of thousands is a lot of money. You're OK with getting ripped off a little bit but it's a massive windfall when you look at it on a large scale.Zod said:SHZA said:
One doesn't have to be desperate for cash to prefer not giving ticketmaster an interest free loan for a year. With so many people getting refunds, there will be plenty of opportunities to get new tickets after it's rescheduled. If your seats are so good that you'd be unlikely to score something similar I can see why you'd hold onto it.Zod said:I understand if people are having financial difficulties, and that concert money needs to be reallocated to keeping a roof over ones house. That makes complete sense and is the right thing to do. Necessities come before concerts. If you don't need the money I don't really get it. It's all unknowns right now. We don't know the new dates, we don't know what the circumstances will be, etc.... I'm not giving up my tickets until I know more. I would either not be able to make the new date, or be uncomfortable with the health conditions. Until either of those become an issue I see no reason to seek out refunds.I feel like people think the worlds ending and we're never getting concerts again. It'll take a while, but you can't isolate civilization forever. Eventually we're either all going to get it, or they're going to figure out a vaccine/treatment.I am finding this to be a very divisive topic. Lots of people just want refunds even if they don't need the cash (feels like panic selling when the market is down). Then there's a bunch of people who will just wait it out until the shows happen or they get cancelled.I honestly don't think concerts will go forward if having them is going to cause a widespread outbreak. I don't think it's financially feasible to run socially distanced shows in big venues. The reduction in number of fans would make it unfeasible. I don't think they'd do shows if the virus was rampant because people won't want to go. People like the OP would think twice.. I would think twice...I think these are being delayed until the coast is clear, or if that takes longer than we hope.. maybe we start seeing cancellations.For me.. I need more info. I'm ok for cash right now, I cant wait it out longer. I don't want to give up tickets until I know more.Technically, I think it's the promoter or the venue that sit on the cash (which in many cases is probably TM's parent company). The thing is, how much interest am I really going to earn on $250 usd over the span of a year or two.I agree with your comments though. The crappier the tickets the easier it would be to let them go, and try to acquire better ones when things pick up again.Also... how much are interest rates right now? All things considered I think Ticketmaster would rather have new shows being booked every week than holding people’s money for pennies per ticket in interest. Heck they already sit on your money for 3-6 months under regular circumstances. I can’t see getting too worked up about another 6 months.
Maybe they invested in a diversified Pearl Jam portfolio of viewmasters and skateboards. They just throw one up on eBay whenever they need to issue a refund.
The reason they can offer 150% in future credits, and strongly encourage you to take that option, is that holding onto your cash is very lucrative.The idea that they are sinking all this ticket money into a volatile market that could crash again tomorrow if infections spike again is laughable. Ticketmaster has huge operating expenses and most of that ticket money went out the door on expenses about 5 minutes after they swiped your credit card.I’m still interested to hear what makes up the “diversified portfolio” they’ve invested all this cash in. You’re posting that Ticketmaster is cleaning up on investing this money so it must be something pretty spectacular. And if TM really is investing their way out of this mess instead of holding the cash then the guy in charge of that maneuver shouldn’t be at Ticketmaster. He should be running a hedge fund.
Regardless of whether the ticket funds are sustaining operations or generating profits, the point remains that consumers who choose not to get a refund are giving the Live Nation conglomerate an interest free loan. Some people are ok with that or rationalize it as a "reservation fee." Others would rather get their money back even if they could afford to wait because subsidizing ticketmaster doesn't sit right.I just don’t get the argument you’re making about this interest free loan. I’m not loaning Ticketmaster money. I bought tickets. I own the tickets. I gave them money in exchange. They are free to do with it as they please. Anyone who doesn’t want their tickets can get their money back. Where in all of this is an interest free loan?What interest? Coronavirus caused interest rates to plummet. What does a savings account at a bank pay for interest right now? 0.15%? $250 x .0015 = 37.5 cents per year per pair of tickets. It's peanuts. The hassle of having to go procure tickets when the shows get dates outweigh the 37.5 cents I might earn otherwise (per year).I would also make a counter argument. Ticket prices have been going up at rates that exceed inflation. Interest rates have gone the other way 'round. Buying a ticket in 2020 at 2020 prices, for a show that might not happen until 2021 or 2022 might be a bargain In that line of thought TM/Promoters might face the same issue. Contracts were signed in 2020 dollars, but inflation will increase the costs of running those shows in 2021 or 2022. Ergo even though they might earn a little interest from leaving all that money in a bank account, it may not offset the increased costs from running those shows further into the future.
I think it'll be relatively easy to get tickets for the rescheduled shows. It wasn't that hard for round 1, and some people are going to stay away due to coronavirus concerns. But as I've said a few times (maybe you're just ignoring), if you have prime seats already (or Baltimore/MSG), I can understand not wanting to take the chance of downgrading.1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 (#25) | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park 2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2025: Raleigh 20 -
Baltimore, some of which I'm trading for MSG, Nashville, STL, PHX, LA, OAK. Mostly obtained on F2F.0
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