'Are you a spoiler?': why critics fear Amash's Libertarian bid may ensure a Trump win
Amash could prove attractive to small-government Republicans who already lean libertarian. But the former Illinois congressman Joe Walsh, who challenged Trump in this year’s Republican primary, argues that this is not the time.
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“I
think it’s a huge mistake, it’s the wrong thing to do,” he said. “It
will help get Trump elected. Amash and I are friends, we’re colleagues,
but he’s clearly putting what’s best for Justin Amash ahead of what’s
best for the country. If he does it, it’s a selfish thing for him to do.
It is very disappointing.
What is disturbing?
I'm sorry, you were kidding, right?
What happened to the Brian who pleads for everyone to engage respectfully? I honestly don't understand what jumps out at you from what you quoted. Joe Walsh fretting about him running?
Surely you know how I think well enough to know I would find this disturbing:
"“It
will help get Trump elected."
But nevertheless, I do apologize for being a smart ass. It's just that the thought of a second Trump term turns my stomach. If he is elected, I might have to seriously look at moving out of the country. And what a HUGE hassle that would be. But why would I want to stay here?
Anyway, I'm sorry. I will try to be more respectful in my replies.
Not a big deal at all. I legitimately wasn't sure what you were singling out. To me, Walsh's comment has been a pretty common one and I don't think it's necessarily true.
To that point, would you feel differently if polling showed he's pulling more support from Trump or that's it basically a wash?
'Are you a spoiler?': why critics fear Amash's Libertarian bid may ensure a Trump win
Amash could prove attractive to small-government Republicans who already lean libertarian. But the former Illinois congressman Joe Walsh, who challenged Trump in this year’s Republican primary, argues that this is not the time.
Advertisement
“I
think it’s a huge mistake, it’s the wrong thing to do,” he said. “It
will help get Trump elected. Amash and I are friends, we’re colleagues,
but he’s clearly putting what’s best for Justin Amash ahead of what’s
best for the country. If he does it, it’s a selfish thing for him to do.
It is very disappointing.
What is disturbing?
I'm sorry, you were kidding, right?
What happened to the Brian who pleads for everyone to engage respectfully? I honestly don't understand what jumps out at you from what you quoted. Joe Walsh fretting about him running?
Surely you know how I think well enough to know I would find this disturbing:
"“It
will help get Trump elected."
But nevertheless, I do apologize for being a smart ass. It's just that the thought of a second Trump term turns my stomach. If he is elected, I might have to seriously look at moving out of the country. And what a HUGE hassle that would be. But why would I want to stay here?
Anyway, I'm sorry. I will try to be more respectful in my replies.
Not a big deal at all. I legitimately wasn't sure what you were singling out. To me, Walsh's comment has been a pretty common one and I don't think it's necessarily true.
To that point, would you feel differently if polling showed he's pulling more support from Trump or that's it basically a wash?
If Amash were to pull more votes from Trump I would be more happy than not, of course. If it were a wash, that would be OK too. But because there is a chance Trump could pull more votes from Bidden, much as I'm not big on good ol' Joe, I would be very worried. For that reason alone, I wish Amash would hold off for 4 more years. I really can't stand the thought of another 4 years of Trump. Trump has undone many years of environmental protection- years of hard work we have put in to help protect the environment. And even then, it is work that is not nearly complete. Trump has done so much damage that way, I may never see that damage reversed in my lifetime. But if we get him out of there, maybe there is a chance for a better world beyond my time here.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
As someone who typically votes Libertarian, I can tell you we always hear that it's not the right election. Never is. Won't be in 2024 either. But I hear everything you're saying. You seem firmly Biden and I obviously get that. For me, Amash is the best candidate by a mile, I'm excited to vote for him, and would happily make the pitch to anyone else considering jumping on board early.
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
As someone who typically votes Libertarian, I can tell you we always hear that it's not the right election. Never is. Won't be in 2024 either. But I hear everything you're saying. You seem firmly Biden and I obviously get that. For me, Amash is the best candidate by a mile, I'm excited to vote for him, and would happily make the pitch to anyone else considering jumping on board early.
Let's be clear on what Amash is saying here. He's saying he believes that man is affecting climate, and that he supports alternative energy, but he's AGAINST government getting involved in driving/subsidizing/regulating any particular energy source. This is a true Libertarian position, but NOT an environmentally friendly one. If the cost of fossil fuels were to stay below that of clean energy, he's saying there's no reason for gov't to get in the middle of that, regardless of how badly it damages the environment for future generation. That's BAU and what we have today.
Post edited by mrussel1 on
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,078
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
As someone who typically votes Libertarian, I can tell you we always hear that it's not the right election. Never is. Won't be in 2024 either. But I hear everything you're saying. You seem firmly Biden and I obviously get that. For me, Amash is the best candidate by a mile, I'm excited to vote for him, and would happily make the pitch to anyone else considering jumping on board early.
I get what you're saying. Knowing full well Hillary would get California's Electoral College votes, I voted for Jill Stein last year.
This year, I don't care how mediocre at best he is, I have to vote for Biden. Like it or not, I absolutely have to. Once Trump is gone, I might consider a third party vote if it is someone I believe is the best.
So let me ask you this: If you had a 100% accurate crystal ball and knew for certain that voting for Amash would lead to a second Trump term, would you vote for Amash anyway?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,078
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
As someone who typically votes Libertarian, I can tell you we always hear that it's not the right election. Never is. Won't be in 2024 either. But I hear everything you're saying. You seem firmly Biden and I obviously get that. For me, Amash is the best candidate by a mile, I'm excited to vote for him, and would happily make the pitch to anyone else considering jumping on board early.
Let's be clear on what Amash is saying here. He's saying he believes that man is affecting climate, and that he supports alternative energy, but he's AGAINST government getting involved in driving/subsidizing/regulating any particular energy source. This is a true Libertarian position, but NOT an environmentally friendly one. If the cost of fossil fuels were to stay below that of clean energy, he's saying there's no reason for gov't to get in the middle of that, regardless of how badly it damages the environment for future generation. That's BAU and what we have today.
Good clarification, M. Thank you.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
As someone who typically votes Libertarian, I can tell you we always hear that it's not the right election. Never is. Won't be in 2024 either. But I hear everything you're saying. You seem firmly Biden and I obviously get that. For me, Amash is the best candidate by a mile, I'm excited to vote for him, and would happily make the pitch to anyone else considering jumping on board early.
Let's be clear on what Amash is saying here. He's saying he believes that man is affecting climate, and that he supports alternative energy, but he's AGAINST government getting involved in driving/subsidizing/regulating any particular energy source. This is a true Libertarian position, but NOT an environmentally friendly one. If the cost of fossil fuels were to stay below that of clean energy, he's saying there's no reason for gov't to get in the middle of that, regardless of how badly it damages the environment for future generation. That's BAU and what we have today.
Yeah, I totally agree with that position. There's no reason to subsidize current clean energy sources. They are marginal improvements, but there's nothing out there that is going to reverse course.
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
As someone who typically votes Libertarian, I can tell you we always hear that it's not the right election. Never is. Won't be in 2024 either. But I hear everything you're saying. You seem firmly Biden and I obviously get that. For me, Amash is the best candidate by a mile, I'm excited to vote for him, and would happily make the pitch to anyone else considering jumping on board early.
Let's be clear on what Amash is saying here. He's saying he believes that man is affecting climate, and that he supports alternative energy, but he's AGAINST government getting involved in driving/subsidizing/regulating any particular energy source. This is a true Libertarian position, but NOT an environmentally friendly one. If the cost of fossil fuels were to stay below that of clean energy, he's saying there's no reason for gov't to get in the middle of that, regardless of how badly it damages the environment for future generation. That's BAU and what we have today.
Yeah, I totally agree with that position. There's no reason to subsidize current clean energy sources. They are marginal improvements, but there's nothing out there that is going to reverse course.
Is that the Libertarian position, that it's too late? I know NASA and other agencies believe we can mitigate the damage and then start reversal in several decades. While not in my lifetime, that's still worth doing. "It's too late" doesn't seem to be Amash's angle, unless he's just avoiding saying it to pander for votes.
“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
As someone who typically votes Libertarian, I can tell you we always hear that it's not the right election. Never is. Won't be in 2024 either. But I hear everything you're saying. You seem firmly Biden and I obviously get that. For me, Amash is the best candidate by a mile, I'm excited to vote for him, and would happily make the pitch to anyone else considering jumping on board early.
Let's be clear on what Amash is saying here. He's saying he believes that man is affecting climate, and that he supports alternative energy, but he's AGAINST government getting involved in driving/subsidizing/regulating any particular energy source. This is a true Libertarian position, but NOT an environmentally friendly one. If the cost of fossil fuels were to stay below that of clean energy, he's saying there's no reason for gov't to get in the middle of that, regardless of how badly it damages the environment for future generation. That's BAU and what we have today.
Yeah, I totally agree with that position. There's no reason to subsidize current clean energy sources. They are marginal improvements, but there's nothing out there that is going to reverse course.
Is that the Libertarian position, that it's too late? I know NASA and other agencies believe we can mitigate the damage and then start reversal in several decades. While not in my lifetime, that's still worth doing. "It's too late" doesn't seem to be Amash's angle, unless he's just avoiding saying it to pander for votes.
No, I'm editorializing. All I know about his position is what's in that interview. I haven't looked at the LP platform on that, so I'm not sure on the party. If I were going to get behind subsidizing an available clean energy source or R&D on a new one, I'd want to know 4 things:
What is the fuel source, process, etc.? How is it implemented? Quantify the impact What's the cost?
That would apply to whatever NASA and other agencies might be doing.
“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”
“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”
Greatest Bushism ever
Referring to Karl Rove as Turd Blossom was better.
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
As someone who typically votes Libertarian, I can tell you we always hear that it's not the right election. Never is. Won't be in 2024 either. But I hear everything you're saying. You seem firmly Biden and I obviously get that. For me, Amash is the best candidate by a mile, I'm excited to vote for him, and would happily make the pitch to anyone else considering jumping on board early.
Let's be clear on what Amash is saying here. He's saying he believes that man is affecting climate, and that he supports alternative energy, but he's AGAINST government getting involved in driving/subsidizing/regulating any particular energy source. This is a true Libertarian position, but NOT an environmentally friendly one. If the cost of fossil fuels were to stay below that of clean energy, he's saying there's no reason for gov't to get in the middle of that, regardless of how badly it damages the environment for future generation. That's BAU and what we have today.
Yeah, I totally agree with that position. There's no reason to subsidize current clean energy sources. They are marginal improvements, but there's nothing out there that is going to reverse course.
Is that the Libertarian position, that it's too late? I know NASA and other agencies believe we can mitigate the damage and then start reversal in several decades. While not in my lifetime, that's still worth doing. "It's too late" doesn't seem to be Amash's angle, unless he's just avoiding saying it to pander for votes.
No, I'm editorializing. All I know about his position is what's in that interview. I haven't looked at the LP platform on that, so I'm not sure on the party. If I were going to get behind subsidizing an available clean energy source or R&D on a new one, I'd want to know 4 things:
What is the fuel source, process, etc.? How is it implemented? Quantify the impact What's the cost?
That would apply to whatever NASA and other agencies might be doing.
That's all well and good when you have multiple options and/or lack of an existential crisis. The only thing I want to know is the efficacy. We can work through the rest. It's not going to bury the economy.
And @brianlux, you were asking about Amash and the environment. He got into that in an interview with Nick Gillespie:
I'm glad if Amash is truly environmentally friendly. The problem is, if he pulls voted from Biden and Trump gets another four years, the damage to the environment Trump could cause might set things back even further beyond what I just mentioned. We cannot let this happen. Amash will not win this coming election. That is 99.99% certain. He needs to hold off for four more years.
As someone who typically votes Libertarian, I can tell you we always hear that it's not the right election. Never is. Won't be in 2024 either. But I hear everything you're saying. You seem firmly Biden and I obviously get that. For me, Amash is the best candidate by a mile, I'm excited to vote for him, and would happily make the pitch to anyone else considering jumping on board early.
Let's be clear on what Amash is saying here. He's saying he believes that man is affecting climate, and that he supports alternative energy, but he's AGAINST government getting involved in driving/subsidizing/regulating any particular energy source. This is a true Libertarian position, but NOT an environmentally friendly one. If the cost of fossil fuels were to stay below that of clean energy, he's saying there's no reason for gov't to get in the middle of that, regardless of how badly it damages the environment for future generation. That's BAU and what we have today.
Yeah, I totally agree with that position. There's no reason to subsidize current clean energy sources. They are marginal improvements, but there's nothing out there that is going to reverse course.
Is that the Libertarian position, that it's too late? I know NASA and other agencies believe we can mitigate the damage and then start reversal in several decades. While not in my lifetime, that's still worth doing. "It's too late" doesn't seem to be Amash's angle, unless he's just avoiding saying it to pander for votes.
No, I'm editorializing. All I know about his position is what's in that interview. I haven't looked at the LP platform on that, so I'm not sure on the party. If I were going to get behind subsidizing an available clean energy source or R&D on a new one, I'd want to know 4 things:
What is the fuel source, process, etc.? How is it implemented? Quantify the impact What's the cost?
That would apply to whatever NASA and other agencies might be doing.
That's all well and good when you have multiple options and/or lack of an existential crisis. The only thing I want to know is the efficacy. We can work through the rest. It's not going to bury the economy.
I completely agree with this, assuming the efficacy is very high. Because if it is, then the amount I'd be willing to see the government subsidize it would be extraordinarily high.
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,567
When I see smug comments like this part of me just wants to stay home and let trump win.
Trumpism as safe space from smug tweets is a new one.
I was thinking more because it’s like some people are more interested in making smug and pretentious comments about other people and smelling the air of their supposed moral high ground and supremely righteous stance than they are about actually doing work to get trump out. I’m sure rick and the twitter like are making a handsome sum with their daily twitter rage farm. I don’t understand how this position is more helpful than advocating for your candidate or against trump. Nothing is gained by posts like this. I guess alienating people that don’t share the exact opinions as you and saying they are falling for a big conspiracy of Russian bots is a great way to win an election.
When I see smug comments like this part of me just wants to stay home and let trump win.
Trumpism as safe space from smug tweets is a new one.
I was thinking more because it’s like some people are more interested in making smug and pretentious comments about other people and smelling the air of their supposed moral high ground and supremely righteous stance than they are about actually doing work to get trump out. I’m sure rick and the twitter like are making a handsome sum with their daily twitter rage farm. I don’t understand how this position is more helpful than advocating for your candidate or against trump. Nothing is gained by posts like this. I guess alienating people that don’t share the exact opinions as you and saying they are falling for a big conspiracy of Russian bots is a great way to win an election.
Wouldn't you only feel this way if what Rick is saying applies to you? Its not like voters weren't played in 2016.
When I see smug comments like this part of me just wants to stay home and let trump win.
Trumpism as safe space from smug tweets is a new one.
I was thinking more because it’s like some people are more interested in making smug and pretentious comments about other people and smelling the air of their supposed moral high ground and supremely righteous stance than they are about actually doing work to get trump out. I’m sure rick and the twitter like are making a handsome sum with their daily twitter rage farm. I don’t understand how this position is more helpful than advocating for your candidate or against trump. Nothing is gained by posts like this. I guess alienating people that don’t share the exact opinions as you and saying they are falling for a big conspiracy of Russian bots is a great way to win an election.
Wouldn't you only feel this way if what Rick is saying applies to you? Its not like voters weren't played in 2016.
When I see smug comments like this part of me just wants to stay home and let trump win.
There is a distinct sliver of "Never Trump conservatives" who have no ideology beyond hating Trump and preening online. Rick Wilson, Tom Nichols, Jen Rubin, and George Conway are the Mt Rushmore.
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,567
When I see smug comments like this part of me just wants to stay home and let trump win.
There is a distinct sliver of "Never Trump conservatives" who have no ideology beyond hating Trump and preening online. Rick Wilson, Tom Nichols, Jen Rubin, and George Conway are the Mt Rushmore.
Um, I believe their ideological is distinctly conservatism. That's why they hate Trump so much and want him removed. Thought that was clear...
When I see smug comments like this part of me just wants to stay home and let trump win.
Trumpism as safe space from smug tweets is a new one.
I was thinking more because it’s like some people are more interested in making smug and pretentious comments about other people and smelling the air of their supposed moral high ground and supremely righteous stance than they are about actually doing work to get trump out. I’m sure rick and the twitter like are making a handsome sum with their daily twitter rage farm. I don’t understand how this position is more helpful than advocating for your candidate or against trump. Nothing is gained by posts like this. I guess alienating people that don’t share the exact opinions as you and saying they are falling for a big conspiracy of Russian bots is a great way to win an election.
I share your contempt for people who behave this way, and there are no shortage of them in 2020...but being OK with Trump winning for any reason is a bridge much too far for me.
When I see smug comments like this part of me just wants to stay home and let trump win.
Trumpism as safe space from smug tweets is a new one.
I was thinking more because it’s like some people are more interested in making smug and pretentious comments about other people and smelling the air of their supposed moral high ground and supremely righteous stance than they are about actually doing work to get trump out. I’m sure rick and the twitter like are making a handsome sum with their daily twitter rage farm. I don’t understand how this position is more helpful than advocating for your candidate or against trump. Nothing is gained by posts like this. I guess alienating people that don’t share the exact opinions as you and saying they are falling for a big conspiracy of Russian bots is a great way to win an election.
I share your contempt for people who behave this way, and there are no shortage of them in 2020...but being OK with Trump winning for any reason is a bridge much too far for me.
When I see smug comments like this part of me just wants to stay home and let trump win.
There is a distinct sliver of "Never Trump conservatives" who have no ideology beyond hating Trump and preening online. Rick Wilson, Tom Nichols, Jen Rubin, and George Conway are the Mt Rushmore.
Um, I believe their ideological is distinctly conservatism. That's why they hate Trump so much and want him removed. Thought that was clear...
It's to line their own pockets. A few of them started a PAC called The Lincoln Project where they're fleecing Democrats and funneling donations to their own businesses.
Anti-Trump conservatism to me is more in the vein of Jonah Goldberg, David French, Charlie Cooke, etc. Outlets like The Dispatch and parts of National Review.
It's probably all inside baseball, but I find the first group absolutely insufferable like @static111 was saying.
Comments
To that point, would you feel differently if polling showed he's pulling more support from Trump or that's it basically a wash?
If Amash were to pull more votes from Trump I would be more happy than not, of course. If it were a wash, that would be OK too. But because there is a chance Trump could pull more votes from Bidden, much as I'm not big on good ol' Joe, I would be very worried. For that reason alone, I wish Amash would hold off for 4 more years. I really can't stand the thought of another 4 years of Trump. Trump has undone many years of environmental protection- years of hard work we have put in to help protect the environment. And even then, it is work that is not nearly complete. Trump has done so much damage that way, I may never see that damage reversed in my lifetime. But if we get him out of there, maybe there is a chance for a better world beyond my time here.
Good clarification, M. Thank you.
What is the fuel source, process, etc.?
How is it implemented?
Quantify the impact
What's the cost?
That would apply to whatever NASA and other agencies might be doing.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
(so so sorry if that seems smug!)
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Anti-Trump conservatism to me is more in the vein of Jonah Goldberg, David French, Charlie Cooke, etc. Outlets like The Dispatch and parts of National Review.
It's probably all inside baseball, but I find the first group absolutely insufferable like @static111 was saying.