Biden vs Trump 2020 - vote now and discuss!

Lerxst1992

Halifax2TheMax said:

The Juggler said:

Lerxst1992 said:

States that release party affiliation for voters who already submitted ballots - the following swing states all have Ds with a big lead

Democratic “leads”

FL +13
IA +22
NC +16
NV +14
PA +50

How bout that commonwealth of pa knocking early voting out of the park?!

Isn’t that just percentage of dem over repub votes and not total early votes cast? PA could have 100 votes cast and FL 10,000. And probably dems in Philly coming out in droves, early. And they still need to be counted. Question is, where and how are they kept until that happens? Arson is a real thing.

It’s the percentage.

From what I see, in millions of votes, FL has received 3.7M, NC 2.1 and PA 1.1

Edit, with trump, yea arson may be a thing. With the states that track party affiliations they have records of exactly who voted and probably track rejected ballots. I’ve seen a few states report that data.

mrussel1

Biden

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

The Juggler said:

Lerxst1992 said:

States that release party affiliation for voters who already submitted ballots - the following swing states all have Ds with a big lead

Democratic “leads”

FL +13
IA +22
NC +16
NV +14
PA +50

How bout that commonwealth of pa knocking early voting out of the park?!

Isn’t that just percentage of dem over repub votes and not total early votes cast? PA could have 100 votes cast and FL 10,000. And probably dems in Philly coming out in droves, early. And they still need to be counted. Question is, where and how are they kept until that happens? Arson is a real thing.

It’s the percentage.

From what I see, in millions of votes, FL has received 3.7M, NC 2.1 and PA 1.1

Edit, with trump, yea arson may be a thing. With the states that track party affiliations they have records of exactly who voted and probably track rejected ballots. I’ve seen a few states report that data.

6 million votes in PA in 16. 

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

So what's the deal with all the mail voting? Corona? Or is it some kind of movement..?

mace1229

Spiritual_Chaos said:

So what's the deal with all the mail voting? Corona? Or is it some kind of movement..?

Both.
I don't agree with the mass mail out ballots that's been going on. Some counties or states are mailing ballots to every registered voter, whether they asked for one or not. To think that there wont be any fraud is naïve. To also think the fraud will be exclusively one party and in large enough amounts to actually impact the election is also naïve. But I still think someone should have to request a mail ballot to receive one. 

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

mace1229 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

So what's the deal with all the mail voting? Corona? Or is it some kind of movement..?

Both.
I don't agree with the mass mail out ballots that's been going on. Some counties or states are mailing ballots to every registered voter, whether they asked for one or not. To think that there wont be any fraud is naïve. To also think the fraud will be exclusively one party and in large enough amounts to actually impact the election is also naïve. But I still think someone should have to request a mail ballot to receive one. 

Why would there be fraud because of ballots being sent out?

Parties send out ballots with their "vote for us" advertising to households in Sweden every election. I would guess we rank pretty damn high in safe elections.

What does a ballot matter? or maybe a ballot is something else than what it is in Sweden...

Ballot in Sweden:

HughFreakingDillon

Biden

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

So what's the deal with all the mail voting? Corona? Or is it some kind of movement..?

Both.
I don't agree with the mass mail out ballots that's been going on. Some counties or states are mailing ballots to every registered voter, whether they asked for one or not. To think that there wont be any fraud is naïve. To also think the fraud will be exclusively one party and in large enough amounts to actually impact the election is also naïve. But I still think someone should have to request a mail ballot to receive one. 

Why would there be fraud because of ballots being sent out?

Parties send out ballots with their "vote for us" advertising to households in Sweden every election. I would guess we rank pretty damn high in safe elections.

What does a ballot matter? or maybe a ballot is something else than what it is in Sweden...

some think it will cause people to vote more than once, hence, fraud. 

mace1229

More than voting twice, because I think there are measures against that, are ballots being misdelivered or stolen from the mail, or ballots being mailed to dead people and their relatives fill it out.
Like I said, it will certainly happen, but not in numbers big enough to actually change the results.

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

HughFreakingDillon said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

So what's the deal with all the mail voting? Corona? Or is it some kind of movement..?

Both.
I don't agree with the mass mail out ballots that's been going on. Some counties or states are mailing ballots to every registered voter, whether they asked for one or not. To think that there wont be any fraud is naïve. To also think the fraud will be exclusively one party and in large enough amounts to actually impact the election is also naïve. But I still think someone should have to request a mail ballot to receive one. 

Why would there be fraud because of ballots being sent out?

Parties send out ballots with their "vote for us" advertising to households in Sweden every election. I would guess we rank pretty damn high in safe elections.

What does a ballot matter? or maybe a ballot is something else than what it is in Sweden...

some think it will cause people to vote more than once, hence, fraud. 

So, how would that be possible?

Should be a safeguard against that, right?

Like in Sweden, where you are checked off a list at your designated voting place controlled against your ID (drivers licence, passport etc) when handing over the ballot(s).

I mean, this is how it looks at every voting place in Sweden - a heck of a lot of ballots to use if you would have been able to vote more than once...

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

mace1229 said:

More than voting twice, because I think there are measures against that, are ballots being misdelivered or stolen from the mail, or ballots being mailed to dead people and their relatives fill it out.
Like I said, it will certainly happen, but not in numbers big enough to actually change the results.

Are there precedent for this, or is it fear mongering?

And still, wouldn't you need something more to vote than a ballot (as in being checked off against your ID)... so why would a dead person be able to vote?

mace1229

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

More than voting twice, because I think there are measures against that, are ballots being misdelivered or stolen from the mail, or ballots being mailed to dead people and their relatives fill it out.
Like I said, it will certainly happen, but not in numbers big enough to actually change the results.

Are there precedent for this, or is it fear mongering?

And still, wouldn't you need something more to vote than a ballot (as in being checked off against your ID)... so why would a dead person be able to vote?

They're just being mailed out then either mailed back or dropped off at a voting box, no ID needed for a mail ballot. So you can steal a ballot from a mail box or get one misdelivered to you and still fill it out. And I'm sure someone who died within the last few months will probably still be getting a ballot in the mail. One reason I think its stupid for people who didn't even request one. 
So the fact there is going to be fraud is real. Saying its going to be hundreds of thousands of ballots stolen from the post office in a swing state and filled out for Biden is fear mongering. 

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

mace1229 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

More than voting twice, because I think there are measures against that, are ballots being misdelivered or stolen from the mail, or ballots being mailed to dead people and their relatives fill it out.
Like I said, it will certainly happen, but not in numbers big enough to actually change the results.

Are there precedent for this, or is it fear mongering?

And still, wouldn't you need something more to vote than a ballot (as in being checked off against your ID)... so why would a dead person be able to vote?

They're just being mailed out then either mailed back or dropped off at a voting box, no ID needed for a mail ballot. So you can steal a ballot from a mail box or get one misdelivered to you and still fill it out. And I'm sure someone who died within the last few months will probably still be getting a ballot in the mail. One reason I think its stupid for people who didn't even request one. 
So the fact there is going to be fraud is real. Saying its going to be hundreds of thousands of ballots stolen from the post office in a swing state and filled out for Biden is fear mongering. 

So, as long as you have a ballot - that equals a vote and no checks are being done for it to be cast? A ballot is no way checked of against an individual in any step of the process?

So if I found 25 ballots, I could just send them in an envelope in the ordinary mail and they would all be counted?

Hmm... Sounds a bit shaky.

mace1229

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

More than voting twice, because I think there are measures against that, are ballots being misdelivered or stolen from the mail, or ballots being mailed to dead people and their relatives fill it out.
Like I said, it will certainly happen, but not in numbers big enough to actually change the results.

Are there precedent for this, or is it fear mongering?

And still, wouldn't you need something more to vote than a ballot (as in being checked off against your ID)... so why would a dead person be able to vote?

They're just being mailed out then either mailed back or dropped off at a voting box, no ID needed for a mail ballot. So you can steal a ballot from a mail box or get one misdelivered to you and still fill it out. And I'm sure someone who died within the last few months will probably still be getting a ballot in the mail. One reason I think its stupid for people who didn't even request one. 
So the fact there is going to be fraud is real. Saying its going to be hundreds of thousands of ballots stolen from the post office in a swing state and filled out for Biden is fear mongering. 

So, as long as you have a ballot - that equals a vote and no checks are being done for it to be cast? A ballot is no way checked of against an individual in any step of the process?

So if I found 25 ballots, I could just send them in an envelope in the ordinary mail and they would all be counted?

Hmm... Sounds a bit shaky.

That's my understanding. I mean, you have to sign it. But is anyone really cross referencing the signatures with something on file? I'd be very surprised if they did. There's really nothing else to do when you can mail them back in. I guess you can make people scan their driver's license or something, but people are already against showing ID when voting in person.
The just mailing out ballots to everyone does seem shaky and dumb. At least make them request it, I've done that before.
There are literally tens of millions of ballots being mailed out to people who never asked for one and have no idea they're coming. 

mace1229

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

More than voting twice, because I think there are measures against that, are ballots being misdelivered or stolen from the mail, or ballots being mailed to dead people and their relatives fill it out.
Like I said, it will certainly happen, but not in numbers big enough to actually change the results.

Are there precedent for this, or is it fear mongering?

And still, wouldn't you need something more to vote than a ballot (as in being checked off against your ID)... so why would a dead person be able to vote?

They're just being mailed out then either mailed back or dropped off at a voting box, no ID needed for a mail ballot. So you can steal a ballot from a mail box or get one misdelivered to you and still fill it out. And I'm sure someone who died within the last few months will probably still be getting a ballot in the mail. One reason I think its stupid for people who didn't even request one. 
So the fact there is going to be fraud is real. Saying its going to be hundreds of thousands of ballots stolen from the post office in a swing state and filled out for Biden is fear mongering. 

So, as long as you have a ballot - that equals a vote and no checks are being done for it to be cast? A ballot is no way checked of against an individual in any step of the process?

So if I found 25 ballots, I could just send them in an envelope in the ordinary mail and they would all be counted?

Hmm... Sounds a bit shaky.

I'm not sure what you mean by being checked off against an individual. They only mail them to registered voters and they are tied to your name. But if your ballot ends up in someone else's hands there's really nothing keeping them from filling it out and mailing it in on your behalf. 

jeffbr

Biden

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

More than voting twice, because I think there are measures against that, are ballots being misdelivered or stolen from the mail, or ballots being mailed to dead people and their relatives fill it out.
Like I said, it will certainly happen, but not in numbers big enough to actually change the results.

Are there precedent for this, or is it fear mongering?

And still, wouldn't you need something more to vote than a ballot (as in being checked off against your ID)... so why would a dead person be able to vote?

They're just being mailed out then either mailed back or dropped off at a voting box, no ID needed for a mail ballot. So you can steal a ballot from a mail box or get one misdelivered to you and still fill it out. And I'm sure someone who died within the last few months will probably still be getting a ballot in the mail. One reason I think its stupid for people who didn't even request one. 
So the fact there is going to be fraud is real. Saying its going to be hundreds of thousands of ballots stolen from the post office in a swing state and filled out for Biden is fear mongering. 

So, as long as you have a ballot - that equals a vote and no checks are being done for it to be cast? A ballot is no way checked of against an individual in any step of the process?

So if I found 25 ballots, I could just send them in an envelope in the ordinary mail and they would all be counted?

Hmm... Sounds a bit shaky.

It is just GOP scare tactics to cast doubt and uncertainty. My state has been all mail in voting for over a decade. You have to be a registered voter to get a ballot mailed - but GOP would call those unsolicited since we don't have to request one each election. And the signature is checked on each against the voter registration. If signatures don't match the ballot us rejected. We have very little voter fraud in the state and it works well. I received my ballot last Thursday, dropped it in a ballot box on Friday morning, and by Monday the tracking on the election site showed my ballot had been received and counted. The fear mongering from the right about mail-in voting is getting boring. 

Halifax2TheMax

BS. Fear mongering.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2020/10/20/trumps-absentee-ballot-fraud-claims-not-supported-evidence/5969447002/

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-associating-mail-in-ballots-with-voter-fraud-became-a-political-tool/

https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-election-2020-ap-fact-check-elections-voting-fraud-and-irregularities-8c5db90960815f91f39fe115579570b4

THE FACTS: Trump is vastly overstating the potential for “mayhem” and fraud in “big unsolicited ballot states.”

There is no such thing as an “unsolicited” ballot. Five states routinely send ballots to all registered voters so they can choose to vote through the mail or in person. Four other states and the District of Columbia will be adopting that system in November, as will almost every county in Montana. Election officials note that, by registering to vote, people are effectively requesting a ballot, so it makes no sense to call the materials sent to them “unsolicited.”

More broadly speaking, voter fraud has proved exceedingly rare. The Brennan Center for Justice in 2017 ranked the risk of ballot fraud at 0.00004% to 0.0009%, based on studies of past elections.

In the five states that regularly send ballots to all voters, there have been no major cases of fraud or difficulty counting the votes.

Trump frequently blasts mail-in voting as flawed and fraudulent while insisting that mail ballots in certain states such as Florida, a must-win state for him are fine and safe. But mail-in ballots are cast in the same way as what Trump refers to as “absentee” mail ballots, with the same level of scrutiny such as signature verification in many states. In court filings, the Trump campaign has acknowledged that mail-in and absentee ballots are legally interchangeable terms.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-vote-by-mail-explainer/explainer-fraud-is-rare-in-u-s-mail-in-voting-here-are-the-methods-that-prevent-it-idUSKBN2482SA

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - With the number of Americans voting by mail on Nov. 3 expected to nearly double due to COVID-19, election experts see little reason to expect an increase in ballot fraud, despite President Donald Trump’s repeated claims.

Voting by mail is not new in the United States -- nearly 1 in 4 voters cast 2016 presidential ballots that way. Routine methods and the decentralized nature of U.S. elections make it very hard to interfere with mailed ballots, experts say.

While mail balloting has its drawbacks, it can help minimize the long lines, faulty voting machines and COVID-19-induced staffing shortages that have plagued some elections this year.

HOW SECURE IS IT?

Election experts say it would be nearly impossible for foreign actors to disrupt an election by mailing out fake ballots, a scenario floated by Attorney General William Barr.

For one thing, voters won’t just be selecting a president: They might be choosing candidates for city council, school board and weighing in on ballot initiatives. That can require hundreds of different ballot designs in a single county and the United States has more than 3,000 counties.

Ballots aren’t counted if they aren’t printed on the proper type of paper and don’t include specific technical markings.

States also require voters to sign the outside of their envelope, which they match to a signature on file.

Some 29 states and the District of Columbia allow voters to track their ballots to ensure they are received, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Fourteen states and D.C. also allow voters to return their ballots by hand if they don’t trust the mail.

Those envelopes are typically opened by a different group of workers than those who scan the ballots. Outside observers are allowed to monitor the process to ensure voter privacy.

IS FRAUD A PROBLEM?

As with other forms of voting, documented cases of mail-ballot fraud are extremely rare.

The conservative Heritage Foundation, which has warned of the risks of mail voting, found 14 cases of attempted mail fraud out of roughly 15.5 million ballots cast in Oregon since that state started conducting elections by mail in 1998.

The most prominent cases of mail fraud have involved campaigns, not voters. North Carolina invalidated the results of a 2018 congressional election after state officials found that a Republican campaign operative had orchestrated a ballot fraud scheme.

Experts say those scenarios can be minimized by nixing requirements -- currently in place in 11 states -- which instruct voters to get at least one witness to sign their return envelopes.

“All of these policies remove the need to hand over your ballot to someone you don’t know,” said Tammy Patrick, a former election official in Maricopa County, Arizona.

DOES IT HELP TURNOUT?

Turnout rates tend to be higher in states that conduct elections by mail. A Stanford University study found that participation increased by roughly 2 percentage points in three states that rolled out universal voting by mail from 1996 to 2018. It had no effect on partisan outcome and did not appear to give an advantage to any particular racial, economic or age group.

In Colorado, 77% of voting age citizens cast ballots in the 2016 presidential election, the highest figure in the country, according to the U.S. Election Assistance Commission. In Oregon, that figure was 72% and in Washington it was 68%, well above the national rate of 63%.

ARE THERE BARRIERS?

Like any other voting method, mail balloting has its drawbacks.

States rejected 1% of returned ballots in 2016 for arriving too late, missing signatures or other problems, according to EAC figures -- though that figure was as high as 5% in some states. It can be more difficult to fix errors on mail ballots than on those cast in person, experts say.

Mail ballots can pose additional barriers to those who don’t speak English or have disabilities, and delivery can be problematic on Native American reservations, where residents sometimes don’t have street addresses.

In California, which started transitioning to mail ballots in 2018, Black and Hispanic voters were twice as likely to cast their ballots in person, according to David Becker, head of the Center for Election Innovation and Research.

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

mace1229 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mace1229 said:

More than voting twice, because I think there are measures against that, are ballots being misdelivered or stolen from the mail, or ballots being mailed to dead people and their relatives fill it out.
Like I said, it will certainly happen, but not in numbers big enough to actually change the results.

Are there precedent for this, or is it fear mongering?

And still, wouldn't you need something more to vote than a ballot (as in being checked off against your ID)... so why would a dead person be able to vote?

They're just being mailed out then either mailed back or dropped off at a voting box, no ID needed for a mail ballot. So you can steal a ballot from a mail box or get one misdelivered to you and still fill it out. And I'm sure someone who died within the last few months will probably still be getting a ballot in the mail. One reason I think its stupid for people who didn't even request one. 
So the fact there is going to be fraud is real. Saying its going to be hundreds of thousands of ballots stolen from the post office in a swing state and filled out for Biden is fear mongering. 

So, as long as you have a ballot - that equals a vote and no checks are being done for it to be cast? A ballot is no way checked of against an individual in any step of the process?

So if I found 25 ballots, I could just send them in an envelope in the ordinary mail and they would all be counted?

Hmm... Sounds a bit shaky.

I'm not sure what you mean by being checked off against an individual. They only mail them to registered voters and they are tied to your name. But if your ballot ends up in someone else's hands there's really nothing keeping them from filling it out and mailing it in on your behalf. 

Ah, okey. I think I get it now. The difference. 

In the US the ballot is tied to a person, and you have to register to be able to vote and when registering you get one sent out to you.

In Sweden the ballots are not tied to a person. But when casting your ballot you as a person are being checked off on a list of names at your local voting place, controlled against your ID. So no one else can come and claim to vote in your name.

Okey. I got it.

gimmesometruth27

Biden

turn on the news. obama is going HAM all over trump in PA right now!!

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

So what is the reason for having to register to vote? As in the argument for it?

Why wouldn't every eligible voter be registered as a voter by being an eligible citizen?

Jearlpam0925

Biden

Spiritual_Chaos said:

So what is the reason for having to register to vote? As in the argument for it?

Why wouldn't every eligible voter be registered as a voter by being an eligible citizen?

Because 1) it's all left up to the states 2) it can be left up to a completely absurd political process. Otherwise, voting would/should be treated like the duty and right that it is. You hear from some people, some politicians, they will tell you voting is a privilege. Which is fucking absurd.

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

Jearlpam0925 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

So what is the reason for having to register to vote? As in the argument for it?

Why wouldn't every eligible voter be registered as a voter by being an eligible citizen?

Because 1) it's all left up to the states 2) it can be left up to a completely absurd political process. Otherwise, voting would/should be treated like the duty and right that it is. You hear from some people, some politicians, they will tell you voting is a privilege. Which is fucking absurd.

Well, sounds to me like in this case  @gimmesometruth27 and @DewieCox Sweden does it in a superior way.