All things Transgender related

tempo_n_groove

Spiritual_Chaos said:

jeffbr said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

jeffbr said:

Are you comfortable with Gern's example: I should say "is they going to shut up?" Sounds like a one-toothed hillbilly.

No. It sounds like a compassionate normal person.

Maybe to a non-native speaker of the language. I'll grant that a Swede may not notice these things. I wouldn't notice you using incorrect Swedish. So not a knock on you. Although how you conclude that one is compassionate and the user of correct grammar isn't, is a bit of a leap. So maybe I shouldn't give you a break here.

It is correct grammar (since the 14th century according to Wikipedia?) and accepted in its current usage:

They in this context was named Word of the Year for 2015 by the American Dialect Society, and for 2019 by Merriam-Webster. In 2020, the American Dialect Society also selected it as Word of the Decade for the 2010s.

So you are actually attacking and bickering over correct grammar. Is your mind blown yet?

Word of the year gets chosen because of the amount of times it was researched, not for it's place in social status.  Hell, Malarkey was word of the year too.

Gern Blansten

I'm changing my pronoun to "asshole"

ecdanc

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

Spiritual_Chaos

ecdanc said:

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

jeffbr

ecdanc said:

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

Suddenly? Every teacher I ever had was a prescriptivist, as they should be. And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization. We were intimately familiar with Turabian's manuals, and the Chicago Manual of Style.  I haven't used them as reference for decades so I can't say if they've changed, but can only say that I haven't suddenly become a prescriptivist.

Spiritual_Chaos

jeffbr said:

 And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization. 

You don't think these editors have accepted "they"?

jeffbr

Spiritual_Chaos said:

jeffbr said:

 And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization. 

You don't think these editors have accepted "they"?

You'd have to ask them. I can't imagine a sentence like "Is they going to shut up?" being considered acceptable usage in most publications, but I don't interact with editors these days. 

ecdanc

jeffbr said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

jeffbr said:

 And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization. 

You don't think these editors have accepted "they"?

You'd have to ask them. I can't imagine a sentence like "Is they going to shut up?" being considered acceptable usage in most publications, but I don't interact with editors these days. 

As I said above, it would probably be “are they...” even for the singular. 

tempo_n_groove

ecdanc said:

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

Something we are taught is to not use the term "those people" as it can be offending.

Calling a person "they" fits in to that to me and doesn't feel right.  I don't have a problem calling someone They if that is what they want.

I just don't understand the other non gender, non binary, genderqueer definitions.  Transgender is the easy one.

ecdanc

jeffbr said:

ecdanc said:

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

Suddenly? Every teacher I ever had was a prescriptivist, as they should be. And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization. We were intimately familiar with Turabian's manuals, and the Chicago Manual of Style.  I haven't used them as reference for decades so I can't say if they've changed, but can only say that I haven't suddenly become a prescriptivist.

“As they should be?” No, no, no. 

ecdanc

tempo_n_groove said:

ecdanc said:

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

Something we are taught is to not use the term "those people" as it can be offending.

Calling a person "they" fits in to that to me and doesn't feel right.  I don't have a problem calling someone They if that is what they want.

I just don't understand the other non gender, non binary, genderqueer definitions.  Transgender is the easy one.

Keep looking through that GLAAD site. 

tempo_n_groove

ecdanc said:

tempo_n_groove said:

ecdanc said:

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

Something we are taught is to not use the term "those people" as it can be offending.

Calling a person "they" fits in to that to me and doesn't feel right.  I don't have a problem calling someone They if that is what they want.

I just don't understand the other non gender, non binary, genderqueer definitions.  Transgender is the easy one.

Keep looking through that GLAAD site. 

I looked through it and I am telling you how it sounds to me...  The definitions they have for some even state that this might not be the proper term or they aren't defined yet and may not be able to be defined...

tempo_n_groove

Gern Blansten said:

I'm changing my pronoun to "asshole"

Me and Nart did that shit years ago.

benjs

tempo_n_groove said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm changing my pronoun to "asshole"

Me and Nart did that shit years ago.

Say hi to Nart for me if you're still in touch!

tempo_n_groove

benjs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm changing my pronoun to "asshole"

Me and Nart did that shit years ago.

Say hi to Nart for me if you're still in touch!

I am and I will.

brianlux

ecdanc said:

brianlux said:

ecdanc said:

brianlux said:

I can't help but wonder if some one has...

I know you probably won't believe me, but my only ulterior motive is to call out people who are being offensive/dehumanizing. 

Right, like homophobic, prejudiced bigots such as myself.

Now you’re being purposely obtuse. Your statement was linked to prejudice. Read. 

I can't help it- I like a good angle. 

brianlux

tempo_n_groove said:

ecdanc said:

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

Something we are taught is to not use the term "those people" as it can be offending.

Calling a person "they" fits in to that to me and doesn't feel right.  I don't have a problem calling someone They if that is what they want.

I just don't understand the other non gender, non binary, genderqueer definitions.  Transgender is the easy one.

I would call anyone anything they want but I might not believe the best choice for an individual is "they".  "They" is plural.  That choice makes no sense. 

Spiritual_Chaos

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

ecdanc said:

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

Something we are taught is to not use the term "those people" as it can be offending.

Calling a person "they" fits in to that to me and doesn't feel right.  I don't have a problem calling someone They if that is what they want.

I just don't understand the other non gender, non binary, genderqueer definitions.  Transgender is the easy one.

I would call anyone anything they want but I might not believe the best choice for an individual is "they".  "They" is plural.  That choice makes no sense. 

The singular they emerged by the 14th century,[3] about a century after plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since then, and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid-18th century by prescriptive commentators who consider it an error.[4][5][6] Its continued use in modern standard English has become more common and formally accepted with the change toward gender-neutral language,[5][7] though many style guides continue to describe it as colloquial and less appropriate in formal writing.[8][9]

In the early 21st century, use of singular they with known individuals emerged for people who do not identify as male or female, as in the following example:[10]

• "This is my friend, Jay. I met them at work. They are a talented artist."

jeffbr

ecdanc said:

jeffbr said:

ecdanc said:

Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist. 

Suddenly? Every teacher I ever had was a prescriptivist, as they should be. And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization. We were intimately familiar with Turabian's manuals, and the Chicago Manual of Style.  I haven't used them as reference for decades so I can't say if they've changed, but can only say that I haven't suddenly become a prescriptivist.

“As they should be?” No, no, no. 

Ok, a generalization on my part. I do think that when teaching children and non-native speakers, a prescriptivist approach is only logical. Language is already chaotic and without rules that would be exacerbated. We're trying to use language as a way to communicate, and if words can mean anything we want, and sentence structure doesn't exist, the act of communication becomes more difficult and imprecise. I'll note an example of this earlier in this thread. You used patriarchy in a non-standard way, and it caused confusion with multiple posters and likely even more readers, including me. After several exchanges you defined the word in the way you used it, and folks understood what you were saying, even if there wasn't buy-in or agreement on the definition. I also understand that language evolves and we need to adapt (and I may adapt at a slower pace than others). But I am not a proponent of adapting if it means completely ignoring rules or definitions. I go back to irregardless, an absolute pet peeve of mine. That is one of the least informed words I can think of. What does it mean? Usage says that it means regardless, so at best that word is inefficient as the ir prefix is redundant. Rules say that the ir prefix and the -less suffix have now created a double-negative, so one is essentially saying the opposite of what one intends. I will never say irregardless, regardless of common usage and irrespective of what Merriam Webster or the OED decide. I know we've now ventured down the rabbit hole, and clearly I've fixated on "they" as a singular pronoun. I will concede that I recognize the usage, and understand the intent. I haven't reached the point of accepting it as "proper", so that is  on me. But the original point is that one can't expect "improper" usage to be assimilated and preferred just because someone wants it to be. BTW, it does sound prescriptive when one tells me that I should be using "they" as a replacement for singular pronouns. This will take time as our usage evolves. It is obviously happening as we speak, and as TBerg said, at some point it will become standard, We aren't there yet, and antagonizing people for not being there will not get them there more quickly. 

amethgr8

Im offended by hillbilly.  How would anyone know that.

called a Tom boy as a kid.

ive had people ask me if I am a lesibian, I'm not.

no one really knows much about me unless I tell them.

Gern Blansten

amethgr8 said:

Im offended by hillbilly.  How would anyone know that.

called a Tom boy as a kid.

ive had people ask me if I am a lesibian, I'm not.

no one really knows much about me unless I tell them.

hilljack

amethgr8

Whatever works right

amethgr8

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

amethgr8

Anyone? Am I judged? Buzzkill?

hedonist

amethgr8 said:

Anyone? Am I judged? Buzzkill?

Nope

I think your first paragraph is right on. 

mrussel1

amethgr8 said:

Anyone? Am I judged? Buzzkill?

No judging at all.  Nice to hear a newer voice. 

amethgr8

K just checking, I know this is a safe place. 

gimmesometruth27

tempo_n_groove said:

benjs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm changing my pronoun to "asshole"

Me and Nart did that shit years ago.

Say hi to Nart for me if you're still in touch!

I am and I will.

tell nart i called him a crooked cop.

miss his voice around here.

mickeyrat

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

brianlux

amethgr8 said:

Im offended by hillbilly.  How would anyone know that.

called a Tom boy as a kid.

ive had people ask me if I am a lesibian, I'm not.

no one really knows much about me unless I tell them.

Often the labels put on us are hurtful- especially name calling on a mostly faceless forum.  Best to ignore that crap.

I've had a number of people mistake me for being gay.  When I went into teaching I spent several months working with a gay teacher who for a long time assumed I was gay as well.  My wife thought I was gay when I met her in 2001 (she figured out the reality pretty quickly.)  None of that ever bothered me.  All the gay people I've had as friends are people I'm very fond of, so calling me gay is not only not offensive, usually I think of it as a compliment.  But the kid that attacked me outside a Goodwill Store a few years ago called me "a fag",  now that really pissed me off.

Names, labels.  There often just a bad idea.