As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices. as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.
i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.
i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.
i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.
do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?
to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.
no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when you are 18". The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25. I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body. Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.
Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?
Interesting point. Is the a clear medical way to determine gender?
Gender is not a scientific area, so no.
Right so comparing it to things that are is probably not a fair comparison?
I was merely poking some gentle fun at we should “accept the human body.” Bodies are flawed in many ways.
As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices. as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.
i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.
i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.
i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.
do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?
to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.
no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when you are 18". The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25. I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body. Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.
Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?
Unless there is something medically wrong with the appendix (as it being dangerous to keep), wouldn't it be kept?
Removing an appendix isn't a sure-fire procedure and can cause complications. So it's not something that, to my knowledge, is removed on a kid on their initiative?
Appendices are removed when they cause problems for their host, hence the half-jestful comparison to some forms of physical transitioning.
As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices. as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.
i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.
i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.
i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.
do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?
to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.
no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when you are 18". The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25. I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body. Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.
Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?
Interesting point. Is the a clear medical way to determine gender?
Gender is not a scientific area, so no.
Right so comparing it to things that are is probably not a fair comparison?
I was merely poking some gentle fun at we should “accept the human body.” Bodies are flawed in many ways.
I wish I had the time to get further into this discussion. I'm slammed at work and have lots going on in my personal life, so I can't put the time in that some people somehow manage to, but it's an interesting discussion.
A few points. First, talking about the fact that the "human brain and body do not fully mature until 25" displays a lack of understanding of the nuance of that. Competency to make decisions is on a continuum, from little to no competency in young children to gradually increasing competency as once gets into the teens and twenties and beyond. 25 is not a magic number - people continue to mature over time, to a greater or lesser extent. Being 18 does not automatically make one more competent than 16 or 15, or even younger.
Second, the argument against allowing any biological treatments (like medication or surgery) prior to a specific age like 18 assumes that "doing nothing" is without risk, and we know that isn't true. Everything in medicine, like everything in life, has pros and cons, and you have to weigh them to make a decision. There is evidence of clear harms when trans individuals are not given the opportunities to express their gender in ways that are congruent for them, including a high rate of suicide attempts as well as other mental and physical health conditions. Dying with a body "intact" doesn't do anyone any good.
I wish I had the time to get further into this discussion. I'm slammed at work and have lots going on in my personal life, so I can't put the time in that some people somehow manage to, but it's an interesting discussion.
A few points. First, talking about the fact that the "human brain and body do not fully mature until 25" displays a lack of understanding of the nuance of that. Competency to make decisions is on a continuum, from little to no competency in young children to gradually increasing competency as once gets into the teens and twenties and beyond. 25 is not a magic number - people continue to mature over time, to a greater or lesser extent. Being 18 does not automatically make one more competent than 16 or 15, or even younger.
Second, the argument against allowing any biological treatments (like medication or surgery) prior to a specific age like 18 assumes that "doing nothing" is without risk, and we know that isn't true. Everything in medicine, like everything in life, has pros and cons, and you have to weigh them to make a decision. There is evidence of clear harms when trans individuals are not given the opportunities to express their gender in ways that are congruent for them, including a high rate of suicide attempts as well as other mental and physical health conditions. Dying with a body "intact" doesn't do anyone any good.
This last paragraph is gold. Thank you.
It's pretty good. I would think it would be a child/parent/doctor decision prior to 18 though.
hippiemom = goodness
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,945
Some of these posts give me the feeling some here think it's OK for people to look at their kids like they look at their pets. Let's dock its tail and clip the ears. Jesus, people, please don't go carving on your kids. Use some common sense. Elective surgery on children is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
flaws in the human body are a matter of perspective. If there is a clear defect that interferes with function then yes it could be considered a flaw. Being around women that constantly want to change how their face and different "undesirable" parts of their body, it's ridiculous what society deems as acceptable and what we "should" change. I was speaking loosely regarding the age of 25, of course maturity can occur earlier or later. Based on my own personal experience, I look back prior to 25yrs old and think, "what was I thinking when I did that".
There are all kinds of social traumas that occur in a life that lead to depression and worse.
I don't know how that conversation would go as I don't have any trans-children, so I cannot say specifically. But with love, understanding and support, we would figure it out.
Amy The Great #74594
New Orleans LA 7/4/95 reschedule 9/17/95
Chicago IL 1998, 10/9/00, 06/18/03, 05/16/06, 05/17/06
08/23/09, 08/24/09, Lolla 08/05/07
Champaign IL 4/23/03
Grand Rapids MI VFC 10/03/04
Grand Rapids MI 19May06
Noblesville IN 05/07/10 Cleveland OH 05/09/10
PJ 20 2011
Baltimore MD, Charlottesville VA, Seattle WA 2013
St. Louis MO, Milwaukee WI 2014
Tampa FL, Chicago IL, Lexington KY 2016 Missoula MT 2018
Some of these posts give me the feeling some here think it's OK for people to look at their kids like they look at their pets. Let's dock its tail and clip the ears. Jesus, people, please don't go carving on your kids. Use some common sense. Elective surgery on children is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
I sure hope you agree then on the barbaric mutilation that is called circumcision? Whether religious or from (ignorant) tradition? That is cruelty void of common sense.
At least with a 15 years old who feels he/she is trapped in the wrong body and wants to correct that in some way - they are at least the ones who is wanting it. Not the parent. Whether they should have the right to decide about that before 18 or not, is another discussion.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Some of these posts give me the feeling some here think it's OK for people to look at their kids like they look at their pets. Let's dock its tail and clip the ears. Jesus, people, please don't go carving on your kids. Use some common sense. Elective surgery on children is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
I wish I had the time to get further into this discussion. I'm slammed at work and have lots going on in my personal life, so I can't put the time in that some people somehow manage to, but it's an interesting discussion.
A few points. First, talking about the fact that the "human brain and body do not fully mature until 25" displays a lack of understanding of the nuance of that. Competency to make decisions is on a continuum, from little to no competency in young children to gradually increasing competency as once gets into the teens and twenties and beyond. 25 is not a magic number - people continue to mature over time, to a greater or lesser extent. Being 18 does not automatically make one more competent than 16 or 15, or even younger.
Second, the argument against allowing any biological treatments (like medication or surgery) prior to a specific age like 18 assumes that "doing nothing" is without risk, and we know that isn't true. Everything in medicine, like everything in life, has pros and cons, and you have to weigh them to make a decision. There is evidence of clear harms when trans individuals are not given the opportunities to express their gender in ways that are congruent for them, including a high rate of suicide attempts as well as other mental and physical health conditions. Dying with a body "intact" doesn't do anyone any good.
This last paragraph is gold. Thank you.
It's pretty good. I would think it would be a child/parent/doctor decision prior to 18 though.
I agree with you on the circumcision, but I'm not a man and my husband disagrees. when I ask why, it's because of how it "looks" which is a social perception.
Amy The Great #74594
New Orleans LA 7/4/95 reschedule 9/17/95
Chicago IL 1998, 10/9/00, 06/18/03, 05/16/06, 05/17/06
08/23/09, 08/24/09, Lolla 08/05/07
Champaign IL 4/23/03
Grand Rapids MI VFC 10/03/04
Grand Rapids MI 19May06
Noblesville IN 05/07/10 Cleveland OH 05/09/10
PJ 20 2011
Baltimore MD, Charlottesville VA, Seattle WA 2013
St. Louis MO, Milwaukee WI 2014
Tampa FL, Chicago IL, Lexington KY 2016 Missoula MT 2018
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,945
Some of these posts give me the feeling some here think it's OK for people to look at their kids like they look at their pets. Let's dock its tail and clip the ears. Jesus, people, please don't go carving on your kids. Use some common sense. Elective surgery on children is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
I sure hope you agree then on the barbaric mutilation that is called circumcision? Whether religious or from (ignorant) tradition? That is cruelty void of common sense.
At least with a 15 years old who feels he/she is trapped in the wrong body and wants to correct that in some way - they are at least the ones who is wanting it. Not the parent. Whether they should have the right to decide about that before 18 or not, is another discussion.
The person who came up with the idea of circumcision must have been one sick fuck. Mine was whacked when I was a baby too young to remember but I'll bet I didn't like it one damn bit.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,945
I agree with you on the circumcision, but I'm not a man and my husband disagrees. when I ask why, it's because of how it "looks" which is a social perception.
Totally a social perception. Besides, in most cultures, few people are going to look at it. I know I'm not!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I've never met a person who has complained that they were circumcised.
Not an argument in any way for taking control over and mutilating another persons body instead of letting that person A ) decide for themselves when being able to do so or B ) have a doctor come to the conclusion on a medical basis.
And I'm fairly sure you know this. But at the same time I believeyou are not open to, or admit to, a change of position because A ) you yourself were circumcised without consent and therefore "need" that to be a-okey or B ) You have taken the decision to circumcise your kids and do not want to face your own choices and having to re-evaluate choices made in relations to that or C ) you are unable, for whatever reason, to raise your view a tad from where you are standing.
And yes, now I would bet you will throw in something about there being a few percentage less risk of HIV or something like that. In a weird try to justify it being the morally right thing to do. But I have seen that before on here and with the going in circles The Dream Master-thing, the topic is not worth discussing.
Hopefully instead, you one day will admit the absurdity of it all to yourself.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I've never met a person who has complained that they were circumcised.
Not an argument in any way for taking control over and mutilating another persons body instead of letting that person A ) decide for themselves when being able to do so or B ) have a doctor come to the conclusion on a medical basis.
And I'm fairly sure you know this. But at the same time I believeyou are not open to, or admit to, a change of position because A ) you yourself were circumcised without consent and therefore "need" that to be a-okey or B ) You have taken the decision to circumcise your kids and do not want to face your own choices and having to re-evaluate choices made in relations to that or C ) you are unable, for whatever reason, to raise your view a tad from where you are standing.
And yes, now I would bet you will throw in something about there being a few percentage less risk of HIV or something like that. In a weird try to justify it being the morally right thing to do. But I have seen that before on here and with the going in circles The Dream Master-thing, the topic is not worth discussing.
Hopefully instead, you one day will admit the absurdity of it all to yourself.
You forgot D) I don't give a flying fuck. There are plenty more things that I can gripe about regarding my childhood than that.
I've never met a person who has complained that they were circumcised.
Not an argument in any way for taking control over and mutilating another persons body instead of letting that person A ) decide for themselves when being able to do so or B ) have a doctor come to the conclusion on a medical basis.
And I'm fairly sure you know this. But at the same time I believeyou are not open to, or admit to, a change of position because A ) you yourself were circumcised without consent and therefore "need" that to be a-okey or B ) You have taken the decision to circumcise your kids and do not want to face your own choices and having to re-evaluate choices made in relations to that or C ) you are unable, for whatever reason, to raise your view a tad from where you are standing.
And yes, now I would bet you will throw in something about there being a few percentage less risk of HIV or something like that. In a weird try to justify it being the morally right thing to do. But I have seen that before on here and with the going in circles The Dream Master-thing, the topic is not worth discussing.
Hopefully instead, you one day will admit the absurdity of it all to yourself.
You forgot D) I don't give a flying fuck. There are plenty more things that I can gripe about regarding my childhood than that.
Comments
There are all kinds of social traumas that occur in a life that lead to depression and worse.
I don't know how that conversation would go as I don't have any trans-children, so I cannot say specifically. But with love, understanding and support, we would figure it out.
New Orleans LA 7/4/95 reschedule 9/17/95
Chicago IL 1998, 10/9/00, 06/18/03, 05/16/06, 05/17/06
08/23/09, 08/24/09, Lolla 08/05/07
Champaign IL 4/23/03
Grand Rapids MI VFC 10/03/04
Grand Rapids MI 19May06
Noblesville IN 05/07/10 Cleveland OH 05/09/10
PJ 20 2011
Baltimore MD, Charlottesville VA, Seattle WA 2013
St. Louis MO, Milwaukee WI 2014
Tampa FL, Chicago IL, Lexington KY 2016
Missoula MT 2018
At least with a 15 years old who feels he/she is trapped in the wrong body and wants to correct that in some way - they are at least the ones who is wanting it. Not the parent. Whether they should have the right to decide about that before 18 or not, is another discussion.
New Orleans LA 7/4/95 reschedule 9/17/95
Chicago IL 1998, 10/9/00, 06/18/03, 05/16/06, 05/17/06
08/23/09, 08/24/09, Lolla 08/05/07
Champaign IL 4/23/03
Grand Rapids MI VFC 10/03/04
Grand Rapids MI 19May06
Noblesville IN 05/07/10 Cleveland OH 05/09/10
PJ 20 2011
Baltimore MD, Charlottesville VA, Seattle WA 2013
St. Louis MO, Milwaukee WI 2014
Tampa FL, Chicago IL, Lexington KY 2016
Missoula MT 2018
The person who came up with the idea of circumcision must have been one sick fuck. Mine was whacked when I was a baby too young to remember but I'll bet I didn't like it one damn bit.
Totally a social perception. Besides, in most cultures, few people are going to look at it. I know I'm not!
And I'm fairly sure you know this. But at the same time I believeyou are not open to, or admit to, a change of position because A ) you yourself were circumcised without consent and therefore "need" that to be a-okey or B ) You have taken the decision to circumcise your kids and do not want to face your own choices and having to re-evaluate choices made in relations to that or C ) you are unable, for whatever reason, to raise your view a tad from where you are standing.
And yes, now I would bet you will throw in something about there being a few percentage less risk of HIV or something like that. In a weird try to justify it being the morally right thing to do. But I have seen that before on here and with the going in circles The Dream Master-thing, the topic is not worth discussing.
Hopefully instead, you one day will admit the absurdity of it all to yourself.