I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
A lot of people think this way. I think this way.
It is something I try and understand and do not get, I just don't.
I have gay neighbors that have an adopted son that wants to trasngender/transform to a woman. They don't understand but are trying.
I'm trying.
It may take a lot of questions and people telling me I'm offending them or I am not getting it but I am trying.
In the end I may not understand but that doesn't mean that I am against what they are doing. Live and let live.
“This ... is ridiculous” does not sound like someone trying to understand.
I apologize if that offended you, truly. I think it is ridiculous in the sense that no one could possibly know what pronoun someone wants to be referred to as when we don't have it tattooed on our foreheads or wear some sort of sign/tag.
Ask?
I'm full of questions here.
I would think it might come off as rude if you asked?
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
A lot of people think this way. I think this way.
It is something I try and understand and do not get, I just don't.
I have gay neighbors that have an adopted son that wants to trasngender/transform to a woman. They don't understand but are trying.
I'm trying.
It may take a lot of questions and people telling me I'm offending them or I am not getting it but I am trying.
In the end I may not understand but that doesn't mean that I am against what they are doing. Live and let live.
“This ... is ridiculous” does not sound like someone trying to understand.
I apologize if that offended you, truly. I think it is ridiculous in the sense that no one could possibly know what pronoun someone wants to be referred to as when we don't have it tattooed on our foreheads or wear some sort of sign/tag.
I think the point ec is trying to advocate for (feel free to correct me ec as I may be way off) is that we discontinue using those pronouns which categorize based on our initial 1st impression of the person physically so that way it doesn't matter because the term would be ambigouos, unless clarified. I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage. On the other side of this though, I struggle with why it even matters that much? Both of my boys have had long hair most of their life (11 & 7) and have often been referred to as she or her when random people comment in conversation. Our youngest has the most beautiful long lashes to go with it so I'm sure it's easy to mistake him for a girl, but we simply correct them and move on. It's often the same old, "Oh, I'm sorry..." and we honestly don't care and laugh it off together. Now, does that have a long lasting impact on them psychologically? I don't know, but what we have taught them is that sometimes people stereotype based on certain physical characteristics and use their best judgment to assign what they believe to be the proper pronoun assessment (we explain that a little more kid friendly obviously). I have never seen it used to purposefully shame someone in my experiences, but if it were to happen, I would wager it would be other school age kids who can be the worst sometimes; however, I often feel that is a reflection of either their comfort level or what influence they have picked up from a parent or adult figure in their life.
I think remaining open minded and being willing to listen to others preferences and experiences (aka, just being a decent person who cares about more than yourself) would alleviate negative connotations.
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
I had this big thing wrote up and was going through it to make sure I got my point across and then I read this.
Thank you.
This made more sense than anything else I have read yet.
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
A lot of people think this way. I think this way.
It is something I try and understand and do not get, I just don't.
I have gay neighbors that have an adopted son that wants to trasngender/transform to a woman. They don't understand but are trying.
I'm trying.
It may take a lot of questions and people telling me I'm offending them or I am not getting it but I am trying.
In the end I may not understand but that doesn't mean that I am against what they are doing. Live and let live.
“This ... is ridiculous” does not sound like someone trying to understand.
I apologize if that offended you, truly. I think it is ridiculous in the sense that no one could possibly know what pronoun someone wants to be referred to as when we don't have it tattooed on our foreheads or wear some sort of sign/tag.
I think the point ec is trying to advocate for (feel free to correct me ec as I may be way off) is that we discontinue using those pronouns which categorize based on our initial 1st impression of the person physically so that way it doesn't matter because the term would be ambigouos, unless clarified. I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage. On the other side of this though, I struggle with why it even matters that much? Both of my boys have had long hair most of their life (11 & 7) and have often been referred to as she or her when random people comment in conversation. Our youngest has the most beautiful long lashes to go with it so I'm sure it's easy to mistake him for a girl, but we simply correct them and move on. It's often the same old, "Oh, I'm sorry..." and we honestly don't care and laugh it off together. Now, does that have a long lasting impact on them psychologically? I don't know, but what we have taught them is that sometimes people stereotype based on certain physical characteristics and use their best judgment to assign what they believe to be the proper pronoun assessment (we explain that a little more kid friendly obviously). I have never seen it used to purposefully shame someone in my experiences, but if it were to happen, I would wager it would be other school age kids who can be the worst sometimes; however, I often feel that is a reflection of either their comfort level or what influence they have picked up from a parent or adult figure in their life.
I think remaining open minded and being willing to listen to others preferences and experiences (aka, just being a decent person who cares about more than yourself) would alleviate negative connotations.
Thank you. By way of (perhaps oblique) response, I'll explain what I mean when I say--as I've said a few times on this thread--"your statement is linked to a discourse of prejudice" (or something to that effect).
We all know that transgender people are not universally accepted. We know that there are people who stridently reject the very existence of trans people (in the same way we still have actual homophobes and even virulent racists). Those people purposely misgender trans persons. In other words, they use the wrong pronouns, say things like "born a man," or any number of other things from that GLAAD page I've posted a few times--they do these things to make a statement and, yes, to mock or dehumanize trans people. They do it on purpose.
So, when someone who is not one of the truly awful says something out of willful ignorance ("I don't want to know") or benign ignorance ("I don't know") it SOUNDS just like the hateful person--it's all part of the same harmful discourse that marginalized people deal with all the time. Despite what you all say about me, I don't expect anyone to get all this right away; but very often the first step is recognizing how the things you do/say are connected to the things others do/say.
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
You'd think someone who has studied language for so long would be a better reader. I never accused Brian (or anyone else) of being a homophobe. For one thing, it'd be pretty dumb, because saying something anti-trans has nothing to do with being a homophobe.
Secondly, the gender/number issue is not problematic. Language evolves; we adapt to it. Dictionaries are already addressing the issue and many in the discipline of English--you know, where we study the language--are at the forefront of promoting the singular they.
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
Thank you for perfectly summarizing everything that needed to be said. In a language like English with words to spare, like you, I'm dumbfounded by the fact that a pluralized pronoun was selected to represent a single individual and that this was nurtured. Like you said, anyone who sees those characteristics in those two individuals, is seeing things as he wants them to be instead of how they are.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
I had this big thing wrote up and was going through it to make sure I got my point across and then I read this.
Thank you.
This made more sense than anything else I have read yet.
I don't really get this. Your stance is I'd rather use "proper grammar" and dehumanize someone than use bad grammar and not? (FYI: Not bad grammar).
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
Thank you for perfectly summarizing everything that needed to be said. In a language like English with words to spare, like you, I'm dumbfounded by the fact that a pluralized pronoun was selected to represent a single individual and that this was nurtured. Like you said, anyone who sees those characteristics in those two individuals, is seeing things as he wants them to be instead of how they are.
A tired excuse. This is not how the English language works. We don't have a group of people sitting around naming things. Language evolves and grows. Alternate pronouns (yes, they exist) did not catch on; "they" did.
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
So instead of saying "is he going to shut up" I should say "is they going to shut up?"
that makes no fucking sense
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
So instead of saying "is he going to shut up" I should say "is they going to shut up?"
that makes no fucking sense
I would say “are they going to shut up.” Switching the verb number seems the more common approach.
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
What do you think of some of the languages out there that assign gender to normal nouns. In French la vs le or une Vs un? For example?
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
So instead of saying "is he going to shut up" I should say "is they going to shut up?"
that makes no fucking sense
Also, your statement, while it sounds odd to us, makes sense
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
What do you think of some of the languages out there that assign gender to normal nouns. In French la vs le or une Vs un? For example?
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
You'd think someone who has studied language for so long would be a better reader. I never accused Brian (or anyone else) of being a homophobe. For one thing, it'd be pretty dumb, because saying something anti-trans has nothing to do with being a homophobe.
Secondly, the gender/number issue is not problematic. Language evolves; we adapt to it. Dictionaries are already addressing the issue and many in the discipline of English--you know, where we study the language--are at the forefront of promoting the singular they.
Sure. And many don't. Oftentimes common usage dictates acceptance (E.g. Irregardless, regardless of the convoluted structure which would actually make it mean 'with regard' -- the opposite of the intended meaning). Just because it ends up in a dictionary doesn't mean it makes sense to people who care about words (and I believe you previously stated that words matter). You are certainly welcome to accept nonsensical words that Webster may also have accepted due to common usage. I don't quite so readily, which is the basis of my disinterest in bastardizing the language to placate a few crusaders. While introducing a new word might require some effort, for me changing the meaning of an existing, common word, or bastardizing the rules of grammar requires more effort. What happened to "Hir", "Ze" and "Zir?"
And apologies regarding the homophobe accusation. You technically did not call Brian that. But you were relentless in pointing out your offense to him without being particularly instructive. It was apparent to most forum readers that Brian was not intending offense. You took what could have been an opportunity to educate and/or explain, and instead hurled insults and feigned offense, which is how you also seemed to respond to just about every other poster here. That will naturally get hackles raised, and then it is game on. So if your intention was to alienate and insult the group, you've accomplished that. If you intended to instruct and facilitate acceptance, sorry for your luck.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
So instead of saying "is he going to shut up" I should say "is they going to shut up?"
that makes no fucking sense
Also, your statement, while it sounds odd to us, makes sense
ok I guess that makes sense
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
What do you think of some of the languages out there that assign gender to normal nouns. In French la vs le or une Vs un? For example?
I think it makes it a pain in the ass during tests. The only way you know is by memory, not by any rule set.
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
What do you think of some of the languages out there that assign gender to normal nouns. In French la vs le or une Vs un? For example?
I think it makes it a pain in the ass during tests. The only way you know is by memory, not by any rule set.
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
If there's a will there's a way.
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him Hon = Her Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English.
So instead of saying "is he going to shut up" I should say "is they going to shut up?"
that makes no fucking sense
In current English language standards, it sounds incorrect, but is already in use in many areas, especially K-12 and college. 100 years from now, it may be common or have gone the way of the dodo. The true test is whether this is an over reaction to accommodate a small percentage of people or a moment of clarity and acceptance for a greater good. I think the greater good movement has a significant uphill battle.
We haven't even gotten past racism and sexism in society, which are much easier to understand and identify. There is no way significant acceptance and change happens this century.
tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage.
This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!
You'd think someone who has studied language for so long would be a better reader. I never accused Brian (or anyone else) of being a homophobe. For one thing, it'd be pretty dumb, because saying something anti-trans has nothing to do with being a homophobe.
Secondly, the gender/number issue is not problematic. Language evolves; we adapt to it. Dictionaries are already addressing the issue and many in the discipline of English--you know, where we study the language--are at the forefront of promoting the singular they.
Sure. And many don't. Oftentimes common usage dictates acceptance (E.g. Irregardless, regardless of the convoluted structure which would actually make it mean 'with regard' -- the opposite of the intended meaning). Just because it ends up in a dictionary doesn't mean it makes sense to people who care about words (and I believe you previously stated that words matter). You are certainly welcome to accept nonsensical words that Webster may also have accepted due to common usage. I don't quite so readily, which is the basis of my disinterest in bastardizing the language to placate a few crusaders. While introducing a new word might require some effort, for me changing the meaning of an existing, common word, or bastardizing the rules of grammar requires more effort. What happened to "Hir", "Ze" and "Zir?"
And apologies regarding the homophobe accusation. You technically did not call Brian that. But you were relentless in pointing out your offense to him without being particularly instructive. It was apparent to most forum readers that Brian was not intending offense. You took what could have been an opportunity to educate and/or explain, and instead hurled insults and feigned offense, which is how you also seemed to respond to just about every other poster here. That will naturally get hackles raised, and then it is game on. So if your intention was to alienate and insult the group, you've accomplished that. If you intended to instruct and facilitate acceptance, sorry for your luck.
Those words didn't catch on. I don't want to misrepresent your position, so I'll ask this as a question: if someone says to you "my preferred pronoun is 'they'" do you plan to respond "I'm sorry, I won't call you that, because grammar?"
Comments
Jesus I hate this fucking forum sometimes...
I think remaining open minded and being willing to listen to others preferences and experiences (aka, just being a decent person who cares about more than yourself) would alleviate negative connotations.
But notice I removed my comment because I misread your comment because I was eating a juicy pear at the same time which took some focus from me.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Thank you.
This made more sense than anything else I have read yet.
We all know that transgender people are not universally accepted. We know that there are people who stridently reject the very existence of trans people (in the same way we still have actual homophobes and even virulent racists). Those people purposely misgender trans persons. In other words, they use the wrong pronouns, say things like "born a man," or any number of other things from that GLAAD page I've posted a few times--they do these things to make a statement and, yes, to mock or dehumanize trans people. They do it on purpose.
So, when someone who is not one of the truly awful says something out of willful ignorance ("I don't want to know") or benign ignorance ("I don't know") it SOUNDS just like the hateful person--it's all part of the same harmful discourse that marginalized people deal with all the time. Despite what you all say about me, I don't expect anyone to get all this right away; but very often the first step is recognizing how the things you do/say are connected to the things others do/say.
Secondly, the gender/number issue is not problematic. Language evolves; we adapt to it. Dictionaries are already addressing the issue and many in the discipline of English--you know, where we study the language--are at the forefront of promoting the singular they.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.
Han = Him
Hon = Her
Hen = "unknown gender"
But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.
that makes no fucking sense
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
And apologies regarding the homophobe accusation. You technically did not call Brian that. But you were relentless in pointing out your offense to him without being particularly instructive. It was apparent to most forum readers that Brian was not intending offense. You took what could have been an opportunity to educate and/or explain, and instead hurled insults and feigned offense, which is how you also seemed to respond to just about every other poster here. That will naturally get hackles raised, and then it is game on. So if your intention was to alienate and insult the group, you've accomplished that. If you intended to instruct and facilitate acceptance, sorry for your luck.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
We haven't even gotten past racism and sexism in society, which are much easier to understand and identify. There is no way significant acceptance and change happens this century.