The coronavirus

what dreams

What I think is that lay people -- like us -- trying to figure this out in real time from our couch by reading all the click bait headlines out there are setting ourselves up for confusion, fear, and false starts. 

Remember HIV in 1981? We all thought it was gay disease. A decade later, when Magic Johnson got it, we all ran like mad to the clinics to get tested. We started wearing condoms. Thank God there was a reliable test by the time we wanted one. It took YEARS for there to be a reliable HIV test. It took DECADES for the treatments that are now keeping people alive until old age. We are SIX MONTHS into this virus. We know next to nothing for sure, yet, except that the vast majority of known cases are mild and can be self-treated at home. Terrible for all those people with the serious cases, sure -- but how many of those stroke incidents were due to pre-existing conditions?  We don't know an answer to that. Most people in the world don't even know they have high blood pressure, for goodness sakes, because there are no symptoms for it. How many of those stroked out because they had a high lipid count and didn't know it?  Heart disease is called "a silent killer" for a reason. 

I'm not a freaking doctor or a scientist, so I'm not going to sit in my arm chair and pretend I know anything for sure about his virus, nor am I going to stop questioning basic math when I read anecdotal reports in the Washington Post -- a paper I've read almost everyday since puberty, btw. Not knocking the post in general. Just questioning how "alarming" it is to see that some people with CoVid are having heart complications -- because they probably already had heart problems.

Lerxst1992

They had an expectation to survive under ordinary circumstances. The stress on the body caused by the virus is shortening their life.

oftenreading

what dreams said:

What I think is that lay people -- like us -- trying to figure this out in real time from our couch by reading all the click bait headlines out there are setting ourselves up for confusion, fear, and false starts. 

Remember HIV in 1981? We all thought it was gay disease. A decade later, when Magic Johnson got it, we all ran like mad to the clinics to get tested. We started wearing condoms. Thank God there was a reliable test by the time we wanted one. It took YEARS for there to be a reliable HIV test. It took DECADES for the treatments that are now keeping people alive until old age. We are SIX MONTHS into this virus. We know next to nothing for sure, yet, except that the vast majority of known cases are mild and can be self-treated at home. Terrible for all those people with the serious cases, sure -- but how many of those stroke incidents were due to pre-existing conditions?  We don't know an answer to that. Most people in the world don't even know they have high blood pressure, for goodness sakes, because there are no symptoms for it. How many of those stroked out because they had a high lipid count and didn't know it?  Heart disease is called "a silent killer" for a reason. 

I'm not a freaking doctor or a scientist, so I'm not going to sit in my arm chair and pretend I know anything for sure about his virus, nor am I going to stop questioning basic math when I read anecdotal reports in the Washington Post -- a paper I've read almost everyday since puberty, btw. Not knocking the post in general. Just questioning how "alarming" it is to see that some people with CoVid are having heart complications -- because they probably already had heart problems.

It’s actually your math that is faulty in your example. 

Lerxst1992

what dreams said:

What I think is that lay people -- like us -- trying to figure this out in real time from our couch by reading all the click bait headlines out there are setting ourselves up for confusion, fear, and false starts. 

Remember HIV in 1981? We all thought it was gay disease. A decade later, when Magic Johnson got it, we all ran like mad to the clinics to get tested. We started wearing condoms. Thank God there was a reliable test by the time we wanted one. It took YEARS for there to be a reliable HIV test. It took DECADES for the treatments that are now keeping people alive until old age. We are SIX MONTHS into this virus. We know next to nothing for sure, yet, except that the vast majority of known cases are mild and can be self-treated at home. Terrible for all those people with the serious cases, sure -- but how many of those stroke incidents were due to pre-existing conditions?  We don't know an answer to that. Most people in the world don't even know they have high blood pressure, for goodness sakes, because there are no symptoms for it. How many of those stroked out because they had a high lipid count and didn't know it?  Heart disease is called "a silent killer" for a reason. 

I'm not a freaking doctor or a scientist, so I'm not going to sit in my arm chair and pretend I know anything for sure about his virus, nor am I going to stop questioning basic math when I read anecdotal reports in the Washington Post -- a paper I've read almost everyday since puberty, btw. Not knocking the post in general. Just questioning how "alarming" it is to see that some people with CoVid are having heart complications -- because they probably already had heart problems.

I pointed out earlier NY has excellent stats on covid comorbidity. It takes some digging but the answers are clear. The first step is acknowledging 99% of US covid deaths were since March 22, about one months time.

about 9000 NYS victims also had hypertension, which is the number one comorbidity affliction with covid. 

Typically 225 people die per month in NY from hypertension 

9000 vs 225

Although comorbidity is certainly an issue, those numbers point clearly as covid being the dominant factor in the deaths.

Mike D88

It doesn't sound like you actually read the WaPo article. People without heart problems are throwing blood clots.

mace1229

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Anyone dumb enough to actually drink bleach probably won’t understand that message with the misplaced commas anyway.

Spiritual_Chaos

https://twitter.com/NewDay/status/1248575440681422853?s=20

https://twitter.com/nbcsnl/status/1254252640399249408?s=20

rgambs

Spiritual_Chaos said:

In, the beginning of April - 3,9 billion people were put in some type of lockdown measures. 92 countries. Now they are beginning to lighten these restrictions. What do you think of this phase in the pandemic?

Giesecke: I don't think you can keep these lockdowns going. Not in a democratic country. You can in China. But you should never compare yourself to China. In my view, a lockdown is pushing the problems forward. Obviously you are protected by the lockdown, if you are isolated home alone you will not get sick but the ones who are to be sick, will be sick later - because at some time you will lift the restrictions like you are pointing out. And getting closer to the Swedish way. Our nordic neighbours are opening their schools, In Austria and Germany shops are opening up again and they are contemplating opening the schools back up in Germany. 

And what I find so fascinating with this lockdown - half the worlds population affected and there is NO COUNTRY that has thought about how to exit this lockdown strategy. No country. No one has given it a thought. It is politicians who has decided on these lockdown measures and I'm here thinking "So... when will you end it? If you are closing schools now. When will they be open, what criteria will you go by?" And no one anywhere has even thought about it. (pause) "Exit Strategy" they call it.

But I guess, that state epidemiologists or similiar functions in countries are talking with each other?
Giesecke: Yes. Now they have started. (sarcastic) So, now is the time for that.

He gets worse every day.
Pushing the problem forward was always the goal, THAT'S WHAT FLATTEN THE CURVE MEANS, YOU SWEDISH MEATBALL!  (Giesecke, not you)

No one anywhere has thought about the exit strategy?  What a load of bullshit lol
He doesn't seem to be as much concerned with truth as he does his bitter little agenda of vindicating his own position.

Spiritual_Chaos

rgambs said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

In, the beginning of April - 3,9 billion people were put in some type of lockdown measures. 92 countries. Now they are beginning to lighten these restrictions. What do you think of this phase in the pandemic?

Giesecke: I don't think you can keep these lockdowns going. Not in a democratic country. You can in China. But you should never compare yourself to China. In my view, a lockdown is pushing the problems forward. Obviously you are protected by the lockdown, if you are isolated home alone you will not get sick but the ones who are to be sick, will be sick later - because at some time you will lift the restrictions like you are pointing out. And getting closer to the Swedish way. Our nordic neighbours are opening their schools, In Austria and Germany shops are opening up again and they are contemplating opening the schools back up in Germany. 

And what I find so fascinating with this lockdown - half the worlds population affected and there is NO COUNTRY that has thought about how to exit this lockdown strategy. No country. No one has given it a thought. It is politicians who has decided on these lockdown measures and I'm here thinking "So... when will you end it? If you are closing schools now. When will they be open, what criteria will you go by?" And no one anywhere has even thought about it. (pause) "Exit Strategy" they call it.

But I guess, that state epidemiologists or similiar functions in countries are talking with each other?
Giesecke: Yes. Now they have started. (sarcastic) So, now is the time for that.

He gets worse every day.
Pushing the problem forward was always the goal, THAT'S WHAT FLATTEN THE CURVE MEANS, YOU SWEDISH MEATBALL!  (Giesecke, not you)

No one anywhere has thought about the exit strategy?  What a load of bullshit lol
He doesn't seem to be as much concerned with truth as he does his bitter little agenda of vindicating his own position.

I will not touch on your attempts of a character assassination of a fine man, 

but I will touch on your errors -- "Flatten the curve" means making the curves peak lower by instead making the curve longer. The problem is digested bitesize at a slower tempo, but not all eaten later. To make healthcare cope. Like every country is doing. Including the US. Including Sweden. So his "pushing the problem forward" =/= "flattening the curve" which he has never said countries should not do. Sweden is only eating bigger sizes because our healthcare is considered being able to sustain it. And dealing with that problem now, and not in a few months.

His "pushing the problem forward" speaks of it being inevitable for people to die, if not now then later. And so, if you put a = between his "pushing the problem forward" and your "flatten the curve" then... why this criticism of Sweden as long as our health care can cope? Because, then you agree with him that the dead (problem) we see in Sweden now you will only see later.

It being inevitable.

Renfield

Spiritual_Chaos said:

https://twitter.com/NewDay/status/1248575440681422853?s=20

https://twitter.com/nbcsnl/status/1254252640399249408?s=20

I love this!❤️

Lerxst1992

Mike D88 said:

It doesn't sound like you actually read the WaPo article. People without heart problems are throwing blood clots.

I was comparing one comorbidity issue, strokes, with the most common, hypertension, to illustrate the comorbidity issue. Since hypertension is by far the biggest category for this issue, the statistics offer clearer picture.

 Stroke symptoms in normal situations often suddenly appear, so in most cases people are completely unaware the moment before a stroke occurs unfortunately. I’m not sure I understand what is unique to that compared to covid/stroke victims.

Mike D88

Sorry, I was replying to what dreams and should have quoted.

Bentleyspop

This is what happens when you have a leader who not only actually leads but really cares about her nations residents...

https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1254396572525264897?s=19

Spiritual_Chaos

Bentleyspop said:

This is what happens when you have a leader who not only actually leads but really cares about her nations residents...

https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1254396572525264897?s=19

Yeah, just saw a NZ official talk about it killing it completely on a show with Johan Giesecke who obviously comes in afterwards and owns the show.

(Impressive by NZ)

Different countries have used different methods to try and control the spread of coronavirus. While New Zealand went into lockdown very early on, Sweden has instead used a soft lockdown approach, keeping restaurants and pubs open. But have they managed the disease better than the UK?

https://youtu.be/CfZBzV6kUHw

23scidoo

Sounds like a 10 years old baby.

mcgruff10

The coronavirus death toll in New Jersey increased Sunday to 5,938 people, with 109,038 total cases statewide, though the total number of state residents hospitalized dropped to a three-week low with 6,573 patients under treatment for a confirmed or suspected case.  The numbers announced by Gov. Phil Murphy include 75 additional deaths and 3,730 new positive tests reported in the last 24 hours.

Maybe I'll be able to go out around Thanksgiving?

what dreams

Mike D88 said:

Sorry, I was replying to what dreams and should have quoted.

I have read the article,  once before it was even posted here and now two more times as I've responded to criticisms of my reading ability.

What I see from the article is a bunch of doctors who keep saying repeatedly that THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND why the strokes are happening. None of their reports, not studies, have been published. One study of the stroke issue in general I see is being reviewed.

All this article tells me is that it's the age when stroke is unusual in a small number of cases. In one specific case, the quoted doc says no history of underlying conditions. Not having a history doesn't necessarily mean the condition wasn't there. Lack of history *could* mean the 40 year old man never had his cholesterol checked. I love the part about the Jefferson hospital in Philadelphia where 12 patients have stroked and 40% of them are young. That's 4.8 people. How does that happen, 8 tenths of a person has a stroke? 

So, to me, this issue is a quirky phenomenon, outliers, faraway outliers, of what the disease does. A couple of doctors are interested in these outliers because they are neurologists, but the Washington Post wants us all to be ALARMED by it and scare people because fearful headlines keep the readers clicking. That's what is ridiculous. It makes me question your reading ability that you can't see that.

what dreams

Never mind

what dreams

Lerxst1992 said:

They had an expectation to survive under ordinary circumstances. The stress on the body caused by the virus is shortening their life.

This I would agree with. Stress . . . Number one killer of all people during normal times. This is a stress the body has never known. People's bodies respond differently to stress, so it makes sense that doctors are seeing some weird shit.

bootlegger10

mcgruff10 said:

The coronavirus death toll in New Jersey increased Sunday to 5,938 people, with 109,038 total cases statewide, though the total number of state residents hospitalized dropped to a three-week low with 6,573 patients under treatment for a confirmed or suspected case.  The numbers announced by Gov. Phil Murphy include 75 additional deaths and 3,730 new positive tests reported in the last 24 hours.

Maybe I'll be able to go out around Thanksgiving?

Sweden has about 2,100 deaths compared to NJ at 5,938.   Sweden has not instigated shutdown orders like in New Jersey and the majority of the US.    I think at the end of the day there is no one size fits all way of handling this virus as each country is unique.