It doesn't sound like you actually read the WaPo article. People without heart problems are throwing blood clots.
I was comparing one comorbidity issue, strokes, with the most common, hypertension, to illustrate the comorbidity issue. Since hypertension is by far the biggest category for this issue, the statistics offer clearer picture.
Stroke symptoms in normal situations often suddenly appear, so in most cases people are completely unaware the moment before a stroke occurs unfortunately. I’m not sure I understand what is unique to that compared to covid/stroke victims.
Yeah, just saw a NZ official talk about it killing it completely on a show with Johan Giesecke who obviously comes in afterwards and owns the show.
(Impressive by NZ)
Different countries have used different methods to try and control the spread of coronavirus. While New Zealand went into lockdown very early on, Sweden has instead used a soft lockdown approach, keeping restaurants and pubs open. But have they managed the disease better than the UK?
The coronavirus death toll in New Jersey increased Sunday to 5,938 people, with 109,038 total cases statewide, though the total number of state residents hospitalized dropped to a three-week low with 6,573 patients under treatment for a confirmed or suspected case. The numbers announced by Gov. Phil Murphy include 75 additional deaths and 3,730 new positive tests reported in the last 24 hours.
Sorry, I was replying to what dreams and should have quoted.
I have read the article, once before it was even posted here and now two more times as I've responded to criticisms of my reading ability.
What I see from the article is a bunch of doctors who keep saying repeatedly that THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND why the strokes are happening. None of their reports, not studies, have been published. One study of the stroke issue in general I see is being reviewed.
All this article tells me is that it's the age when stroke is unusual in a small number of cases. In one specific case, the quoted doc says no history of underlying conditions. Not having a history doesn't necessarily mean the condition wasn't there. Lack of history *could* mean the 40 year old man never had his cholesterol checked. I love the part about the Jefferson hospital in Philadelphia where 12 patients have stroked and 40% of them are young. That's 4.8 people. How does that happen, 8 tenths of a person has a stroke?
So, to me, this issue is a quirky phenomenon, outliers, faraway outliers, of what the disease does. A couple of doctors are interested in these outliers because they are neurologists, but the Washington Post wants us all to be ALARMED by it and scare people because fearful headlines keep the readers clicking. That's what is ridiculous. It makes me question your reading ability that you can't see that.
They had an expectation to survive under ordinary circumstances. The stress on the body caused by the virus is shortening their life.
This I would agree with. Stress . . . Number one killer of all people during normal times. This is a stress the body has never known. People's bodies respond differently to stress, so it makes sense that doctors are seeing some weird shit.
The coronavirus death toll in New Jersey increased Sunday to 5,938 people, with 109,038 total cases statewide, though the total number of state residents hospitalized dropped to a three-week low with 6,573 patients under treatment for a confirmed or suspected case. The numbers announced by Gov. Phil Murphy include 75 additional deaths and 3,730 new positive tests reported in the last 24 hours.
Maybe I'll be able to go out around Thanksgiving?
Sweden has about 2,100 deaths compared to NJ at 5,938. Sweden has not instigated shutdown orders like in New Jersey and the majority of the US. I think at the end of the day there is no one size fits all way of handling this virus as each country is unique.
Half of NJ (hyperbole, I know) works in NYC, or has neighbors who do... the most highly concentrated zone for this shit. If Sweden were right next door they would feel the brunt of that as well.
Speaking of stress, what ARE people doing to keep their immune system strong and minimize their stress?
I'm thankful for a lifetime habit of eating well, I've been an on and off again smoker but right now, I won't touch a cigarette, doing the yoga and talking walks among the trees, refusing to look at my retirement account, not worrying about being the perfect work from home teacher, turning off most of the news, *trying* not to get suckered into arguments with people about this thing (key word, trying).
Dffusing the tea tree oil, bought my emergency supply of Tylenol, eucalyptus rub, and cans of chicken soup. It is pretty much inevitable. Unless I stay in a bunker for the next two years -- which I can't because of my life circumstances-- I will get this illness. I plan on fighting it like a champ, regardless of the outcome.
The hard part I'm still trying to figure out is having the difficult convo with my mom about what to do when she gets it. I have to go back to work when we open up. I will bring the virus home. There is nowhere else for her to go, and this is how she's going to die. Will we be sick at the same time? Does she want a ventilator and prolong the inevitable? Or do we just let her go? How will I stand not being in the hospital with her? This is my stress, the thing that scares me.
Speaking of stress, what ARE people doing to keep their immune system strong and minimize their stress?
I'm thankful for a lifetime habit of eating well, I've been an on and off again smoker but right now, I won't touch a cigarette, doing the yoga and talking walks among the trees, refusing to look at my retirement account, not worrying about being the perfect work from home teacher, turning off most of the news, *trying* not to get suckered into arguments with people about this thing (key word, trying).
Dffusing the tea tree oil, bought my emergency supply of Tylenol, eucalyptus rub, and cans of chicken soup. It is pretty much inevitable. Unless I stay in a bunker for the next two years -- which I can't because of my life circumstances-- I will get this illness. I plan on fighting it like a champ, regardless of the outcome.
The hard part I'm still trying to figure out is having the difficult convo with my mom about what to do when she gets it. I have to go back to work when we open up. I will bring the virus home. There is nowhere else for her to go, and this is how she's going to die. Will we be sick at the same time? Does she want a ventilator and prolong the inevitable? Or do we just let her go? How will I stand not being in the hospital with her? This is my stress, the thing that scares me.
I think it's good to prepare yourself for the possibility of your mom getting it and dying, (I've done the same with my parents) but it definitely isn't inevitable. The odds should still be in her favour.
Earlier this month, Swedish epidemiologist Johan Giesecke claimed in an interview with UnHerd that the UK was wrong to implement its lockdown measures, and singled out Professor Neil Ferguson’s Imperial study for being too pessimistic in its prediction of 500k corona deaths. Describing it as “not very good”, Giesecke was surprised it had such an impact on policymakers.
Today we heard from the other side when Freddie Sayers spoke to Prof Ferguson to get his response to the Swedish critique and much else. He said that:
The majority of epidemiologists agree with his position.
Sweden is still seeing day-on-day increases in death and infection rates, whereas the UK’s has fallen.
Maintains that UK infection-fatality rate is 0.8-0.9%.
No allowance was made in the original model for avoidable deaths due to lack of treatment for other conditions.
The lockdown strategy has been effective, but it it is not sustainable in the long-run.
Lockdown has had a significant mental health and social impact on mortality in terms of not just isolating people, but in cancelled treatments.
He is surprised by how much adherence to these measures has taken place – higher than he had assumed in his models.
The UK should employ the South Korean model.
Shielding the elderly and re-opening the country is idealistic and has not occurred anywhere in the world.
If this strategy was attempted, there will still be over 100k deaths.
Health service capacity is a good guide to lifting restrictions — and capacity is there.
There will have to be social distancing until we have a vaccine — we won’t be normal society until then.
Politicians make the decisions, not SAGE.
Dominic Cummings observed, but did not get involved in decision-making at SAGE.
Half of NJ (hyperbole, I know) works in NYC, or has neighbors who do... the most highly concentrated zone for this shit. If Sweden were right next door they would feel the brunt of that as well.
Being the most densely populated state doesn't help us either. Sweden and nj are in the same ballpark with respect to population but Sweden is approx 23 times bigger than NJ.
In, the beginning of April - 3,9 billion people were put in some type of lockdown measures. 92 countries. Now they are beginning to lighten these restrictions. What do you think of this phase in the pandemic?
Giesecke: I don't think you can keep these lockdowns going. Not in a democratic country. You can in China. But you should never compare yourself to China. In my view, a lockdown is pushing the problems forward. Obviously you are protected by the lockdown, if you are isolated home alone you will not get sick but the ones who are to be sick, will be sick later - because at some time you will lift the restrictions like you are pointing out. And getting closer to the Swedish way. Our nordic neighbours are opening their schools, In Austria and Germany shops are opening up again and they are contemplating opening the schools back up in Germany.
And what I find so fascinating with this lockdown - half the worlds population affected and there is NO COUNTRY that has thought about how to exit this lockdown strategy. No country. No one has given it a thought. It is politicians who has decided on these lockdown measures and I'm here thinking "So... when will you end it? If you are closing schools now. When will they be open, what criteria will you go by?" And no one anywhere has even thought about it. (pause) "Exit Strategy" they call it.
But I guess, that state epidemiologists or similiar functions in countries are talking with each other? Giesecke: Yes. Now they have started. (sarcastic) So, now is the time for that.
He gets worse every day. Pushing the problem forward was always the goal, THAT'S WHAT FLATTEN THE CURVE MEANS, YOU SWEDISH MEATBALL! (Giesecke, not you)
No one anywhere has thought about the exit strategy? What a load of bullshit lol He doesn't seem to be as much concerned with truth as he does his bitter little agenda of vindicating his own position.
I will not touch on your attempts of a character assassination of a fine man,
but I will touch on your errors -- "Flatten the curve" means making the curves peak lower by instead making the curve longer. The problem is digested bitesize at a slower tempo, but not all eaten later. To make healthcare cope. Like every country is doing. Including the US. Including Sweden. So his "pushing the problem forward" =/= "flattening the curve" which he has never said countries should not do. Sweden is only eating bigger sizes because our healthcare is considered being able to sustain it. And dealing with that problem now, and not in a few months.
His "pushing the problem forward" speaks of it being inevitable for people to die, if not now then later. And so, if you put a = between his "pushing the problem forward" and your "flatten the curve" then... why this criticism of Sweden as long as our health care can cope? Because, then you agree with him that the dead (problem) we see in Sweden now you will only see later.
It being inevitable.
"And what I find so fascinating with this lockdown - half the worlds
population affected and there is NO COUNTRY that has thought about how
to exit this lockdown strategy. No country."
This is somewhat false. Though not a country per-say, California is basically a Nation- State. Our governor, Gavin Newsom, along with the governors of Oregon and Washington, have and are spending a great deal of time working on an exit strategy from lock down. What we are learning about COVID-19 disease is ongoing and it is impossible to have a completely pre-determined exit strategy. It has to be tailored to how things change and what we learn. Out governor and his consultants are wise enough to know this and are working diligently on building as good as possible a viable exit strategy as things develop. I believe your hero here has made some false assumptions.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Sorry, I was replying to what dreams and should have quoted.
I love the part about the Jefferson hospital in Philadelphia where 12 patients have stroked and 40% of them are young. That's 4.8 people. How does that happen, 8 tenths of a person has a stroke?
Gee, maybe it's 5.0 people and they rounded to 40% instead of using 41.6666666666666666667%?
The coronavirus death toll in New Jersey increased Sunday to 5,938 people, with 109,038 total cases statewide, though the total number of state residents hospitalized dropped to a three-week low with 6,573 patients under treatment for a confirmed or suspected case. The numbers announced by Gov. Phil Murphy include 75 additional deaths and 3,730 new positive tests reported in the last 24 hours.
Maybe I'll be able to go out around Thanksgiving?
Sweden has about 2,100 deaths compared to NJ at 5,938. Sweden has not instigated shutdown orders like in New Jersey and the majority of the US. I think at the end of the day there is no one size fits all way of handling this virus as each country is unique.
Speaking of this, right now from the talk with that brit Neil Ferguson:
" I've tried to give my judgment to what direction the science point in, there is an open question and countries will take different decisions on how they should move forward. Even the countries which have locked down and there is scientific uncertainty there and I think we have to appreciate that. And I mean, that is why I would not be directly critical of for instance Swedish scientists or even politicans. I think they have made a decision that will have certain consequences but it's understandable how they reached those decisions."
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The death toll from coronavirus may be almost 60 per cent higher than reported in official counts, according to an FT analysis of overall fatalities during the pandemic in 14 countries.
Mortality statistics show 122,000 deaths in excess of normal levels across these locations, considerably higher than the 77,000 official Covid-19 deaths reported for the same places and time periods.
If the same level of underreporting observed in these countries was happening worldwide, the global Covid-19 death toll would rise from the current official total of 201,000 to as high as 318,000.
2008 Tampa - 2013 Buffalo - 2016 Tampa - 2016 Fenway II Audioslave 2005 MSG
Neil Ferguson mentioned that excess death doesn't have to be only due to dying from corona -- but dying from other things because of a lack of care because of stressed healthcare systems because of corona.
So I guess de facto because of Corona, but not because of being infected by it.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
The death toll from coronavirus may be almost 60 per cent higher than reported in official counts, according to an FT analysis of overall fatalities during the pandemic in 14 countries.
Mortality statistics show 122,000 deaths in excess of normal levels across these locations, considerably higher than the 77,000 official Covid-19 deaths reported for the same places and time periods.
If the same level of underreporting observed in these countries was happening worldwide, the global Covid-19 death toll would rise from the current official total of 201,000 to as high as 318,000.
Any idea what would be the reason for this under-reported figures, Mike?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
The coronavirus death toll in New Jersey increased Sunday to 5,938 people, with 109,038 total cases statewide, though the total number of state residents hospitalized dropped to a three-week low with 6,573 patients under treatment for a confirmed or suspected case. The numbers announced by Gov. Phil Murphy include 75 additional deaths and 3,730 new positive tests reported in the last 24 hours.
Maybe I'll be able to go out around Thanksgiving?
Sweden has about 2,100 deaths compared to NJ at 5,938. Sweden has not instigated shutdown orders like in New Jersey and the majority of the US. I think at the end of the day there is no one size fits all way of handling this virus as each country is unique.
I agree with the exception that travel needs to be significantly locked down for awhile. That’s easy to do in Sweden as it’s fairly isolated and they don’t have 300 million who could potentially drive there. They shut their borders and essentially can lock down their entire population of 10 million.
Compare that to the thousands of Healthcare and first responders currently traveling to NYC from a populated region of close to 25 million. Even with a lockdown, NYC probably has more people moving within its region and inside/ outside city limits than Sweden.
absurd as it may sound, Sweden is probably more efficiently locked down than NYC.
Sweden is about 25% of the size of California yet unfortunately they have more fatalities. I am not sure why some favorably view the way Sweden has handled this. In my opinion, and it’s just an opinion so everyone can throw it in the trash as soon as I say it, is Sweden is much better isolated from its neighboring regions than NJ.
So what is different between California, Sweden and NJ? In California people travel mostly by car. The car provides a natural barrier for safely breathing. NJ is part of one of the most comprehensive mass transit systems in the world. Anyone who has ever packed onto a NYC subway can imagine how many people you can cram into a circumference of six feet. That’s how the virus got it’s foot into t(e NY region.
No one has any problems criticizing Sweden with a broad brush, but never themselves because then "everything is different and unique"
Have you ever thought about that? Haha.
I wasn't criticizing Sweden with my comment. I compare a state like Indiana with 800 deaths to Sweden with 2,100. Indiana shutdown for the last four weeks and Sweden stayed open. I would have expected a lot more deaths in Sweden or a lot less in Indiana comparatively. Why was there a difference?
Any idea what would be the reason for this under-reported figures, Mike?
The FT article goes into this a little (it's free to read). Reporting mechanisms are beyond capacity in places, especially in developing countries and heavily urbanized areas. Many people are not getting tested, so their death isn't necessarily being attributed to the virus.
Anecdotally I know people are sometimes dying at home after being denied testing.
Post edited by Mike D88 on
2008 Tampa - 2013 Buffalo - 2016 Tampa - 2016 Fenway II Audioslave 2005 MSG
Comments
Stroke symptoms in normal situations often suddenly appear, so in most cases people are completely unaware the moment before a stroke occurs unfortunately. I’m not sure I understand what is unique to that compared to covid/stroke victims.
2008 Tampa - 2013 Buffalo - 2016 Tampa - 2016 Fenway II
Audioslave 2005 MSG
(Impressive by NZ)
Different countries have used different methods to try and control the spread of coronavirus. While New Zealand went into lockdown very early on, Sweden has instead used a soft lockdown approach, keeping restaurants and pubs open. But have they managed the disease better than the UK?
Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.
I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
Maybe I'll be able to go out around Thanksgiving?
What I see from the article is a bunch of doctors who keep saying repeatedly that THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND why the strokes are happening. None of their reports, not studies, have been published. One study of the stroke issue in general I see is being reviewed.
All this article tells me is that it's the age when stroke is unusual in a small number of cases. In one specific case, the quoted doc says no history of underlying conditions. Not having a history doesn't necessarily mean the condition wasn't there. Lack of history *could* mean the 40 year old man never had his cholesterol checked. I love the part about the Jefferson hospital in Philadelphia where 12 patients have stroked and 40% of them are young. That's 4.8 people. How does that happen, 8 tenths of a person has a stroke?
So, to me, this issue is a quirky phenomenon, outliers, faraway outliers, of what the disease does. A couple of doctors are interested in these outliers because they are neurologists, but the Washington Post wants us all to be ALARMED by it and scare people because fearful headlines keep the readers clicking. That's what is ridiculous. It makes me question your reading ability that you can't see that.
If Sweden were right next door they would feel the brunt of that as well.
I'm thankful for a lifetime habit of eating well, I've been an on and off again smoker but right now, I won't touch a cigarette, doing the yoga and talking walks among the trees, refusing to look at my retirement account, not worrying about being the perfect work from home teacher, turning off most of the news, *trying* not to get suckered into arguments with people about this thing (key word, trying).
Dffusing the tea tree oil, bought my emergency supply of Tylenol, eucalyptus rub, and cans of chicken soup. It is pretty much inevitable. Unless I stay in a bunker for the next two years -- which I can't because of my life circumstances-- I will get this illness. I plan on fighting it like a champ, regardless of the outcome.
The hard part I'm still trying to figure out is having the difficult convo with my mom about what to do when she gets it. I have to go back to work when we open up. I will bring the virus home. There is nowhere else for her to go, and this is how she's going to die. Will we be sick at the same time? Does she want a ventilator and prolong the inevitable? Or do we just let her go? How will I stand not being in the hospital with her? This is my stress, the thing that scares me.
Earlier this month, Swedish epidemiologist Johan Giesecke claimed in an interview with UnHerd that the UK was wrong to implement its lockdown measures, and singled out Professor Neil Ferguson’s Imperial study for being too pessimistic in its prediction of 500k corona deaths. Describing it as “not very good”, Giesecke was surprised it had such an impact on policymakers.
Today we heard from the other side when Freddie Sayers spoke to Prof Ferguson to get his response to the Swedish critique and much else. He said that:
Have you ever thought about that? Haha.
" I've tried to give my judgment to what direction the science point in, there is an open question and countries will take different decisions on how they should move forward. Even the countries which have locked down and there is scientific uncertainty there and I think we have to appreciate that. And I mean, that is why I would not be directly critical of for instance Swedish scientists or even politicans. I think they have made a decision that will have certain consequences but it's understandable how they reached those decisions."
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
2008 Tampa - 2013 Buffalo - 2016 Tampa - 2016 Fenway II
Audioslave 2005 MSG
So I guess de facto because of Corona, but not because of being infected by it.
Any idea what would be the reason for this under-reported figures, Mike?
absurd as it may sound, Sweden is probably more efficiently locked down than NYC.
So what is different between California, Sweden and NJ? In California people travel mostly by car. The car provides a natural barrier for safely breathing. NJ is part of one of the most comprehensive mass transit systems in the world. Anyone who has ever packed onto a NYC subway can imagine how many people you can cram into a circumference of six feet. That’s how the virus got it’s foot into t(e NY region.
I wasn't criticizing Sweden with my comment. I compare a state like Indiana with 800 deaths to Sweden with 2,100. Indiana shutdown for the last four weeks and Sweden stayed open. I would have expected a lot more deaths in Sweden or a lot less in Indiana comparatively. Why was there a difference?
2008 Tampa - 2013 Buffalo - 2016 Tampa - 2016 Fenway II
Audioslave 2005 MSG