Prepare for the mother of all s**t storms if Sweden pulls this off
If Sweden, which has not locked down its economy and society, emerges with a death toll from COVID-19 that is somewhere in the middle of the pack of European countries, there is going to be a lot of recrimination, particularly against those who have tried to silence any discussion about the true extent of the threat that COVID-19 actually poses
In a word: Sweden. What happens if they pull this off? What happens if it turns out that we could have coped with COVID-19 without collapsing entire sectors of the economy putting millions on the dole, and imposing some of the most draconian restrictions on civil liberties in living memory?
Sweden has not closed the bars. Shopping malls are open. Schools and companies are open too. There are some restrictions such as on gatherings of over 50 people. But, in comparison with most European countries, life in Sweden is relatively normal.
Right now, Sweden's death rate from coronavirus is 33 per million of the population. In France it is 83. In Italy it is 230. In Britain it is 43. In the Netherlands it is 78.
/.../
What is interesting though, is that precisely because it is Sweden, the usual suspects in our politics who benefit from disillusionment with the establishment may find it hard to profit from this. The Swedish government is led by Stefan Loeven, a Social Democrat.
Sweden is practically a role model for mainstream, left of centre politics. If you're a European populist, it's going to be more than a little incongruous to start singing the praises of Sweden, of all countries.
Similarly in America. Donald Trump has, albeit reluctantly, broadly followed the lockdown policies we see across most of Europe. Unless he very quickly does a 180 degree turn (and don't rule that out) how can he profit from his usual disdain for the way things are done by the establishment?
That said, if this particular "Swedish model" wins the day, someone is going to get it in the neck. The question is, who?
Countries are not “pulling anything off.” NY metro is ground zero (again) because it is the definitive international city. People come and go from anywhere in the world to here. Y’all might recall weeks ago Jose was talking about how the Elmhurst Queens hospital was like a war zone. Why is that? Does elmhurst not know how to “pull it off.” No that has nothing to do with it. Elmhurst happens to have the second largest Chinatown in Queens. I'm willing to bet people came over from Wuhan to Queens. Given the massive density and immensely packed subway system that runs mostly underground, it was game over.
The head of the World Health Organization (WHO) has condemned as "racist" the comments by two French doctors who suggested a vaccine for the coronavirus could be tested in Africa.
"Africa can't and won't be a testing ground for any vaccine," said Director General Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus.
The doctors' remarks during a TV debate sparked outrage, and they were accused of treating Africans like "human guinea pigs".
One of them later issued an apology.
When asked about the doctors' suggestion during the WHO's coronavirus briefing, Dr Tedros became visibly angry, calling it a hangover from the "colonial mentality".
"It was a disgrace, appalling, to hear during the 21st Century, to hear from scientists, that kind of remark. We condemn this in the strongest terms possible, and we assure you that this will not happen," he said.
As the number of confirmed cases in Africa continues to rise, some governments are imposing stricter measures to try to slow the spread of the virus. Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta has banned all travel in and out of the capital, Nairobi, and three other large towns for three weeks.
What did the doctors say?
During a debate on French TV channel LCI, Camille Locht, head of research at Inserm health research group, was talking about a vaccine trial in Europe and Australia.
Jean-Paul Mira, head of intensive care at Cochin hospital in Paris, then said: "If I can be provocative, shouldn't we be doing this study in Africa, where there are no masks, no treatments, no resuscitation?
"A bit like it is done elsewhere for some studies on Aids. In prostitutes, we try things because we know that they are highly exposed and that they do not protect themselves."
Mr Locht nodded in agreement at this suggestion, and said: "You are right. We are in the process of thinking about a study in parallel in Africa."
Dr Mira had earlier questioned whether the study would work as planned on healthcare workers in Australia and Europe because they had access to personal protective equipment (PPE) while working.
Media captionCoronavirus in Africa: Debunking fake news and myths around Covid-19
The show sparked widespread anger, including from former footballer Didier Drogba, who called the comments "deeply racist". He added: "Do not take African people as human guinea pigs! It’s absolutely disgusting".
Fellow former footballer Samuel Eto’o called the doctors "murderers".
The doctors' comments have also fuelled existing fears in Africa that African people will be used as guinea pigs for a new coronavirus vaccine.
Coronavirus centres have been targeted in African countries - most recently, a facility that was under construction in Abidjan in Ivory Coast was attacked and destroyed by protesters.
Footage posted on social media showed people tearing the centre apart with their bare hands, and smashing construction materials on the ground.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
The theory in the Netherlands is dat if you let it grow slowly more and more people get infected and not 100% will die. So whoever is infected is most likely to be immune. Untill now we still have the science on our side. Not much different to Sweden except that we closed all bars and services which requires fysical contact. We cannot have a lockdown with soldiers marching in the street. Last time was 1940-1945 and since then we changed so hard as a country. Maybe to free of mind to some but militairy force is also not strong enough to march the streets. You need to invade us otherwise we will not accept it. So our goverment choose... Herd Immunity as a solution to the answer despice some experts would rather see us lockdowned.
The numbers are in our favor, but maybe we do not test enough. That is the mayor problem, we don't test enough. With testing like South Korea you can search out those who are immune and those who aren't and those who are very infectious.
But nobody has the answer, untill now it is still not a Zombie breakout. If millions are dying i would be the first one to take these words back but even in Africa, India or China it is not killing people in millions as everybody is thinking right now. Alright,, the USA, Spain and Italy are hard strucked but not 100% of the country is striked by it.
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The theory in the Netherlands is dat if you let it grow slowly more and more people get infected and not 100% will die. So whoever is infected is most likely to be immune. Untill now we still have the science on our side. Not much different to Sweden except that we closed all bars and services which requires fysical contact. We cannot have a lockdown with soldiers marching in the street. Last time was 1940-1945 and since then we changed so hard as a country. Maybe to free of mind to some but militairy force is also not strong enough to march the streets. You need to invade us otherwise we will not accept it. So our goverment choose... Herd Immunity as a solution to the answer despice some experts would rather see us lockdowned.
The numbers are in our favor, but maybe we do not test enough. That is the mayor problem, we don't test enough. With testing like South Korea you can search out those who are immune and those who aren't and those who are very infectious.
But nobody has the answer, untill now it is still not a Zombie breakout. If millions are dying i would be the first one to take these words back but even in Africa, India or China it is not killing people in millions as everybody is thinking right now. Alright,, the USA, Spain and Italy are hard strucked but not 100% of the country is striked by it.
Well, if immunity is a thing with this virus which every expert are sure of due to it being another corona-virus, then herd immunity will be reached. Either from enough people getting the virus or through a vaccine in 18 months or longer. Maybe treatments will come that can "replace" a vaccine for 18 months, but if not, how will society survive with this coming back in the fall etc? Do another strict lockdown?
In Sweden it would never be considered to put our military in the streets, it is defacto impossible to order the military to be used against our own citizens (Since the tragedy in Ådalen 1931 which @rgambs is now reading up on).
Speaking of South Korea, with them stopping it so effectively they should also have very little immunity in society (according to Swedish expert) which makes them start on zero with the same problem in the fall when the virus is expected to strike again.
Masstesting will come to see how much this has actually spread through our communities. How much immunity that exist in society. Then we can see if there will be a difference between e.g. South Korea and the Netherlands.
With spring now coming and the sun being out, I would think that further restrictions will come here in Sweden to keep this under control. A bigger enforcement on restaurants to keep patrons apart etc.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Prepare for the mother of all s**t storms if Sweden pulls this off
If Sweden, which has not locked down its economy and society, emerges with a death toll from COVID-19 that is somewhere in the middle of the pack of European countries, there is going to be a lot of recrimination, particularly against those who have tried to silence any discussion about the true extent of the threat that COVID-19 actually poses
In a word: Sweden. What happens if they pull this off? What happens if it turns out that we could have coped with COVID-19 without collapsing entire sectors of the economy putting millions on the dole, and imposing some of the most draconian restrictions on civil liberties in living memory?
Sweden has not closed the bars. Shopping malls are open. Schools and companies are open too. There are some restrictions such as on gatherings of over 50 people. But, in comparison with most European countries, life in Sweden is relatively normal.
Right now, Sweden's death rate from coronavirus is 33 per million of the population. In France it is 83. In Italy it is 230. In Britain it is 43. In the Netherlands it is 78.
/.../
What is interesting though, is that precisely because it is Sweden, the usual suspects in our politics who benefit from disillusionment with the establishment may find it hard to profit from this. The Swedish government is led by Stefan Loeven, a Social Democrat.
Sweden is practically a role model for mainstream, left of centre politics. If you're a European populist, it's going to be more than a little incongruous to start singing the praises of Sweden, of all countries.
Similarly in America. Donald Trump has, albeit reluctantly, broadly followed the lockdown policies we see across most of Europe. Unless he very quickly does a 180 degree turn (and don't rule that out) how can he profit from his usual disdain for the way things are done by the establishment?
That said, if this particular "Swedish model" wins the day, someone is going to get it in the neck. The question is, who?
Countries are not “pulling anything off.” NY metro is ground zero (again) because it is the definitive international city. People come and go from anywhere in the world to here. Y’all might recall weeks ago Jose was talking about how the Elmhurst Queens hospital was like a war zone. Why is that? Does elmhurst not know how to “pull it off.” No that has nothing to do with it. Elmhurst happens to have the second largest Chinatown in Queens. I'm willing to bet people came over from Wuhan to Queens. Given the massive density and immensely packed subway system that runs mostly underground, it was game over.
Countries around the world can still be regarded as "pulling it off".
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority. The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority. The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
Sweden is advising social distancing. I don't know where you are getting your information from.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority. The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
Sweden is advising social distancing. I don't know where you are getting your information from.
I guess I need to clarify, social distancing for all ages. I would also point out that where many countries have closed non-essential businesses like pubs, they don't have soldiers in the streets for enforcement, like you keep implying.
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority. The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
Sweden is advising social distancing. I don't know where you are getting your information from.
I guess I need to clarify, social distancing for all ages. I would also point out that where many countries have closed non-essential businesses like pubs, they don't have soldiers in the streets for enforcement, like you keep implying.
They are advising on social distancing for all ages.
I am not implying countries are having soldiers in the streets for enforcement.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority. The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
Sweden is advising social distancing. I don't know where you are getting your information from.
I guess I need to clarify, social distancing for all ages. I would also point out that where many countries have closed non-essential businesses like pubs, they don't have soldiers in the streets for enforcement, like you keep implying.
They are advising on social distancing for all ages.
I am not implying countries are having soldiers in the streets for enforcement.
You keep mentioning it as the alternative to Sweden's current path, as though there is no middle ground, wherein businesses are asked to close without forceful intervention.
You can't "advise social distancing" to little kids, they aren't capable of complying. That's why schools get closed, because the little booger goblins share chapstick and wipe their noses with their palms and cough/sneeze/vomit/fart/burp at will without attempt to isolate or contain.
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
There are four ways this virus gets under control: acquire herd immunity globally, acquire herd immunity in countries which close their doors to countries not adhering to rules (or scrutinize on entry), produce a vaccine for the virus, or eliminate all cases of it.
Transmissibility of a disease is inversely proportional to the mitigation risks of the society. As more are put in place, the effective transmissibility decreases as the exposure (opportunities to transmit) go down. With the transmissibility of this disease as high as it is, Sweden risks needing all of their ventilators and then some, and also jeopardize the other global efforts to pursue elimination (or 'Squash the curve' as I've heard it referred to) - this of course in addition to the obvious risk it's introducing to the people themselves. I'd also be surprised if this doesn't lead to isolation as countries refuse Swedish travellers while this issue exists. At that point, maybe then the ability to have a pint at the bar won't have seemed worth it.
For the sake of human lives, I genuinely hope I'm wrong and that you can smugly come back here and praise Giesecke for being right all along.
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Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority. The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
Sweden is advising social distancing. I don't know where you are getting your information from.
I guess I need to clarify, social distancing for all ages. I would also point out that where many countries have closed non-essential businesses like pubs, they don't have soldiers in the streets for enforcement, like you keep implying.
They are advising on social distancing for all ages.
I am not implying countries are having soldiers in the streets for enforcement.
You keep mentioning it as the alternative to Sweden's current path, as though there is no middle ground, wherein businesses are asked to close without forceful intervention.
You can't "advise social distancing" to little kids, they aren't capable of complying. That's why schools get closed, because the little booger goblins share chapstick and wipe their noses with their palms and cough/sneeze/vomit/fart/burp at will without attempt to isolate or contain.
I have not mentioned it as an alternative to Swedens "current path" or as if there "is not middle ground". I have not seen any reports of the military gunning down citizens in any country? Or are you saying that I claim that I have?
And Sweden's "current path" is that kids are to be home if showing symptons based on studies showing closing schools at the present situation have marginal effect and weighing that marginal effect against 20-25% of the healthcare workforce disappearing if schools are being closed (which affects public health) and I guess, kids education being affected. Also basing it on studies showing that when schools open again after a strict lockdown, the peaks have a risk of becoming even more severe than what they would have been if not closing.
The actions are based on science and trying to weigh all options to ensure the best public health. And closing down society completely if it is not the best current action is worse for the public health - according to the PHA.
Right or wrong. We do still advice on social distancing, to have our health care cope with the situation. Which it at the present is. If there are suddenly signs of gigantic outbreaks sourced from farting and burping chapstick-sharing goblins - I'm certain the PHA would act on it.
And as I've stated on this page - I believe further restrictions will be advised because the weather and the sun will make swedes go bananas and start being Joe Biden-touchy touchy in public and at outdoor seatings.
EDIT: Have not seen the PHA bring it up. but GODEXPERT Giesecke mentioned in China there were no signs of child-to-grownup spread being a major factor.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority. The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
Sweden is advising social distancing. I don't know where you are getting your information from.
I guess I need to clarify, social distancing for all ages. I would also point out that where many countries have closed non-essential businesses like pubs, they don't have soldiers in the streets for enforcement, like you keep implying.
They are advising on social distancing for all ages.
I am not implying countries are having soldiers in the streets for enforcement.
You keep mentioning it as the alternative to Sweden's current path, as though there is no middle ground, wherein businesses are asked to close without forceful intervention.
You can't "advise social distancing" to little kids, they aren't capable of complying. That's why schools get closed, because the little booger goblins share chapstick and wipe their noses with their palms and cough/sneeze/vomit/fart/burp at will without attempt to isolate or contain.
I have not mentioned it as an alternative to Swedens "current path" or as if there "is not middle ground". I have not seen any reports of the military gunning down citizens in any country? Or are you saying that I claim that I have?
And Sweden's "current path" is that kids are to be home if showing symptons based on studies showing closing schools at the present situation have marginal effect and weighing that marginal effect against 20-25% of the healthcare workforce disappearing if schools are being closed (which affects public health) and I guess, kids education being affected. Also basing it on studies showing that when schools open again after a strict lockdown, the peaks have a risk of becoming even more severe than what they would have been if not closing.
The actions are based on science and trying to weigh all options to ensure the best public health. And closing down society completely if it is not the best current action is worse for the public health - according to the PHA.
Right or wrong. We do still advice on social distancing, to have our health care cope with the situation. Which it at the present is. If there are suddenly signs of gigantic outbreaks sourced from farting and burping chapstick-sharing goblins - I'm certain the PHA would act on it.
And as I've stated on this page - I believe further restrictions will be advised because the weather and the sun will make swedes go bananas and start being Joe Biden-touchy touchy in public and at outdoor seatings.
EDIT: Have not seen the PHA bring it up. but GODEXPERT Giesecke mentioned in China there were no signs of child-to-grownup spread being a major factor.
You are seriously overstating the conclusivity of studies in this field.
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority. The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
Sweden is advising social distancing. I don't know where you are getting your information from.
I guess I need to clarify, social distancing for all ages. I would also point out that where many countries have closed non-essential businesses like pubs, they don't have soldiers in the streets for enforcement, like you keep implying.
They are advising on social distancing for all ages.
I am not implying countries are having soldiers in the streets for enforcement.
You keep mentioning it as the alternative to Sweden's current path, as though there is no middle ground, wherein businesses are asked to close without forceful intervention.
You can't "advise social distancing" to little kids, they aren't capable of complying. That's why schools get closed, because the little booger goblins share chapstick and wipe their noses with their palms and cough/sneeze/vomit/fart/burp at will without attempt to isolate or contain.
I have not mentioned it as an alternative to Swedens "current path" or as if there "is not middle ground". I have not seen any reports of the military gunning down citizens in any country? Or are you saying that I claim that I have?
And Sweden's "current path" is that kids are to be home if showing symptons based on studies showing closing schools at the present situation have marginal effect and weighing that marginal effect against 20-25% of the healthcare workforce disappearing if schools are being closed (which affects public health) and I guess, kids education being affected. Also basing it on studies showing that when schools open again after a strict lockdown, the peaks have a risk of becoming even more severe than what they would have been if not closing.
The actions are based on science and trying to weigh all options to ensure the best public health. And closing down society completely if it is not the best current action is worse for the public health - according to the PHA.
Right or wrong. We do still advice on social distancing, to have our health care cope with the situation. Which it at the present is. If there are suddenly signs of gigantic outbreaks sourced from farting and burping chapstick-sharing goblins - I'm certain the PHA would act on it.
And as I've stated on this page - I believe further restrictions will be advised because the weather and the sun will make swedes go bananas and start being Joe Biden-touchy touchy in public and at outdoor seatings.
EDIT: Have not seen the PHA bring it up. but GODEXPERT Giesecke mentioned in China there were no signs of child-to-grownup spread being a major factor.
You are seriously overstating the conclusivity of studies in this field.
This is, in fact, the first time we have quarantined healthy people rather than quarantining the sick and vulnerable. As Fredrik Erixon, the director of the European Centre for International Political Economy in Brussels, wrote in The Spectator (U.K.) last week: “The theory of lockdown, after all, is pretty niche, deeply illiberal — and, until now, untested. It’s not Sweden that’s conducting a mass experiment. It’s everyone else.”
We’ve posed these simple questions to many highly trained infectious-disease doctors, epidemiologists, mathematical disease-modelers, and other smart, educated professionals. It turns out that, while you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict a person of theft and throw them in jail, you don’t need any actual evidence (much less proof) to put millions of people into a highly invasive and burdensome lockdown with no end in sight and nothing to prevent the lockdown from being reimposed at the whim of public-health officials. Is this rational?
/.../
Sweden has courageously decided not to endorse a harsh quarantine, and consequently it hasn’t forced its residents into lockdown. “The strategy in Sweden is to focus on social distancing among the known risk groups, like the elderly. We try to use evidence-based measurements,” Emma Frans, a doctor in epidemiology at Sweden’s Karolinska Institute, told Euronews. “We try to adjust everyday life. The Swedish plan is to implement measurements that you can practice for a long time.”
The problem with lockdowns is that “you tire the system out,” Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s chief epidemiologist, told the Guardian. “You can’t keep a lockdown going for months — it’s impossible.” He told Britain’s Daily Mail: “We can’t kill all our services. And unemployed people are a great threat to public health. It’s a factor you need to think about.”
/.../
Sweden is developing herd immunity by refusing to panic. By not requiring social isolation, Sweden’s young people spread the virus, mostly asymptomatically, as is supposed to happen in a normal flu season. They will generate protective antibodies that make it harder and harder for the Wuhan virus to reach and infect the frail and elderly who have serious underlying conditions. For perspective, the current COVID-19 death rate in Sweden (40 deaths per million of population) is substantially lower than the Swedish death rate in a normal flu season (in 2018, for instance, about 80 per million of population).
Compare that with the situation to Switzerland, a similar small European country, which has 8.5 million people. Switzerland is practicing strict social isolation. Yet Switzerland reports 715 cumulative Wuhan-virus deaths as of today, for a death rate nearly double the number in Sweden. What about Norway, another Nordic country that shares a 1,000-mile open border with Sweden, with a language and culture very similar to Sweden’s? Norway (population 5.4 million) has fewer reported COVID-19 deaths (71) than Sweden but a substantially higher rate of coronavirus ICU admissions.
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The head of the World Health Organization (WHO) has condemned as "racist" the comments by two French doctors who suggested a vaccine for the coronavirus could be tested in Africa.
"Africa can't and won't be a testing ground for any vaccine," said Director General Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus.
The doctors' remarks during a TV debate sparked outrage, and they were accused of treating Africans like "human guinea pigs".
One of them later issued an apology.
When asked about the doctors' suggestion during the WHO's coronavirus briefing, Dr Tedros became visibly angry, calling it a hangover from the "colonial mentality".
"It was a disgrace, appalling, to hear during the 21st Century, to hear from scientists, that kind of remark. We condemn this in the strongest terms possible, and we assure you that this will not happen," he said.
As the number of confirmed cases in Africa continues to rise, some governments are imposing stricter measures to try to slow the spread of the virus. Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta has banned all travel in and out of the capital, Nairobi, and three other large towns for three weeks.
What did the doctors say?
During a debate on French TV channel LCI, Camille Locht, head of research at Inserm health research group, was talking about a vaccine trial in Europe and Australia.
Jean-Paul Mira, head of intensive care at Cochin hospital in Paris, then said: "If I can be provocative, shouldn't we be doing this study in Africa, where there are no masks, no treatments, no resuscitation?
"A bit like it is done elsewhere for some studies on Aids. In prostitutes, we try things because we know that they are highly exposed and that they do not protect themselves."
Mr Locht nodded in agreement at this suggestion, and said: "You are right. We are in the process of thinking about a study in parallel in Africa."
Dr Mira had earlier questioned whether the study would work as planned on healthcare workers in Australia and Europe because they had access to personal protective equipment (PPE) while working.
Media captionCoronavirus in Africa: Debunking fake news and myths around Covid-19
The show sparked widespread anger, including from former footballer Didier Drogba, who called the comments "deeply racist". He added: "Do not take African people as human guinea pigs! It’s absolutely disgusting".
Fellow former footballer Samuel Eto’o called the doctors "murderers".
The doctors' comments have also fuelled existing fears in Africa that African people will be used as guinea pigs for a new coronavirus vaccine.
Coronavirus centres have been targeted in African countries - most recently, a facility that was under construction in Abidjan in Ivory Coast was attacked and destroyed by protesters.
Footage posted on social media showed people tearing the centre apart with their bare hands, and smashing construction materials on the ground.
Ok this is interesting as it shows how incomplete information quickly leads to misinformation.
They’re talking about BCG a tuberculosis vaccine widely used in France that is suspected to have a protective effect vs Covid19 during the first 4-7 years.
Studies have already started in France, Netherlands and Australia.
The doctor suggested that Africa should participate on a wide scale as they’re lacking protective devices against the virus.
Every children in the country have been vaccinated until 2007 with no side effects or known issues. It’s not using africans as human guinea pigs it’s just common sense.
Add a poorly formulated sentence, a pinch of ignorance, edited videos and a bunch of braying crowd joiners and get a controversy.
Not saying that Africa « has to » but I hope a couple of countries will give it a try.
Who would have expected the Swede to be coming forward with the Libertarian argument lol Good luck to you and all of Sweden!
Well, he is right isn't he? We contain the healthy working people to keep old people safe. Rather then to secure the old and weak and those who are fysically not well. It is simple math. Now everybody is ruining the economics to its bottom except.... guess what... China.. Why are we that blind. They have the turning point in there hands. China is now in command of economic relief for those who are searching for a solution. If those billion Chinese are running around the world and Northwest Europe is the last stronghold, remember this thread. I warned you..
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Who would have expected the Swede to be coming forward with the Libertarian argument lol Good luck to you and all of Sweden!
Well, he is right isn't he? We contain the healthy working people to keep old people safe. Rather then to secure the old and weak and those who are fysically not well. It is simple math. Now everybody is ruining the economics to its bottom except.... guess what... China.. Why are we that blind. They have the turning point in there hands. China is now in command of economic relief for those who are searching for a solution. If those billion Chinese are running around the world and Northwest Europe is the last stronghold, remember this thread. I warned you..
Um, no, not right. The elderly aren't the only people that die, first of all. Second, you know what's really bad for an economy? A bunch of dead people. There is a paper forthcoming about the 1918 flu pandemic that shows the economy performed better in 1919-1920 in cities with strict social distancing controls... because dead people don't drive the economy forward, and people were ready to take financial risks and start/resume business sooner.
The rest of your post just seems pretty paranoid, the economic issues with China are more complicated than all that, they depend on the world as much as the world depends on them. We can live without cheap plastic junk, but without cheap plastic junk to manufacture, they have hundreds of millions of people who approach starvation. We rely on China too much for essentials, like medicine, and they own too much of our debt, but it isn't in their interest to rock the boat any more than it is in ours.
My 83 year old cousin just succumbed to this in that way. His heart just stopped beating. We are still getting details but from what we know he was sick for a week and his heart just stopped. He did have Covid.
My 83 year old cousin just succumbed to this in that way. His heart just stopped beating. We are still getting details but from what we know he was sick for a week and his heart just stopped. He did have Covid.
My 83 year old cousin just succumbed to this in that way. His heart just stopped beating. We are still getting details but from what we know he was sick for a week and his heart just stopped. He did have Covid.
Let's emphasize a difference here, in e.g. Sweden (which people on here are bagging on regarding the response to the virus) - the government is basing their decisions and acting on the expertise of the Public Health Authority -- the Swedish madman model of having experts lead the charge basing actions on science instead of politics and loons (Trump) unproven ideas (remember that both Denmark and Norway went against their experts advice on closing schools and borders). Whether better or not than throwing a dart at the wall in isolated instances, 97 times out a 100 bet on science. I say.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
"When you ask about the inner circle, it is clear to me," Costa told MSNBC's "Morning Joe," "based on my reporting, that Peter Navarro, more than anyone now, whether it's on urging the president to take a position that's different than Dr. [Anthony] Fauci, or when it comes to the Defense Production Act, nudging corporations, sometimes pushing corporations to do what the White House wants, that Navarro is at the center."
"Jared Kushner is there and he's really being a liaison to different donors, to different corporate allies of this administration, which has created confusion about the chain of command, about whether corporations should work through Jared, whether they should work through Vice President [Mike] Pence and the task force," he added.
Navarro and other Trump advisers, including Rudy Giuliani, have been overriding medical experts on the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus, and Costa said the president's confidence in that unproven drug was not matched by science.
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority. The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
Sweden is advising social distancing. I don't know where you are getting your information from.
I guess I need to clarify, social distancing for all ages. I would also point out that where many countries have closed non-essential businesses like pubs, they don't have soldiers in the streets for enforcement, like you keep implying.
They are advising on social distancing for all ages.
I am not implying countries are having soldiers in the streets for enforcement.
You keep mentioning it as the alternative to Sweden's current path, as though there is no middle ground, wherein businesses are asked to close without forceful intervention.
You can't "advise social distancing" to little kids, they aren't capable of complying. That's why schools get closed, because the little booger goblins share chapstick and wipe their noses with their palms and cough/sneeze/vomit/fart/burp at will without attempt to isolate or contain.
simpke really. look at known cases of the 3 nordic countries, look at testing %, then look at number of deaths.
by those metrics, Ohio with just over 4k known, 144 dead overall population 11million.
Sweden 7k and change known infected, 400 and change dead, overall population 10 or so million.......
which location has done what in regards to mitigation......
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
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My 83 year old cousin just succumbed to this in that way. His heart just stopped beating. We are still getting details but from what we know he was sick for a week and his heart just stopped. He did have Covid.
My 83 year old cousin just succumbed to this in that way. His heart just stopped beating. We are still getting details but from what we know he was sick for a week and his heart just stopped. He did have Covid.
Comments
I don't watch any videos posted on here. Don't have the time to watch something when I could read it instead.
However, I think this is a response:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-52192184
The head of the World Health Organization (WHO) has condemned as "racist" the comments by two French doctors who suggested a vaccine for the coronavirus could be tested in Africa.
"Africa can't and won't be a testing ground for any vaccine," said Director General Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus.
The doctors' remarks during a TV debate sparked outrage, and they were accused of treating Africans like "human guinea pigs".
One of them later issued an apology.
When asked about the doctors' suggestion during the WHO's coronavirus briefing, Dr Tedros became visibly angry, calling it a hangover from the "colonial mentality".
"It was a disgrace, appalling, to hear during the 21st Century, to hear from scientists, that kind of remark. We condemn this in the strongest terms possible, and we assure you that this will not happen," he said.
As the number of confirmed cases in Africa continues to rise, some governments are imposing stricter measures to try to slow the spread of the virus. Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta has banned all travel in and out of the capital, Nairobi, and three other large towns for three weeks.
What did the doctors say?
During a debate on French TV channel LCI, Camille Locht, head of research at Inserm health research group, was talking about a vaccine trial in Europe and Australia.
Jean-Paul Mira, head of intensive care at Cochin hospital in Paris, then said: "If I can be provocative, shouldn't we be doing this study in Africa, where there are no masks, no treatments, no resuscitation?
"A bit like it is done elsewhere for some studies on Aids. In prostitutes, we try things because we know that they are highly exposed and that they do not protect themselves."
Mr Locht nodded in agreement at this suggestion, and said: "You are right. We are in the process of thinking about a study in parallel in Africa."
Dr Mira had earlier questioned whether the study would work as planned on healthcare workers in Australia and Europe because they had access to personal protective equipment (PPE) while working.
The show sparked widespread anger, including from former footballer Didier Drogba, who called the comments "deeply racist". He added: "Do not take African people as human guinea pigs! It’s absolutely disgusting".
Fellow former footballer Samuel Eto’o called the doctors "murderers".
The doctors' comments have also fuelled existing fears in Africa that African people will be used as guinea pigs for a new coronavirus vaccine.
Coronavirus centres have been targeted in African countries - most recently, a facility that was under construction in Abidjan in Ivory Coast was attacked and destroyed by protesters.
Footage posted on social media showed people tearing the centre apart with their bare hands, and smashing construction materials on the ground.
So our goverment choose... Herd Immunity as a solution to the answer despice some experts would rather see us lockdowned.
The numbers are in our favor, but maybe we do not test enough.
That is the mayor problem, we don't test enough. With testing like South Korea you can search out those who are immune and those who aren't and those who are very infectious.
But nobody has the answer, untill now it is still not a Zombie breakout. If millions are dying i would be the first one to take these words back but even in Africa, India or China it is not killing people in millions as everybody is thinking right now. Alright,, the USA, Spain and Italy are hard strucked but not 100% of the country is striked by it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2020/mar/27/i-shook-hands-with-everybody-says-boris-johnson-weeks-before-coronavirus-diagnosis-video
In Sweden it would never be considered to put our military in the streets, it is defacto impossible to order the military to be used against our own citizens (Since the tragedy in Ådalen 1931 which @rgambs is now reading up on).
Speaking of South Korea, with them stopping it so effectively they should also have very little immunity in society (according to Swedish expert) which makes them start on zero with the same problem in the fall when the virus is expected to strike again.
Masstesting will come to see how much this has actually spread through our communities. How much immunity that exist in society. Then we can see if there will be a difference between e.g. South Korea and the Netherlands.
With spring now coming and the sun being out, I would think that further restrictions will come here in Sweden to keep this under control. A bigger enforcement on restaurants to keep patrons apart etc.
***
Jared Kushner has coordinated distribution of medical supplies with Republican donors: report
https://www.salon.com/2020/04/06/jared-kushner-has-coordinated-distribution-of-medical-supplies-with-republican-donors-report_partner/
The fact remains, social distancing to flatten the curve IS the advice of the vast majority of experts around the world. Sweden is an outlier, not because it listens to it's experts more, but because it's experts are offering very different opinions from the majority.
The "we listen to our experts, not political pressure" line is just marketing spin.
I would also point out that where many countries have closed non-essential businesses like pubs, they don't have soldiers in the streets for enforcement, like you keep implying.
I am not implying countries are having soldiers in the streets for enforcement.
You can't "advise social distancing" to little kids, they aren't capable of complying. That's why schools get closed, because the little booger goblins share chapstick and wipe their noses with their palms and cough/sneeze/vomit/fart/burp at will without attempt to isolate or contain.
Transmissibility of a disease is inversely proportional to the mitigation risks of the society. As more are put in place, the effective transmissibility decreases as the exposure (opportunities to transmit) go down. With the transmissibility of this disease as high as it is, Sweden risks needing all of their ventilators and then some, and also jeopardize the other global efforts to pursue elimination (or 'Squash the curve' as I've heard it referred to) - this of course in addition to the obvious risk it's introducing to the people themselves. I'd also be surprised if this doesn't lead to isolation as countries refuse Swedish travellers while this issue exists. At that point, maybe then the ability to have a pint at the bar won't have seemed worth it.
For the sake of human lives, I genuinely hope I'm wrong and that you can smugly come back here and praise Giesecke for being right all along.
EV
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And Sweden's "current path" is that kids are to be home if showing symptons based on studies showing closing schools at the present situation have marginal effect and weighing that marginal effect against 20-25% of the healthcare workforce disappearing if schools are being closed (which affects public health) and I guess, kids education being affected. Also basing it on studies showing that when schools open again after a strict lockdown, the peaks have a risk of becoming even more severe than what they would have been if not closing.
The actions are based on science and trying to weigh all options to ensure the best public health. And closing down society completely if it is not the best current action is worse for the public health - according to the PHA.
Right or wrong. We do still advice on social distancing, to have our health care cope with the situation. Which it at the present is. If there are suddenly signs of gigantic outbreaks sourced from farting and burping chapstick-sharing goblins - I'm certain the PHA would act on it.
And as I've stated on this page - I believe further restrictions will be advised because the weather and the sun will make swedes go bananas and start being Joe Biden-touchy touchy in public and at outdoor seatings.
EDIT: Have not seen the PHA bring it up. but GODEXPERT Giesecke mentioned in China there were no signs of child-to-grownup spread being a major factor.
/.../
/.../
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/coronavirus-response-sweden-avoids-isolation-economic-ruin/
Good luck to you and all of Sweden!
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Studies have already started in France, Netherlands and Australia.
Every children in the country have been vaccinated until 2007 with no side effects or known issues. It’s not using africans as human guinea pigs it’s just common sense.
Not saying that Africa « has to » but I hope a couple of countries will give it a try.
Now everybody is ruining the economics to its bottom except.... guess what... China.. Why are we that blind.
They have the turning point in there hands. China is now in command of economic relief for those who are searching for a solution.
If those billion Chinese are running around the world and Northwest Europe is the last stronghold, remember this thread.
I warned you..
There is a paper forthcoming about the 1918 flu pandemic that shows the economy performed better in 1919-1920 in cities with strict social distancing controls... because dead people don't drive the economy forward, and people were ready to take financial risks and start/resume business sooner.
The rest of your post just seems pretty paranoid, the economic issues with China are more complicated than all that, they depend on the world as much as the world depends on them. We can live without cheap plastic junk, but without cheap plastic junk to manufacture, they have hundreds of millions of people who approach starvation.
We rely on China too much for essentials, like medicine, and they own too much of our debt, but it isn't in their interest to rock the boat any more than it is in ours.
We are still getting details but from what we know he was sick for a week and his heart just stopped. He did have Covid.
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14