Was watching the TV show The Neighborhood and the mom was over who is old school and says offensive things. When did Grease Monkey become an offensive term? I always thought it to be one who turns wrenches in a garage, a gear head is another term. I knew friends that said that as a badge of honor.
Interesting to see this thread come back up. I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it. My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well. i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers.
Interesting to see this thread come back up. I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it. My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well. i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers.
I believe it was Chris Rock that said , "even if it's in a song, you should never say it." Whereas other artists are ok if you are cool w them, your friends w them.
Now I have seen Millennials say never say it and then I have seen millennials that will sing it. It is a mixed bag still.
The fact that Michael Che still says "The N word" on SNL should hold some weight. I'm sure he is asked to not say the full word but still, it sets a precedent.
I have seen BustaRhymes watch videos of fans doing his songs and he credits the white ones for editing the raps when they do them.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
Interesting to see this thread come back up. I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it. My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well. i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers.
One of the coolest songs ever that brought black and whites closer together is linked below. I appreciate the efforts of younger generations to eliminate racism, but I personally think that in some ways, they've taken the wrong track. This song is cool, it unites, it was written by a black dude, and if I could sing better than I do, I would not change a single word. Take it, Sly!
Edit: And don't get me wrong. I neither offend people by singing in public nor by using the "n word" outside of verbally using it in quotes (so to speak) in a certain context and with people I know with whom it will not cause offense. For example, I have said to my wife, "What do you think about the controversy over using the word "[n-word]"?" See? With her, I used the real word. Here, I used "[n-word]".
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Interesting to see this thread come back up. I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it. My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well. i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers.
I posted this on the last page, but it’s particularly relevant for this question
Interesting to see this thread come back up. I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it. My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well. i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers.
In music or literature the word has its place for a variety of reasons. I still wouldn’t sing or say it out loud
the word can still have it’s intended effect without you audibly repeating it.
However I will say using descriptors like “n word” and everyone still knows what you are saying. It’s like when my kids substitute “frick” for the f word. I know what they meant and if the intent was to swear using an alternative doesn’t make it ok either. Using a less offensive derivative doesn’t automatically change the intent. Who uses it and intent of those who can use the word is important.
For a word with a history as that, I really don’t know how you are even supposed to describe it as context and race makes it tricky. Ultimately it’s up to the community it most offends to decide and there are varying opinions there. It’s absolutely not up to me
do people say "n-word" in context like saying "frick" though? if so, yeah, thats the same thing, but I've never heard people do that.
All I’m saying is it’s context. You can say or quote something and replace it with “n word” instead of the real word it doesn’t necessarily make it ok. It’s all pretty situational
im not comfortable saying African American because I don’t think “American” needs a qualifier. It’s Black. I’m just American. I’m not Scottish american or Swedish American or whatever. I’m white
I have some friends who prefer African American and some who prefer black so if I need to use a descriptive in a conversation I use what they prefer. Kind of like pronouns
I don’t think anything has 100 percent defined rules besides don’t say the N word if you are white. Period
do people say "n-word" in context like saying "frick" though? if so, yeah, thats the same thing, but I've never heard people do that.
All I’m saying is it’s context. You can say or quote something and replace it with “n word” instead of the real word it doesn’t necessarily make it ok. It’s all pretty situational
im not comfortable saying African American because I don’t think “American” needs a qualifier. It’s Black. I’m just American. I’m not Scottish american or Swedish American or whatever. I’m white
I have some friends who prefer African American and some who prefer black so if I need to use a descriptive in a conversation I use what they prefer. Kind of like pronouns
Regarding African-American, I toned down my use of that when I heard someone refer to Nelson Mandela as African American...At the very least I have to know for certain that someone actually is American...
Post edited by OnWis97 on
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do people say "n-word" in context like saying "frick" though? if so, yeah, thats the same thing, but I've never heard people do that.
All I’m saying is it’s context. You can say or quote something and replace it with “n word” instead of the real word it doesn’t necessarily make it ok. It’s all pretty situational
im not comfortable saying African American because I don’t think “American” needs a qualifier. It’s Black. I’m just American. I’m not Scottish american or Swedish American or whatever. I’m white
I have some friends who prefer African American and some who prefer black so if I need to use a descriptive in a conversation I use what they prefer. Kind of like pronouns
Regarding African-American, I toned down my use of that when I heard someone refer to Nelson Mandela as African American...At the very least I have to know for certain that someone actually is American...
Dave matthews is African American. It’s not a race it’s an origin and a very non specific origin. It’s certainly more applicable to him than Nelson Mandela
But yeah it’s absurd to use that term as a blanket description of a race no matter where they are from… but then again some people want to be referred to as such so ok
not to even get into the fact it’s an entire continent of many countries and cultures, and it’s almost like referring to it as a singular country… ie Italian American, Irish American. Those are specific cultures. Africa isn’t. the more you think about it the worse it seems
Interesting to see this thread come back up. I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it. My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well. i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers.
In music or literature the word has its place for a variety of reasons. I still wouldn’t sing or say it out loud
the word can still have it’s intended effect without you audibly repeating it.
However I will say using descriptors like “n word” and everyone still knows what you are saying. It’s like when my kids substitute “frick” for the f word. I know what they meant and if the intent was to swear using an alternative doesn’t make it ok either. Using a less offensive derivative doesn’t automatically change the intent. Who uses it and intent of those who can use the word is important.
For a word with a history as that, I really don’t know how you are even supposed to describe it as context and race makes it tricky. Ultimately it’s up to the community it most offends to decide and there are varying opinions there. It’s absolutely not up to me
My wife and I were recently having a similar discussion about expletives. I think it was George Carlin who said, "Don't kid yourself, your 'shoot' is 'shit'".
All words (of course) are harmless, and it's only the intent of their use that can be damaging. I also find that certain words have a power both in their meaning and/or because of their characteristic onomatopoeia that make them most useful when used judiciously. I've know people who can't say one fucking sentence without using the powerful word "fuck" and it fucking makes me fucking crazy (obvious an over use of the word "fuck"). That's a great word, but is best reserved for situation like when you bash you shin on the coffee table or when you first hear that Donald Trump has won an election.
But, yeah, it gets tricky with racial slurs. Out of respect for the fact that many people find it offensive under any circumstance, I don't say [n-word], I say "n-word". But to be honest, I think our society has gone overboard with that kind of imposed restriction. Why should I be able to refer to a white person as "cracker", "whitey", or "honky", but a black person can't use that term in a none-discriminatory manner (like in a joke or a reference)? To my way of thinking, this kind of word prohibition is taking political correctness to a unnecessary extreme. But then I feel that way about political correctness in general.
I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
True. I think a lot of what’s going on with the n word has to do with reclaiming the word. That’s why white people can’t use it ever. Black people can have the debate internally about when to use it and when not to. Has nothing to do with white people it’s not our word anymore
a white slur is apples and oranges broadly. We haven’t been repressed and we have no need to reclaim any white slurs from a group who oppressed us.
Maybe it’s different with sub groups like Irish or Italian or polish slurs as there are a lot. Sure those communities can use them internally as that’s up to them, but other white people shouldn’t as you can’t fully understand the impact of it. Similar but still not a historical equivalent
Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly. The Amish for example. If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Interesting to see this thread come back up. I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it. My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well. i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers.
I posted this on the last page, but it’s particularly relevant for this question
I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly. The Amish for example. If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.
I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly. The Amish for example. If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.
Who bothers the Amish? They make great stuff!
We had Hutterite colonies where I grew up. Amish with electricity
people always thought they stole from every store they entered. Speaking German amongst themselves didn’t help. Everyone labeled that suspicious. People commonly do that with Spanish speakers too
I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
True. I think a lot of what’s going on with the n word has to do with reclaiming the word. That’s why white people can’t use it ever. Black people can have the debate internally about when to use it and when not to. Has nothing to do with white people it’s not our word anymore
a white slur is apples and oranges broadly. We haven’t been repressed and we have no need to reclaim any white slurs from a group who oppressed us.
Maybe it’s different with sub groups like Irish or Italian or polish slurs as there are a lot. Sure those communities can use them internally as that’s up to them, but other white people shouldn’t as you can’t fully understand the impact of it. Similar but still not a historical equivalent
I used to be in the "if they use it it's ok for us to say it" camp but that's wrong....not a word that we should ever use
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I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly. The Amish for example. If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.
I am sure they deal with a lot of unfair treatment. But it's not really because they're white.
1995 Milwaukee 1998 Alpine, Alpine 2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston 2004 Boston, Boston 2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty) 2011 Alpine, Alpine 2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly. The Amish for example. If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.
I am sure they deal with a lot of unfair treatment. But it's not really because they're white.
Exactly. That’s kind of the point in the larger context of how we view race.
We can see they are a distinct culture within a larger white race. We are quick to be able to separate different elements of white culture and recognise Irish, Amish, polish isn’t the same thing. Black culture is reduced to “African” not the distinct cultures they come from and evolved from. It’s not homogenous
It’s comparing a slur directed at everyone Vs a slur directed at a small group within a larger one. It would make no sense if I used an Irish slur to a German. I can’t even use a white slur properly without at least a basic understanding of their culture. Saying the N word requires none of that. That makes it dehumanising
I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly. The Amish for example. If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.
Who bothers the Amish? They make great stuff!
We had Hutterite colonies where I grew up. Amish with electricity
people always thought they stole from every store they entered. Speaking German amongst themselves didn’t help. Everyone labeled that suspicious. People commonly do that with Spanish speakers too
I believe it
We have Mennonites that fit that description in PA. They are also referred to as Pennsylvania Deutsch.
I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky.
True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly. The Amish for example. If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.
I am sure they deal with a lot of unfair treatment. But it's not really because they're white.
Exactly. That’s kind of the point in the larger context of how we view race.
We can see they are a distinct culture within a larger white race. We are quick to be able to separate different elements of white culture and recognise Irish, Amish, polish isn’t the same thing. Black culture is reduced to “African” not the distinct cultures they come from and evolved from. It’s not homogenous
It’s comparing a slur directed at everyone Vs a slur directed at a small group within a larger one. It would make no sense if I used an Irish slur to a German. I can’t even use a white slur properly without at least a basic understanding of their culture. Saying the N word requires none of that. That makes it dehumanising
wow. excellent post. never thought of it that way.
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
astoria 06
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
The nutritionally-complete Devil's lettuce?
Now I have seen Millennials say never say it and then I have seen millennials that will sing it. It is a mixed bag still.
The fact that Michael Che still says "The N word" on SNL should hold some weight. I'm sure he is asked to not say the full word but still, it sets a precedent.
I have seen BustaRhymes watch videos of fans doing his songs and he credits the white ones for editing the raps when they do them.
https://youtu.be/QO15S3WC9pg
the word can still have it’s intended effect without you audibly repeating it.
For a word with a history as that, I really don’t know how you are even supposed to describe it as context and race makes it tricky. Ultimately it’s up to the community it most offends to decide and there are varying opinions there. It’s absolutely not up to me
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im not comfortable saying African American because I don’t think “American” needs a qualifier. It’s Black. I’m just American. I’m not Scottish american or Swedish American or whatever. I’m white
I have some friends who prefer African American and some who prefer black so if I need to use a descriptive in a conversation I use what they prefer. Kind of like pronouns
I don’t think anything has 100 percent defined rules besides don’t say the N word if you are white. Period
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not to even get into the fact it’s an entire continent of many countries and cultures, and it’s almost like referring to it as a singular country… ie Italian American, Irish American. Those are specific cultures. Africa isn’t. the more you think about it the worse it seems
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My wife and I were recently having a similar discussion about expletives. I think it was George Carlin who said, "Don't kid yourself, your 'shoot' is 'shit'".
I also find that certain words have a power both in their meaning and/or because of their characteristic onomatopoeia that make them most useful when used judiciously. I've know people who can't say one fucking sentence without using the powerful word "fuck" and it fucking makes me fucking crazy (obvious an over use of the word "fuck"). That's a great word, but is best reserved for situation like when you bash you shin on the coffee table or when you first hear that Donald Trump has won an election.
Indeed, lol!
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a white slur is apples and oranges broadly. We haven’t been repressed and we have no need to reclaim any white slurs from a group who oppressed us.
True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly. The Amish for example. If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.
Very well thought out by Coates. He is very witty.
people always thought they stole from every store they entered. Speaking German amongst themselves didn’t help. Everyone labeled that suspicious. People commonly do that with Spanish speakers too
I believe it
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We can see they are a distinct culture within a larger white race. We are quick to be able to separate different elements of white culture and recognise Irish, Amish, polish isn’t the same thing. Black culture is reduced to “African” not the distinct cultures they come from and evolved from. It’s not homogenous
It’s comparing a slur directed at everyone Vs a slur directed at a small group within a larger one. It would make no sense if I used an Irish slur to a German. I can’t even use a white slur properly without at least a basic understanding of their culture. Saying the N word requires none of that. That makes it dehumanising
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