The "N" Word

Tim Simmons

pjhawks said:

Interesting to see this thread come back up.  I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it.  My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well.  i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers. 

I posted this on the last page, but it’s particularly relevant for this question

https://youtu.be/QO15S3WC9pg

Cropduster-80

pjhawks said:

Interesting to see this thread come back up.  I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it.  My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well.  i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers. 

In music or literature the word has its place for a variety of reasons.  I still wouldn’t sing or say it out loud 

the word can still have it’s intended effect without you audibly repeating it.  

However I will say using descriptors like “n word” and everyone still knows what you are saying. It’s like when my kids substitute “frick” for the f word.  I know what they meant and if the intent was to swear using an alternative doesn’t make it ok either. Using a less offensive derivative doesn’t automatically change the intent. Who uses it and intent of those who can use the word is important.

For a word with a history as that, I really don’t know how you are even supposed to describe it as context and race makes it tricky.  Ultimately it’s up to the community it most offends to decide and there are varying opinions there. It’s absolutely not up to me 

Tim Simmons

do people say "n-word" in context like saying "frick" though? if so, yeah, thats the same thing, but I've never heard people do that. 

eeriepadave

I always think of the South Park episode when i hear the word

Cropduster-80

Tim Simmons said:

do people say "n-word" in context like saying "frick" though? if so, yeah, thats the same thing, but I've never heard people do that. 

All I’m saying is it’s context.  You can say or quote something and replace it with “n word” instead of the real word it doesn’t necessarily make it ok. It’s all pretty situational 

im not comfortable saying African American because I don’t think “American” needs a qualifier. It’s Black. I’m just American.  I’m not Scottish american or Swedish American or whatever. I’m white 

I have some friends who prefer African American and some who prefer black so if I need to use a descriptive in a conversation I use what they prefer.  Kind of like pronouns 

I don’t think anything has 100 percent defined rules besides don’t say the N word if you are white. Period 

OnWis97

Cropduster-80 said:

Tim Simmons said:

do people say "n-word" in context like saying "frick" though? if so, yeah, thats the same thing, but I've never heard people do that. 

All I’m saying is it’s context.  You can say or quote something and replace it with “n word” instead of the real word it doesn’t necessarily make it ok. It’s all pretty situational 

im not comfortable saying African American because I don’t think “American” needs a qualifier. It’s Black. I’m just American.  I’m not Scottish american or Swedish American or whatever. I’m white 

I have some friends who prefer African American and some who prefer black so if I need to use a descriptive in a conversation I use what they prefer.  Kind of like pronouns 

Regarding African-American, I toned down my use of that when I heard someone refer to Nelson Mandela as African American...At the very least I have to know for certain that someone actually is American...

Cropduster-80

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Tim Simmons said:

do people say "n-word" in context like saying "frick" though? if so, yeah, thats the same thing, but I've never heard people do that. 

All I’m saying is it’s context.  You can say or quote something and replace it with “n word” instead of the real word it doesn’t necessarily make it ok. It’s all pretty situational 

im not comfortable saying African American because I don’t think “American” needs a qualifier. It’s Black. I’m just American.  I’m not Scottish american or Swedish American or whatever. I’m white 

I have some friends who prefer African American and some who prefer black so if I need to use a descriptive in a conversation I use what they prefer.  Kind of like pronouns 

Regarding African-American, I toned down my use of that when I heard someone refer to Nelson Mandela as African American...At the very least I have to know for certain that someone actually is American...

Dave matthews is African American.  It’s not a race it’s an origin and a very non specific origin.  It’s certainly more applicable to him than Nelson Mandela 

But yeah it’s absurd to use that term as a blanket description of a race no matter where they are from… but then again some people want to be referred to as such so ok 

not to even get into the fact it’s an entire continent of many countries and cultures, and it’s almost like referring to it as a singular country… ie Italian American, Irish American. Those are specific cultures. Africa isn’t.  the more you think about it the worse it seems 

HughFreakingDillon

Scottish-Manitoban has a nice ring to it. lol

brianlux

Cropduster-80 said:

pjhawks said:

Interesting to see this thread come back up.  I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it.  My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well.  i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers. 

In music or literature the word has its place for a variety of reasons.  I still wouldn’t sing or say it out loud 

the word can still have it’s intended effect without you audibly repeating it.  

However I will say using descriptors like “n word” and everyone still knows what you are saying. It’s like when my kids substitute “frick” for the f word.  I know what they meant and if the intent was to swear using an alternative doesn’t make it ok either. Using a less offensive derivative doesn’t automatically change the intent. Who uses it and intent of those who can use the word is important.

For a word with a history as that, I really don’t know how you are even supposed to describe it as context and race makes it tricky.  Ultimately it’s up to the community it most offends to decide and there are varying opinions there. It’s absolutely not up to me 

My wife and I were recently having a similar discussion about expletives.  I think it was George Carlin who said, "Don't kid yourself, your 'shoot' is 'shit'". 

All words (of course) are harmless, and it's only the intent of their use that can be damaging. 
I also find that certain words have a power both in their meaning and/or because of their characteristic onomatopoeia that make them most useful when used judiciously.  I've know people who can't say one fucking sentence without using the powerful word "fuck" and it fucking makes me fucking crazy (obvious an over use of the word "fuck").  That's a great word, but is best reserved for situation like when you bash you shin on the coffee table or when you first hear that Donald Trump has won an election.

But, yeah, it gets tricky with racial slurs.  Out of respect for the fact that many people find it offensive under any circumstance, I don't say [n-word], I say "n-word".  But to be honest, I think our society has gone overboard with that kind of imposed restriction.  Why should I be able to refer to a white person as "cracker", "whitey", or "honky", but a black person can't use that term in a none-discriminatory manner (like in a joke or a reference)?  To my way of thinking, this kind of word prohibition is taking political correctness to a unnecessary extreme. But then I feel that way about political correctness in general.

HughFreakingDillon said:

Scottish-Manitoban has a nice ring to it. lol

Indeed, lol!

Y'all can call me "honky". 

HughFreakingDillon

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

Cropduster-80

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

True. I think a lot of what’s going on with the n word has to do with reclaiming the word.  That’s why white people can’t use it ever.  Black people can have the debate internally about when to use it and when not to. Has nothing to do with white people it’s not our word anymore 

a white slur is apples and oranges broadly.  We haven’t been repressed and we have no need to reclaim any white slurs from a group who oppressed us.  

Maybe it’s different with sub groups like Irish or Italian or polish slurs as there are a lot.  Sure those communities can use them internally as that’s up to them, but other white people shouldn’t as you can’t  fully understand the impact of it. Similar but still not a historical equivalent 

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly.  The Amish for example.  If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.

tempo_n_groove

Tim Simmons said:

pjhawks said:

Interesting to see this thread come back up.  I had a discussion on this with my niece this summer and I argued that when the word is used in a song it is ok for it to be sung by anyone listening to the song. she disagrees and says it should never be used. my argument was the artistic vision of the artist was to include that word and not using it changes the artistic vision of said artist. she wasn't buying it.  My niece is a millennial and we have had discussions along these lines on other topics as well.  i find it really interesting to have these discussions with this generation to see how their attitudes on many things have evolved from Gen X and Boomers. 

I posted this on the last page, but it’s particularly relevant for this question

https://youtu.be/QO15S3WC9pg

That girl fell all over herself to be apologetic huh?

Very well thought out by Coates.  He is very witty.

tempo_n_groove

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly.  The Amish for example.  If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.

Who bothers the Amish?  They make great stuff!

Cropduster-80

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly.  The Amish for example.  If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.

Who bothers the Amish?  They make great stuff!

We had Hutterite colonies where I grew up. Amish with electricity 

people always thought they stole from every store they entered.  Speaking German amongst themselves didn’t help. Everyone labeled that suspicious.  People commonly do that with Spanish speakers too 

I believe it 

Gern Blansten

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

True. I think a lot of what’s going on with the n word has to do with reclaiming the word.  That’s why white people can’t use it ever.  Black people can have the debate internally about when to use it and when not to. Has nothing to do with white people it’s not our word anymore 

a white slur is apples and oranges broadly.  We haven’t been repressed and we have no need to reclaim any white slurs from a group who oppressed us.  

Maybe it’s different with sub groups like Irish or Italian or polish slurs as there are a lot.  Sure those communities can use them internally as that’s up to them, but other white people shouldn’t as you can’t  fully understand the impact of it. Similar but still not a historical equivalent 

I used to be in the "if they use it it's ok for us to say it" camp but that's wrong....not a word that we should ever use

OnWis97

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly.  The Amish for example.  If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.

I am sure they deal with a lot of unfair treatment. But it's not really because they're white.

Cropduster-80

OnWis97 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly.  The Amish for example.  If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.

I am sure they deal with a lot of unfair treatment. But it's not really because they're white.

Exactly. That’s kind of the point in the larger context of how we view race. 

We can see they are a distinct culture within a larger white race.  We are quick to be able to separate different elements of white culture and recognise Irish, Amish, polish isn’t the same thing. Black culture is reduced to “African” not the distinct cultures they come from and evolved from. It’s not homogenous 

It’s comparing a slur directed at everyone Vs a slur directed at a small group within a larger one. It would make no sense if I used an Irish slur to a German.  I can’t even use a white slur properly without at least a basic understanding of their culture. Saying the N word requires none of that. That makes it dehumanising 

tempo_n_groove

Cropduster-80 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly.  The Amish for example.  If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.

Who bothers the Amish?  They make great stuff!

We had Hutterite colonies where I grew up. Amish with electricity 

people always thought they stole from every store they entered.  Speaking German amongst themselves didn’t help. Everyone labeled that suspicious.  People commonly do that with Spanish speakers too 

I believe it 

We have Mennonites that fit that description in PA.  They are also referred to as Pennsylvania Deutsch.

HughFreakingDillon

Cropduster-80 said:

OnWis97 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think being called a "white" slur isn't nearly as bad since we weren't on the receiving end of abuse for 250 years. it has a much stronger connotation than honky. 

True, although there are subsets of whites who get singled out and harassed badly.  The Amish for example.  If you've seen the film Witness you get a good sense of what they have had to deal with.

I am sure they deal with a lot of unfair treatment. But it's not really because they're white.

Exactly. That’s kind of the point in the larger context of how we view race. 

We can see they are a distinct culture within a larger white race.  We are quick to be able to separate different elements of white culture and recognise Irish, Amish, polish isn’t the same thing. Black culture is reduced to “African” not the distinct cultures they come from and evolved from. It’s not homogenous 

It’s comparing a slur directed at everyone Vs a slur directed at a small group within a larger one. It would make no sense if I used an Irish slur to a German.  I can’t even use a white slur properly without at least a basic understanding of their culture. Saying the N word requires none of that. That makes it dehumanising 

wow. excellent post. never thought of it that way.