The Democratic Presidential Debates

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  • myoung321
    myoung321 Posts: 2,855
    brianlux said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Again though, I think he is trying to woo some of the moderate Republican votes- and a lot of those middle America moderate Republicans probably still do use terms like "gateway drug".  And it's not a bad strategy, especially because I really doubt he cares about weed being legal or not- probably has toked a few himself in his day.
    It matters.... Look at Oklahoma, a deep Red State, but both Left and Right voted overwhelmingly for medical MJ. This makes Biden look out of touch, which he is...
    "The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
     


  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,882
    myoung321 said:
    brianlux said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Again though, I think he is trying to woo some of the moderate Republican votes- and a lot of those middle America moderate Republicans probably still do use terms like "gateway drug".  And it's not a bad strategy, especially because I really doubt he cares about weed being legal or not- probably has toked a few himself in his day.
    It matters.... Look at Oklahoma, a deep Red State, but both Left and Right voted overwhelmingly for medical MJ. This makes Biden look out of touch, which he is...
    He is but who cares.  If he supports decriminalization and state legalization,  it's not very important in the grand scheme.  And it's clearly not patronizing,  it's his belief system.  
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,437
    mrussel1 said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Seriously. It really just makes him sound stupid IMO.
    Stupid, out-of-touch, stuck in his old ways....any would apply.

    He's likely just trying to come off less "left" than his opponents. I'm sure moderate Democrats and Trump-hating Republicans could appreciate that. But the bulk of the Democratic electorate that he's going need to win the primary? Not sure how well it'll play with them. 
    Apparently, only 7% of Americans actually think cannabis should be completely illegal, lol. He doesn't just sound out of touch. He IS out of touch, clearly. If he wasn't, he never would have made that dumbass statement!
    Of all the crazy policies touted by this crop of democrats...I’m surprised Joe took this one as the far left. Cause it’s not.  Weird.
    Yeah and yet he was one of the dumbasses that raised their hand at the first debate when asked, by a show of hands, about who would support free healthcare for illegal immigrants. And if you ever watch that clip back, he's among the last to raise his hand. Because he KNOWS it's a horrible policy proposal (and an even worse campaign promise to have Trump holding over your head), but he looked around, saw the others raising their hands, and he fell in line like a sheep. 
    We discussed this deeply before.  This was a fundamentally unfair question.  Your assessment and pejorative is just as unfair and without thought 

    What if a person had a heart attack? Should they be treated?  Isn't that healthcare?  Stupid questions lead to misunderstanding and inaccurate results,  by all the candidates.  
    this is something that irritates me. equating heathcare with insurance.

    all of the debate around ACA was misspoken in my opinion.

    hospitals arent checking immigration status before treating a patient in obvious distress.



    practical and reasonable to me is public option. if everyone in dc is all about consumer choice then move on it. seems like the logical potential transition  to M4A anyway.

    trouble is those fuckers are addicted to industry money.
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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,882
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Seriously. It really just makes him sound stupid IMO.
    Stupid, out-of-touch, stuck in his old ways....any would apply.

    He's likely just trying to come off less "left" than his opponents. I'm sure moderate Democrats and Trump-hating Republicans could appreciate that. But the bulk of the Democratic electorate that he's going need to win the primary? Not sure how well it'll play with them. 
    Apparently, only 7% of Americans actually think cannabis should be completely illegal, lol. He doesn't just sound out of touch. He IS out of touch, clearly. If he wasn't, he never would have made that dumbass statement!
    Of all the crazy policies touted by this crop of democrats...I’m surprised Joe took this one as the far left. Cause it’s not.  Weird.
    Yeah and yet he was one of the dumbasses that raised their hand at the first debate when asked, by a show of hands, about who would support free healthcare for illegal immigrants. And if you ever watch that clip back, he's among the last to raise his hand. Because he KNOWS it's a horrible policy proposal (and an even worse campaign promise to have Trump holding over your head), but he looked around, saw the others raising their hands, and he fell in line like a sheep. 
    We discussed this deeply before.  This was a fundamentally unfair question.  Your assessment and pejorative is just as unfair and without thought 

    What if a person had a heart attack? Should they be treated?  Isn't that healthcare?  Stupid questions lead to misunderstanding and inaccurate results,  by all the candidates.  
    this is something that irritates me. equating heathcare with insurance.

    all of the debate around ACA was misspoken in my opinion.

    hospitals arent checking immigration status before treating a patient in obvious distress.



    practical and reasonable to me is public option. if everyone in dc is all about consumer choice then move on it. seems like the logical potential transition  to M4A anyway.

    trouble is those fuckers are addicted to industry money.
    Agreed on all of your points,  particularly the one about insurance vs care.  

    And im hopeful that democratic senators are ready to support the public option.  I don't see Biden rolling out something that he knows would be DOA in the Senate, his home turf. 
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    cincybearcat said:
    brianlux said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Again though, I think he is trying to woo some of the moderate Republican votes- and a lot of those middle America moderate Republicans probably still do use terms like "gateway drug".  And it's not a bad strategy, especially because I really doubt he cares about weed being legal or not- probably has toked a few himself in his day.
    Here is the reality. If Dems want to win republican votes:

    1) be anti-abortion (not likely)
    2) be pro-gun (I hope not likey)
    3) speak about fiscal responsibility (no free everything)
    4) have an actual immigration policy that isn’t dumb. But of course most haven’t come close. Ironically GW and Obama weren’t that bad here 

    Otherwise it doesn’t matter
    Those would win votes, for sure, Cincy.  The smart thing to do would be to

    1) Down play the abortion issue as much as possible (yes, easier said than done, but stay away fro it as much as possible).
    2) Same thing with guns.  Maybe push for better background checks, no bazookas,  etc, but don't take ALL the boys toys away.
    3)  Encourage people to be being smart with their personal finance.  Make it a win for them.
    4) Well said on your take!
    5) Show them some respect- don't make them they enemy. 

    Another tactic is... join them.  I have a relative who for many years has been a very hard working environmental lawyer (and never got rich in that line of that business) who has been a life-long DIE HARD Democrat.  He just informed me that he is going to re-register as a Republican because a) that party needs people like him, b) he can vote against Trump in the primaries and c) a few of his friends are Republican AND strongly environmental and he likes the idea of having more environmentally friendly Republicans.  Interesting thought!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    edited November 2019
    myoung321 said:
    brianlux said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Again though, I think he is trying to woo some of the moderate Republican votes- and a lot of those middle America moderate Republicans probably still do use terms like "gateway drug".  And it's not a bad strategy, especially because I really doubt he cares about weed being legal or not- probably has toked a few himself in his day.
    It matters.... Look at Oklahoma, a deep Red State, but both Left and Right voted overwhelmingly for medical MJ. This makes Biden look out of touch, which he is...
    Wow- didn't know that.  In any case, this is a minor issue for most people and will soon be forgotten (but then, everything is soon-to-be-forgotten in this mass-ADD/ADHD twitter world.)
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,994
    mrussel1 said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Seriously. It really just makes him sound stupid IMO.
    Stupid, out-of-touch, stuck in his old ways....any would apply.

    He's likely just trying to come off less "left" than his opponents. I'm sure moderate Democrats and Trump-hating Republicans could appreciate that. But the bulk of the Democratic electorate that he's going need to win the primary? Not sure how well it'll play with them. 
    Apparently, only 7% of Americans actually think cannabis should be completely illegal, lol. He doesn't just sound out of touch. He IS out of touch, clearly. If he wasn't, he never would have made that dumbass statement!
    Of all the crazy policies touted by this crop of democrats...I’m surprised Joe took this one as the far left. Cause it’s not.  Weird.
    Yeah and yet he was one of the dumbasses that raised their hand at the first debate when asked, by a show of hands, about who would support free healthcare for illegal immigrants. And if you ever watch that clip back, he's among the last to raise his hand. Because he KNOWS it's a horrible policy proposal (and an even worse campaign promise to have Trump holding over your head), but he looked around, saw the others raising their hands, and he fell in line like a sheep. 
    We discussed this deeply before.  This was a fundamentally unfair question.  Your assessment and pejorative is just as unfair and without thought 

    What if a person had a heart attack? Should they be treated?  Isn't that healthcare?  Stupid questions lead to misunderstanding and inaccurate results,  by all the candidates.  
    I’m just talking about how it all came off to the TV viewers. Not looking for a health insurance for illegals vs. emergency care for illegals debate. You’re right it was a stupid question. You said we discussed this deeply before...two people on a band’s website. Yet ten presidential candidates on national TV get to raise their hands if they agree with a vague question. It’s ridiculous. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1

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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Seriously. It really just makes him sound stupid IMO.
    Stupid, out-of-touch, stuck in his old ways....any would apply.

    He's likely just trying to come off less "left" than his opponents. I'm sure moderate Democrats and Trump-hating Republicans could appreciate that. But the bulk of the Democratic electorate that he's going need to win the primary? Not sure how well it'll play with them. 
    Apparently, only 7% of Americans actually think cannabis should be completely illegal, lol. He doesn't just sound out of touch. He IS out of touch, clearly. If he wasn't, he never would have made that dumbass statement!
    Of all the crazy policies touted by this crop of democrats...I’m surprised Joe took this one as the far left. Cause it’s not.  Weird.
    Yeah and yet he was one of the dumbasses that raised their hand at the first debate when asked, by a show of hands, about who would support free healthcare for illegal immigrants. And if you ever watch that clip back, he's among the last to raise his hand. Because he KNOWS it's a horrible policy proposal (and an even worse campaign promise to have Trump holding over your head), but he looked around, saw the others raising their hands, and he fell in line like a sheep. 
    We discussed this deeply before.  This was a fundamentally unfair question.  Your assessment and pejorative is just as unfair and without thought 

    What if a person had a heart attack? Should they be treated?  Isn't that healthcare?  Stupid questions lead to misunderstanding and inaccurate results,  by all the candidates.  
    I’m just talking about how it all came off to the TV viewers. Not looking for a health insurance for illegals vs. emergency care for illegals debate. You’re right it was a stupid question. You said we discussed this deeply before...two people on a band’s website. Yet ten presidential candidates on national TV get to raise their hands if they agree with a vague question. It’s ridiculous. 
    Wouldn't it have been great if at least a few of those candidates and spoken out and said, "This is a more complex issue than a simple yes or no answer.  I will neither raise nor not raise my hand but would be glad to talk about it further at a later time.  People are so goddamn dumb about shit.  It always has to be "yes" or "no", left or right, up or down.  I say, fuck that shit.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,994
    brianlux said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Seriously. It really just makes him sound stupid IMO.
    Stupid, out-of-touch, stuck in his old ways....any would apply.

    He's likely just trying to come off less "left" than his opponents. I'm sure moderate Democrats and Trump-hating Republicans could appreciate that. But the bulk of the Democratic electorate that he's going need to win the primary? Not sure how well it'll play with them. 
    Apparently, only 7% of Americans actually think cannabis should be completely illegal, lol. He doesn't just sound out of touch. He IS out of touch, clearly. If he wasn't, he never would have made that dumbass statement!
    Of all the crazy policies touted by this crop of democrats...I’m surprised Joe took this one as the far left. Cause it’s not.  Weird.
    Yeah and yet he was one of the dumbasses that raised their hand at the first debate when asked, by a show of hands, about who would support free healthcare for illegal immigrants. And if you ever watch that clip back, he's among the last to raise his hand. Because he KNOWS it's a horrible policy proposal (and an even worse campaign promise to have Trump holding over your head), but he looked around, saw the others raising their hands, and he fell in line like a sheep. 
    We discussed this deeply before.  This was a fundamentally unfair question.  Your assessment and pejorative is just as unfair and without thought 

    What if a person had a heart attack? Should they be treated?  Isn't that healthcare?  Stupid questions lead to misunderstanding and inaccurate results,  by all the candidates.  
    I’m just talking about how it all came off to the TV viewers. Not looking for a health insurance for illegals vs. emergency care for illegals debate. You’re right it was a stupid question. You said we discussed this deeply before...two people on a band’s website. Yet ten presidential candidates on national TV get to raise their hands if they agree with a vague question. It’s ridiculous. 
    Wouldn't it have been great if at least a few of those candidates and spoken out and said, "This is a more complex issue than a simple yes or no answer.  I will neither raise nor not raise my hand but would be glad to talk about it further at a later time.  People are so goddamn dumb about shit.  It always has to be "yes" or "no", left or right, up or down.  I say, fuck that shit.
    Completely agree. The whole party seems to shoot itself in the foot. No way their moderator should put them in that sort of situation 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1

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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    brianlux said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Biden sounds like a relic calling weed a "gateway drug." If he insists on being against federal legalization, he should come up with a better reason than a talking point from the mid-1980's. 
    Seriously. It really just makes him sound stupid IMO.
    Stupid, out-of-touch, stuck in his old ways....any would apply.

    He's likely just trying to come off less "left" than his opponents. I'm sure moderate Democrats and Trump-hating Republicans could appreciate that. But the bulk of the Democratic electorate that he's going need to win the primary? Not sure how well it'll play with them. 
    Apparently, only 7% of Americans actually think cannabis should be completely illegal, lol. He doesn't just sound out of touch. He IS out of touch, clearly. If he wasn't, he never would have made that dumbass statement!
    Of all the crazy policies touted by this crop of democrats...I’m surprised Joe took this one as the far left. Cause it’s not.  Weird.
    Yeah and yet he was one of the dumbasses that raised their hand at the first debate when asked, by a show of hands, about who would support free healthcare for illegal immigrants. And if you ever watch that clip back, he's among the last to raise his hand. Because he KNOWS it's a horrible policy proposal (and an even worse campaign promise to have Trump holding over your head), but he looked around, saw the others raising their hands, and he fell in line like a sheep. 
    We discussed this deeply before.  This was a fundamentally unfair question.  Your assessment and pejorative is just as unfair and without thought 

    What if a person had a heart attack? Should they be treated?  Isn't that healthcare?  Stupid questions lead to misunderstanding and inaccurate results,  by all the candidates.  
    I’m just talking about how it all came off to the TV viewers. Not looking for a health insurance for illegals vs. emergency care for illegals debate. You’re right it was a stupid question. You said we discussed this deeply before...two people on a band’s website. Yet ten presidential candidates on national TV get to raise their hands if they agree with a vague question. It’s ridiculous. 
    Wouldn't it have been great if at least a few of those candidates and spoken out and said, "This is a more complex issue than a simple yes or no answer.  I will neither raise nor not raise my hand but would be glad to talk about it further at a later time.  People are so goddamn dumb about shit.  It always has to be "yes" or "no", left or right, up or down.  I say, fuck that shit.
    Completely agree. The whole party seems to shoot itself in the foot. No way their moderator should put them in that sort of situation 
    There's only one word for it, on both sides,  Ledbett- "Clusterfuck"!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,474



    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,882
    My lord,  I hate when people try to find points of commonality with those they may fundamentally disagree with.  Next thing you know,  they'll be working together on common sense solutions.  Then our Republic will end. 
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,369
    mrussel1 said:
    My lord,  I hate when people try to find points of commonality with those they may fundamentally disagree with.  Next thing you know,  they'll be working together on common sense solutions.  Then our Republic will end. 
    I'm right there with you, Matt! Who would take some of everything when they can have all of nothing?
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  • ikiT
    ikiT USA Posts: 11,059
    mrussel1 said:
    My lord,  I hate when people try to find points of commonality with those they may fundamentally disagree with.  Next thing you know,  they'll be working together on common sense solutions.  Then our Republic will end. 
    reasonability is sweet 
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,899
    edited November 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    My lord,  I hate when people try to find points of commonality with those they may fundamentally disagree with.  Next thing you know,  they'll be working together on common sense solutions.  Then our Republic will end. 

    Since there is a good chance trump gets 4 more years aren't we precariously close to that ?

    Watched FOX for a bit yesterday and its non stop "the president did nothing illegal "

    Non stop

    And if he loses he'll blame the fake impeachment for ruining his campaign and totally legitimately will refuse to leave the white house 

    Then what?

    So I'm not sure how we work together with that crew.
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,245
    Lerxst1992 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    My lord,  I hate when people try to find points of commonality with those they may fundamentally disagree with.  Next thing you know,  they'll be working together on common sense solutions.  Then our Republic will end. 

    Since there is a good chance trump gets 4 more years aren't we precariously close to that ?

    Watched FOX for a bit yesterday and its non stop "the president did nothing illegal "

    Non stop

    And if he loses he'll blame the fake impeachment for ruining his campaign and totally legitimately will refuse to leave the white house 

    Then what?

    So I'm not sure how we work together with that crew.
    “Medically unable to perform the duties required to be CIC, therefore I will not be, nor will I accept being, your nominee for president of the United States. But I was the best president ever. The bestest.”
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  • ikiT
    ikiT USA Posts: 11,059
    Lerxst1992 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    My lord,  I hate when people try to find points of commonality with those they may fundamentally disagree with.  Next thing you know,  they'll be working together on common sense solutions.  Then our Republic will end. 

    Since there is a good chance trump gets 4 more years aren't we precariously close to that ?

    Watched FOX for a bit yesterday and its non stop "the president did nothing illegal "

    Non stop

    And if he loses he'll blame the fake impeachment for ruining his campaign and totally legitimately will refuse to leave the white house 

    Then what?

    So I'm not sure how we work together with that crew.
    It MUST be done.   There's those who follow LAWS and LAWLESS mf'ers.  The lawless cannot win.    
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • ikiT
    ikiT USA Posts: 11,059
    Tidal waves take no prisoners.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,882
    ikiT said:
    Lerxst1992 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    My lord,  I hate when people try to find points of commonality with those they may fundamentally disagree with.  Next thing you know,  they'll be working together on common sense solutions.  Then our Republic will end. 

    Since there is a good chance trump gets 4 more years aren't we precariously close to that ?

    Watched FOX for a bit yesterday and its non stop "the president did nothing illegal "

    Non stop

    And if he loses he'll blame the fake impeachment for ruining his campaign and totally legitimately will refuse to leave the white house 

    Then what?

    So I'm not sure how we work together with that crew.
    It MUST be done.   There's those who follow LAWS and LAWLESS mf'ers.  The lawless cannot win.    
    Agreed.  I don't know what Trump would do,  but I do believe he's an anomaly. I do not believe the next Republican president would act so recklessly and unlawfully. 
  • ikiT
    ikiT USA Posts: 11,059
    mrussel1 said:
    ikiT said:
    Lerxst1992 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    My lord,  I hate when people try to find points of commonality with those they may fundamentally disagree with.  Next thing you know,  they'll be working together on common sense solutions.  Then our Republic will end. 

    Since there is a good chance trump gets 4 more years aren't we precariously close to that ?

    Watched FOX for a bit yesterday and its non stop "the president did nothing illegal "

    Non stop

    And if he loses he'll blame the fake impeachment for ruining his campaign and totally legitimately will refuse to leave the white house 

    Then what?

    So I'm not sure how we work together with that crew.
    It MUST be done.   There's those who follow LAWS and LAWLESS mf'ers.  The lawless cannot win.    
    Agreed.  I don't know what Trump would do,  but I do believe he's an anomaly. I do not believe the next Republican president would act so recklessly and unlawfully. 
    nobody would.  nobody.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
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