In 2012 I looked at Mitt Romney as "the best the GOP could do." I envisioned that from there-on-out, the Dems would be consistently running young, charismatic candidates for President, and the GOP would be doomed with the likes of Romney, Jeb, etc....just old party-loyalists that stuck around long enough to rise to the top.
Well that sure flipped. While Trump certainly isn't young, he's charismatic, not a party-loyalist, and yet the GOP loves him. The Dems on the other hand? Hillary and Biden. Hillary was fine (no charisma, but a reasonable-enough candidate for president). Biden WAS fine if he ran in 2016, but I think his time has passed.
But Biden fits my "old party-loyalist that stuck around long enough to rise to the top" criteria. Just as Romney, John McCain, John Kerry, and Bob Dole did. I'm sure you remember how all of those guys did in their general elections....
I know Obamas don't grow on trees, but it's pretty concerning (if you're a democrat) how little they've built up potential candiates both during Obama's presidency, and over the past four years.
💯 agreement on this
There were 20 candidates. It wasn't a 'lesser of two evils' choice. It's not like Biden swept Tuesday by overloading the media with ads either. He spent a fraction of what Sanders spent, yet people came out in droves for Biden. What we're seeing is that for majority of voters in the Democratic party, they just aren't as dissatisfied with the old guard as the Republicans were. In fact, the vast majority of the party look fondly upon the Obama/Biden administration. The same could not be said about the Bush admin.
This is my main concern about Joe. Is he going to excite and galvanize support out side of registered Democrats. I don’t see him garnering the outside support of republicans willing to hold their nose and vote Trump out, or hard core Sanders or bust types, I don’t see him getting independent swing voters to the polls either. I hope I am wrong, but I really think that the Dems are kidding themselves that Biden is the candidate to beat Trump. I’m by no means sure Bernie could be that candidate either, but he does manage to energize people which is something I just don’t see Biden doing.
Absolutely he will get some moderate republicans to vote for him. He will also expand on the black vote that HRC lost.
It's the Bernie voters we need to be concerned with.
In 2012 I looked at Mitt Romney as "the best the GOP could do." I envisioned that from there-on-out, the Dems would be consistently running young, charismatic candidates for President, and the GOP would be doomed with the likes of Romney, Jeb, etc....just old party-loyalists that stuck around long enough to rise to the top.
Well that sure flipped. While Trump certainly isn't young, he's charismatic, not a party-loyalist, and yet the GOP loves him. The Dems on the other hand? Hillary and Biden. Hillary was fine (no charisma, but a reasonable-enough candidate for president). Biden WAS fine if he ran in 2016, but I think his time has passed.
But Biden fits my "old party-loyalist that stuck around long enough to rise to the top" criteria. Just as Romney, John McCain, John Kerry, and Bob Dole did. I'm sure you remember how all of those guys did in their general elections....
I know Obamas don't grow on trees, but it's pretty concerning (if you're a democrat) how little they've built up potential candiates both during Obama's presidency, and over the past four years.
💯 agreement on this
There were 20 candidates. It wasn't a 'lesser of two evils' choice. It's not like Biden swept Tuesday by overloading the media with ads either. He spent a fraction of what Sanders spent, yet people came out in droves for Biden. What we're seeing is that for majority of voters in the Democratic party, they just aren't as dissatisfied with the old guard as the Republicans were. In fact, the vast majority of the party look fondly upon the Obama/Biden administration. The same could not be said about the Bush admin.
This is my main concern about Joe. Is he going to excite and galvanize support out side of registered Democrats. I don’t see him garnering the outside support of republicans willing to hold their nose and vote Trump out, or hard core Sanders or bust types, I don’t see him getting independent swing voters to the polls either. I hope I am wrong, but I really think that the Dems are kidding themselves that Biden is the candidate to beat Trump. I’m by no means sure Bernie could be that candidate either, but he does manage to energize people which is something I just don’t see Biden doing.
Absolutely he will get some moderate republicans to vote for him. He will also expand on the black vote that HRC lost.
It's the Bernie voters we need to be concerned with.
I respectfully disagree and think that this is just a registered Democrats wet dream. Like I said before I hope I’m wrong. I’m a Bernie supporter but I have already made my decision to vote for the establishment candidate if that’s all there is. No one needs 4 more years of Trump.
In 2012 I looked at Mitt Romney as "the best the GOP could do." I envisioned that from there-on-out, the Dems would be consistently running young, charismatic candidates for President, and the GOP would be doomed with the likes of Romney, Jeb, etc....just old party-loyalists that stuck around long enough to rise to the top.
Well that sure flipped. While Trump certainly isn't young, he's charismatic, not a party-loyalist, and yet the GOP loves him. The Dems on the other hand? Hillary and Biden. Hillary was fine (no charisma, but a reasonable-enough candidate for president). Biden WAS fine if he ran in 2016, but I think his time has passed.
But Biden fits my "old party-loyalist that stuck around long enough to rise to the top" criteria. Just as Romney, John McCain, John Kerry, and Bob Dole did. I'm sure you remember how all of those guys did in their general elections....
I know Obamas don't grow on trees, but it's pretty concerning (if you're a democrat) how little they've built up potential candiates both during Obama's presidency, and over the past four years.
💯 agreement on this
There were 20 candidates. It wasn't a 'lesser of two evils' choice. It's not like Biden swept Tuesday by overloading the media with ads either. He spent a fraction of what Sanders spent, yet people came out in droves for Biden. What we're seeing is that for majority of voters in the Democratic party, they just aren't as dissatisfied with the old guard as the Republicans were. In fact, the vast majority of the party look fondly upon the Obama/Biden administration. The same could not be said about the Bush admin.
This is my main concern about Joe. Is he going to excite and galvanize support out side of registered Democrats. I don’t see him garnering the outside support of republicans willing to hold their nose and vote Trump out, or hard core Sanders or bust types, I don’t see him getting independent swing voters to the polls either. I hope I am wrong, but I really think that the Dems are kidding themselves that Biden is the candidate to beat Trump. I’m by no means sure Bernie could be that candidate either, but he does manage to energize people which is something I just don’t see Biden doing.
I don't know how you don't see him getting independent or classically republican voters. That's precisely what he is more likely to get than Sanders. And Bernie's "energy" is a facade, driven by online traffic. If we learned anything last week, there was no revolution. The turnout by Sanders supporters simply does not support the hypothesis. Turnout surged in states were Biden won decisively. Biden does better with women, middle age voters and older voters. These are the people that vote reliably.
In 2012 I looked at Mitt Romney as "the best the GOP could do." I envisioned that from there-on-out, the Dems would be consistently running young, charismatic candidates for President, and the GOP would be doomed with the likes of Romney, Jeb, etc....just old party-loyalists that stuck around long enough to rise to the top.
Well that sure flipped. While Trump certainly isn't young, he's charismatic, not a party-loyalist, and yet the GOP loves him. The Dems on the other hand? Hillary and Biden. Hillary was fine (no charisma, but a reasonable-enough candidate for president). Biden WAS fine if he ran in 2016, but I think his time has passed.
But Biden fits my "old party-loyalist that stuck around long enough to rise to the top" criteria. Just as Romney, John McCain, John Kerry, and Bob Dole did. I'm sure you remember how all of those guys did in their general elections....
I know Obamas don't grow on trees, but it's pretty concerning (if you're a democrat) how little they've built up potential candiates both during Obama's presidency, and over the past four years.
💯 agreement on this
There were 20 candidates. It wasn't a 'lesser of two evils' choice. It's not like Biden swept Tuesday by overloading the media with ads either. He spent a fraction of what Sanders spent, yet people came out in droves for Biden. What we're seeing is that for majority of voters in the Democratic party, they just aren't as dissatisfied with the old guard as the Republicans were. In fact, the vast majority of the party look fondly upon the Obama/Biden administration. The same could not be said about the Bush admin.
This is my main concern about Joe. Is he going to excite and galvanize support out side of registered Democrats. I don’t see him garnering the outside support of republicans willing to hold their nose and vote Trump out, or hard core Sanders or bust types, I don’t see him getting independent swing voters to the polls either. I hope I am wrong, but I really think that the Dems are kidding themselves that Biden is the candidate to beat Trump. I’m by no means sure Bernie could be that candidate either, but he does manage to energize people which is something I just don’t see Biden doing.
Absolutely he will get some moderate republicans to vote for him. He will also expand on the black vote that HRC lost.
It's the Bernie voters we need to be concerned with.
I respectfully disagree and think that this is just a registered Democrats wet dream. Like I said before I hope I’m wrong. I’m a Bernie supporter but I have already made my decision to vote for the establishment candidate if that’s all there is. No one needs 4 more years of Trump.
What if Bernie wound up running 3rd party? As the Green nominee, for instance.
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
0
Options
The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,547
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
....and he's more likely to gain the black voters that hrc lost in 2016 too...
In 2012 I looked at Mitt Romney as "the best the GOP could do." I envisioned that from there-on-out, the Dems would be consistently running young, charismatic candidates for President, and the GOP would be doomed with the likes of Romney, Jeb, etc....just old party-loyalists that stuck around long enough to rise to the top.
Well that sure flipped. While Trump certainly isn't young, he's charismatic, not a party-loyalist, and yet the GOP loves him. The Dems on the other hand? Hillary and Biden. Hillary was fine (no charisma, but a reasonable-enough candidate for president). Biden WAS fine if he ran in 2016, but I think his time has passed.
But Biden fits my "old party-loyalist that stuck around long enough to rise to the top" criteria. Just as Romney, John McCain, John Kerry, and Bob Dole did. I'm sure you remember how all of those guys did in their general elections....
I know Obamas don't grow on trees, but it's pretty concerning (if you're a democrat) how little they've built up potential candiates both during Obama's presidency, and over the past four years.
💯 agreement on this
There were 20 candidates. It wasn't a 'lesser of two evils' choice. It's not like Biden swept Tuesday by overloading the media with ads either. He spent a fraction of what Sanders spent, yet people came out in droves for Biden. What we're seeing is that for majority of voters in the Democratic party, they just aren't as dissatisfied with the old guard as the Republicans were. In fact, the vast majority of the party look fondly upon the Obama/Biden administration. The same could not be said about the Bush admin.
This is my main concern about Joe. Is he going to excite and galvanize support out side of registered Democrats. I don’t see him garnering the outside support of republicans willing to hold their nose and vote Trump out, or hard core Sanders or bust types, I don’t see him getting independent swing voters to the polls either. I hope I am wrong, but I really think that the Dems are kidding themselves that Biden is the candidate to beat Trump. I’m by no means sure Bernie could be that candidate either, but he does manage to energize people which is something I just don’t see Biden doing.
Absolutely he will get some moderate republicans to vote for him. He will also expand on the black vote that HRC lost.
It's the Bernie voters we need to be concerned with.
I respectfully disagree and think that this is just a registered Democrats wet dream. Like I said before I hope I’m wrong. I’m a Bernie supporter but I have already made my decision to vote for the establishment candidate if that’s all there is. No one needs 4 more years of Trump.
What if Bernie wound up running 3rd party? As the Green nominee, for instance.
then it would further prove Bernie is as dumb and useless as I think he is
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
....and he's more likely to gain the black voters that hrc lost in 2016 too...
Her success in the 2016 southern primaries was attributed largely to the African American communities, was it not? Much like Biden's in South Carolina? I get that he does not have her negatives, but this increasingly feels like the same mistake is being made over again.
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
....and he's more likely to gain the black voters that hrc lost in 2016 too...
Her success in the 2016 southern primaries was attributed largely to the African American communities, was it not? Much like Biden's in South Carolina? I get that he does not have her negatives, but this increasingly feels like the same mistake is being made over again.
Look at the map. Bernie is green.
And interestingly, Biden won MN, ME and MA which Bernie won last time. And Sanders won California. The only consistent theme thus far is Sanders weakness with black votes.
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
....and he's more likely to gain the black voters that hrc lost in 2016 too...
Her success in the 2016 southern primaries was attributed largely to the African American communities, was it not? Much like Biden's in South Carolina? I get that he does not have her negatives, but this increasingly feels like the same mistake is being made over again.
Not even close. Look at the map. Bernie is green.
And interestingly, Biden won MN, ME and MA which Bernie won last time. And Sanders won California. The only consistent theme thus far is Sanders weakness with black votes.
I'm not talking about Bernie. I'm talking about the strategy.
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
....and he's more likely to gain the black voters that hrc lost in 2016 too...
Her success in the 2016 southern primaries was attributed largely to the African American communities, was it not? Much like Biden's in South Carolina? I get that he does not have her negatives, but this increasingly feels like the same mistake is being made over again.
Not even close. Look at the map. Bernie is green.
And interestingly, Biden won MN, ME and MA which Bernie won last time. And Sanders won California. The only consistent theme thus far is Sanders weakness with black votes.
I'm not talking about Bernie. I'm talking about the strategy.
EDIT: Also, HRC won MA in 2016.
Yes, your'e right on MA. It blended in there. What do you mean by 'strategy' then? Voters aren't writing a strategy and following it. They're voting and the candidates and donors are reacting to the votes.
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
....and he's more likely to gain the black voters that hrc lost in 2016 too...
Her success in the 2016 southern primaries was attributed largely to the African American communities, was it not? Much like Biden's in South Carolina? I get that he does not have her negatives, but this increasingly feels like the same mistake is being made over again.
Not even close. Look at the map. Bernie is green.
And interestingly, Biden won MN, ME and MA which Bernie won last time. And Sanders won California. The only consistent theme thus far is Sanders weakness with black votes.
I'm not talking about Bernie. I'm talking about the strategy.
EDIT: Also, HRC won MA in 2016.
Yes, your'e right on MA. It blended in there. What do you mean by 'strategy' then? Voters aren't writing a strategy and following it. They're voting and the candidates and donors are reacting to the votes.
I mean assuming Republicans will turn out for Diden for one, and thinking the AA vote will be Obama-esque for two. Beating Bernie is fine, but beating Trump is what matters. What gets lost when the Dem nominee spends his time trying to win over classically Republican voters? Voters who may not help anymore this year than they did four years ago. HRC fully expected Republican women to be there for her and they weren't. Thinking it will be different this time is risky.
A nominee who tries to be all things to all constituencies never appears genuine, because they never are. I rather we try to keep the left on board than make overtures to the right.
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
....and he's more likely to gain the black voters that hrc lost in 2016 too...
Her success in the 2016 southern primaries was attributed largely to the African American communities, was it not? Much like Biden's in South Carolina? I get that he does not have her negatives, but this increasingly feels like the same mistake is being made over again.
Not even close. Look at the map. Bernie is green.
And interestingly, Biden won MN, ME and MA which Bernie won last time. And Sanders won California. The only consistent theme thus far is Sanders weakness with black votes.
I'm not talking about Bernie. I'm talking about the strategy.
EDIT: Also, HRC won MA in 2016.
Yes, your'e right on MA. It blended in there. What do you mean by 'strategy' then? Voters aren't writing a strategy and following it. They're voting and the candidates and donors are reacting to the votes.
I mean assuming Republicans will turn out for Diden for one, and thinking the AA vote will be Obama-esque for two. Beating Bernie is fine, but beating Trump is what matters. What gets lost when the Dem nominee spends his time trying to win over classically Republican voters? Voters who may not help anymore this year than they did four years ago. HRC fully expected Republican women to be there for her and they weren't. Thinking it will be different this time is risky.
A nominee who tries to be all things to all constituencies never appears genuine, because they never are. I rather we try to keep the left on board than make overtures to the right.
In my opinion, Biden has been an advocate for the moderate/Obama wing of the party. That's where I sit. It's not like his policies are classically republican, they're absolutely left of center. I think there's a hope that Independents and some Republicans (think, the Jennifer Rubins, Bill Kristols, John Kasichs of the world) will swallow their pride and accept moderate policies because they find Trump so repugnant personally and intellectually. But no one is advocating republican positions to win them over, least of all Biden.
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
....and he's more likely to gain the black voters that hrc lost in 2016 too...
Her success in the 2016 southern primaries was attributed largely to the African American communities, was it not? Much like Biden's in South Carolina? I get that he does not have her negatives, but this increasingly feels like the same mistake is being made over again.
Not even close. Look at the map. Bernie is green.
And interestingly, Biden won MN, ME and MA which Bernie won last time. And Sanders won California. The only consistent theme thus far is Sanders weakness with black votes.
I'm not talking about Bernie. I'm talking about the strategy.
EDIT: Also, HRC won MA in 2016.
Yes, your'e right on MA. It blended in there. What do you mean by 'strategy' then? Voters aren't writing a strategy and following it. They're voting and the candidates and donors are reacting to the votes.
I mean assuming Republicans will turn out for Diden for one, and thinking the AA vote will be Obama-esque for two. Beating Bernie is fine, but beating Trump is what matters. What gets lost when the Dem nominee spends his time trying to win over classically Republican voters? Voters who may not help anymore this year than they did four years ago. HRC fully expected Republican women to be there for her and they weren't. Thinking it will be different this time is risky.
A nominee who tries to be all things to all constituencies never appears genuine, because they never are. I rather we try to keep the left on board than make overtures to the right.
In my opinion, Biden has been an advocate for the moderate/Obama wing of the party. That's where I sit. It's not like his policies are classically republican, they're absolutely left of center. I think there's a hope that Independents and some Republicans (think, the Jennifer Rubins, Bill Kristols, John Kasichs of the world) will swallow their pride and accept moderate policies because they find Trump so repugnant personally and intellectually. But no one is advocating republican positions to win them over, least of all Biden.
Think Kasich, Schwarzenegger and Kerry and their warzero campaign. They, and like minded individuals, see Biden as an ally. The Bush/Romney wing of the repub party detests Team Trump Treason. Sleepy “Woke” Joe will get some of them, hopefully enough to counter the pouty Berniebrosises.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
In 2012 I looked at Mitt Romney as "the best the GOP could do." I envisioned that from there-on-out, the Dems would be consistently running young, charismatic candidates for President, and the GOP would be doomed with the likes of Romney, Jeb, etc....just old party-loyalists that stuck around long enough to rise to the top.
Well that sure flipped. While Trump certainly isn't young, he's charismatic, not a party-loyalist, and yet the GOP loves him. The Dems on the other hand? Hillary and Biden. Hillary was fine (no charisma, but a reasonable-enough candidate for president). Biden WAS fine if he ran in 2016, but I think his time has passed.
But Biden fits my "old party-loyalist that stuck around long enough to rise to the top" criteria. Just as Romney, John McCain, John Kerry, and Bob Dole did. I'm sure you remember how all of those guys did in their general elections....
I know Obamas don't grow on trees, but it's pretty concerning (if you're a democrat) how little they've built up potential candiates both during Obama's presidency, and over the past four years.
💯 agreement on this
There were 20 candidates. It wasn't a 'lesser of two evils' choice. It's not like Biden swept Tuesday by overloading the media with ads either. He spent a fraction of what Sanders spent, yet people came out in droves for Biden. What we're seeing is that for majority of voters in the Democratic party, they just aren't as dissatisfied with the old guard as the Republicans were. In fact, the vast majority of the party look fondly upon the Obama/Biden administration. The same could not be said about the Bush admin.
This is my main concern about Joe. Is he going to excite and galvanize support out side of registered Democrats. I don’t see him garnering the outside support of republicans willing to hold their nose and vote Trump out, or hard core Sanders or bust types, I don’t see him getting independent swing voters to the polls either. I hope I am wrong, but I really think that the Dems are kidding themselves that Biden is the candidate to beat Trump. I’m by no means sure Bernie could be that candidate either, but he does manage to energize people which is something I just don’t see Biden doing.
Of the 3 remaining candidates Biden is the only one getting over 50% in head to head polling.
That is evidence Biden is doing best with independents.
You guys are really going to die on the Republicans will save us hill? When has that ever worked? Look at Romney's 2012 numbers and then at Trump's 2016 numbers. Fox News and the Senate will wage war on Biden for 8 months. Scorched Earth, smear after smear after smear, and after awhile things will start to stick. Republicans will find a reason to vote for the Republican candidate in 2020. Depending on them to defect in significant numbers is dangerous.
No, but the poster said Biden can't draw them in. Well I'd argue if they are available to be drawn in, he's the one to do it, not Sanders. Likewise, I'm certainly not dying on the hill for college students and the youth to show and vote. They can't even show up to the primary and we have real data to support that conclusion.
....and he's more likely to gain the black voters that hrc lost in 2016 too...
Her success in the 2016 southern primaries was attributed largely to the African American communities, was it not? Much like Biden's in South Carolina? I get that he does not have her negatives, but this increasingly feels like the same mistake is being made over again.
Not even close. Look at the map. Bernie is green.
And interestingly, Biden won MN, ME and MA which Bernie won last time. And Sanders won California. The only consistent theme thus far is Sanders weakness with black votes.
I'm not talking about Bernie. I'm talking about the strategy.
EDIT: Also, HRC won MA in 2016.
Yes, your'e right on MA. It blended in there. What do you mean by 'strategy' then? Voters aren't writing a strategy and following it. They're voting and the candidates and donors are reacting to the votes.
I mean assuming Republicans will turn out for Diden for one, and thinking the AA vote will be Obama-esque for two. Beating Bernie is fine, but beating Trump is what matters. What gets lost when the Dem nominee spends his time trying to win over classically Republican voters? Voters who may not help anymore this year than they did four years ago. HRC fully expected Republican women to be there for her and they weren't. Thinking it will be different this time is risky.
A nominee who tries to be all things to all constituencies never appears genuine, because they never are. I rather we try to keep the left on board than make overtures to the right.
C'mon JV I thought I had you convinced ;-)
Believe it or not, you are making Hillary's argument, but from 2008 not 2016. Hillary won traditional democratic states, so hillary should get the nomination. Obama won most red states in the south and from IL to WA and most states in between which are mostly GOP states.
And obama won the nomination. By 0.1%
so far Biden is running that obama nomination playbook (very similar states with AA support), with one important distinction: Biden is doing it much better than obama did.
(Also I think the dems are doing much better now with suburban voters).
“If Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”(Neil Young)“Every point he makes is what I believe in”
“I support Bernie because I listen to what he says,” Young said. “Every point he makes is what I believe in. Every one. In 2016, if Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, I think we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”
Going on to accuse the Democrat Party of “pulling every political string” to prevent Sanders becoming their candidate both this year and during the 2016 election, Young said that he regrets registering as a Democrat when he became an American citizen in January.
“If Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”(Neil Young)“Every point he makes is what I believe in”
“I support Bernie because I listen to what he says,” Young said. “Every point he makes is what I believe in. Every one. In 2016, if Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, I think we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”
Going on to accuse the Democrat Party of “pulling every political string” to prevent Sanders becoming their candidate both this year and during the 2016 election, Young said that he regrets registering as a Democrat when he became an American citizen in January.
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
0
Options
mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,428
“If Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”(Neil Young)“Every point he makes is what I believe in”
“I support Bernie because I listen to what he says,” Young said. “Every point he makes is what I believe in. Every one. In 2016, if Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, I think we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”
Going on to accuse the Democrat Party of “pulling every political string” to prevent Sanders becoming their candidate both this year and during the 2016 election, Young said that he regrets registering as a Democrat when he became an American citizen in January.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
0
Options
mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,428
I find it strange a democrat would vote for someone who is NOT A DEMOCRAT.....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
“If Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”(Neil Young)“Every point he makes is what I believe in”
“I support Bernie because I listen to what he says,” Young said. “Every point he makes is what I believe in. Every one. In 2016, if Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, I think we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”
Going on to accuse the Democrat Party of “pulling every political string” to prevent Sanders becoming their candidate both this year and during the 2016 election, Young said that he regrets registering as a Democrat when he became an American citizen in January.
I find it strange a democrat would vote for someone who is NOT A DEMOCRAT.....
To push the party to the sane left where they can meet many of Bernies sane viewpoints?
Or are you saying the party, or any party, has never changed or moved politically?
Bernie has been a Senator for how many decades....
....what, exactly, has he changed?
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
I find it strange a democrat would vote for someone who is NOT A DEMOCRAT.....
To push the party to the sane left where they can meet many of Bernies sane viewpoints?
Or are you saying the party, or any party, has never changed or moved politically?
Bernie has been a Senator for how many decades....
....what, exactly, has he changed?
renaming post offices don't count
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
Comments
It's the Bernie voters we need to be concerned with.
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
And interestingly, Biden won MN, ME and MA which Bernie won last time. And Sanders won California. The only consistent theme thus far is Sanders weakness with black votes.
EDIT: Also, HRC won MA in 2016.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
A nominee who tries to be all things to all constituencies never appears genuine, because they never are. I rather we try to keep the left on board than make overtures to the right.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Of the 3 remaining candidates Biden is the only one getting over 50% in head to head polling.
That is evidence Biden is doing best with independents.
C'mon JV I thought I had you convinced ;-)
Believe it or not, you are making Hillary's argument, but from 2008 not 2016. Hillary won traditional democratic states, so hillary should get the nomination. Obama won most red states in the south and from IL to WA and most states in between which are mostly GOP states.
And obama won the nomination. By 0.1%
so far Biden is running that obama nomination playbook (very similar states with AA support), with one important distinction:
Biden is doing it much better than obama did.
(Also I think the dems are doing much better now with suburban voters).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
“If Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”(Neil Young)“Every point he makes is what I believe in”
“I support Bernie because I listen to what he says,” Young said. “Every point he makes is what I believe in. Every one. In 2016, if Bernie had run instead of Hillary Clinton, I think we would not have the incompetent mess we have now.”
Going on to accuse the Democrat Party of “pulling every political string” to prevent Sanders becoming their candidate both this year and during the 2016 election, Young said that he regrets registering as a Democrat when he became an American citizen in January.
https://www.videomuzic.eu/neil-young-on-his-future/?lang=en&fbclid=IwAR3Adwiw8M66HwX8BhVAy09U7HU725Hq5QJJjKjiEUWEjfcUBCxWFczPDHA
how do your horseshoes fit?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Or are you saying the party, or any party, has never changed or moved politically?
Neil has every right to express his opinion and be right or wrong about it. He's still just one voice, like the rest of us.
....what, exactly, has he changed?
*note emoji* See the Lonely boy, out on the weekend *another note emoji*
I've been listening to Hitchhiker quite a bit lately.