Where would you rather live the US or Sweden

Meltdown99

Canada

At least in the US they are at least offered an opportunity to leave jail while the police and prosecutors work on the case...sounds like Sweden made an arrest without even an investigation.

PJPOWER

U.S.A.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

pjhawks said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

The US State Department has sent one of its top politicians to Sweden to discuss the arrested rap partner ASAP Rocky with the Swedish government.

Jan Hallenberg, at the Foreign Policy Institute, calls it extremely unusual.

 - The superpower always assumes that their system is superior and that everyone else should fall in line.

ah so you are ok with your government holding a black man in jail for 3 weeks with no charges. good to know

Why are you focusing on him being black?

You are undermining your own argument with that sleeze.

One can only assume race is a factor based on the rampant racism uptick in Sweden.

Nope, one can not "only assume". You don't know enough to "only assume" anything regarding this or the swedish justice system.

One can only assume that you are in denial about Sweden’s prolific racism and anti-migration mentality.

mrussel1

U.S.A.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

josevolution said:

Meltdown99 said:

josevolution said:

Please there’s hundreds of children being held in cages at the border for months on end , I’m not talking adults just the kids what crimes have they’ve committed ?

There is an entire immigration thread to discuss that.  To answer your question, they have not...they are victims of irresponsible parents and government.

Really I must of missed that threat , people are being held just the same the lol people get killed here just for being black the US should not be holding its nose up to the world as a Becon of justice that’s all ..

Jose - there's a big difference between what is acceptable vs. unacceptable.  I think that's the point that's being made.  According to SC, this is appropriate under Swedish law.  Some of us think that's outrageous.  What you're pointing to are people that are doing things outside what is acceptable under the law.  

So why should you be taken into custody when charged? You have not been proven guilty yet?

Innocent until proven guilty?

SOVIET UNION 1950!

It's called probable cause, again a tenant of common law.  Then a magistrate or judge sets bail or bond, something within state guidelines typically.  

Sweden[edit]

In the criminal code of some European countries, notably Sweden, probable cause is a higher level of suspicion than "justifiable grounds" in a two level system of formal suspicion. The latter refers only to the suspect being able to and sometimes having a motive to commit the crime and in some cases witness accounts, whereas probable cause generally requires a higher degree of physical evidence and allows for longer periods of detention before trial.

So, what is the big difference other than semantics? 

In Sweden a court finds that there is probable cause and that the person which has probable cause is suspected to harm the investigation against him/her or flee from being interrogated/trial etc - he can be put in detention. Otherwise they are set free, and the investigation might show they are innocent or a trial will be set.

1. What happens if a person is suspected of harming the investigation in the US? Or are at risk of fleeing?

2. What happens if a person is suspected of assault, and a bail/bond is set but he is slaving at 2-3 jobs for 8 dollars per hour, with no right to vacation and a wife who's expecting but won't have any right to maternity leave --  and cannot afford the bail/bond? ASAP could afford his bail obviously, but what happens with the ones who can't afford it?

Judges don't determine probable cause at the time of arrest, unless we're talking about the issuance of a warrant.   The officer has cause and makes the arrest.  A person is booked.  They then go in front of a judge or magistrate who sets the bail based on 1. the crime 2. access to funds 3. likelihood of fleeing 4. likelihood of committing another crime.  If you don't have the money, then you go to a bail bondsmen who will provide funds for collateral (car, mortgage note, etc.).  

Spiritual_Chaos

Canada

Haha, Trump talks about it. This is amazing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/video/trump-already-started-working-with-sweden-for-release-of-adollarap-rocky/vi-AAEzRO3

I like how they still think they can make the swedish government (or the king, who knows) go in and overrule the justice system or whatever the US is used to to release this guy. Or at least they think the american people is stupid enough to believe that is how it works.

"Trump has told those fuckers in Sweden to release ASAP, so now they gonna do it folks. Lock him not up! Lock him not up!"

Spiritual_Chaos

Canada

Meltdown99 said:

At least in the US they are at least offered an opportunity to leave jail while the police and prosecutors work on the case...sounds like Sweden made an arrest without even an investigation.

 What if there is risk that the suspect will harm the investigation? Or that he/she will flee the country?

"Sweden made an arrest without even an investigation" And your showing you ignorance again, or not caring to think about it. No need for that. It's not needed. This is not how Sweden works. 

mrussel1

U.S.A.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Haha, Trump talks about it. This is amazing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/video/trump-already-started-working-with-sweden-for-release-of-adollarap-rocky/vi-AAEzRO3

I like how they still think they can make the swedish government (or the king, who knows) go in and overrule the justice system or whatever the US is used to to release this guy. Or at least they think the american people is stupid enough to believe that is how it works.

"Trump has told those fuckers in Sweden to release ASAP, so now they gonna do it folks. Lock him not up! Lock him not up!"

What are you going to say when he is released?  Will that be embarrassing?

Spiritual_Chaos

Canada

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

josevolution said:

Meltdown99 said:

josevolution said:

Please there’s hundreds of children being held in cages at the border for months on end , I’m not talking adults just the kids what crimes have they’ve committed ?

There is an entire immigration thread to discuss that.  To answer your question, they have not...they are victims of irresponsible parents and government.

Really I must of missed that threat , people are being held just the same the lol people get killed here just for being black the US should not be holding its nose up to the world as a Becon of justice that’s all ..

Jose - there's a big difference between what is acceptable vs. unacceptable.  I think that's the point that's being made.  According to SC, this is appropriate under Swedish law.  Some of us think that's outrageous.  What you're pointing to are people that are doing things outside what is acceptable under the law.  

So why should you be taken into custody when charged? You have not been proven guilty yet?

Innocent until proven guilty?

SOVIET UNION 1950!

It's called probable cause, again a tenant of common law.  Then a magistrate or judge sets bail or bond, something within state guidelines typically.  

Sweden[edit]

In the criminal code of some European countries, notably Sweden, probable cause is a higher level of suspicion than "justifiable grounds" in a two level system of formal suspicion. The latter refers only to the suspect being able to and sometimes having a motive to commit the crime and in some cases witness accounts, whereas probable cause generally requires a higher degree of physical evidence and allows for longer periods of detention before trial.

So, what is the big difference other than semantics? 

In Sweden a court finds that there is probable cause and that the person which has probable cause is suspected to harm the investigation against him/her or flee from being interrogated/trial etc - he can be put in detention. Otherwise they are set free, and the investigation might show they are innocent or a trial will be set.

1. What happens if a person is suspected of harming the investigation in the US? Or are at risk of fleeing?

2. What happens if a person is suspected of assault, and a bail/bond is set but he is slaving at 2-3 jobs for 8 dollars per hour, with no right to vacation and a wife who's expecting but won't have any right to maternity leave --  and cannot afford the bail/bond? ASAP could afford his bail obviously, but what happens with the ones who can't afford it?

Judges don't determine probable cause at the time of arrest, unless we're talking about the issuance of a warrant.   The officer has cause and makes the arrest.  A person is booked.  They then go in front of a judge or magistrate who sets the bail based on 1. the crime 2. access to funds 3. likelihood of fleeing 4. likelihood of committing another crime.  If you don't have the money, then you go to a bail bondsmen who will provide funds for collateral (car, mortgage note, etc.).  

What if he's homeless or have not one dime, then the bail is $0?

And :

1. What happens if a person is suspected of harming the investigation in the US? Or are at risk of fleeing?

Spiritual_Chaos

Canada

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

pjhawks said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

The US State Department has sent one of its top politicians to Sweden to discuss the arrested rap partner ASAP Rocky with the Swedish government.

Jan Hallenberg, at the Foreign Policy Institute, calls it extremely unusual.

 - The superpower always assumes that their system is superior and that everyone else should fall in line.

ah so you are ok with your government holding a black man in jail for 3 weeks with no charges. good to know

Why are you focusing on him being black?

You are undermining your own argument with that sleeze.

One can only assume race is a factor based on the rampant racism uptick in Sweden.

Nope, one can not "only assume". You don't know enough to "only assume" anything regarding this or the swedish justice system.

One can only assume that you are in denial about Sweden’s prolific racism and anti-migration mentality.

Ok, buddy

OnWis97

Canada

I haven't read a ton of this thread because whenever I open the page, it has about a million new replies.  A few notes about that:

• Given that this is mostly a left-wing page, this feels like (admittedly anecdotal) evidence that left-wing Americans are just as patriotic/nationalistic/jingoistic as right-wing Americans.  Of course this is a very white left-wing group.
• America is #1! is kind of unifying, at least among American whites (or, rather, American Pearl Jam Fans).

I do think American exceptionalism serves us poorly at times.  It's OK (well, preferable) to be patriotic and open to criticism of your country.  Love it or make it better.

mrussel1

U.S.A.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

josevolution said:

Meltdown99 said:

josevolution said:

Please there’s hundreds of children being held in cages at the border for months on end , I’m not talking adults just the kids what crimes have they’ve committed ?

There is an entire immigration thread to discuss that.  To answer your question, they have not...they are victims of irresponsible parents and government.

Really I must of missed that threat , people are being held just the same the lol people get killed here just for being black the US should not be holding its nose up to the world as a Becon of justice that’s all ..

Jose - there's a big difference between what is acceptable vs. unacceptable.  I think that's the point that's being made.  According to SC, this is appropriate under Swedish law.  Some of us think that's outrageous.  What you're pointing to are people that are doing things outside what is acceptable under the law.  

So why should you be taken into custody when charged? You have not been proven guilty yet?

Innocent until proven guilty?

SOVIET UNION 1950!

It's called probable cause, again a tenant of common law.  Then a magistrate or judge sets bail or bond, something within state guidelines typically.  

Sweden[edit]

In the criminal code of some European countries, notably Sweden, probable cause is a higher level of suspicion than "justifiable grounds" in a two level system of formal suspicion. The latter refers only to the suspect being able to and sometimes having a motive to commit the crime and in some cases witness accounts, whereas probable cause generally requires a higher degree of physical evidence and allows for longer periods of detention before trial.

So, what is the big difference other than semantics? 

In Sweden a court finds that there is probable cause and that the person which has probable cause is suspected to harm the investigation against him/her or flee from being interrogated/trial etc - he can be put in detention. Otherwise they are set free, and the investigation might show they are innocent or a trial will be set.

1. What happens if a person is suspected of harming the investigation in the US? Or are at risk of fleeing?

2. What happens if a person is suspected of assault, and a bail/bond is set but he is slaving at 2-3 jobs for 8 dollars per hour, with no right to vacation and a wife who's expecting but won't have any right to maternity leave --  and cannot afford the bail/bond? ASAP could afford his bail obviously, but what happens with the ones who can't afford it?

Judges don't determine probable cause at the time of arrest, unless we're talking about the issuance of a warrant.   The officer has cause and makes the arrest.  A person is booked.  They then go in front of a judge or magistrate who sets the bail based on 1. the crime 2. access to funds 3. likelihood of fleeing 4. likelihood of committing another crime.  If you don't have the money, then you go to a bail bondsmen who will provide funds for collateral (car, mortgage note, etc.).  

What if he's homeless or have not one dime, then the bail is $0?

And :

1. What happens if a person is suspected of harming the investigation in the US? Or are at risk of fleeing?

Fleeing or capital crimes will be no bail, same could be if you are a repeat offender, likely to commit another crime.  Epstein is a good example.  He is considered a repeat offender, so no bail.  When Manafort was trying to tamper and obstruct, he had his home detention revoked and he was incarcerated.  
I don't know about homeless people.  Hell, they may intentionally not make bail.  

lastexitlondon

Anywhere other than planet earth

Do you all ever think  lets not bother arguing  because  nobody seems to change their  views  so why keep going on . It never  gets anywhere from what i see.

mrussel1

U.S.A.

lastexitlondon said:

Do you all ever think  lets not bother arguing  because  nobody seems to change their  views  so why keep going on . It never  gets anywhere from what i see.

Might as well close up the boards if the goal is to change minds.  

Spiritual_Chaos

Canada

mrussel1 said:

lastexitlondon said:

Do you all ever think  lets not bother arguing  because  nobody seems to change their  views  so why keep going on . It never  gets anywhere from what i see.

Might as well close up the boards if the goal is to change minds.  

YOU ARE IS A GREAT SONG

lastexitlondon

Anywhere other than planet earth

Well  surely  the  point of debate is to open minds. But here minds get more and more closed from  what i see. Its like always. People  only like the  sound of their own voice. Not really the  point mate

lastexitlondon

Anywhere other than planet earth

mrussel1 said:

lastexitlondon said:

Do you all ever think  lets not bother arguing  because  nobody seems to change their  views  so why keep going on . It never  gets anywhere from what i see.

Might as well close up the boards if the goal is to change minds.  

mrussel1 said:

lastexitlondon said:

Do you all ever think  lets not bother arguing  because  nobody seems to change their  views  so why keep going on . It never  gets anywhere from what i see.

Might as well close up the boards if the goal is to change minds.  

Views. Not minds

mrussel1

U.S.A.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

lastexitlondon said:

Do you all ever think  lets not bother arguing  because  nobody seems to change their  views  so why keep going on . It never  gets anywhere from what i see.

Might as well close up the boards if the goal is to change minds.  

YOU ARE IS A GREAT SONG

I like it. 

Spiritual_Chaos

Canada

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

lastexitlondon said:

Do you all ever think  lets not bother arguing  because  nobody seems to change their  views  so why keep going on . It never  gets anywhere from what i see.

Might as well close up the boards if the goal is to change minds.  

YOU ARE IS A GREAT SONG

I like it. 

Good. Then we are all in agreement. 

Great!



Lock the thread.

Spiritual_Chaos

Canada

WAIT A MINUTE!

Currently, the majority of people held in American jails (as opposed to state and federal prisons) are awaiting trial – people our criminal justice system presumes to be innocent. Between 1999 and 2014, the number of people held in jail before trial ballooned, accounting for 99% of the total growth of America’s jailhouse population. About 65% of people on any given day in local jails are awaiting trial because they cannot afford bail.

Low-income individuals and people of color face greater difficulties posting bail and securing pre-trial release. According to the Prison Policy Initiative, black men and women ages 23 to 39 held at local jails had median earnings between $568 and $900 a month prior to arrest. The median bail for a felony arrest is $10,000, an exorbitant sum that overwhelmingly forces arrestees and their families into the clutches of bail bond agents.


THIS DOESN'T SOUND LIKE PRESUMED INNOCENT AMERICA!

It's almost like the rich get a great way to get out of jail and pay of witnesses, but the poor are a class below in the eyes of the US justice system.

In Sweden everyone is treated the same.

mrussel1

U.S.A.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

WAIT A MINUTE!

Currently, the majority of people held in American jails (as opposed to state and federal prisons) are awaiting trial – people our criminal justice system presumes to be innocent. Between 1999 and 2014, the number of people held in jail before trial ballooned, accounting for 99% of the total growth of America’s jailhouse population. About 65% of people on any given day in local jails are awaiting trial because they cannot afford bail.

Low-income individuals and people of color face greater difficulties posting bail and securing pre-trial release. According to the Prison Policy Initiative, black men and women ages 23 to 39 held at local jails had median earnings between $568 and $900 a month prior to arrest. The median bail for a felony arrest is $10,000, an exorbitant sum that overwhelmingly forces arrestees and their families into the clutches of bail bond agents.


THIS DOESN'T SOUND LIKE PRESUMED INNOCENT AMERICA!

It's almost like the rich get a great way to get out of jail and pay of witnesses, but the poor are a class below in the eyes of the US justice system.

In Sweden everyone is treated the same.

The whole point of bail is that skipping on it has to cause financial pain.  If you can't make bail then you can't.  But it's set.  But to be clear, if you are in jail awaiting trial, that means you've been charged.  The 4th amendment also guarantees you the right to a speedy trial.  Felony bail of 10k seems completely reasonable to me.  

F Me In The Brain

U.S.A.

Annafalk said:

I like this beer  

What a beautiful gesture in a minefield of bloody horrors! 

I like this actress: