The all-purpose heavy duty Climate Chaos thread (sprinkled with hope).

HughFreakingDillon

the alphabet song was changed?

mickeyrat

HughFreakingDillon said:

the alphabet song was changed?

referenced from wiki entry of the alphabet song

https://www.abc15.com/news/national/the-alphabet-song-was-changed-and-people-on-social-media-were-not-happy

Lerxst1992

mickeyrat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

the alphabet song was changed?

referenced from wiki entry of the alphabet song

https://www.abc15.com/news/national/the-alphabet-song-was-changed-and-people-on-social-media-were-not-happy

I’m gonna petition Ed to slow down Ledbetter even more, bc this is what I think he’s saying…

https://youtu.be/xLd22ha_-VU


 

mickeyrat

US: Drought-stricken states to get less from Colorado River

https://apnews.com/article/mexico-arizona-lakes-colorado-river-cc37e49759fabe8236a081286dfc61ee

tempo_n_groove

mickeyrat said:

US: Drought-stricken states to get less from Colorado River

https://apnews.com/article/mexico-arizona-lakes-colorado-river-cc37e49759fabe8236a081286dfc61ee

So when this happened in 2008ish? The farmers started drilling wells to get the water they needed.  This ended up having grounds sinking from the draining of the water.

California gave $500 to people to tear out their lawns.

AZ changed their prisons water system by putting grey water in the toilets rather than fresh.

Most if not more golf courses should be watered w reclaimed water.

brianlux

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

US: Drought-stricken states to get less from Colorado River

https://apnews.com/article/mexico-arizona-lakes-colorado-river-cc37e49759fabe8236a081286dfc61ee

So when this happened in 2008ish? The farmers started drilling wells to get the water they needed.  This ended up having grounds sinking from the draining of the water.

California gave $500 to people to tear out their lawns.

AZ changed their prisons water system by putting grey water in the toilets rather than fresh.

Most if not more golf courses should be watered w reclaimed water.

I didn't know parts of California were paying people to tear out lawns, but for every step forward this state makes in terms of water, we take two or three or four back.  Prime example:  I had to go down to Sacramento today for another Mohs surgery (skin cancer) and heading down there, was shocked yet again to see the lower foothills around Folsom being rapidly transformed from what was very recently large tracts of open space into massive development.  It literally made me shudder to see.  And then at the clinic, I overheard someone who drove down I-50 from the north into Sac talking about how appalled she was by the massive housing and commercial development going on right now in the great Sacramento Valley.  She added, "Where are they going to get all the water for these people and these businesses?" 
Exactly.  This is a disaster in the making, it is prevalent in California, and the problems it will create will be felt beyond the borders of this state.  Madness and greed have taken over.

mickeyrat

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

US: Drought-stricken states to get less from Colorado River

https://apnews.com/article/mexico-arizona-lakes-colorado-river-cc37e49759fabe8236a081286dfc61ee

So when this happened in 2008ish? The farmers started drilling wells to get the water they needed.  This ended up having grounds sinking from the draining of the water.

California gave $500 to people to tear out their lawns.

AZ changed their prisons water system by putting grey water in the toilets rather than fresh.

Most if not more golf courses should be watered w reclaimed water.

I didn't know parts of California were paying people to tear out lawns, but for every step forward this state makes in terms of water, we take two or three or four back.  Prime example:  I had to go down to Sacramento today for another Mohs surgery (skin cancer) and heading down there, was shocked yet again to see the lower foothills around Folsom being rapidly transformed from what was very recently large tracts of open space into massive development.  It literally made me shudder to see.  And then at the clinic, I overheard someone who drove down I-50 from the north into Sac talking about how appalled she was by the massive housing and commercial development going on right now in the great Sacramento Valley.  She added, "Where are they going to get all the water for these people and these businesses?" 
Exactly.  This is a disaster in the making, it is prevalent in California, and the problems it will create will be felt beyond the borders of this state.  Madness and greed have taken over.

desalination,  seems California's only alternative at this poiint.

Halifax2TheMax

Seems more and more going to less and less.

Largest private land owners in the United States in 2021

	1
Name	Emmerson family
Acres	2,330,000 2,330,000
Locations	Calif./Ore./Wash.
Main source of wealth	Lumber
	2
Name	John Malone
Acres	2,200,000 2,200,000
Locations	Various
Main source of wealth	Cable TV
	3
Name	Reed family
Acres	2,100,000 2,100,000
Locations	West and South
Main source of wealth	Lumber
	4
Name	Ted Turner
Acres	2,000,000 2,000,000
Locations	N.M./Mont./Midwest
Main source of wealth	Cable TV
	5
Name	Kroenke Ranches
Acres	1,627,000 1,627,000
Locations	West and Texas
Main source of wealth	Real estate, sports teams
	6
Name	Irving family
Acres	1,267,792 1,267,792
Locations	Maine
Main source of wealth	Lumber, frozen food, transportation
	7
Name	Peter Buck family
Acres	1,236,000 1,236,000
Locations	Maine
Main source of wealth	Subway sandwich shops
	8
Name	Brad Kelley
Acres	1,139,984 1,139,984
Locations	N.M./Tex./Southeast
Main source of wealth	Discount cigarettes
	9
Name	Singleton family
Acres	1,100,000 1,100,000
Locations	Calif./N.M.
Main source of wealth	Technology
	10
Name	King Ranch heirs
Acres	911,215 911,215
Locations	Calif./Fla./Tex.
Main source of wealth	Ranching, agribusiness
Name	OTHER NOTABLES
Acres
Locations
Main source of wealth
	24
Name	Jeff Bezos
Acres	420,000 420,000
Locations	Tex.
Main source of wealth	Amazon
	47
Name	Bill Gates
Acres	268,984 268,984
Locations	Various
Main source of wealth	Microsoft
	48
Name	Taylor Sheridan
Acres	266,255 266,255
Locations	Tex.
Main source of wealth	Movies and TV

Source: The Land Report

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/08/16/ranch-land-west-billionaires/

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

US: Drought-stricken states to get less from Colorado River

https://apnews.com/article/mexico-arizona-lakes-colorado-river-cc37e49759fabe8236a081286dfc61ee

So when this happened in 2008ish? The farmers started drilling wells to get the water they needed.  This ended up having grounds sinking from the draining of the water.

California gave $500 to people to tear out their lawns.

AZ changed their prisons water system by putting grey water in the toilets rather than fresh.

Most if not more golf courses should be watered w reclaimed water.

I didn't know parts of California were paying people to tear out lawns, but for every step forward this state makes in terms of water, we take two or three or four back.  Prime example:  I had to go down to Sacramento today for another Mohs surgery (skin cancer) and heading down there, was shocked yet again to see the lower foothills around Folsom being rapidly transformed from what was very recently large tracts of open space into massive development.  It literally made me shudder to see.  And then at the clinic, I overheard someone who drove down I-50 from the north into Sac talking about how appalled she was by the massive housing and commercial development going on right now in the great Sacramento Valley.  She added, "Where are they going to get all the water for these people and these businesses?" 
Exactly.  This is a disaster in the making, it is prevalent in California, and the problems it will create will be felt beyond the borders of this state.  Madness and greed have taken over.

desalination,  seems California's only alternative at this poiint.

Depopulation would be my first choice, but that looks like a long shot. 

Halifax2TheMax said:

Seems more and more going to less and less.

Largest private land owners in the United States in 2021

	1
Name	Emmerson family
Acres	2,330,000 2,330,000
Locations	Calif./Ore./Wash.
Main source of wealth	Lumber
	2
Name	John Malone
Acres	2,200,000 2,200,000
Locations	Various
Main source of wealth	Cable TV
	3
Name	Reed family
Acres	2,100,000 2,100,000
Locations	West and South
Main source of wealth	Lumber
	4
Name	Ted Turner
Acres	2,000,000 2,000,000
Locations	N.M./Mont./Midwest
Main source of wealth	Cable TV
	5
Name	Kroenke Ranches
Acres	1,627,000 1,627,000
Locations	West and Texas
Main source of wealth	Real estate, sports teams
	6
Name	Irving family
Acres	1,267,792 1,267,792
Locations	Maine
Main source of wealth	Lumber, frozen food, transportation
	7
Name	Peter Buck family
Acres	1,236,000 1,236,000
Locations	Maine
Main source of wealth	Subway sandwich shops
	8
Name	Brad Kelley
Acres	1,139,984 1,139,984
Locations	N.M./Tex./Southeast
Main source of wealth	Discount cigarettes
	9
Name	Singleton family
Acres	1,100,000 1,100,000
Locations	Calif./N.M.
Main source of wealth	Technology
	10
Name	King Ranch heirs
Acres	911,215 911,215
Locations	Calif./Fla./Tex.
Main source of wealth	Ranching, agribusiness
Name	OTHER NOTABLES
Acres
Locations
Main source of wealth
	24
Name	Jeff Bezos
Acres	420,000 420,000
Locations	Tex.
Main source of wealth	Amazon
	47
Name	Bill Gates
Acres	268,984 268,984
Locations	Various
Main source of wealth	Microsoft
	48
Name	Taylor Sheridan
Acres	266,255 266,255
Locations	Tex.
Main source of wealth	Movies and TV

Source: The Land Report

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/08/16/ranch-land-west-billionaires/

Surely not this Peter Buck?!

tempo_n_groove

Ted Turner was buying up acres in Montana before it was cool.  I would expect when he dies that it all becomes a state park?

brianlux

tempo_n_groove said:

Ted Turner was buying up acres in Montana before it was cool.  I would expect when he dies that it all becomes a state park?

That would be cool, but equally excellent would be for his property, known as Turner Ranches, to continue the good work being done there:

Turner Ranches

With approximately two million acres of personal and ranch land, Ted Turner is the second largest individual landholder in North America. Turner lands are innovatively managed to unite economic viability with ecological sustainability. Turner ranches operate as working businesses, relying on bison, hunting and fishing, and ecotourism as principal enterprises. In addition, Turner ranches support many progressive environmental projects including water resource and timber management, and the reintroduction of native species to the land.

Turner Enterprises also manages over 45,000 bison across the various Turner ranches.

https://www.tedturner.com/turner-ranches/

And though he doesn't talk about Turner specifically in his book Rewilding the West,  Richard Manning explains the history of and importance of repopulating bison in that part of the country.

Ruth Rudner's A Chorus of Buffalo is also excellent:

:

mickeyrat

https://apnews.com/article/technology-electric-vehicles-pontiac-6b9fee7ca91666f765441ca879cf0ad6

 

Pontiac Climate and environment Electric vehicles

Gas-powered muscle cars drive into the sunset, turn electric

By TOM KRISHER

Today

PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — Thundering gas-powered muscle cars, for decades a fixture of American culture, will be closing in on their final Saturday-night cruises in the coming years as automakers begin replacing them with super-fast cars that run on batteries.

Stellantis' Dodge brand, long the performance flag-bearer of the company formerly known as Fiat Chrysler, is officially moving toward electricity. On Wednesday night, Dodge unveiled a battery-powered Charger Daytona SRT concept car, which is close to one that will be produced in 2024 as the sun sets on some petroleum models.

Stellantis says it will stop making gasoline versions of the Dodge Challenger and Charger muscle cars and the Chrysler 300 large car by the end of next year. The Canadian factory that makes them will be converted to electric vehicles. Other automakers are moving — or have moved — in the same direction.

General Motors has said it will build an all-electric Chevrolet Corvette. Tesla says its Model S Plaid version is the fastest production vehicle made, able to go from zero to 60 mph (97 kilometers per hour) in under 2 seconds. Audi, Mercedes, Porsche and other European automakers already have high-performance electric models on sale. And Polestar, an electric-performance spinoff from Volvo, just announced a new Polestar 6 roadster for 2026.

---

TECHNOLOGY

RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine group kicked off Instagram, Facebook

Apple warns of security flaw for iPhones, iPads and Macs

U.S. midterms bring few changes from social media companies

Amazon testing TikTok-style feed on its app, AI firm says

One reason for the industry shift is that electric vehicles are simply faster off the starting line. Their handling is typically better, too, because their heavy batteries create a low center of gravity.

Stricter government pollution requirements are another factor, too. As automakers in the U.S. face more stringent fuel-economy requirements adopted by the Biden administration and produce a broader range of EV vehicles, they will have to jettison some of their gas-fueled muscle-car models.

Tim Kuniskis, CEO of the Dodge brand, said the possibly of government fines for not meeting gas-mileage requirements hastened the shift to the electric Charger. “Compliance fines and things like that associated with a big cast-iron supercharged V8, yes, it's tough,” he said.

Still, it will take a few years for the gas-powered classics to go away.

Dodge unveils a battery-powered Charger Daytona SRT concept car (Aug. 18)(AP video: Mike Householder)

“Over the next several years, I think we’ll continue to have some internal combustion stuff, probably through most of the decade,” said Sam Abuelsamid, a research analyst at Guidehouse Insights. “But increasingly, the focus is going to be on the electric ones.”

Under new gas-mileage standards that were unveiled in April, the fleet of new vehicles will have to average around 40 miles per gallon in 2026, up from 25.4 mpg now, the EPA says. The standards are likely to become even stronger in the future, a trend that will compel U.S.-based automakers to shed some gasoline muscle cars if they are to avoid fines.

Of all major automakers, the EPA says, Stellantis had the lowest average fuel economy — 21.3 miles per gallon — and the highest average carbon dioxide emissions. So the company likely will have to eliminate some models to avoid fines. Its limited-edition Charger SRT Widebody, with a supercharged 6.2-liter Hemi Hellcat V-8, for instance, gets only 12 mpg in city driving and 21 mpg on the highway.

To many gearheads, the thought of a muscle car without noise and smells is heresy. But Kuniskis says Dodge is working hard to make the electric experience match internal combustion. The Charger, he said, will generate its own air flow to make an exhaust noise that rivals gas performance cars. And the transmission will shift gears.

When the electric Charger was driven through a garage door and entered a building Wednesday night at a racetrack in Pontiac, Michigan, it roared just like a gas muscle car.

Electric vehicles, Kuniskis said, have the potential to perform better than gas muscle cars with fast acceleration. But he said they are kind of sterile. “It doesn't have the emotion. It doesn't have the drama. It doesn't have the kind of dangerous feeling that ICE (an internal combustion engine) has when it's loud and rumbling and shifting and moving the car around.”

Kuniskis wouldn't say how fast the electric Charger will go from zero to 60 mph, but said it would be faster than the company's current petroleum performance cars. He also wouldn't say the range-per-charge for the new Challenger, but added that range isn't as important as making it a true muscle car.

Rick Nelson, the owner of Musclecar Restoration & Design in Pleasant Plains, Illinois, near Springfield, cautioned that switching from loud fuel-burning engines to quiet electricity may be a hard sell to old-timers who grew up with the sounds and smells of racing.

Nelson, 61, said he restored his first car while a teenager and spent hours at drag strips. He acknowledged that the switch to electricity is inevitable and is needed to attract a new generation that has become used to quiet speed. Still, he said, electric muscle cars won't have manual shifters, and he'll miss the smell of racing fuel at the track.

Already, Nelson said, businesses are cropping up to put electric powertrains in classic muscle cars. He has been in touch with an engineer at Tesla about retrofitting batteries and electric motors into some classics.

“Guys like me are just going to frown on it and laugh at it,” Nelson said of electric muscle cars. “But this isn’t about my generation.”

Kuniskis says the shift to electricity doesn't mean the end of the muscle car. It's just a new era.

“It' s OK,” he said. “Let us show you what the future looks like.”

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

https://apnews.com/article/technology-electric-vehicles-pontiac-6b9fee7ca91666f765441ca879cf0ad6

 

Pontiac Climate and environment Electric vehicles

Gas-powered muscle cars drive into the sunset, turn electric

By TOM KRISHER

Today

PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — Thundering gas-powered muscle cars, for decades a fixture of American culture, will be closing in on their final Saturday-night cruises in the coming years as automakers begin replacing them with super-fast cars that run on batteries.

Stellantis' Dodge brand, long the performance flag-bearer of the company formerly known as Fiat Chrysler, is officially moving toward electricity. On Wednesday night, Dodge unveiled a battery-powered Charger Daytona SRT concept car, which is close to one that will be produced in 2024 as the sun sets on some petroleum models.

Stellantis says it will stop making gasoline versions of the Dodge Challenger and Charger muscle cars and the Chrysler 300 large car by the end of next year. The Canadian factory that makes them will be converted to electric vehicles. Other automakers are moving — or have moved — in the same direction.

General Motors has said it will build an all-electric Chevrolet Corvette. Tesla says its Model S Plaid version is the fastest production vehicle made, able to go from zero to 60 mph (97 kilometers per hour) in under 2 seconds. Audi, Mercedes, Porsche and other European automakers already have high-performance electric models on sale. And Polestar, an electric-performance spinoff from Volvo, just announced a new Polestar 6 roadster for 2026.

---

TECHNOLOGY

RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine group kicked off Instagram, Facebook

Apple warns of security flaw for iPhones, iPads and Macs

U.S. midterms bring few changes from social media companies

Amazon testing TikTok-style feed on its app, AI firm says

One reason for the industry shift is that electric vehicles are simply faster off the starting line. Their handling is typically better, too, because their heavy batteries create a low center of gravity.

Stricter government pollution requirements are another factor, too. As automakers in the U.S. face more stringent fuel-economy requirements adopted by the Biden administration and produce a broader range of EV vehicles, they will have to jettison some of their gas-fueled muscle-car models.

Tim Kuniskis, CEO of the Dodge brand, said the possibly of government fines for not meeting gas-mileage requirements hastened the shift to the electric Charger. “Compliance fines and things like that associated with a big cast-iron supercharged V8, yes, it's tough,” he said.

Still, it will take a few years for the gas-powered classics to go away.

Dodge unveils a battery-powered Charger Daytona SRT concept car (Aug. 18)(AP video: Mike Householder)

“Over the next several years, I think we’ll continue to have some internal combustion stuff, probably through most of the decade,” said Sam Abuelsamid, a research analyst at Guidehouse Insights. “But increasingly, the focus is going to be on the electric ones.”

Under new gas-mileage standards that were unveiled in April, the fleet of new vehicles will have to average around 40 miles per gallon in 2026, up from 25.4 mpg now, the EPA says. The standards are likely to become even stronger in the future, a trend that will compel U.S.-based automakers to shed some gasoline muscle cars if they are to avoid fines.

Of all major automakers, the EPA says, Stellantis had the lowest average fuel economy — 21.3 miles per gallon — and the highest average carbon dioxide emissions. So the company likely will have to eliminate some models to avoid fines. Its limited-edition Charger SRT Widebody, with a supercharged 6.2-liter Hemi Hellcat V-8, for instance, gets only 12 mpg in city driving and 21 mpg on the highway.

To many gearheads, the thought of a muscle car without noise and smells is heresy. But Kuniskis says Dodge is working hard to make the electric experience match internal combustion. The Charger, he said, will generate its own air flow to make an exhaust noise that rivals gas performance cars. And the transmission will shift gears.

When the electric Charger was driven through a garage door and entered a building Wednesday night at a racetrack in Pontiac, Michigan, it roared just like a gas muscle car.

Electric vehicles, Kuniskis said, have the potential to perform better than gas muscle cars with fast acceleration. But he said they are kind of sterile. “It doesn't have the emotion. It doesn't have the drama. It doesn't have the kind of dangerous feeling that ICE (an internal combustion engine) has when it's loud and rumbling and shifting and moving the car around.”

Kuniskis wouldn't say how fast the electric Charger will go from zero to 60 mph, but said it would be faster than the company's current petroleum performance cars. He also wouldn't say the range-per-charge for the new Challenger, but added that range isn't as important as making it a true muscle car.

Rick Nelson, the owner of Musclecar Restoration & Design in Pleasant Plains, Illinois, near Springfield, cautioned that switching from loud fuel-burning engines to quiet electricity may be a hard sell to old-timers who grew up with the sounds and smells of racing.

Nelson, 61, said he restored his first car while a teenager and spent hours at drag strips. He acknowledged that the switch to electricity is inevitable and is needed to attract a new generation that has become used to quiet speed. Still, he said, electric muscle cars won't have manual shifters, and he'll miss the smell of racing fuel at the track.

Already, Nelson said, businesses are cropping up to put electric powertrains in classic muscle cars. He has been in touch with an engineer at Tesla about retrofitting batteries and electric motors into some classics.

“Guys like me are just going to frown on it and laugh at it,” Nelson said of electric muscle cars. “But this isn’t about my generation.”

Kuniskis says the shift to electricity doesn't mean the end of the muscle car. It's just a new era.

“It' s OK,” he said. “Let us show you what the future looks like.”

What's ironic is that, at least where I live, gas powered muscle cars seem to have made a comeback.  I don't know how much of that is due to Bay Area suburbanites moving to (or retiring and moving to) this area.  It's just strange seeing so many here these day.

I suppose you could also say that it's ironic that once upon a time (a long, long time ago), I drove a V-8 Chevy Malibu and had friends who were into muscle cars.  That was another lifetime ago!

tempo_n_groove

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ted Turner was buying up acres in Montana before it was cool.  I would expect when he dies that it all becomes a state park?

That would be cool, but equally excellent would be for his property, known as Turner Ranches, to continue the good work being done there:

Turner Ranches

With approximately two million acres of personal and ranch land, Ted Turner is the second largest individual landholder in North America. Turner lands are innovatively managed to unite economic viability with ecological sustainability. Turner ranches operate as working businesses, relying on bison, hunting and fishing, and ecotourism as principal enterprises. In addition, Turner ranches support many progressive environmental projects including water resource and timber management, and the reintroduction of native species to the land.

Turner Enterprises also manages over 45,000 bison across the various Turner ranches.

https://www.tedturner.com/turner-ranches/

And though he doesn't talk about Turner specifically in his book Rewilding the West,  Richard Manning explains the history of and importance of repopulating bison in that part of the country.

Ruth Rudner's A Chorus of Buffalo is also excellent:

:

Oh how cool.  I do hope that his lands do continue to do good then if they don't become State Parks!

tempo_n_groove

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

https://apnews.com/article/technology-electric-vehicles-pontiac-6b9fee7ca91666f765441ca879cf0ad6

 

Pontiac Climate and environment Electric vehicles

Gas-powered muscle cars drive into the sunset, turn electric

By TOM KRISHER

Today

PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — Thundering gas-powered muscle cars, for decades a fixture of American culture, will be closing in on their final Saturday-night cruises in the coming years as automakers begin replacing them with super-fast cars that run on batteries.

Stellantis' Dodge brand, long the performance flag-bearer of the company formerly known as Fiat Chrysler, is officially moving toward electricity. On Wednesday night, Dodge unveiled a battery-powered Charger Daytona SRT concept car, which is close to one that will be produced in 2024 as the sun sets on some petroleum models.

Stellantis says it will stop making gasoline versions of the Dodge Challenger and Charger muscle cars and the Chrysler 300 large car by the end of next year. The Canadian factory that makes them will be converted to electric vehicles. Other automakers are moving — or have moved — in the same direction.

General Motors has said it will build an all-electric Chevrolet Corvette. Tesla says its Model S Plaid version is the fastest production vehicle made, able to go from zero to 60 mph (97 kilometers per hour) in under 2 seconds. Audi, Mercedes, Porsche and other European automakers already have high-performance electric models on sale. And Polestar, an electric-performance spinoff from Volvo, just announced a new Polestar 6 roadster for 2026.

---

TECHNOLOGY

RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine group kicked off Instagram, Facebook

Apple warns of security flaw for iPhones, iPads and Macs

U.S. midterms bring few changes from social media companies

Amazon testing TikTok-style feed on its app, AI firm says

One reason for the industry shift is that electric vehicles are simply faster off the starting line. Their handling is typically better, too, because their heavy batteries create a low center of gravity.

Stricter government pollution requirements are another factor, too. As automakers in the U.S. face more stringent fuel-economy requirements adopted by the Biden administration and produce a broader range of EV vehicles, they will have to jettison some of their gas-fueled muscle-car models.

Tim Kuniskis, CEO of the Dodge brand, said the possibly of government fines for not meeting gas-mileage requirements hastened the shift to the electric Charger. “Compliance fines and things like that associated with a big cast-iron supercharged V8, yes, it's tough,” he said.

Still, it will take a few years for the gas-powered classics to go away.

Dodge unveils a battery-powered Charger Daytona SRT concept car (Aug. 18)(AP video: Mike Householder)

“Over the next several years, I think we’ll continue to have some internal combustion stuff, probably through most of the decade,” said Sam Abuelsamid, a research analyst at Guidehouse Insights. “But increasingly, the focus is going to be on the electric ones.”

Under new gas-mileage standards that were unveiled in April, the fleet of new vehicles will have to average around 40 miles per gallon in 2026, up from 25.4 mpg now, the EPA says. The standards are likely to become even stronger in the future, a trend that will compel U.S.-based automakers to shed some gasoline muscle cars if they are to avoid fines.

Of all major automakers, the EPA says, Stellantis had the lowest average fuel economy — 21.3 miles per gallon — and the highest average carbon dioxide emissions. So the company likely will have to eliminate some models to avoid fines. Its limited-edition Charger SRT Widebody, with a supercharged 6.2-liter Hemi Hellcat V-8, for instance, gets only 12 mpg in city driving and 21 mpg on the highway.

To many gearheads, the thought of a muscle car without noise and smells is heresy. But Kuniskis says Dodge is working hard to make the electric experience match internal combustion. The Charger, he said, will generate its own air flow to make an exhaust noise that rivals gas performance cars. And the transmission will shift gears.

When the electric Charger was driven through a garage door and entered a building Wednesday night at a racetrack in Pontiac, Michigan, it roared just like a gas muscle car.

Electric vehicles, Kuniskis said, have the potential to perform better than gas muscle cars with fast acceleration. But he said they are kind of sterile. “It doesn't have the emotion. It doesn't have the drama. It doesn't have the kind of dangerous feeling that ICE (an internal combustion engine) has when it's loud and rumbling and shifting and moving the car around.”

Kuniskis wouldn't say how fast the electric Charger will go from zero to 60 mph, but said it would be faster than the company's current petroleum performance cars. He also wouldn't say the range-per-charge for the new Challenger, but added that range isn't as important as making it a true muscle car.

Rick Nelson, the owner of Musclecar Restoration & Design in Pleasant Plains, Illinois, near Springfield, cautioned that switching from loud fuel-burning engines to quiet electricity may be a hard sell to old-timers who grew up with the sounds and smells of racing.

Nelson, 61, said he restored his first car while a teenager and spent hours at drag strips. He acknowledged that the switch to electricity is inevitable and is needed to attract a new generation that has become used to quiet speed. Still, he said, electric muscle cars won't have manual shifters, and he'll miss the smell of racing fuel at the track.

Already, Nelson said, businesses are cropping up to put electric powertrains in classic muscle cars. He has been in touch with an engineer at Tesla about retrofitting batteries and electric motors into some classics.

“Guys like me are just going to frown on it and laugh at it,” Nelson said of electric muscle cars. “But this isn’t about my generation.”

Kuniskis says the shift to electricity doesn't mean the end of the muscle car. It's just a new era.

“It' s OK,” he said. “Let us show you what the future looks like.”

What's ironic is that, at least where I live, gas powered muscle cars seem to have made a comeback.  I don't know how much of that is due to Bay Area suburbanites moving to (or retiring and moving to) this area.  It's just strange seeing so many here these day.

I suppose you could also say that it's ironic that once upon a time (a long, long time ago), I drove a V-8 Chevy Malibu and had friends who were into muscle cars.  That was another lifetime ago!

Nice to see the American muscle cars doing what Lamborghini, Ferrari and McLaren already are doing, going electric.

Brian, that resurgence should happen one more go around with the 80's cars then after that I think we should be done unless we have a Fast and the Furious revival and everyone wants Civics and Supras?

Lerxst1992

https://apnews.com/article/technology-electric-vehicles-pontiac-6b9fee7ca91666f765441ca879cf0ad6

 

Pontiac Climate and environment Electric vehicles

Gas-powered muscle cars drive into the sunset, turn electric

By TOM KRISHER

Today

---

TECHNOLOGY

RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine group kicked off Instagram, Facebook

Apple warns of security flaw for iPhones, iPads and Macs

U.S. midterms bring few changes from social media companies

Amazon testing TikTok-style feed on its app, AI firm says

One reason for the industry shift is that electric vehicles are simply faster off the starting line. Their handling is typically better, too, because their heavy batteries create a low center of gravity.

and more deaths,
that, they forgot to mention…

EVs are 30%heavier, faster acceleration, less safe, destroy roads faster, have batteries that are toxic to the earth and in current tech, run on fossil fuels. Getting “average” drivers to fall in love with EVs exceptional acceleration is not good for the environment nor our safety. Focus should be on replacing coal and nat gas power plants with wind and solar, then bring on widespread use of EVs, once the battery problems are fixed. Doing it before the power generation tech is ready is bad for the environment, when considering all factors such as road replacement, batteries and coal fired plants. Now we all can pretend to be Max Verstappen while driving to stop and shop? Get outta my way. Fast.

My frustration is that EVs take up a lot of attention in the important push to improve the climate, including some of  the new incentives signed into law. EVs monopolize discussions in places like this. The funding that EVs have taken away from the solar and wind subsidies in the new law is a net negative for the environment, that money should have went to generating power to replace gas and coal. How can something that made Musk the wealthiest human be good for the planet?

People who currently drive SUVs are falling in love with the idea of new electric F150. So this desire to “upsell” and “upbuy” to performance cars and trucks is detrimental to the cause. Muscle cars exasperate the problem.

mickeyrat

I bet you're fun at parties

brianlux

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

https://apnews.com/article/technology-electric-vehicles-pontiac-6b9fee7ca91666f765441ca879cf0ad6

 

Pontiac Climate and environment Electric vehicles

Gas-powered muscle cars drive into the sunset, turn electric

By TOM KRISHER

Today

PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — Thundering gas-powered muscle cars, for decades a fixture of American culture, will be closing in on their final Saturday-night cruises in the coming years as automakers begin replacing them with super-fast cars that run on batteries.

Stellantis' Dodge brand, long the performance flag-bearer of the company formerly known as Fiat Chrysler, is officially moving toward electricity. On Wednesday night, Dodge unveiled a battery-powered Charger Daytona SRT concept car, which is close to one that will be produced in 2024 as the sun sets on some petroleum models.

Stellantis says it will stop making gasoline versions of the Dodge Challenger and Charger muscle cars and the Chrysler 300 large car by the end of next year. The Canadian factory that makes them will be converted to electric vehicles. Other automakers are moving — or have moved — in the same direction.

General Motors has said it will build an all-electric Chevrolet Corvette. Tesla says its Model S Plaid version is the fastest production vehicle made, able to go from zero to 60 mph (97 kilometers per hour) in under 2 seconds. Audi, Mercedes, Porsche and other European automakers already have high-performance electric models on sale. And Polestar, an electric-performance spinoff from Volvo, just announced a new Polestar 6 roadster for 2026.

---

TECHNOLOGY

RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine group kicked off Instagram, Facebook

Apple warns of security flaw for iPhones, iPads and Macs

U.S. midterms bring few changes from social media companies

Amazon testing TikTok-style feed on its app, AI firm says

One reason for the industry shift is that electric vehicles are simply faster off the starting line. Their handling is typically better, too, because their heavy batteries create a low center of gravity.

Stricter government pollution requirements are another factor, too. As automakers in the U.S. face more stringent fuel-economy requirements adopted by the Biden administration and produce a broader range of EV vehicles, they will have to jettison some of their gas-fueled muscle-car models.

Tim Kuniskis, CEO of the Dodge brand, said the possibly of government fines for not meeting gas-mileage requirements hastened the shift to the electric Charger. “Compliance fines and things like that associated with a big cast-iron supercharged V8, yes, it's tough,” he said.

Still, it will take a few years for the gas-powered classics to go away.

Dodge unveils a battery-powered Charger Daytona SRT concept car (Aug. 18)(AP video: Mike Householder)

“Over the next several years, I think we’ll continue to have some internal combustion stuff, probably through most of the decade,” said Sam Abuelsamid, a research analyst at Guidehouse Insights. “But increasingly, the focus is going to be on the electric ones.”

Under new gas-mileage standards that were unveiled in April, the fleet of new vehicles will have to average around 40 miles per gallon in 2026, up from 25.4 mpg now, the EPA says. The standards are likely to become even stronger in the future, a trend that will compel U.S.-based automakers to shed some gasoline muscle cars if they are to avoid fines.

Of all major automakers, the EPA says, Stellantis had the lowest average fuel economy — 21.3 miles per gallon — and the highest average carbon dioxide emissions. So the company likely will have to eliminate some models to avoid fines. Its limited-edition Charger SRT Widebody, with a supercharged 6.2-liter Hemi Hellcat V-8, for instance, gets only 12 mpg in city driving and 21 mpg on the highway.

To many gearheads, the thought of a muscle car without noise and smells is heresy. But Kuniskis says Dodge is working hard to make the electric experience match internal combustion. The Charger, he said, will generate its own air flow to make an exhaust noise that rivals gas performance cars. And the transmission will shift gears.

When the electric Charger was driven through a garage door and entered a building Wednesday night at a racetrack in Pontiac, Michigan, it roared just like a gas muscle car.

Electric vehicles, Kuniskis said, have the potential to perform better than gas muscle cars with fast acceleration. But he said they are kind of sterile. “It doesn't have the emotion. It doesn't have the drama. It doesn't have the kind of dangerous feeling that ICE (an internal combustion engine) has when it's loud and rumbling and shifting and moving the car around.”

Kuniskis wouldn't say how fast the electric Charger will go from zero to 60 mph, but said it would be faster than the company's current petroleum performance cars. He also wouldn't say the range-per-charge for the new Challenger, but added that range isn't as important as making it a true muscle car.

Rick Nelson, the owner of Musclecar Restoration & Design in Pleasant Plains, Illinois, near Springfield, cautioned that switching from loud fuel-burning engines to quiet electricity may be a hard sell to old-timers who grew up with the sounds and smells of racing.

Nelson, 61, said he restored his first car while a teenager and spent hours at drag strips. He acknowledged that the switch to electricity is inevitable and is needed to attract a new generation that has become used to quiet speed. Still, he said, electric muscle cars won't have manual shifters, and he'll miss the smell of racing fuel at the track.

Already, Nelson said, businesses are cropping up to put electric powertrains in classic muscle cars. He has been in touch with an engineer at Tesla about retrofitting batteries and electric motors into some classics.

“Guys like me are just going to frown on it and laugh at it,” Nelson said of electric muscle cars. “But this isn’t about my generation.”

Kuniskis says the shift to electricity doesn't mean the end of the muscle car. It's just a new era.

“It' s OK,” he said. “Let us show you what the future looks like.”

What's ironic is that, at least where I live, gas powered muscle cars seem to have made a comeback.  I don't know how much of that is due to Bay Area suburbanites moving to (or retiring and moving to) this area.  It's just strange seeing so many here these day.

I suppose you could also say that it's ironic that once upon a time (a long, long time ago), I drove a V-8 Chevy Malibu and had friends who were into muscle cars.  That was another lifetime ago!

Nice to see the American muscle cars doing what Lamborghini, Ferrari and McLaren already are doing, going electric.

Brian, that resurgence should happen one more go around with the 80's cars then after that I think we should be done unless we have a Fast and the Furious revival and everyone wants Civics and Supras?

I had an 80's Dodge Tradesman that was once in beautiful shape and had hoped to keep it as kind of a "classic" vehicle but one winter the roof vent leaked in a big storm and the interior was ruined.  It was also getting really hard to find parts for and had issues no mechanic around here was willing to deal with. 
Thankfully, I have a nephew who can fix just about anything so I gave it to him about 12 or 14 years ago.  He stripped the interior, fixed the odd problems, and still uses it today up where he lives outside Seattle for recreation. 
I used to call the van Mose but my nephew gave it an even better name:  Van-Go. 

brianlux

Lerxst1992 said:

https://apnews.com/article/technology-electric-vehicles-pontiac-6b9fee7ca91666f765441ca879cf0ad6

 

Pontiac Climate and environment Electric vehicles

Gas-powered muscle cars drive into the sunset, turn electric

By TOM KRISHER

Today

---

TECHNOLOGY

RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine group kicked off Instagram, Facebook

Apple warns of security flaw for iPhones, iPads and Macs

U.S. midterms bring few changes from social media companies

Amazon testing TikTok-style feed on its app, AI firm says

One reason for the industry shift is that electric vehicles are simply faster off the starting line. Their handling is typically better, too, because their heavy batteries create a low center of gravity.

and more deaths,
that, they forgot to mention…

EVs are 30%heavier, faster acceleration, less safe, destroy roads faster, have batteries that are toxic to the earth and in current tech, run on fossil fuels. Getting “average” drivers to fall in love with EVs exceptional acceleration is not good for the environment nor our safety. Focus should be on replacing coal and nat gas power plants with wind and solar, then bring on widespread use of EVs, once the battery problems are fixed. Doing it before the power generation tech is ready is bad for the environment, when considering all factors such as road replacement, batteries and coal fired plants. Now we all can pretend to be Max Verstappen while driving to stop and shop? Get outta my way. Fast.

My frustration is that EVs take up a lot of attention in the important push to improve the climate, including some of  the new incentives signed into law. EVs monopolize discussions in places like this. The funding that EVs have taken away from the solar and wind subsidies in the new law is a net negative for the environment, that money should have went to generating power to replace gas and coal. How can something that made Musk the wealthiest human be good for the planet?

People who currently drive SUVs are falling in love with the idea of new electric F150. So this desire to “upsell” and “upbuy” to performance cars and trucks is detrimental to the cause. Muscle cars exasperate the problem.

The biggest problem is that we car a car-culture society and are hell-bent on not giving up the lifestyle that dictates that everyone has their own car and everyone drives alone.  Besides overpopulation, I would rate that- along with suburbia- as two of our biggest obstacles to overcoming environmental issues. 
Electric vehicles are a bandage.  They may be better than gas powered cars in some ways, but better the way scraping a vinyl record with cat claws is better than scraping it with a knife.

tempo_n_groove

I've been a big proponent to Alaskas conservation of the fishing industry.  When something like this happens and they weren't expecting it is a cause for alarm.

Snow crab have literally disappeared...

This happened in the 80's from overfishing the king crab but nothing like this I can remember.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/08/21/alaska-crab-climate/