Kavanaugh

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  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,263
    edited September 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    I think this is really a simple case of Trump and the GOP just not giving a shit if someone is a piece of human garbage. Trump literally surrounds himself with people like this, and is a person like this himself.

    It sickens me when I talk with people that I respect that total dismiss these claims just because they are Republicans.

    I totally believe these women in this case, but how can I know for sure?  It is scary that one or two people can come forward and take someone down.  A good thing when claims are true, not good when claims are false.  Will we be able to get good people to run in the future if they are going to subject their families to deal with false claims?

    Post edited by bootlegger10 on
  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,458
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    We're pretty good as a society at victim blaming women. It's getting better, but it was definitely completely shit in the early 80's without involving a group of privileged wealthy prep school boys. We had a tuition based catholic elementary school where I grew up that went through 6th grade, so when we got to 7th grade everyone was thrown together. Man, those kids were some of the most foul mouthed and self righteous dicks in the high school. Didn't have to deal with that type of attitude again until I went to a private college. And that was the late 90's. 
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,646
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Where are you getting the "hundreds" number from? Its not likely that there were hundreds of witnesses 35 or 36 years ago. Georgetown Prep has a current boarding and day school enrollment of 491 students. Holten Arms has a current enrollment of 655 students in grades 1 through 12. How do you know "hundreds of people were aware?" Ever been to a house or frat party, or any party with hundreds of people? Ever notice how there were multiple smaller parties going on in different parts of the house, field, room, basement, woods, etc.?

    Some people seem to lack life experience, are completely unaware of the psychology and sociology behind human behavior or just don't want to believe women. Or, if they're not convicted in a court of law, there is no validity to the allegations. Was Bill Clinton convicted? Yet y'all so willingly view him as guilty as charged. And give Trump a pass.
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  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,458
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Before the Penn State findings and the Catholic church cases, would you have believed that was happening to the extent it was with so many people involved not coming forward?
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    tbergs said:
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Before the Penn State findings and the Catholic church cases, would you have believed that was happening to the extent it was with so many people involved not coming forward?
    Good point. But those were men coming forward, not vindictive women with an axe to grind.
  • fife
    fife Posts: 3,327
    so Trump just tweeted about Avenatti and said that he is a total low-life and called him a 3rd rate lawyer.  looks really bad
  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,458
    Jason P said:
    And to be on the record, I don't think the people vetting are incompetent.  I think they are probably the best at what they do and have unlimited resources to dig up information and will use any means necessary to obtain it.
    I think the public information that keeps coming out would beg to differ. I think they are doing the type of vetting they usually do, but got burned this time because the vetting process sucks, clearly. If you've ever been involved in a full on background then it would be clear this one was shit. We do a terrible job of vetting, especially for president and SCOTUS nominees.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,458
    EdsonNascimento said:
    Realizing there would need to be a Constitutional Amendment change to make this happen, but would you liberals allow this scenario in this order:

    1)  Appoint Judge Kavanaugh immediately.
    2)  Do complete FBI investigation - if proven guilty, he is removed and we start over again.  If not guilty, life goes on
    Thanks for your clearly partisan opinion on this matter. You obviously have no issues with pushing this through. We should always just hire/appoint people with these minor types of accusations, no matter what the job.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,646
    tbergs said:
    Jason P said:
    And to be on the record, I don't think the people vetting are incompetent.  I think they are probably the best at what they do and have unlimited resources to dig up information and will use any means necessary to obtain it.
    I think the public information that keeps coming out would beg to differ. I think they are doing the type of vetting they usually do, but got burned this time because the vetting process sucks, clearly. If you've ever been involved in a full on background then it would be clear this one was shit. We do a terrible job of vetting, especially for president and SCOTUS nominees.
    The vetting was done by the Team Trump Treason Administration who the POTUS' son in law needed 4 attempts to get his security clearance application "right." So either the Team Trump Treason Administration did a real shitty job vetting Kavanaugh, because they desparately want him, and him alone, on the court, or Kavanaugh was truthful and they chose to ignore it because they knew they were going to ram his nomination through or Kavanaugh lied since day one. Which excuse do you prefer?

    Oh those pesky dem women, ruining everything.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    why do people jump to this type of response to a very obvious question... I am not saying women have to stop anything or victim blaming... is this where we are now, cant even have an honest conversation

    Girl witnesses multiple gang rapes by same group of guys... lines at the door.... she knows fully well what they are doing.... so she hangs around these scumbags for two years drinking and partying until she is victimized? And im the bad guy for asking if anybody else finds that odd? Lol, yeah ok. I give more credit to women that some of you apparently
  • njnancy
    njnancy Posts: 5,096
    dignin said:
    tbergs said:
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Before the Penn State findings and the Catholic church cases, would you have believed that was happening to the extent it was with so many people involved not coming forward?
    Good point. But those were men coming forward, not vindictive women with an axe to grind.

    Exactly.

    I have been very careful to weigh my words when I do post so that I'm not saying one side is definitively right. I can't do that anymore. Do you know how many women are feeling re-traumatized right now. I am angry and ashamed. This is real and I believe all the allegations. I find no reason to sugarcoat it anymore. This guy is like lots of guys I knew in high school and he has had a free pass for his whole life. He doesn't give a hoot about these women and that is the worst part. 

    He hasn't even evolved enough to say that he acted like an ass in school and he has changed and he is sorry for what he did. His insistence on portraying himself as a church attending, homework focused athlete who treated women with dignity is infuriating.. He is lying about little things and big things which makes me believe that he is lying about everything. 

    The bad behavior is one thing but the fact that he refuses to admit to even drinking to excess, when he belonged to the 100 Keg Club, is disqualifying. He has not been honest and that is what disqualifies him. He believes he is special, how dare anyone say otherwise. And Trump should keep his mouth shut when dealing with women and bad behavior. 

    Sorry, but I can't be objective. I find the whole situation disgusting. I will step away.
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Since your attitude essentially is “I don’t believe it because it seems to be too bad to be believed”, I think we can basically disregard it. History is full of things that were too bad to be believed until we had proof, and even in this very thread we’ve had people confirming that these sorts of events occurred. I don’t know why we should care that you personally find it hard to believe just because, as a guy, you didn’t experience it. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,893
    edited September 2018
    tbergs said:
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Before the Penn State findings and the Catholic church cases, would you have believed that was happening to the extent it was with so many people involved not coming forward?
    I guess I never thought about it. It completely depends, I don't recall the details but I just assumed the boys were isolated or with other victims when it happened, and in that case I would not expect many to come forward. Its not like a priest molested a kid in front of the whole church and they all kept quiet because they wanted to look cool.
    If it happened in front of dozens of witnesses multiple times, then yes I'd be shocked.
    Its like the US Gymnast doctor, he never molested a girl in front of dozens of others, it was always individually (and also from a person of authority like the priests, which helped subdue the claims).
    Victims not coming forward doesn't surprise me. That is common and there are many factors. Its the many, many witnesses not only not coming forward, but also just letting it happen that surprises me.
    Honestly, anyone at those parties who knew what was going on and let it happen, girl or boy, are just as disgusting to me as those involved. Afraid of being a rat or wanting to be popular is no excuse to let girls get gang raped on a regular bases, I don't care if it was upper class in the 80s or not. If true, 100% of those people at the parties are disgusting animals. Which is why it is hard to believe without questioning it was as bad as described without 1 person coming forward.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,893
    edited September 2018
    oftenreading said:
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Since your attitude essentially is “I don’t believe it because it seems to be too bad to be believed”, I think we can basically disregard it. History is full of things that were too bad to be believed until we had proof, and even in this very thread we’ve had people confirming that these sorts of events occurred. I don’t know why we should care that you personally find it hard to believe just because, as a guy, you didn’t experience it. 
    I didnt say I don't believe it. I said it's hard to believe, and worth questioning the source. I never said disregard it.
    I think it means holding off judgment until more information can be found out. If the parties were really as described, it should not be difficult at all to find countless witnesses.
    And again comes down to 2 choices: Either dozens of witnesses are okay with what was going on to the point where not a single person ever reported this, or the story is exaggerated or untrue.
    So do you think 1 person is exaggerating what happened, or dozens (including women), possibly more, were okay letting girls get gang raped?
    Either way, seems like it would be easy to prove and I still say hold judgment until more is known about it.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,646
    my2hands said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    why do people jump to this type of response to a very obvious question... I am not saying women have to stop anything or victim blaming... is this where we are now, cant even have an honest conversation

    Girl witnesses multiple gang rapes by same group of guys... lines at the door.... she knows fully well what they are doing.... so she hangs around these scumbags for two years drinking and partying until she is victimized? And im the bad guy for asking if anybody else finds that odd? Lol, yeah ok. I give more credit to women that some of you apparently
    Read the WaPo article on the high school girl raped in Texas. It might help you understand the "why" girls continue to go to these parties and experience the the things they do and keep going back. And why they don't report it. You're asking questions that have been previously answered, to some degree. Or send an email to the senate judiciary commitee asking them to ask the victims why they tolerated what they did, to the point of becoming a victim themselves.
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  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,893
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Where are you getting the "hundreds" number from? Its not likely that there were hundreds of witnesses 35 or 36 years ago. Georgetown Prep has a current boarding and day school enrollment of 491 students. Holten Arms has a current enrollment of 655 students in grades 1 through 12. How do you know "hundreds of people were aware?" Ever been to a house or frat party, or any party with hundreds of people? Ever notice how there were multiple smaller parties going on in different parts of the house, field, room, basement, woods, etc.?

    Some people seem to lack life experience, are completely unaware of the psychology and sociology behind human behavior or just don't want to believe women. Or, if they're not convicted in a court of law, there is no validity to the allegations. Was Bill Clinton convicted? Yet y'all so willingly view him as guilty as charged. And give Trump a pass.
    I just reread her statement. I thought she said hundreds at the party. She didnt, she didn't say how many were at the parties. But taking into account that others had described these parties with numbers into the hundreds, that she described a "train of numerous boys" in line, by all accounts most of these give the impression of very large parties. I have to assume not every boy at the party was in on the raping, and there was more than 1 or 2 girls showing up.  So it would be same to put the numbers in several dozen. SO my point remains the same, even if 30 people at a party instead of 100. How do 20 witnesses see a gang rape and be okay with it on a regular basis? 
  • njnancy
    njnancy Posts: 5,096
    mace1229 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Where are you getting the "hundreds" number from? Its not likely that there were hundreds of witnesses 35 or 36 years ago. Georgetown Prep has a current boarding and day school enrollment of 491 students. Holten Arms has a current enrollment of 655 students in grades 1 through 12. How do you know "hundreds of people were aware?" Ever been to a house or frat party, or any party with hundreds of people? Ever notice how there were multiple smaller parties going on in different parts of the house, field, room, basement, woods, etc.?

    Some people seem to lack life experience, are completely unaware of the psychology and sociology behind human behavior or just don't want to believe women. Or, if they're not convicted in a court of law, there is no validity to the allegations. Was Bill Clinton convicted? Yet y'all so willingly view him as guilty as charged. And give Trump a pass.
    I just reread her statement. I thought she said hundreds at the party. She didnt, she didn't say how many were at the parties. But taking into account that others had described these parties with numbers into the hundreds, that she described a "train of numerous boys" in line, by all accounts most of these give the impression of very large parties. I have to assume not every boy at the party was in on the raping, and there was more than 1 or 2 girls showing up.  So it would be same to put the numbers in several dozen. SO my point remains the same, even if 30 people at a party instead of 100. How do 20 witnesses see a gang rape and be okay with it on a regular basis? 
    Who says that they were okay with it? How does someone commit a gang rape and be okay with it on a regular basis?

    (I lied, I stayed)
  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,956
    mace1229 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Where are you getting the "hundreds" number from? Its not likely that there were hundreds of witnesses 35 or 36 years ago. Georgetown Prep has a current boarding and day school enrollment of 491 students. Holten Arms has a current enrollment of 655 students in grades 1 through 12. How do you know "hundreds of people were aware?" Ever been to a house or frat party, or any party with hundreds of people? Ever notice how there were multiple smaller parties going on in different parts of the house, field, room, basement, woods, etc.?

    Some people seem to lack life experience, are completely unaware of the psychology and sociology behind human behavior or just don't want to believe women. Or, if they're not convicted in a court of law, there is no validity to the allegations. Was Bill Clinton convicted? Yet y'all so willingly view him as guilty as charged. And give Trump a pass.
    I just reread her statement. I thought she said hundreds at the party. She didnt, she didn't say how many were at the parties. But taking into account that others had described these parties with numbers into the hundreds, that she described a "train of numerous boys" in line, by all accounts most of these give the impression of very large parties. I have to assume not every boy at the party was in on the raping, and there was more than 1 or 2 girls showing up.  So it would be same to put the numbers in several dozen. SO my point remains the same, even if 30 people at a party instead of 100. How do 20 witnesses see a gang rape and be okay with it on a regular basis? 
    because maybe those at the parties thought the girls were willing participants...until it happened to them. 
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,893
    njnancy said:
    mace1229 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Where are you getting the "hundreds" number from? Its not likely that there were hundreds of witnesses 35 or 36 years ago. Georgetown Prep has a current boarding and day school enrollment of 491 students. Holten Arms has a current enrollment of 655 students in grades 1 through 12. How do you know "hundreds of people were aware?" Ever been to a house or frat party, or any party with hundreds of people? Ever notice how there were multiple smaller parties going on in different parts of the house, field, room, basement, woods, etc.?

    Some people seem to lack life experience, are completely unaware of the psychology and sociology behind human behavior or just don't want to believe women. Or, if they're not convicted in a court of law, there is no validity to the allegations. Was Bill Clinton convicted? Yet y'all so willingly view him as guilty as charged. And give Trump a pass.
    I just reread her statement. I thought she said hundreds at the party. She didnt, she didn't say how many were at the parties. But taking into account that others had described these parties with numbers into the hundreds, that she described a "train of numerous boys" in line, by all accounts most of these give the impression of very large parties. I have to assume not every boy at the party was in on the raping, and there was more than 1 or 2 girls showing up.  So it would be same to put the numbers in several dozen. SO my point remains the same, even if 30 people at a party instead of 100. How do 20 witnesses see a gang rape and be okay with it on a regular basis? 
    Who says that they were okay with it? How does someone commit a gang rape and be okay with it on a regular basis?

    (I lied, I stayed)
    My opinion, if you are aware that a train of numerous boys gang rape a girl and yu say and do nothing, and you continue to attend said parties, then that means you are okay with it.

  • njnancy
    njnancy Posts: 5,096
    mace1229 said:
    njnancy said:
    mace1229 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    mace1229 said:
    oftenreading said:
    Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

    Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

    Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 
    I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
    Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
    I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
    That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
    I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
    I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.
    Where are you getting the "hundreds" number from? Its not likely that there were hundreds of witnesses 35 or 36 years ago. Georgetown Prep has a current boarding and day school enrollment of 491 students. Holten Arms has a current enrollment of 655 students in grades 1 through 12. How do you know "hundreds of people were aware?" Ever been to a house or frat party, or any party with hundreds of people? Ever notice how there were multiple smaller parties going on in different parts of the house, field, room, basement, woods, etc.?

    Some people seem to lack life experience, are completely unaware of the psychology and sociology behind human behavior or just don't want to believe women. Or, if they're not convicted in a court of law, there is no validity to the allegations. Was Bill Clinton convicted? Yet y'all so willingly view him as guilty as charged. And give Trump a pass.
    I just reread her statement. I thought she said hundreds at the party. She didnt, she didn't say how many were at the parties. But taking into account that others had described these parties with numbers into the hundreds, that she described a "train of numerous boys" in line, by all accounts most of these give the impression of very large parties. I have to assume not every boy at the party was in on the raping, and there was more than 1 or 2 girls showing up.  So it would be same to put the numbers in several dozen. SO my point remains the same, even if 30 people at a party instead of 100. How do 20 witnesses see a gang rape and be okay with it on a regular basis? 
    Who says that they were okay with it? How does someone commit a gang rape and be okay with it on a regular basis?

    (I lied, I stayed)
    My opinion, if you are aware that a train of numerous boys gang rape a girl and yu say and do nothing, and you continue to attend said parties, then that means you are okay with it.

    My opinion is that you have no idea how anyone felt about it.

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