Kavanaugh

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

my2hands said:

Question: she knows these guys are drugging and gang raping girls in 1981... and she continues to hang out with them, becoming a victim herself in 1982? 

What am I missing?

You know it has no bearing on this SCOTUS appointment but it is a very good question to be asking her (ask to understand).  Cause that is some seriously scaring shit right there.  Knowing what is going on and continually putting yourself at risk....scary indeed.

It's common, not unusual. You can find girls who do this in literally every high school and college in America.

I gotta ask, is it really common for girls to think guys are drugging or getting girls drunk, locking them in a room and guys lining up outside the room each taking a turn?  That doesn;t seem common at all to me.  I'm sure the drugging/alcohol could probably be called common...but gang bangs?  Really?  Without any girls saying anything?  I sure hope that's not common.  And it's what has me interested in her perspective as to why she and no one else said anything.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Go Beavers said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

my2hands said:

Question: she knows these guys are drugging and gang raping girls in 1981... and she continues to hang out with them, becoming a victim herself in 1982? 

What am I missing?

You know it has no bearing on this SCOTUS appointment but it is a very good question to be asking her (ask to understand).  Cause that is some seriously scaring shit right there.  Knowing what is going on and continually putting yourself at risk....scary indeed.

It's common, not unusual. You can find girls who do this in literally every high school and college in America.

I'd still like her adult opinion on why she did it.

How is it relevant?

Perhaps you didnt see my first comment...it's above "You know it has no bearing on this SCOTUS appointment"...

But it certainly relevant if we want to change that culture/environment moving forward.  It's very relevant.

Well yeah, but do you think that this particular woman should be answering such questions in this particular situation? I don't. She's got enough on her plate IMO. It's a fine and relevant question in general, but it would probably be quite unhelpful to go into it during these particular proceedings.... especially since the GOP will manage to turn it into attacking the victim.

I don't think she should be  answering this question to senators....but a media interview (if she agrees) I think it should be a topic.  She obviously doesn't have to answer at all.

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

my2hands said:

Question: she knows these guys are drugging and gang raping girls in 1981... and she continues to hang out with them, becoming a victim herself in 1982? 

What am I missing?

You know it has no bearing on this SCOTUS appointment but it is a very good question to be asking her (ask to understand).  Cause that is some seriously scaring shit right there.  Knowing what is going on and continually putting yourself at risk....scary indeed.

It's common, not unusual. You can find girls who do this in literally every high school and college in America.

I gotta ask, is it really common for girls to think guys are drugging or getting girls drunk, locking them in a room and guys lining up outside the room each taking a turn?  That doesn;t seem common at all to me.  I'm sure the drugging/alcohol could probably be called common...but gang bangs?  Really?  Without any girls saying anything?  I sure hope that's not common.  And it's what has me interested in her perspective as to why she and no one else said anything.

What I meant was common is girls continually putting themselves at risk. I didn't mean the specifics of this case.

Although weird and dangerous sexual activity among teens are a LOT more common that you seem to think, including gang bangs, "sex clubs", rape, etc. Yes. I'm afraid it's not terribly uncommon at all. Also, sexual harassment is literally the NORM. I did an indepth research project on that, interviewed students at schools, and 92% of high school girls reported conduct by boys that constituted overt sexual harassment and assault (including groping without consent, etc). What really disturbed me was that hardly any of those girls even realized what was happening was sexual harassment and abuse. They were literally simply so used to it as normal behaviour by the boys that they never reacted, even though it made them uncomfortable and feel negative feelings that affected their self-worth. It's terrible. They go along with it because they feel that if they don't they will be ostracized, and that is practically worse than death for many young people.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

my2hands said:

Question: she knows these guys are drugging and gang raping girls in 1981... and she continues to hang out with them, becoming a victim herself in 1982? 

What am I missing?

You know it has no bearing on this SCOTUS appointment but it is a very good question to be asking her (ask to understand).  Cause that is some seriously scaring shit right there.  Knowing what is going on and continually putting yourself at risk....scary indeed.

It's common, not unusual. You can find girls who do this in literally every high school and college in America.

I gotta ask, is it really common for girls to think guys are drugging or getting girls drunk, locking them in a room and guys lining up outside the room each taking a turn?  That doesn;t seem common at all to me.  I'm sure the drugging/alcohol could probably be called common...but gang bangs?  Really?  Without any girls saying anything?  I sure hope that's not common.  And it's what has me interested in her perspective as to why she and no one else said anything.

What I meant was common is girls continually putting themselves at risk. I didn't mean the specifics of this case.

Although weird and dangerous sexual activity among teens are a LOT more common that you seem to think, including gang bangs, "sex clubs", rape, etc. Yes. I'm afraid it's not terribly uncommon at all. Also, sexual harassment is literally the NORM. I did an indepth research project on that, interviewed students at schools, and 92% of high school girls reported conduct by boys that constituted overt sexual harassment and assault (including groping without consent, etc). What really disturbed me was that hardly any of those girls even realized what was happening was sexual harassment and abuse. They were literally simply so used to it as normal behaviour by the boys that they never reacted, even though it made them uncomfortable and feel negative feelings that affected their self-worth. It's terrible. They go along with it because they feel that if they don't they will be ostracized, and that is practically worse than death for many young people.

Scary stuff.  And after reading your post a few times I got really concerned if gang bangs with drugged girls while other girls knew and partied really concerned me if common.  I'm aware that there is way too much sexual harassment/assault and even some dangerous sexual activity that is consensual to "fit in" or be cool...but you are right that it probably happens more than I can imagine.

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

my2hands said:

Question: she knows these guys are drugging and gang raping girls in 1981... and she continues to hang out with them, becoming a victim herself in 1982? 

What am I missing?

You know it has no bearing on this SCOTUS appointment but it is a very good question to be asking her (ask to understand).  Cause that is some seriously scaring shit right there.  Knowing what is going on and continually putting yourself at risk....scary indeed.

It's common, not unusual. You can find girls who do this in literally every high school and college in America.

I gotta ask, is it really common for girls to think guys are drugging or getting girls drunk, locking them in a room and guys lining up outside the room each taking a turn?  That doesn;t seem common at all to me.  I'm sure the drugging/alcohol could probably be called common...but gang bangs?  Really?  Without any girls saying anything?  I sure hope that's not common.  And it's what has me interested in her perspective as to why she and no one else said anything.

What I meant was common is girls continually putting themselves at risk. I didn't mean the specifics of this case.

Although weird and dangerous sexual activity among teens are a LOT more common that you seem to think, including gang bangs, "sex clubs", rape, etc. Yes. I'm afraid it's not terribly uncommon at all. Also, sexual harassment is literally the NORM. I did an indepth research project on that, interviewed students at schools, and 92% of high school girls reported conduct by boys that constituted overt sexual harassment and assault (including groping without consent, etc). What really disturbed me was that hardly any of those girls even realized what was happening was sexual harassment and abuse. They were literally simply so used to it as normal behaviour by the boys that they never reacted, even though it made them uncomfortable and feel negative feelings that affected their self-worth. It's terrible. They go along with it because they feel that if they don't they will be ostracized, and that is practically worse than death for many young people.

Scary stuff.  And after reading your post a few times I got really concerned if gang bangs with drugged girls while other girls knew and partied really concerned me if common.  I'm aware that there is way too much sexual harassment/assault and even some dangerous sexual activity that is consensual to "fit in" or be cool...but you are right that it probably happens more than I can imagine.

And people can get used to pretty much anything. Girls often grow numb to such things... that's part of why they don't report until decades later, when they finally come to terms with just how fucking bad things were.
Man, the stories, either first hand or from what I observed, from high school would probably make your hair curl (although FTR, I happened to be someone who would NOT just sit around and keep hanging with such people... but honestly, I was kind of a black sheep. I know many of my peers would and did). The thing about all this stuff is that adults rarely know about it. Young people don't talk about this stuff to parents or teachers or anything, obviously, especially not if they're actually involved or close to it in any way. Kids know that if they let on about such things, their parents would never let them out of the house again!

Halifax2TheMax

my2hands said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding the culture of wealthy, white male privilege and how that plays out, from high school age to being nominated to the Supreme Court at 53. Why are the questions directed at the women? And who do you think is more likely to be telling the truth, the guy who doesn’t want an fbi investigation but went on Faux News to defend his honor or the multiple women who have come forward combined with the other known knowns? And why is his best friend holed up in a beach house? What’s he hiding or afraid of?

So because of white make privilege girls hang out with known gang rapists just waiting their turn?

I'm not doubting any allegations or supporting this scumbag, but to act like that isnt a legitimate/interesting question is a little silly to me. 

She said she knew they were drugging girls and gangbraping them with a line at the bedroom door.... and she continues to hang out with them for 2 years, basically just waiting her turn to get drugged? I don't know man, I find that a bit odd. 

What did or do high school age kids think of “rats?” How were “rats” treated? What happened to the “rat” who got everyone in trouble or ruined their fun for the weekend, week, month or year? What happened to the “rat” that brought unwanted scrutiny to the group? Who wants to be the “rat?” And you have to understand the “culture” back then. Colleges and universities have multiple hour classes on how to speak up in those types of situations. 35 or 36 years ago? Kids feared being a “rat” and there weren’t classes on how to speak up and out over questionable behavior.

EdsonNascimento

Realizing there would need to be a Constitutional Amendment change to make this happen, but would you liberals allow this scenario in this order:

1)  Appoint Judge Kavanaugh immediately.
2)  Do complete FBI investigation - if proven guilty, he is removed and we start over again.  If not guilty, life goes on

Jason P

A few things to consider for those looking with a pair of far right or far left sunglasses ... 1) You would have to be an insane person to have been behind a rape gang in high school and then decide to accept a supreme court nomination knowing the scrutiny you would come under.  2)  It would suggest that democratic, republican, and nonpartisan people involved in the vetting process are incompetent beyond logical comprehension to the point they should have their future job applications rejected at Arbys.

Gern Blansten

Jason P said:

A few things to consider for those looking with a pair of far right or far left sunglasses ... 1) You would have to be an insane person to have been behind a rape gang in high school and then decide to accept a supreme court nomination knowing the scrutiny you would come under.  2)  It would suggest that democratic, republican, and nonpartisan people involved in the vetting process are incompetent beyond logical comprehension to the point they should have their future job applications rejected at Arbys.

But look at how the GOP has sheltered his information from the beginning.  None of the sexual assault allegations would have been part of that but they definitely shielded a lot of his documents from review prior to confirmation hearings.

Gern Blansten

EdsonNascimento said:

Realizing there would need to be a Constitutional Amendment change to make this happen, but would you liberals allow this scenario in this order:

1)  Appoint Judge Kavanaugh immediately.
2)  Do complete FBI investigation - if proven guilty, he is removed and we start over again.  If not guilty, life goes on

How about this....put the appointment on hold until the investigation is done.  We operated with 8 justices for most of 2016 if you remember.

PJ_Soul

Halifax2TheMax said:

my2hands said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding the culture of wealthy, white male privilege and how that plays out, from high school age to being nominated to the Supreme Court at 53. Why are the questions directed at the women? And who do you think is more likely to be telling the truth, the guy who doesn’t want an fbi investigation but went on Faux News to defend his honor or the multiple women who have come forward combined with the other known knowns? And why is his best friend holed up in a beach house? What’s he hiding or afraid of?

So because of white make privilege girls hang out with known gang rapists just waiting their turn?

I'm not doubting any allegations or supporting this scumbag, but to act like that isnt a legitimate/interesting question is a little silly to me. 

She said she knew they were drugging girls and gangbraping them with a line at the bedroom door.... and she continues to hang out with them for 2 years, basically just waiting her turn to get drugged? I don't know man, I find that a bit odd. 

What did or do high school age kids think of “rats?” How were “rats” treated? What happened to the “rat” who got everyone in trouble or ruined their fun for the weekend, week, month or year? What happened to the “rat” that brought unwanted scrutiny to the group? Who wants to be the “rat?” And you have to understand the “culture” back then. Colleges and universities have multiple hour classes on how to speak up in those types of situations. 35 or 36 years ago? Kids feared being a “rat” and there weren’t classes on how to speak up and out over questionable behavior.

Yeah, there is more education, but this kind of thing is still alive and well in high schools and colleges. I think people underestimate the power of social groups for people at those ages.

PJ_Soul

EdsonNascimento said:

Realizing there would need to be a Constitutional Amendment change to make this happen, but would you liberals allow this scenario in this order:

1)  Appoint Judge Kavanaugh immediately.
2)  Do complete FBI investigation - if proven guilty, he is removed and we start over again.  If not guilty, life goes on

Why? That would just give him the opportunity to participate in SCOTUS decisions in the meantime, and then if he was removed later, any decision made while he sat would be brought into question. 

dignin

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding the culture of wealthy, white male privilege and how that plays out, from high school age to being nominated to the Supreme Court at 53. Why are the questions directed at the women? And who do you think is more likely to be telling the truth, the guy who doesn’t want an fbi investigation but went on Faux News to defend his honor or the multiple women who have come forward combined with the other known knowns? And why is his best friend holed up in a beach house? What’s he hiding or afraid of?

All of this. 
 

Jason P

Gern Blansten said:

Jason P said:

A few things to consider for those looking with a pair of far right or far left sunglasses ... 1) You would have to be an insane person to have been behind a rape gang in high school and then decide to accept a supreme court nomination knowing the scrutiny you would come under.  2)  It would suggest that democratic, republican, and nonpartisan people involved in the vetting process are incompetent beyond logical comprehension to the point they should have their future job applications rejected at Arbys.

But look at how the GOP has sheltered his information from the beginning.  None of the sexual assault allegations would have been part of that but they definitely shielded a lot of his documents from review prior to confirmation hearings.

Would it make sense for a party, either past or present, to carefully vet a supreme court candidate and nominate any person that they know was behind a rape gang in high school thinking they could shield that from coming forward at some point?  It is plausible that he engaged in sexual assault with a woman in his past and was able to keep that concealed but being behind a rape gang? 

This has gone from an alleged sexual assault behind closed doors, to flapping penises in peoples faces in front of multiple witnesses, to being behind an orchestrated gang rape gang in a matter of a few weeks.  I'm kind of interested that they delay the nomination a few more weeks to see how this is one-upped.

At least we will have some resemblance of disclosure when Ford testifies tomorrow.

oftenreading

Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 

Halifax2TheMax

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

my2hands said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding the culture of wealthy, white male privilege and how that plays out, from high school age to being nominated to the Supreme Court at 53. Why are the questions directed at the women? And who do you think is more likely to be telling the truth, the guy who doesn’t want an fbi investigation but went on Faux News to defend his honor or the multiple women who have come forward combined with the other known knowns? And why is his best friend holed up in a beach house? What’s he hiding or afraid of?

So because of white make privilege girls hang out with known gang rapists just waiting their turn?

I'm not doubting any allegations or supporting this scumbag, but to act like that isnt a legitimate/interesting question is a little silly to me. 

She said she knew they were drugging girls and gangbraping them with a line at the bedroom door.... and she continues to hang out with them for 2 years, basically just waiting her turn to get drugged? I don't know man, I find that a bit odd. 

What did or do high school age kids think of “rats?” How were “rats” treated? What happened to the “rat” who got everyone in trouble or ruined their fun for the weekend, week, month or year? What happened to the “rat” that brought unwanted scrutiny to the group? Who wants to be the “rat?” And you have to understand the “culture” back then. Colleges and universities have multiple hour classes on how to speak up in those types of situations. 35 or 36 years ago? Kids feared being a “rat” and there weren’t classes on how to speak up and out over questionable behavior.

Yeah, there is more education, but this kind of thing is still alive and well in high schools and colleges. I think people underestimate the power of social groups for people at those ages.

How many phone recordings are there of sexual assualt with multiple people involved, either willingly or as witnesses or have it forwarded to them and never say a word? Even today? It ususally takes a parent who stumbles upon it to report it or a rumour goes out and a school administrator starts asking questions or calls the police. That's today with video evidence. Imagine trying to chase down a rumour 35 or 36 years ago in a culture of wealthy, powerful, privileged youth and their parents?

Jason P

And to be on the record, I don't think the people vetting are incompetent.  I think they are probably the best at what they do and have unlimited resources to dig up information and will use any means necessary to obtain it.

PJ_Soul

I think this is really a simple case of Trump and the GOP just not giving a shit if someone is a piece of human garbage. Trump literally surrounds himself with people like this, and is a person like this himself.

mace1229

oftenreading said:

Old habits die hard, it seems. Once again some are putting the onus on the women to stop men’s behaviour. ”Why did the women hang around and let this happen?” “Why didn’t they just walk out and refuse to go to any other parties?”  “Why didn’t they report it to their parents or the police”. 

Why didn’t actresses just refuse to meet with Harvey Weinstein? Because they all knew that was what you had to do, to get work, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

Why don’t female employees and executives just refuse to go along with workplace harassment? Because they all know that is what you have to do to keep your job, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

Why didn’t female students just walk out of parties, report the harassment to their parents and teaches and police? Because they all knew that is what you put up with from men to be accepted, and they didn’t see any way of changing the system. 

Why is it always up to the women to stop men’s behaviour? 

I dont agree with that, not to this extreme.
Sure, some rude behavior, maybe some touching even. But a full on line of guys waiting their turn for a rape?
I have to ask myself what is more plausible:
That this third accusation is accurate and that hundreds of people were aware, men and women, that multiple girls were getting raped by dozens of men on a regular basis and not a single one of them were decent enough of human beings to report a gang rape, or that this story is at best exaggerated or possible made up?
I just don't buy the "rat" defense, high school students, even in the 80s, knew that a gang rape was wrong. You could maybe scare 1 or 2 witnesses into silence, but not hundreds as described.
I'm not saying I know she's making this up, but I can say there are parts of this story that don't add up to me and make me question it.

njnancy

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

my2hands said:

Question: she knows these guys are drugging and gang raping girls in 1981... and she continues to hang out with them, becoming a victim herself in 1982? 

What am I missing?

You know it has no bearing on this SCOTUS appointment but it is a very good question to be asking her (ask to understand).  Cause that is some seriously scaring shit right there.  Knowing what is going on and continually putting yourself at risk....scary indeed.

It's common, not unusual. You can find girls who do this in literally every high school and college in America.

I gotta ask, is it really common for girls to think guys are drugging or getting girls drunk, locking them in a room and guys lining up outside the room each taking a turn?  That doesn;t seem common at all to me.  I'm sure the drugging/alcohol could probably be called common...but gang bangs?  Really?  Without any girls saying anything?  I sure hope that's not common.  And it's what has me interested in her perspective as to why she and no one else said anything.

What I meant was common is girls continually putting themselves at risk. I didn't mean the specifics of this case.

Although weird and dangerous sexual activity among teens are a LOT more common that you seem to think, including gang bangs, "sex clubs", rape, etc. Yes. I'm afraid it's not terribly uncommon at all. Also, sexual harassment is literally the NORM. I did an indepth research project on that, interviewed students at schools, and 92% of high school girls reported conduct by boys that constituted overt sexual harassment and assault (including groping without consent, etc). What really disturbed me was that hardly any of those girls even realized what was happening was sexual harassment and abuse. They were literally simply so used to it as normal behaviour by the boys that they never reacted, even though it made them uncomfortable and feel negative feelings that affected their self-worth. It's terrible. They go along with it because they feel that if they don't they will be ostracized, and that is practically worse than death for many young people.

Scary stuff.  And after reading your post a few times I got really concerned if gang bangs with drugged girls while other girls knew and partied really concerned me if common.  I'm aware that there is way too much sexual harassment/assault and even some dangerous sexual activity that is consensual to "fit in" or be cool...but you are right that it probably happens more than I can imagine.

And people can get used to pretty much anything. Girls often grow numb to such things... that's part of why they don't report until decades later, when they finally come to terms with just how fucking bad things were.
Man, the stories, either first hand or from what I observed, from high school would probably make your hair curl (although FTR, I happened to be someone who would NOT just sit around and keep hanging with such people... but honestly, I was kind of a black sheep. I know many of my peers would and did). The thing about all this stuff is that adults rarely know about it. Young people don't talk about this stuff to parents or teachers or anything, obviously, especially not if they're actually involved or close to it in any way. Kids know that if they let on about such things, their parents would never let them out of the house again!

I was in high school in the early 80's and, just speaking to the climate of the time, this kind of behavior is sadly not out of the ordinary. Not all guys acted this way, but it was in no way unusual for a guy to grab you while you were walking through the halls between classes. Parties always had drinking and drugs involved, though not all people participated, and there was no idea of 'no means no' back then. Girls were sluts and guys were untouchable. If you were at a party and you drank and someone came on to you, you were a tease if you didn't comply and unwanted touching was 'no big deal'. It was a boy's world. Especially if the that boy was an athlete, especially if that boy was a really good athlete. A girl's word would be ridiculed, actually it would be cause to be labeled a slut. Yes, if you were assaulted without your consent, the girl was to blame. And if the girl was drinking, she was a slut and deserved it. Why did we continue to go to parties? Because we didn't know any better and wanted to go out on the weekend. There was no alternate view. You went to parties at your own risk. You watched what you said, where you were, who was there. But we drank and shit happened and there was no one who gave a damn. Maybe there were some adults but it was drummed into our heads that it was our fault. Boys will be boys. Don't rock the boat. 


If you had a boyfriend and you did anything with them - we're not even talking intercourse - it was known to people the next day. And god forbid you actually enjoyed fooling around with your boyfriend. That was only allowed for the guys. Girls were not held in esteem when it came to sex. It was a very confusing and disturbing time and I am not saying that this means that all of these allegations are true. I'm just saying that normal intelligent girls went to parties and were subjected to sexual harassment on a regular basis. And we were taught to be ashamed, of our sexuality, of our bodies and did not even think we could talk to our friends about it. Go to the police? Are you kidding me? You know who had relatives on the police force? Not me. 

This whole thing makes me glad that I do not have a daughter because it seems that not much has changed since the 80's. And I know I am not the only person who finds all these allegations to be what was considered acceptable behavior in the 80's. If a girl was being gang raped - well what did she expect? She went to a party and got drunk, she got what she deserved. And listening to women, WOMEN, defending this culture makes me so angry. I see women on TV laughing about how normal it is for teenage boys to get drunk and grope women. Get over it. That is why women don't report sexual assaults, we're not even sure if what happened was an assault. Men overly touching in the workplace? How can a woman who came from that era even know what the hell to do and it leaves us ashamed and quiet and pissed. 

This isn't accusing anyone on here of saying these things are okay. But I"m telling you that this is the kind of shit that went on all the time. Why would a woman continue going to a party? Should we all have stayed home because men rule the world and you never know what type of party you are walking into? I think the better question is why is it a woman's fault that men behaved badly at parties that we had every right to attend without fearing being victimized. 

I know I struggled with a woman's independence and thinking this was wrong, but still falling into the mindset of being silent and compliant.