Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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Comments

  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,300
    mickeyrat said:
    a complete disregard for life to not acknowledge it as life at a defined time during the pregnancy. 
    I agree.

    EDIT: But doesn't everyone? Or hmm.. Am I lost here?
    Well apparently I am spreading propaganda when I myself said I am not completely against having a choice up to a certain point. All I want are defined rules of engagement. 

    The only argument from me is where said point is during the pregnancy. 
    science has determined at roughly 26 weeks.  after that ,while not a garauntee, medical science has shown babies can survive at 27 weeks.
    21 weeks and 5 days, and a baby can survive.

    So that 26 weeks of yours sounds off..?

    In Sweden it is in a legal sense considered to be "a child" at week 22.
    So Sweden allows the murder of 2 day old survivable babies?  Sick place.
    If you wan't to look at it that way, I guess. Not fully read up on rules and stuff regarding this.

    I'm practitioning abstinence. 
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,095
    mickeyrat said:
    a complete disregard for life to not acknowledge it as life at a defined time during the pregnancy. 
    I agree.

    EDIT: But doesn't everyone? Or hmm.. Am I lost here?
    Well apparently I am spreading propaganda when I myself said I am not completely against having a choice up to a certain point. All I want are defined rules of engagement. 

    The only argument from me is where said point is during the pregnancy. 
    science has determined at roughly 26 weeks.  after that ,while not a garauntee, medical science has shown babies can survive at 27 weeks.
    21 weeks and 5 days, and a baby can survive.

    So that 26 weeks of yours sounds off..?

    In Sweden it is in a legal sense considered to be "a child" at week 22.
    So Sweden allows the murder of 2 day old survivable babies?  Sick place.
    If you wan't to look at it that way, I guess. Not fully read up on rules and stuff regarding this.

    I'm practitioning abstinence. 
    Is it abstinence when others are making the choice for you?


    hippiemom = goodness
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,400
    mickeyrat said:
    a complete disregard for life to not acknowledge it as life at a defined time during the pregnancy. 
    I agree.

    EDIT: But doesn't everyone? Or hmm.. Am I lost here?
    Well apparently I am spreading propaganda when I myself said I am not completely against having a choice up to a certain point. All I want are defined rules of engagement. 

    The only argument from me is where said point is during the pregnancy. 
    science has determined at roughly 26 weeks.  after that ,while not a garauntee, medical science has shown babies can survive at 27 weeks.
    21 weeks and 5 days, and a baby can survive.

    So that 26 weeks of yours sounds off..?

    In Sweden it is in a legal sense considered to be "a child" at week 22.
    So Sweden allows the murder of 2 day old survivable babies?  Sick place.
    If you wan't to look at it that way, I guess. Not fully read up on rules and stuff regarding this.

    I'm practitioning abstinence. 
    Is it abstinence when others are making the choice for you?


    LOL
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,300
    mickeyrat said:
    a complete disregard for life to not acknowledge it as life at a defined time during the pregnancy. 
    I agree.

    EDIT: But doesn't everyone? Or hmm.. Am I lost here?
    Well apparently I am spreading propaganda when I myself said I am not completely against having a choice up to a certain point. All I want are defined rules of engagement. 

    The only argument from me is where said point is during the pregnancy. 
    science has determined at roughly 26 weeks.  after that ,while not a garauntee, medical science has shown babies can survive at 27 weeks.
    21 weeks and 5 days, and a baby can survive.

    So that 26 weeks of yours sounds off..?

    In Sweden it is in a legal sense considered to be "a child" at week 22.
    So Sweden allows the murder of 2 day old survivable babies?  Sick place.
    If you wan't to look at it that way, I guess. Not fully read up on rules and stuff regarding this.

    I'm practitioning abstinence. 
    Is it abstinence when others are making the choice for you?



    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • RunIntoTheRainRunIntoTheRain TexasPosts: 614
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.
    Very well stated @benjs
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,229
    edited June 14
    Do the people in here really not believe that there should be a definitive date on the timeline of when an abortion should still be acceptable or not? 
    I really really don't. I see no difference, in terms of the government's role, between telling a woman what to do with her body when she's 3 weeks pregnant or when she's 24 weeks pregnant or 38 weeks pregnant (not that women are getting voluntary abortions at 38 weeks - that's an anti-choice myth). I have personal opinions about the timing, just like you have opinions, but all those opinions are completely irrelevant when we're talking about laws governing women's bodies.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,991
    Do the people in here really not believe that there should be a definitive date on the timeline of when an abortion should still be acceptable or not? 
    there cant be a definitive date cause theres not a definitive date when all women find out theyre pregnant. there are so many factors involved and its a far from easy choice. not my uterus, not my choice. 
    Ummm there sure can be a date. Cause it doesn’t matter when the women finds out, it matters about the development of the body inside her. Right? Surely you are not advocating for a women to be able to abort if she finds out at 9 months pregnant? You are just talking about the laws that go as far as 8 weeks, etc I hope. 
    hope all you want. but i cant say this strongly enough... not my uterus, not my choice. absolutely of course it matters when a woman finds out she is pregnant... she cant make a decision  until she knows, correct? time is needed to process, to think and then to decide what she wants to do. if a woman  finds out she is pregnant at 6 weeks gestation then she has time to decide. if she finds out much later then she may not have the time she needs and that decision may be taken from her if there is a deadline. and it should never be. imagine  trying to make the biggest decision of your life whilst staring at a deadline. one simply doesnt  wake up one morning, pee on a stick, discover theyre pregnant and then say well i guess ill get rid of it. ts not like taking back a pair of shoes cause they dont fit.  but of course, if the state decides that they are simply going to take away a womans autonomy and force ALL pregnant women to carry to term then sure yes, when she finds out shes pregnant is irrelevant. 
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,229
    edited June 14
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.
    Very well stated @benjs
    Perhaps, but it's also a call for the government to have control over women's own bodies, and to remove women's rights to their own internal organs, which is disgusting.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,991
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.

    aah i see now... benjs youve turned what is a medical procedure into a legal issue. with respect to you it doesnt matter what parameters you find reasonable, or very reasonable or what 'we'  think is fair or not fair. my having an abortion impacts no one but myself and the father if he is around.  the father can voice his opinion but when it really comes down to it, its not his choice to make. so what are we left with? a womens right  to exercise autonomy over her own body without interference. THATS when the debate will stop. 

    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,095
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.

    aah i see now... benjs youve turned what is a medical procedure into a legal issue. with respect to you it doesnt matter what parameters you find reasonable, or very reasonable or what 'we'  think is fair or not fair. my having an abortion impacts no one but myself and the father if he is around.  the father can voice his opinion but when it really comes down to it, its not his choice to make. so what are we left with? a womens right  to exercise autonomy over her own body without interference. THATS when the debate will stop. 

    At some point a women’s decision to abort effects another life. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,991
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.

    aah i see now... benjs youve turned what is a medical procedure into a legal issue. with respect to you it doesnt matter what parameters you find reasonable, or very reasonable or what 'we'  think is fair or not fair. my having an abortion impacts no one but myself and the father if he is around.  the father can voice his opinion but when it really comes down to it, its not his choice to make. so what are we left with? a womens right  to exercise autonomy over her own body without interference. THATS when the debate will stop. 

    At some point a women’s decision to abort effects another life. 
    i am not going to get into a philosophical debate about when life begins.  to me its irrelevant. abortion laws are about  the control of a womans body. how about we just  give every male a vasectomy as soon as they hit puberty, that way the number of unwanted pregnancies would drop considerably...  plus bonus! theyre reversible(only to be performed when a man enters a lawful relationship of course) and then we wont have to concern ourselves with loose women killing babies and men feeling emasculated cause  the decision to terminate a pregnancy is out of their hands. 
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,656
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.

    aah i see now... benjs youve turned what is a medical procedure into a legal issue. with respect to you it doesnt matter what parameters you find reasonable, or very reasonable or what 'we'  think is fair or not fair. my having an abortion impacts no one but myself and the father if he is around.  the father can voice his opinion but when it really comes down to it, its not his choice to make. so what are we left with? a womens right  to exercise autonomy over her own body without interference. THATS when the debate will stop. 

    Cate, I haven't turned it into a legal issue - it already exists as both a legal issue and an important philosophical one. 

    Where there's an opportunity for neglect and harm to be done, a government is obligated to speak to that. That's why there are doctors doing medical procedures all the time, yet there are also oversight opportunities with legal ramifications for professional negligence. While it may complicate matters that philosophy (autonomy over self) and legal (at a certain point a human will be involuntarily within another human and is constitutionally protected) seem at odds, that's nothing new, and still keeps us obligated to consider the risks and mitigate them legally. 

    It should be very clear that I'm trying to propose ways to do this legally and with respect to the autonomy of a woman's body that I believe in just like you. Where we disagree, is that I don't believe women will win this crucial right they are entitled to with the philosophical argument, and I believe that winning the right in an immutable way is more important than agreeing on why the right is implicit (even if it is).

    If you're proposing that legal considerations may not be considered at all in light of the autonomy to body reality, we're not going to agree on that approach being effective or proper. PS, this is a tough topic, and I know I'm a guy and all, but this is such an important topic, and I hope I haven't inadvertently offended anyone with my positions.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

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  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,425
    edited June 15
    This false narrative that the premise of abortion laws is about controlling women is just to sway the uninformed at this point. What do you say to women that are pro-life that see right through that? 
    Post edited by drakeheuer14 on
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,859
    This false narrative that the premise of abortion laws is about controlling women is just to sway the uninformed at this point. What do you say to women that are pro-life that see right through that? 
    that for them , given their position, they would choose to give birth. fucking simple really.

    disagree with abortion? dont have one. end of story.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

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  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,425
    mickeyrat said:
    This false narrative that the premise of abortion laws is about controlling women is just to sway the uninformed at this point. What do you say to women that are pro-life that see right through that? 
    that for them , given their position, they would choose to give birth. fucking simple really.

    disagree with abortion? dont have one. end of story.
    Well thank goodness it isn’t the end of the story. 
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,095
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.

    aah i see now... benjs youve turned what is a medical procedure into a legal issue. with respect to you it doesnt matter what parameters you find reasonable, or very reasonable or what 'we'  think is fair or not fair. my having an abortion impacts no one but myself and the father if he is around.  the father can voice his opinion but when it really comes down to it, its not his choice to make. so what are we left with? a womens right  to exercise autonomy over her own body without interference. THATS when the debate will stop. 

    At some point a women’s decision to abort effects another life. 
    i am not going to get into a philosophical debate about when life begins.  to me its irrelevant. abortion laws are about  the control of a womans body. how about we just  give every male a vasectomy as soon as they hit puberty, that way the number of unwanted pregnancies would drop considerably...  plus bonus! theyre reversible(only to be performed when a man enters a lawful relationship of course) and then we wont have to concern ourselves with loose women killing babies and men feeling emasculated cause  the decision to terminate a pregnancy is out of their hands. 
    It’s a scientific debate not philosophical. But fair enough we just won’t discuss it
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,300
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.

    aah i see now... benjs youve turned what is a medical procedure into a legal issue. with respect to you it doesnt matter what parameters you find reasonable, or very reasonable or what 'we'  think is fair or not fair. my having an abortion impacts no one but myself and the father if he is around.  the father can voice his opinion but when it really comes down to it, its not his choice to make. so what are we left with? a womens right  to exercise autonomy over her own body without interference. THATS when the debate will stop. 

    At some point a women’s decision to abort effects another life. 
    i am not going to get into a philosophical debate about when life begins.  to me its irrelevant. abortion laws are about  the control of a womans body. how about we just  give every male a vasectomy as soon as they hit puberty, that way the number of unwanted pregnancies would drop considerably...  plus bonus! theyre reversible(only to be performed when a man enters a lawful relationship of course) and then we wont have to concern ourselves with loose women killing babies and men feeling emasculated cause  the decision to terminate a pregnancy is out of their hands. 
    It’s a scientific debate not philosophical.
    How?
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,095
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.

    aah i see now... benjs youve turned what is a medical procedure into a legal issue. with respect to you it doesnt matter what parameters you find reasonable, or very reasonable or what 'we'  think is fair or not fair. my having an abortion impacts no one but myself and the father if he is around.  the father can voice his opinion but when it really comes down to it, its not his choice to make. so what are we left with? a womens right  to exercise autonomy over her own body without interference. THATS when the debate will stop. 

    At some point a women’s decision to abort effects another life. 
    i am not going to get into a philosophical debate about when life begins.  to me its irrelevant. abortion laws are about  the control of a womans body. how about we just  give every male a vasectomy as soon as they hit puberty, that way the number of unwanted pregnancies would drop considerably...  plus bonus! theyre reversible(only to be performed when a man enters a lawful relationship of course) and then we wont have to concern ourselves with loose women killing babies and men feeling emasculated cause  the decision to terminate a pregnancy is out of their hands. 
    It’s a scientific debate not philosophical.
    How?
    About when life begins? When a fetus/baby is developed enough to survive outside the womb?

    I see how it is a philosophical debate as well, but my singular point to cate was about the science. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 6,337
    Abortion  should always be.....

    Affordable 
    Available on demand 
    Legal 
    Safe
    A womans choice/decision 
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,995
    This false narrative that the premise of abortion laws is about controlling women is just to sway the uninformed at this point. What do you say to women that are pro-life that see right through that? 
    You may say that it's not about control, and you may even believe it's not about control, but when it comes right down to it, control is an intrinsic part of it, so it becomes about control. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,995
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.

    Ben, I think it's optimistic to think that this or any other action would stop the debate, at least in the US. The issue is becoming more polarized, not less, and this would just add another point of contention to an already contentious issue, while also still removing the right to abortion past whatever is deemed the "upper boundary". 

    When you say that abortion must occur within the framework of law, does that mean you disagree with how abortion is handled in Canada? I see our system working pretty well. We can only hope this continues, and that it doesn't get impacted by this nonsense from the US. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,095
    edited June 15
    Abortion  should always be.....

    Affordable 
    Available on demand 
    Legal 
    Safe
    A womans choice/decision 
    When you do stuff like this, you are just a bot
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,095
    This false narrative that the premise of abortion laws is about controlling women is just to sway the uninformed at this point. What do you say to women that are pro-life that see right through that? 
    You may say that it's not about control, and you may even believe it's not about control, but when it comes right down to it, control is an intrinsic part of it, so it becomes about control. 
    It is about control cause at some point you are advocating for a women to be able to control a life that could survive without her to have control over that life. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,425
    edited June 15
    This false narrative that the premise of abortion laws is about controlling women is just to sway the uninformed at this point. What do you say to women that are pro-life that see right through that? 
    You may say that it's not about control, and you may even believe it's not about control, but when it comes right down to it, control is an intrinsic part of it, so it becomes about control. 
    So you must advocate for no government control over anything? Why should they have a say over anything that only affects myself attitude I guess? They control men and women in many different ways. If there is one issue that they should really care about and fight for, it is when they should be considered a life even if in the womb. 

    It is blown out of proportion as oppressing women because only women can get pregnant. Unfair? Sure. But that is just the nature of it and the only reason it has turned into a “controlling women” problem instead of a when does life definitively begin problem.  
    Post edited by drakeheuer14 on
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,995
    This false narrative that the premise of abortion laws is about controlling women is just to sway the uninformed at this point. What do you say to women that are pro-life that see right through that? 
    You may say that it's not about control, and you may even believe it's not about control, but when it comes right down to it, control is an intrinsic part of it, so it becomes about control. 
    It is about control cause at some point you are advocating for a women to be able to control a life that could survive without her to have control over that life. 
    That's falling down the rabbit hole of right wing propaganda, claiming that women are aborting viable babies late in pregnancy that are then killed. It's false. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,095
    This false narrative that the premise of abortion laws is about controlling women is just to sway the uninformed at this point. What do you say to women that are pro-life that see right through that? 
    You may say that it's not about control, and you may even believe it's not about control, but when it comes right down to it, control is an intrinsic part of it, so it becomes about control. 
    It is about control cause at some point you are advocating for a women to be able to control a life that could survive without her to have control over that life. 
    That's falling down the rabbit hole of right wing propaganda, claiming that women are aborting viable babies late in pregnancy that are then killed. It's false. 
    Ummm no.  I simply stated that at some point science should dictate when the deadline is for abortion. You seemed to disagree. Read back. 

    Stop with the political bullshit and read what I wrote.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,425
    edited June 15
    This false narrative that the premise of abortion laws is about controlling women is just to sway the uninformed at this point. What do you say to women that are pro-life that see right through that? 
    You may say that it's not about control, and you may even believe it's not about control, but when it comes right down to it, control is an intrinsic part of it, so it becomes about control. 
    It is about control cause at some point you are advocating for a women to be able to control a life that could survive without her to have control over that life. 
    That's falling down the rabbit hole of right wing propaganda, claiming that women are aborting viable babies late in pregnancy that are then killed. It's false. 
    Then you shouldn’t mind that x amount of weeks should be decided upon since they never happen and wouldn’t happen.
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,617
    Abortion  should always be.....

    Affordable 
    Available on demand 
    Legal 
    Safe
    A womans choice/decision 
    I don't care how many times you post it, it STILL makes sense.  So thank you.
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,656
    benjs said:
    I think viability is understandable, but I still personally think it lacks compassion and acknowledgment of the situation permitting an abortion that late. The child relies on the mother as I mentioned above, just in different ways throughout life. Just because they aren’t self-sufficient doesn’t mean the support should be forfeited. At least in my opinion.
    Others may disagree with my rationale, but the way I see it, the Constitution extends protections to human life. Before a human lives its life outside of a woman's body, a human briefly lives its life within (and nourished by) a woman's body. In my opinion, one good way to move forward reasonably is to have a consortium of medical experts responsible for establishing a legal definition of when human (i.e. not a fertilized egg, not an embryo, not a fetus) life begins, and then at that point to define an abortion as the cessation of a pregnancy of anything other than human life. This would put that upper boundary on abortions, would send a clear and irrefutable message that an abortion is not a murder, and would extend human rights to those determined as human. 

    Inevitably people will bring up varying rates of development, but we have no problems in society with setting blanket laws that ignore varying development (can't drive until X, can't vote until Y, can't smoke until Z, etc.). I'm 100% in support of women's rights to pursue abortions, but asking that this occurs within the framework of law, or that the framework of law be modified to represent cultural development over decades, in my opinion are very reasonable and also necessary if we want to establish definitively what's fair and what's not. Otherwise, I just don't see this debate stopping.

    Ben, I think it's optimistic to think that this or any other action would stop the debate, at least in the US. The issue is becoming more polarized, not less, and this would just add another point of contention to an already contentious issue, while also still removing the right to abortion past whatever is deemed the "upper boundary". 

    When you say that abortion must occur within the framework of law, does that mean you disagree with how abortion is handled in Canada? I see our system working pretty well. We can only hope this continues, and that it doesn't get impacted by this nonsense from the US. 
    It may be optimistic to say the debate would stop, but I feel it's important for women to be able to say "it's my right, and that's indicated by law. Don't take it up with me, take it up with our lawmakers if you've got a problem with it". 

    As for how abortion is handled - I believe that it's critical to have easy physical access to abortion facilities, fully funded support for abortions, and a definition of when human life begins, at which point any legal protections afforded to a human should be afforded to the human growing (and nourished by) a woman's body (in addition to, and not instead of, the woman carrying child). Before the point (i.e. a woman carrying anything not legally defined as human), I believe in unrestricted access to abortions for any woman for what ever reason she has. I'm thankful that of any of these clauses, that the one Canada has sacrificed (supporting abortion at any time within a woman's pregnancy) is the least important (far more important is the non-negotiable access and funding), though I think it leaves potential for a woman carrying a child to act neglectfully, and feel it should be addressed definitively.

    I think Canada's model is almost spot-on, and I also think the impact of it being incorrect thankfully has been fairly negligible.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,095
    hedonist said:
    Abortion  should always be.....

    Affordable 
    Available on demand 
    Legal 
    Safe
    A womans choice/decision 
    I don't care how many times you post it, it STILL makes sense.  So thank you.
    So then. Anytime up until birth this applies?
    hippiemom = goodness
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