Hurricane Harvey

JC29856

Halifax2TheMax said:

JC29856 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

Will you ever show the same contempt for Trump's decision making, or lack thereof? Or only those of women and minorities?

when you show me how to build my own weather center and when often shows me how to build my own evacuation route.
as a bonus, explain how I overreact to a situation that hasn't yet happened?

Do you have any contempt for the white, republican adminstrative county judge known as "Hunker Down Ed?"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/us/houston-mayor-evacuation-dilemma.html?mcubz=0

When Hurricane Harvey began brewing offshore, Mr. Turner began meeting at least a week ago with Harris County Judge Ed Emmett, the county’s top executive and a Republican well-known for his experience and skill at dealing with storms: His nickname is “Hunker Down Ed.”

Governor's advice or word should pull more weight, right?

Then, in a Friday news conference, Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas said that residents of Houston, the coast and in between should “strongly consider evacuating” even if an order “hasn’t been issued by your local official.”

Because, you know, making informed decisions in the age of Trump is, well, rash.

Dr. Shepherd also noted National Weather Service statistics from 2014 showing that 66 percent of the drowning deaths in the United States that year occurred while the victims were driving.

With a life-threatening hurricane now bearing down on Texas, a fundamental issue had become politicized. Liberals criticized Mr. Abbott, arguing that he was coaxing residents to put themselves in harm’s way. On the conservative website Red State, a columnist wrote that the governor’s evacuation call was “sound and measured advice which any responsible public official would have given. But then, you wouldn’t be holding a position of responsibility in Harris County, TX.”

Still, Mr. King, the mayor’s competitor in the 2015 election, said that he fully supported the mayor’s decision not to call an evacuation order. He, too, cited the experience with Hurricane Rita.

“It was a nightmare,” he said. “On a normal day, our roadways are not designed to handle that many people moving in one direction. Gas stations don’t keep that much of an inventory of gas on hand. Some cars are going to be old and break down. And usually when this happens, it’s hot as hell in Houston. You put people not in good health in that situation, it’s a recipe for disaster.”

3D, D'in hard for the dollar. Yea, you own your takeaway.

the president of the alt-stupid club thinks this is about people that have the means to evacuate, that my contempt is over the guy who can simply hop in his Tahoe and GTFO on a dime but instead listened to the mayor and stayed and rode the storm out with Netflix on the HD with shrimp cocktails and small batch bourbon.

Halifax2TheMax

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

Houston Mayor really failed these people.

How so?

He told everyone to stay put.  Just like Katrina people should have got out.  It was very clear how bad this was going to be.

So you wanted the government to tell people what to do?

Fine.  Stay.  Don't cry on TV that your house got flooded out.

Because most houses fit in the trunk of a car. Talk about stupid. Yea, I left, evacuated and lo and behold, my house was the only one on the block that didn't flood. And I guess I shouldn't be emotional about it either. Must be nice to constantly live in a black/white universe. Mostly white I'm guessing.

Kat

It was a real nightmare, hell to be clear, the last time Houston tried to evacuate. People died out on the highways. Fourth largest city in the country, so many people.
https://qz.com/1064813/hurricane-harvey-why-wasnt-houston-evacuated-the-experience-of-hurricane-rita-explains-why/

New York deals with millions of people too. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/opinion/harvey-flooding-mayor-evacuation.html?mcubz=0

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

Did you not post this?

PJ_Soul

Kat said:

It was a real nightmare, hell to be clear, the last time Houston tried to evacuate. People died out on the highways. Fourth largest city in the country, so many people.
https://qz.com/1064813/hurricane-harvey-why-wasnt-houston-evacuated-the-experience-of-hurricane-rita-explains-why/

I would have thought some lessons would have been learned from that though. They had what? A few days' warning? They might have tried sectioning off the city and evacuating one section at a time, in a way that reduced the possibility of gridlock as much as possible. Obviously nobody could have pulled off a plan like that from scratch after the storm reports came in, but if they'd come up with something after the last time it went wrong, and made the city aware of their organized evacuation plans a long time ago so everyone knew what to do when the need arose, then I'm sure they could have managed that. As that articles says, the evacuation in 2005 was "muddled". That is because there wasn't a well-organized evacuation plan in place that the citizens were well aware of. This seems like something every larger city should do, just like they recommend that every family work out a fire escape plan from their homes.

JC29856

we rather you go down with the titanic, than die trying to flee, there aren't enough rescue boats to fit everyone, don't you remember what happened last time we were sinking.

I enjoyed today's chatter. everyone have safe and happy labor day weekends, in all sincerity. I'm out, you will be jc# free until at least next Tue, I promise. Cheers!

tempo_n_groove

Kat said:

It was a real nightmare, hell to be clear, the last time Houston tried to evacuate. People died out on the highways. Fourth largest city in the country, so many people.
https://qz.com/1064813/hurricane-harvey-why-wasnt-houston-evacuated-the-experience-of-hurricane-rita-explains-why/

New York deals with millions of people too. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/opinion/harvey-flooding-mayor-evacuation.html?mcubz=0

I posted about the Katrina Exodus on the previous page and no one said anything...

Kat

No one stopped anyone from evacuating. It just wasn't mandatory. The Hurricane Rita evacuation did teach the city something and hopefully the next time, it'll go way better. I'm sure the fact that the hurricane landfall was way south of Houston figured in the decision. Look up the stories of the Hurricane Rita evacuation and you'll see what a nightmare that was.

NYT article:
"Hours before the hurricane hit 2.5 million Texans fled town at the same time, according to The Houston Chronicle. This caused enormous, daylong traffic jams. While stranded on highways, people were injured or killed from heat stroke. Others got in fights. And a bus that was transporting elderly people from a nursing home exploded, killing 23 people.

In total, some 130 people died in that evacuation, more than have ever perished in a hurricane in the state’s history, with the exception of the 1900 Galveston storm. Of those deaths, about half occurred before the storm hit Texas."

tempo_n_groove

Kat said:

No one stopped anyone from evacuating. It just wasn't mandatory. The Hurricane Rita evacuation did teach the city something and hopefully the next time, it'll go way better. I'm sure the fact that the hurricane landfall was way south of Houston figured in the decision. Look up the stories of the Hurricane Rita evacuation and you'll see what a nightmare that was.

NYT article:
"Hours before the hurricane hit 2.5 million Texans fled town at the same time, according to The Houston Chronicle. This caused enormous, daylong traffic jams. While stranded on highways, people were injured or killed from heat stroke. Others got in fights. And a bus that was transporting elderly people from a nursing home exploded, killing 23 people.

In total, some 130 people died in that evacuation, more than have ever perished in a hurricane in the state’s history, with the exception of the 1900 Galveston storm. Of those deaths, about half occurred before the storm hit Texas."

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

This was written 5 years ago.

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

JC29856 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

Will you ever show the same contempt for Trump's decision making, or lack thereof? Or only those of women and minorities?

when you show me how to build my own weather center and when often shows me how to build my own evacuation route.
as a bonus, explain how I overreact to a situation that hasn't yet happened?

Do you have any contempt for the white, republican adminstrative county judge known as "Hunker Down Ed?"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/us/houston-mayor-evacuation-dilemma.html?mcubz=0

When Hurricane Harvey began brewing offshore, Mr. Turner began meeting at least a week ago with Harris County Judge Ed Emmett, the county’s top executive and a Republican well-known for his experience and skill at dealing with storms: His nickname is “Hunker Down Ed.”

Governor's advice or word should pull more weight, right?

Then, in a Friday news conference, Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas said that residents of Houston, the coast and in between should “strongly consider evacuating” even if an order “hasn’t been issued by your local official.”

Because, you know, making informed decisions in the age of Trump is, well, rash.

Dr. Shepherd also noted National Weather Service statistics from 2014 showing that 66 percent of the drowning deaths in the United States that year occurred while the victims were driving.

With a life-threatening hurricane now bearing down on Texas, a fundamental issue had become politicized. Liberals criticized Mr. Abbott, arguing that he was coaxing residents to put themselves in harm’s way. On the conservative website Red State, a columnist wrote that the governor’s evacuation call was “sound and measured advice which any responsible public official would have given. But then, you wouldn’t be holding a position of responsibility in Harris County, TX.”

Still, Mr. King, the mayor’s competitor in the 2015 election, said that he fully supported the mayor’s decision not to call an evacuation order. He, too, cited the experience with Hurricane Rita.

“It was a nightmare,” he said. “On a normal day, our roadways are not designed to handle that many people moving in one direction. Gas stations don’t keep that much of an inventory of gas on hand. Some cars are going to be old and break down. And usually when this happens, it’s hot as hell in Houston. You put people not in good health in that situation, it’s a recipe for disaster.”

3D, D'in hard for the dollar. Yea, you own your takeaway.

the president of the alt-stupid club thinks this is about people that have the means to evacuate, that my contempt is over the guy who can simply hop in his Tahoe and GTFO on a dime but instead listened to the mayor and stayed and rode the storm out with Netflix on the HD with shrimp cocktails and small batch bourbon.

Guess I won the electoral college?

Thats the furthest thing from my mind. But nice misrepresentation and spin. 3D'ing to a whole new level. Enjoy your pee not norry.

Go Beavers

unsung said:

CM189191 said:

Completely stupid.

My free market solution was to donate to a worthy agency, in this case Citizens Assisting Citizens.  No overhead to pay off govt people.

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

Houston Mayor really failed these people.

How so?

He told everyone to stay put.  Just like Katrina people should have got out.  It was very clear how bad this was going to be.

So you wanted the government to tell people what to do?

Fine.  Stay.  Don't cry on TV that your house got flooded out.

Private charities have administrative costs, too. Some way too high. 

PJ_Soul

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

Houston Mayor really failed these people.

How so?

He told everyone to stay put.  Just like Katrina people should have got out.  It was very clear how bad this was going to be.

So you wanted the government to tell people what to do?

Fine.  Stay.  Don't cry on TV that your house got flooded out.

Evacuating doesn't prevent one's house from getting flooded out ...

PJ_Soul

A 1 in 1000 year event (note that this is a debatable stat) ...... I'm thinking the extent of the flooding itself is likely thanks to the paving over of wetlands, from the articles I've read.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2017/08/31/harvey-is-a-1000-year-flood-event-unprecedented-in-scale/?utm_term=.f83c6d9d144b&wpisrc=al_alert-national&wpmk=1

unsung

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

Houston Mayor really failed these people.

How so?

He told everyone to stay put.  Just like Katrina people should have got out.  It was very clear how bad this was going to be.

So you wanted the government to tell people what to do?

Fine.  Stay.  Don't cry on TV that your house got flooded out.

Evacuating doesn't prevent one's house from getting flooded out ...

Yeah, I know, but that wasn't the point.

unsung

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

CM189191 said:

Completely stupid.

My free market solution was to donate to a worthy agency, in this case Citizens Assisting Citizens.  No overhead to pay off govt people.

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

Houston Mayor really failed these people.

How so?

He told everyone to stay put.  Just like Katrina people should have got out.  It was very clear how bad this was going to be.

So you wanted the government to tell people what to do?

Fine.  Stay.  Don't cry on TV that your house got flooded out.

Private charities have administrative costs, too. Some way too high. 

There is definately abuse from both markets, research is necessary.  I donated to this group.

http://www.cacteam.com/

PJ_Soul

unsung said:

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

Houston Mayor really failed these people.

How so?

He told everyone to stay put.  Just like Katrina people should have got out.  It was very clear how bad this was going to be.

So you wanted the government to tell people what to do?

Fine.  Stay.  Don't cry on TV that your house got flooded out.

Evacuating doesn't prevent one's house from getting flooded out ...

Yeah, I know, but that wasn't the point.

What is the point? That people who just lost everything they own shouldn't cry on TV?

oftenreading

PJ_Soul said:

A 1 in 1000 year event (note that this is a debatable stat) ...... I'm thinking the extent of the flooding itself is likely thanks to the paving over of wetlands, from the articles I've read.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2017/08/31/harvey-is-a-1000-year-flood-event-unprecedented-in-scale/?utm_term=.f83c6d9d144b&wpisrc=al_alert-national&wpmk=1

Yes. No argument that the extent of the flooding is largely due to the lack of anywhere else for the water to go. When huge areas of land are paved, the water can't help but sit there. 

oftenreading

PJ_Soul said:

I think this blind guess about how many people might have died on the roads in an evacuation is a bit stupid.

Not a blind guess; it references past evacuations. 

Sure, you can argue that cities should have better evacuation plans, but the reality is that there is no way that a large city like Houston can fully evacuate over a couple of days. It's physically impossible to get all those people out in an orderly, safe manner. And if you could, where do 4 million people go?

unsung

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

Houston Mayor really failed these people.

How so?

He told everyone to stay put.  Just like Katrina people should have got out.  It was very clear how bad this was going to be.

So you wanted the government to tell people what to do?

Fine.  Stay.  Don't cry on TV that your house got flooded out.

Evacuating doesn't prevent one's house from getting flooded out ...

Yeah, I know, but that wasn't the point.

What is the point? That people who just lost everything they own shouldn't cry on TV?

Ugh.

PJPOWER

CM189191 said:

Of course you are talking about social programs, right?  There is a difference in social services/programs and a Socialist Government.  The Bernie bros made that clear on a daily basis back when the dude was relevant.  Most people aren't against social services such as FEMA or firefighters, but many are against Socialism style governments that fully try to exclude the free market.