Hurricane Harvey

Go Beavers

JC29856 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

Houston Mayor really failed these people.

How so?

He told everyone to stay put.  Just like Katrina people should have got out.  It was very clear how bad this was going to be.

So you wanted the government to tell people what to do?

there is something called the emergency broadcast system, ever hear of it?

I have. Is unsung aware of this government control device?

brianlux

Some interesting comments about vilifying or holding accountable the mayor though I generally agree people can make up their own mind about evacuating.

And what about accountability for making the decision to build oil refineries and chemical plants in an area prone to hurricanes (see the two articles I posted on the previous page)?  About as smart as building nuclear power near an earthquake fault zone.  We humans do some incredibly stupid things.

benjs

brianlux said:

Some interesting comments about vilifying or holding accountable the mayor though I generally agree people can make up their own mind about evacuating.

And what about accountability for making the decision to build oil refineries and chemical plants in an area prone to hurricanes (see the two articles I posted on the previous page)?  About as smart as building nuclear power near an earthquake fault zone.  We humans do some incredibly stupid things.

We humans predominantly do incredibly stupid things, and we will pay the price for that when we bring upon our own extinction, and drag the whole planet with us. All I can say, is I'm fucking tired of this all. Why do we even bother? We have too much momentum in downward directions for anything to change.

brianlux

benjs said:

brianlux said:

Some interesting comments about vilifying or holding accountable the mayor though I generally agree people can make up their own mind about evacuating.

And what about accountability for making the decision to build oil refineries and chemical plants in an area prone to hurricanes (see the two articles I posted on the previous page)?  About as smart as building nuclear power near an earthquake fault zone.  We humans do some incredibly stupid things.

We humans predominantly do incredibly stupid things, and we will pay the price for that when we bring upon our own extinction, and drag the whole planet with us. All I can say, is I'm fucking tired of this all. Why do we even bother? We have too much momentum in downward directions for anything to change.

I get discouraged too, Ben, but then I see someone (for example) like the lady we met who quit her job to become cook and generally helper on Sea Shepherd's research ship, the R/V Martin Sheen and I think, OK, I can't financially afford to do that, but I can do more than I have been.  The more we are inspired to do whatever we can to help, the more others will do the same. 

Inspiration:
 

tempo_n_groove

brianlux said:

benjs said:

brianlux said:

Some interesting comments about vilifying or holding accountable the mayor though I generally agree people can make up their own mind about evacuating.

And what about accountability for making the decision to build oil refineries and chemical plants in an area prone to hurricanes (see the two articles I posted on the previous page)?  About as smart as building nuclear power near an earthquake fault zone.  We humans do some incredibly stupid things.

We humans predominantly do incredibly stupid things, and we will pay the price for that when we bring upon our own extinction, and drag the whole planet with us. All I can say, is I'm fucking tired of this all. Why do we even bother? We have too much momentum in downward directions for anything to change.

I get discouraged too, Ben, but then I see someone (for example) like the lady we met who quit her job to become cook and generally helper on Sea Shepherd's research ship, the R/V Martin Sheen and I think, OK, I can't financially afford to do that, but I can do more than I have been.  The more we are inspired to do whatever we can to help, the more others will do the same. 

Inspiration:
 

agreed

JC29856

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

Will you ever show the same contempt for Trump's decision making, or lack thereof? Or only those of women and minorities?

dignin

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

This comment is almost unbelievable.

Someone back on the sauce?

JC29856

Halifax2TheMax said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

Will you ever show the same contempt for Trump's decision making, or lack thereof? Or only those of women and minorities?

when you show me how to build my own weather center and when often shows me how to build my own evacuation route.
as a bonus, explain how I overreact to a situation that hasn't yet happened?

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

Will you ever show the same contempt for Trump's decision making, or lack thereof? Or only those of women and minorities?

when you show me how to build my own weather center and when often shows me how to build my own evacuation route.
as a bonus, explain how I overreact to a situation that hasn't yet happened?

Alt-stupid.

JC29856

dignin said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

This comment is almost unbelievable.

Someone back on the sauce?

if you want to play, you have to follow along. Following along means, if the posts aren't directed at you, it might be a good idea to go back and read from the start for context, before alt-stupid posting.

unsung

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

Houston Mayor really failed these people.

How so?

He told everyone to stay put.  Just like Katrina people should have got out.  It was very clear how bad this was going to be.

So you wanted the government to tell people what to do?

Fine.  Stay.  Don't cry on TV that your house got flooded out.

unsung

CM189191 said:

Completely stupid.

My free market solution was to donate to a worthy agency, in this case Citizens Assisting Citizens.  No overhead to pay off govt people.

oftenreading

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

Nope, not arguing anything like that. Funny how other people can understand that, though. 

JC29856

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

your arguing above that whatever number dead from Harvey is better than 130 dead fleeing Katrina

dignin

JC29856 said:

dignin said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

This comment is almost unbelievable.

Someone back on the sauce?

if you want to play, you have to follow along. Following along means, if the posts aren't directed at you, it might be a good idea to go back and read from the start for context, before alt-stupid posting.

More nonsense. You should go back to embarrassing yourself with comments about Podesta, pizza and Antifa. 

PJ_Soul

Re the mayor's responsibility... I did hear a report before the storm that he specifically said they would not evacuate because they were concerned that it would simply cause the biggest traffic jamb of all time, and everyone would just be stuck on the highways out of town, which could get dangerous for a few reasons ... It's a pretty hard decision to make. What's better? Being stuck in your home/neighborhood in flood waters, or being stuck in your car in highway chaos? I can think of good and bad factors for both options. I don't really think it's too fair to actually be pissed at the mayor unless you know that the alternative would have been better, and I'm not sure that can be said. I suppose if everyone is stuck in a traffic jam, they are at least all gathered on the roads, which would likely make it easier for aid workers and shit. So yeah, I think the decision not to evacuate the city turned out to be the worst of two bad options in the long run, all things considered. But that isn't really his fault (and I'm sure he was listening to a lot of experts about this too; it's not like he went into a room alone and puzzled it out).

JC29856

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

your arguing it or last week before Harvey landfall you and the mayor already knew that mass evacuations would have resulted in more deaths

PJ_Soul

I think this blind guess about how many people might have died on the roads in an evacuation is a bit stupid.

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

JC29856 said:

oftenreading said:

There was no way all those people were going to be able to be evacuate in the time available. If there had been a mass evacuation order we would have seen far more deaths on the roads. Cities simply aren't bully to deal with disasters of this magnitude. 

fair point but that's a different story.
the mayor told people not to overreact. how does one take that advice, don't overreact, to something that hasn't yet happened? 

your deaths on that roads is a hypothesis based on what?

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/8-years-ago-seemingly-all-of-Houston-evacuated-4839142.php

Did you actually read that article? It's certainly short enough to read. Did you note their mention of gridlock, panicked drivers, abandoned cars that people had to walk away from?

Now imagine all of that, with the current flooding on the roads.

As cincy says above, 130 people died in that evacuation, and Rita was a far weaker storm than Harvey.

 my takeaway is...well since we haven't done anything in 12 years to mitigate the risks of natural disasters, evacuation routes, drainage etc, let's wait until it's too late to advise what to do.
very sensible.

Of course that's your takeaway. It isn't anyone else's take away, but glad you own it.

your arguing from a position that the devastation and loss of life was known when the mayor made his comments last week.

that he knew last Thursday and Friday that only 50 or so people would drown in their homes or on their streets. he carefully weighed his options last Friday and determined that 50 drowned near their homes is better than 130 dying on the highways trying to flee.
it's nice that he can risk others peoples lives and have people like you defend his calculations.
since were playing 20/20, how many deaths would it take to justify his actions? any number less than 130?

Will you ever show the same contempt for Trump's decision making, or lack thereof? Or only those of women and minorities?

when you show me how to build my own weather center and when often shows me how to build my own evacuation route.
as a bonus, explain how I overreact to a situation that hasn't yet happened?

Do you have any contempt for the white, republican adminstrative county judge known as "Hunker Down Ed?"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/us/houston-mayor-evacuation-dilemma.html?mcubz=0

When Hurricane Harvey began brewing offshore, Mr. Turner began meeting at least a week ago with Harris County Judge Ed Emmett, the county’s top executive and a Republican well-known for his experience and skill at dealing with storms: His nickname is “Hunker Down Ed.”

Governor's advice or word should pull more weight, right?

Then, in a Friday news conference, Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas said that residents of Houston, the coast and in between should “strongly consider evacuating” even if an order “hasn’t been issued by your local official.”

Because, you know, making informed decisions in the age of Trump is, well, rash.

Dr. Shepherd also noted National Weather Service statistics from 2014 showing that 66 percent of the drowning deaths in the United States that year occurred while the victims were driving.

With a life-threatening hurricane now bearing down on Texas, a fundamental issue had become politicized. Liberals criticized Mr. Abbott, arguing that he was coaxing residents to put themselves in harm’s way. On the conservative website Red State, a columnist wrote that the governor’s evacuation call was “sound and measured advice which any responsible public official would have given. But then, you wouldn’t be holding a position of responsibility in Harris County, TX.”

Still, Mr. King, the mayor’s competitor in the 2015 election, said that he fully supported the mayor’s decision not to call an evacuation order. He, too, cited the experience with Hurricane Rita.

“It was a nightmare,” he said. “On a normal day, our roadways are not designed to handle that many people moving in one direction. Gas stations don’t keep that much of an inventory of gas on hand. Some cars are going to be old and break down. And usually when this happens, it’s hot as hell in Houston. You put people not in good health in that situation, it’s a recipe for disaster.”

3D, D'in hard for the dollar. Yea, you own your takeaway.