The Concept of God

rgambs

Nami said:

rgambs said:

Nami said:

ok how about a soul in general?   One that deciphers good from bad, whats wrong or right?

I asked my parents, no hits to the head when younger.... nothing from drugs/alcohol.... had the belief before and after.  ha

No, absolutely not.
Determining what is right and wrong is a cognitive function, it arises from the ability to analyze the world to a high degree.  A soul would need to be independent of the corporeal body to survive biological death, there is no evidence that such a force exists.  Human consciousness can be manipulated by physical stimuli, so where is the soul and what does it do if it has nothing to do with how you think, behave, and feel?
Does it make more sense that a cockroach doesn't know right from wrong because it has a small brain, or does it make more sense that God decided to make living creatures with souls and other living creatures without souls?

so no soul, but a consciousness sculpted by society and learned behavior.  

i believe every animal has a soul... a spirit inside that keeps all connected in this world.

Does yeast have a soul?  Do viruses and bacteria? 
They are living creatures that have a profound effect on their local piece of the universe.  If life is the condition for a soul, where does that begin and end?  Is the soul of a snail equal to the soul of Mother Theresa?
What about the forces themselves, they move and shape the world, should they not have souls as well? 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I tend to think of someone's soul as their legacy and the memories they leave behind for others.

I speak of my best friend often who was killed on his motorcycle by some drunk idiot (just about 30 years ago... holy f**k).

I have another buddy who passed about five years ago. We hadn't great times together in Mexico on two occasions. Me and my friends always tell Carey stories and laugh. 

I can vividly picture both these guys and in that way... they have survived. 

FoxyRedLa

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

FoxyRedLa

If God did "show" Himself, would everyone then believe?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

FoxyRedLa said:

If God did "show" Himself, would everyone then believe?

Yes. Of course.

But not as an image made in my cereal bowl with Cheerios or as a momentary cloud configuration.

If he introduced himself and said, "Hey idiots. Clean up your act. I'm kinda getting pissed off"... I'd believe. I'd even high five people.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

FoxyRedLa said:

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

Trying to be helpful?

Believe what you want. If you aren't harming anyone or anything in any way... you can do as you please and be my friend as far as I'm concerned.

One of my best friends is a devout Christian. Of course... twice a year... we will get into the discussion. But it is only a discussion. He's still the same friend after the discussion.

rgambs

FoxyRedLa said:

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

Do not believe in Satan or Hell.  That is what started me down the path of atheism.
Why would God allow someone he can destroy to continue existing with the purpose of separating us from His love?
How on Earth can we worship a deity which threatens to torture us for eternity if we displease Him?

He is vain and needy, if He exists.  Hundreds of times He commands us to worship him, love him, forsake all others, don't dare to speak ill of him, and spread his name, all under penalty of eternal torture.
"He died for us" 
That part of the story is incredibly convoluted and makes no sense.
God split a piece off of himself that is an autonomous, separate being that is somehow still him.  Then he sends that being that is Himself to Earth to experience bodily torture resulting in physical death for the benefit of everyone.  How does that make sense?  God decided He had to make a sacrifice of a piece of Himself so that He can forgive the transgressions of others?  Only to have Himself back by His side in paradise anyways, just after having endured torture.  What am arbitrary setup, if He has the capacity to forgive, then forgive, don't go through some convoluted symbolic scheme.

The Big Bang is an explanation for how the universe erupted from a singularity, not a theory for the explanation of existence.  There are many theories on that topic, but no credible evidence so far.  At that multiversal, epic scale of existence, I am willing to acknowledge a spark which some would identify as God, though I am entirely unwilling to believe it is the patriarchal, terribly flawed deity described by Judeo-Christian tradition.  That deity isn't fit to be a father of one child, let alone father to billions and creator of existence.

Your final question.
The answer is the same as why people who believe want to actively convince other to do so as well.
We think we know the root of others' suffering and we think we know a better path toward alleviating that suffering.
The only difference is there are a gazillion times more people on your side, and they use fear and manipulative tactics as opposed to evidence and logic.

rgambs

If God showed himself, there would be incontrovertible evidence for His existence and every atheist I know would acknowledge that.
It wouldn't be belief, it would be knowledge.

rgambs

Also, the focus would shift to determining what sort of motivation and gall could inspire Him to require someone like a Holocaust victim to ask Him for forgiveness.

FoxyRedLa

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

FoxyRedLa said:

If God did "show" Himself, would everyone then believe?

Yes. Of course.

But not as an image made in my cereal bowl with Cheerios or as a momentary cloud configuration.

If he introduced himself and said, "Hey idiots. Clean up your act. I'm kinda getting pissed off"... I'd believe. I'd even high five people.

I needed that laugh. Thank you.

brianlux

The question, whether or not we have a soul intrigues me because I sense that I do have a soul but there is no empirical evidence of its existence.  The same with what we call "the muse".  I have experienced what feels like the muse both in dreams and while awake, particularly in a few creative moments while playing music, writing and painting, but in no way can I say with any certainty there is a verifiable muse.

FoxyRedLa

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

FoxyRedLa said:

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

Trying to be helpful?

Believe what you want. If you aren't harming anyone or anything in any way... you can do as you please and be my friend as far as I'm concerned.

One of my best friends is a devout Christian. Of course... twice a year... we will get into the discussion. But it is only a discussion. He's still the same friend after the discussion.

Not sure what trying to be helpful was about.

My apologies if I sparked a reaction. I thought we were discussing and I haven't ever asked a none believer any questions before because I too the same don't care not my business. 

I too have friends that don't believe or are on the fense. We don't discuss the topic mostly because I'm a hermit. Sometimes I don't like to talk.

FoxyRedLa

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

Do not believe in Satan or Hell.  That is what started me down the path of atheism.
Why would God allow someone he can destroy to continue existing with the purpose of separating us from His love?
How on Earth can we worship a deity which threatens to torture us for eternity if we displease Him?

He is vain and needy, if He exists.  Hundreds of times He commands us to worship him, love him, forsake all others, don't dare to speak ill of him, and spread his name, all under penalty of eternal torture.
"He died for us" 
That part of the story is incredibly convoluted and makes no sense.
God split a piece off of himself that is an autonomous, separate being that is somehow still him.  Then he sends that being that is Himself to Earth to experience bodily torture resulting in physical death for the benefit of everyone.  How does that make sense?  God decided He had to make a sacrifice of a piece of Himself so that He can forgive the transgressions of others?  Only to have Himself back by His side in paradise anyways, just after having endured torture.  What am arbitrary setup, if He has the capacity to forgive, then forgive, don't go through some convoluted symbolic scheme.

The Big Bang is an explanation for how the universe erupted from a singularity, not a theory for the explanation of existence.  There are many theories on that topic, but no credible evidence so far.  At that multiversal, epic scale of existence, I am willing to acknowledge a spark which some would identify as God, though I am entirely unwilling to believe it is the patriarchal, terribly flawed deity described by Judeo-Christian tradition.  That deity isn't fit to be a father of one child, let alone father to billions and creator of existence.

Your final question.
The answer is the same as why people who believe want to actively convince other to do so as well.
We think we know the root of others' suffering and we think we know a better path toward alleviating that suffering.
The only difference is there are a gazillion times more people on your side, and they use fear and manipulative tactics as opposed to evidence and logic.

I hear what you're saying. But all I read is the organized part of it. That I'm not apart of.

FoxyRedLa

rgambs said:

If God showed himself, there would be incontrovertible evidence for His existence and every atheist I know would acknowledge that.
It wouldn't be belief, it would be knowledge.

The reason I ask is I wonder if it would just then be said to be a hoax. Like the laugh I got above. Seems someone would just find a way to talk it away.

rgambs

FoxyRedLa said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

FoxyRedLa said:

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

Trying to be helpful?

Believe what you want. If you aren't harming anyone or anything in any way... you can do as you please and be my friend as far as I'm concerned.

One of my best friends is a devout Christian. Of course... twice a year... we will get into the discussion. But it is only a discussion. He's still the same friend after the discussion.

Not sure what trying to be helpful was about.

My apologies if I sparked a reaction. I thought we were discussing and I haven't ever asked a none believer any questions before because I too the same don't care not my business. 

I too have friends that don't believe or are on the fense. We don't discuss the topic mostly because I'm a hermit. Sometimes I don't like to talk.

I believe thirty was saying that atheists try to turn believers around to be helpful, as a light-hearted joke.
No transgression on your part, it's good to have you in the discussion!
It's a tough discussion to have for believers, much of the argument for atheism can be inherently offensive to believers, but it might help if you remember that the argument for belief can be inherently offensive to non-believers as well.  We all have a different perspective, explaining and comparing those differences is illustrative to ourselves and those with whom we share the discussion.

rgambs

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

Do not believe in Satan or Hell.  That is what started me down the path of atheism.
Why would God allow someone he can destroy to continue existing with the purpose of separating us from His love?
How on Earth can we worship a deity which threatens to torture us for eternity if we displease Him?

He is vain and needy, if He exists.  Hundreds of times He commands us to worship him, love him, forsake all others, don't dare to speak ill of him, and spread his name, all under penalty of eternal torture.
"He died for us" 
That part of the story is incredibly convoluted and makes no sense.
God split a piece off of himself that is an autonomous, separate being that is somehow still him.  Then he sends that being that is Himself to Earth to experience bodily torture resulting in physical death for the benefit of everyone.  How does that make sense?  God decided He had to make a sacrifice of a piece of Himself so that He can forgive the transgressions of others?  Only to have Himself back by His side in paradise anyways, just after having endured torture.  What am arbitrary setup, if He has the capacity to forgive, then forgive, don't go through some convoluted symbolic scheme.

The Big Bang is an explanation for how the universe erupted from a singularity, not a theory for the explanation of existence.  There are many theories on that topic, but no credible evidence so far.  At that multiversal, epic scale of existence, I am willing to acknowledge a spark which some would identify as God, though I am entirely unwilling to believe it is the patriarchal, terribly flawed deity described by Judeo-Christian tradition.  That deity isn't fit to be a father of one child, let alone father to billions and creator of existence.

Your final question.
The answer is the same as why people who believe want to actively convince other to do so as well.
We think we know the root of others' suffering and we think we know a better path toward alleviating that suffering.
The only difference is there are a gazillion times more people on your side, and they use fear and manipulative tactics as opposed to evidence and logic.

I hear what you're saying. But all I read is the organized part of it. That I'm not apart of.

Am I reading this right, that you are not a true believer of the traditional Judeo-Christian God?
That makes a big difference in the discussion for sure, it is the surety of that position that sinks it.

FoxyRedLa

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

FoxyRedLa said:

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

Trying to be helpful?

Believe what you want. If you aren't harming anyone or anything in any way... you can do as you please and be my friend as far as I'm concerned.

One of my best friends is a devout Christian. Of course... twice a year... we will get into the discussion. But it is only a discussion. He's still the same friend after the discussion.

Not sure what trying to be helpful was about.

My apologies if I sparked a reaction. I thought we were discussing and I haven't ever asked a none believer any questions before because I too the same don't care not my business. 

I too have friends that don't believe or are on the fense. We don't discuss the topic mostly because I'm a hermit. Sometimes I don't like to talk.

I believe thirty was saying that atheists try to turn believers around to be helpful, as a light-hearted joke.
No transgression on your part, it's good to have you in the discussion!
It's a tough discussion to have for believers, much of the argument for atheism can be inherently offensive to believers, but it might help if you remember that the argument for belief can be inherently offensive to non-believers as well.  We all have a different perspective, explaining and comparing those differences is illustrative to ourselves and those with whom we share the discussion.

Ah, yes makes sense. Ty.

FoxyRedLa

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

Do not believe in Satan or Hell.  That is what started me down the path of atheism.
Why would God allow someone he can destroy to continue existing with the purpose of separating us from His love?
How on Earth can we worship a deity which threatens to torture us for eternity if we displease Him?

He is vain and needy, if He exists.  Hundreds of times He commands us to worship him, love him, forsake all others, don't dare to speak ill of him, and spread his name, all under penalty of eternal torture.
"He died for us" 
That part of the story is incredibly convoluted and makes no sense.
God split a piece off of himself that is an autonomous, separate being that is somehow still him.  Then he sends that being that is Himself to Earth to experience bodily torture resulting in physical death for the benefit of everyone.  How does that make sense?  God decided He had to make a sacrifice of a piece of Himself so that He can forgive the transgressions of others?  Only to have Himself back by His side in paradise anyways, just after having endured torture.  What am arbitrary setup, if He has the capacity to forgive, then forgive, don't go through some convoluted symbolic scheme.

The Big Bang is an explanation for how the universe erupted from a singularity, not a theory for the explanation of existence.  There are many theories on that topic, but no credible evidence so far.  At that multiversal, epic scale of existence, I am willing to acknowledge a spark which some would identify as God, though I am entirely unwilling to believe it is the patriarchal, terribly flawed deity described by Judeo-Christian tradition.  That deity isn't fit to be a father of one child, let alone father to billions and creator of existence.

Your final question.
The answer is the same as why people who believe want to actively convince other to do so as well.
We think we know the root of others' suffering and we think we know a better path toward alleviating that suffering.
The only difference is there are a gazillion times more people on your side, and they use fear and manipulative tactics as opposed to evidence and logic.

I hear what you're saying. But all I read is the organized part of it. That I'm not apart of.

Am I reading this right, that you are not a true believer of the traditional Judeo-Christian God?
That makes a big difference in the discussion for sure, it is the surety of that position that sinks it.

I'm not traditional. I was raised Roman Catholic but not actively in church up to a certain point we did. I now am not of any denomination. I don't twist things to work in my favor. I know the basics and live.

What is traditional? The thumpers? The organized we see today? Or those that got to church 3 days a week? Or just holidays?

I also don't feel bad for non believers - their life. Meaning those that will dramatize.

rgambs

What I meant was the belief in the Bible and the precepts it puts forward.

It is that tradition which I reject strongly, much more so than broad ranges of belief in higher powers.

HughFreakingDillon

FoxyRedLa said:

I don't remember everything in this thread - those that do not believe do you believe is Satan? Believe in hell? 

I'm still thinking about Him being vain and needy. He died for us.

Those that don't believe what do you believe? The Big Bang? That theory doesn't fully explain either.

Has any none believer thought why they feel they have to actively convince believers He is not?

this has come up before. i don't know any atheists that try to actively convince others there is no god. people have discussions, but no atheist is going door to door saying 'hey, i'd like to talk to you about no god'. 

the vain and needy thing, i believe, comes from the stories in the bible where god insists everyone listen to him and obey him and then he kills nearly everyone for forgetting about him. 

the big bang doesn't fully explain it, no. but, i have also read that some scientists are moving away from that theory, that there was no beginning to the universe. just 'always there', which is the same thing people say about god, ironically.