The Concept of God

HughFreakingDillon

a discussion evolved out of the Manchester bombing thread. Figured we should start one on its own, and hopefully it doesn't suffer the same fate as previous discussions on this topic. 

HughFreakingDillon

so basically the point of this thread is not to argue about faith, or try to convince someone else that you are right or they are wrong. just, what do you think god is, if you believe a god exists?

OnWis97

I did not see that thread, so I apologize if I am off course.

Me: Agnostic, officially, in that I don't know nuthin.'  My gut may be closer to atheist than some agnostics.
My faith: Because I am agnostic, people may tell me I have no faith. But I do...one lone piece of faith.  I have faith that "being wrong" does not send one to an eternal fiery pit.

The concept of god and religion makes tons of sense to me.  It's natural for people to ask "why are we here" and "what happens when we die."  I understand that it's unsettling to think that once you die, you just cease to be...though that's my best guess.

And a lot of comfort and good can come from it.  Unfortunately, it's evolved in a way that has opened doors to exploitation of the followers, be it by taking their money or exploiting their faith to get them to do things in the name of god/religion.  And from where I sit, as someone that does not believe in so much of what organized religion teaches, it sets a lot of rules that help create a culture of control.  

And some of those rules have prevented us from simply being able to live and let live regarding different beliefs on life and the afterlife.  Or we've allowed it to happen. Or the exploiters make it happen. Or all three.

dignin

rgambs

God, by definition, is a deity.  A being. 
How much power is attributed to the deity varies, but the fact that it is a sovereign being is necessary to the definition of the concept.
I strongly consider myself an atheist because I do not believe in an invisible deity that has power over the universe and my life.  I think most people are hesitant to call themselves atheists, or accept that their views are atheistic.  
Saying "I believe there may be some kind of higher purpose, plan, or power" doesn't make you an agnostic.  To be agnostic you would need to accept the possibility of a deity, and many of the people who use those vague pantheistic descriptions do not accept the idea of the old man in the sky wagging his finger.

HesCalledDyer

I love that you started this thread at 4:20!  (Although, I guess it's only 3:20 for you.)

HughFreakingDillon

agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

rgambs

Shit yeah Rick and Morty! 
Instant classic show

PJ_Soul

I agree that the concept of God stems from people not having answers to those two questions that you cite. 100%. Fear of the unknown is absolutely the source of the belief in god. Intellectually, I get that, even though I don't have that fear. And I might even get that emotionally, if it weren't for what the concept of God became: Religion. If it weren't for religion, I would probably be a lot more easy going when it comes to people's thoughts on the concept of god. But because of religion, even the arguments for the existence of god (or the possible existence of god) by the non-religious ultimately feed religion, whether they want it to or not (yes, OnWis97, the distinction between the exploiters, exploitees, and neither is an important one). That is why I'll always stand up strongly against the concept as well as the organization and manipulation of that concept.

However opposed I am to the concept and its manifestations, though, it certainly is the most fascinating topic of discussion in the history of the world.

rgambs

HughFreakingDillon said:

agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

Yeah, it's been pretty common for me to hear that people don't believe in God in the traditional Judeo-Christian sense, but "..."

There's that saying about everything after the but...

rgambs

PJ_Soul said:

I agree that the concept of God stems from people not having answers to those two questions that you cite. 100%. Fear of the unknown is absolutely the source of the belief in god. Intellectually, I get that, even though I don't have that fear. And I might even get that emotionally, if it weren't for what the concept of God became: Religion. If it weren't for religion, I would probably be a lot more easy going when it comes to people's thoughts on the concept of god. But because of religion, even the arguments for the existence of god (or the possible existence of god) by the non-religious ultimately feed religion, whether they want it to or not (yes, OnWis97, the distinction between the exploiters, exploitees, and neither is an important one). That is why I'll always stand up strongly against the concept as well as the organization and manipulation of that concept.

However opposed I am to the concept and its manifestations, though, it certainly is the most fascinating topic of discussion in the history of the world.

Actually that would have to go to the cilantro debate.
Or maybe Hellman's vs Miracle Whip.

PJ_Soul

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree that the concept of God stems from people not having answers to those two questions that you cite. 100%. Fear of the unknown is absolutely the source of the belief in god. Intellectually, I get that, even though I don't have that fear. And I might even get that emotionally, if it weren't for what the concept of God became: Religion. If it weren't for religion, I would probably be a lot more easy going when it comes to people's thoughts on the concept of god. But because of religion, even the arguments for the existence of god (or the possible existence of god) by the non-religious ultimately feed religion, whether they want it to or not (yes, OnWis97, the distinction between the exploiters, exploitees, and neither is an important one). That is why I'll always stand up strongly against the concept as well as the organization and manipulation of that concept.

However opposed I am to the concept and its manifestations, though, it certainly is the most fascinating topic of discussion in the history of the world.

Actually that would have to go to the cilantro debate.
Or maybe Hellman's vs Miracle Whip.

Religion is quite obviously Miracle Whip, lol.

HesCalledDyer

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree that the concept of God stems from people not having answers to those two questions that you cite. 100%. Fear of the unknown is absolutely the source of the belief in god. Intellectually, I get that, even though I don't have that fear. And I might even get that emotionally, if it weren't for what the concept of God became: Religion. If it weren't for religion, I would probably be a lot more easy going when it comes to people's thoughts on the concept of god. But because of religion, even the arguments for the existence of god (or the possible existence of god) by the non-religious ultimately feed religion, whether they want it to or not (yes, OnWis97, the distinction between the exploiters, exploitees, and neither is an important one). That is why I'll always stand up strongly against the concept as well as the organization and manipulation of that concept.

However opposed I am to the concept and its manifestations, though, it certainly is the most fascinating topic of discussion in the history of the world.

Actually that would have to go to the cilantro debate.
Or maybe Hellman's vs Miracle Whip.

Religion is quite obviously Miracle Whip, lol.

Indeed.  Get this off my plate!

HughFreakingDillon

I love Miracle Whip. 

Now I'm confused. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

I love Miracle Whip. 

Now I'm confused. 

I'm pretty sure that makes you a Bible thumper, lol.

HughFreakingDillon

riley540 said:

It's impossible to prove, ot disprove god. 

rgambs said:

It shouldn't be necessary.  At all.
Any God worth his salt would say, "Dudes, what the fuck is up with the war and the rape and the murder, the starving children, the terrorism, and the poverty?? Get your shit together!"

The fact that God hasn't done so is proof.  Proof that God doesn't exist, or proof that if God exists, God is shitty.

HughFreakingDillon

tbergs said:

There's more options than that. Free will; the best and worst gift humans were given. If we wish to destroy ourselves, so be it. That's not proof or disproof of god.

HughFreakingDillon

rgambs said:

Sounds like a weak attempt to sidestep God's responsibility. 
"It's all part of my infinite plan.
Except if it sucks, then it's human free will.
Oh yeah, concerning that, I'm giving you free will as an option to torture each other in every conceivable way, and I know you will use it to do just that.  Not my fault, your the one with the free will."

HughFreakingDillon

tbergs said:
Why should it be god's or any other higher beings responsibility to play puppet master? I think it's ridiculous for human beings to look at the atrocities that occur in our world and then use that as a reason to proclaim there is no god. That's sidestepping responsibility on our part. I don't see a god so it doesn't exist. Well, anyone here see an atom around them? 

Think of it this way, you raise your children to be good responsible and kind individuals, but they still won't always make the right choice or do the right thing, even if you helicopter parent and then even less so. Is that god's fault because they are allowed free thought?

Imagine a god that didn't allow free will, everything you did or said was controlled and measured to an extent to achieve a certain result. Sounds a lot like a dictator, which no one here likes. I guess if we were mindless zombies then there would never be any issues, but you wouldn't know the difference because you wouldn't be allowed to think. Happiness would ensue worldwide.

Didn't mean to take this to a god conversation, but I think it's important to recognize that without happy we wouldn't know sad. Atrocity is a necessary evil that I wish upon no one, but it serves a purpose. 

HughFreakingDillon

pjsoul said:
I think all the other terrible things that happen to people and animals is part of an argument against God. The things that aren't atrocities determined by free will. Drought, famine, horrible disease, devastating natural disasters, human nature ... Seriously, I don't understand how anyone who actually believes in God doesn't hate his guts. 

HughFreakingDillon

rgambs said:
Don't claim omnipotence if you can't back it up!

HughFreakingDillon

tbergs said:
Well, if you believe the bible, that happened about 2000 years ago, but my past lives' memories escape me and I don't know how accurate the written accounts are. Can't dispute it either way, but that's part of the challenge. You either have the faith or you don't. I have faith of a higher power, but question its historical identity and origin.

HughFreakingDillon

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjsoul said:
I think all the other terrible things that happen to people and animals is part of an argument against God. The things that aren't atrocities determined by free will. Drought, famine, horrible disease, devastating natural disasters, human nature ... Seriously, I don't understand how anyone who actually believes in God doesn't hate his guts. 

tbergs said:
I'll go back to this argument again. For the most part parents have children that they want to be decent human beings, but it doesn't always happen because they only have the ability to create life. Why can't the same be true of a god? They create life, but can't dictate how that life is lived or how it acts because we are born with our own thoughts and minds.

As I've said, I don't specifically believe in god, but a higher being, and I don't blame it for the shitty actions of humans. That's on us to figure out

HughFreakingDillon

HughFreakingDillon said:

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well, then why did he kill everyone except noah and all the animals that one time? i thought he was a live and let live type of deity. 

tbergs said:

I'm not a purveyor of the biblical story because I don't believe in any religion's god narrative; just that there is a higher being.

If we're taking about the Noah story, well we'd already been around for thousands of years, much longer than it has been since the proclaimed event in historical terms, so whose to say it can't happen again if that's a true story. Or we all go the way of the dinosaur. Either way I won't be there in my current incarnation so none of this will matter in the end. Life is infinite in some form or another and nothing we do will change that.

HughFreakingDillon

HughFreakingDillon said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjsoul said:
I think all the other terrible things that happen to people and animals is part of an argument against God. The things that aren't atrocities determined by free will. Drought, famine, horrible disease, devastating natural disasters, human nature ... Seriously, I don't understand how anyone who actually believes in God doesn't hate his guts. 

tbergs said:
I'll go back to this argument again. For the most part parents have children that they want to be decent human beings, but it doesn't always happen because they only have the ability to create life. Why can't the same be true of a god? They create life, but can't dictate how that life is lived or how it acts because we are born with our own thoughts and minds.

As I've said, I don't specifically believe in god, but a higher being, and I don't blame it for the shitty actions of humans. That's on us to figure out

pjsoul said:

True. Also, God or any random higher being one might imagine can blow jelly beans out of volcanoes and make it rain trumpets, but can't thread a golden needle with the hair of all mankind. In other words, literally anything can be said about God/a higher being - I don't see how any statement is more valid than another when it is all completely made up out of thin air. 

ponytd

I believe in God. I grew up in the church (Church of Christ actually) and went to a Church of Christ school. Like so many others, I grew up believing in God because my parents did and I went to church. As I've grown up though, I've questioned a lot. Mostly to myself, but to others also. I don't have the same viewpoints as I did when I was younger. But I I don't really attend church that regularly anymore though. I have nothing against church, but I do question religion like PJ_Soul said. Growing up you're told you have to go to church every week. I'm fine with that, but I don't think God is going to condemn you to hell because you don't go every single time. I feel like man has tarnished God with his/her self-righteous attitude and with all the different religions that are out there, and basically people just picked and choose what they feel is best for them and created all these different religions. I feel like that is one of the biggest reasons why people have a problem with religion. And I totally get it. I could be wrong there, but from some I've heard from that is a huge reason.

p.s. if I don't respond it's just because I'm leaving work and got plans tonight and then playing golf tomorrow. not because I'm scared of any questions or discussions lol

HughFreakingDillon

HughFreakingDillon said:

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watching the Simpsons Treehouse of Horror episode "The Genesis Tub" put alot of this in perspective. 

tbergs said:

Whatever works for you. Doesn't matter to me whether someone believes or thinks it's all bullshit. I was Lutheran, then I was atheist and now I'm more of a higher being type believer. Imagine if all digital media was destroyed and lost regarding some of the major events that have happened in the last 100 years and then fast forward 2000 years from now and all you have are some written accounts that vary from a Fox News to a CNN perspective. Where's the middle ground? Hard to believe anything you can't touch, taste, hear, smell or see.

Anyway, I'm going to go eat some Jelly Bean and wait for the next volcano explosion  

HughFreakingDillon

hescalleddyer said:

I'm reminded of the scene in Devil's Advocate where John (Al Pacino) is going off about God to Kevin (Keanu Reeves)...

Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, fuckin' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER! 

HughFreakingDillon

I'm somewhere in the middle between atheist and agnostic. it depends on the day, really. usually lean atheist, but then if I have time to sit and think too much about how fucking big the universe is and how it got created and how and why and all that, I can't help but think there was some sort of manufacturer to all of this. 

but the christian god I was taught about as a kid? NOPE. 

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

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Are you saying religion is at the root of these crimes?

gobeavers said:

It's not the root, because it's no longer the religion at that point (if this question was directed at me. Quotes seem extra messy today)

HughFreakingDillon

HughFreakingDillon said:

I'm somewhere in the middle between atheist and agnostic. it depends on the day, really. usually lean atheist, but then if I have time to sit and think too much about how fucking big the universe is and how it got created and how and why and all that, I can't help but think there was some sort of manufacturer to all of this. 

but the christian god I was taught about as a kid? NOPE. 

pjsoul said:

So who manufactured the manufacturer?