The Concept of God

RYME

rgambs said:

Our local churches seem to be competing for a "worst sign quote" award.
The latest isn't stupid, but it's a nasty message.
"If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans."
Sure, that's a great message... "What's that little Timmy?  You want to be a fireman?  Hah!  God's laughing at you because he's going to wreck your plans!"

Some recent hall of famers:
"Love doesn't rub it in, it rubs it out"
"Cross-eyed people have the best vision."
"The best gift for Mother's Day is time spent on your knees."
That last one came down quick.

See, where does it say that in the Bible?  These goofy local churches.  There's one near me to that continues to put out what they think is a clever new saying for the week.  Usually lame, not funny, and misleading.
"If you want to make god laugh tell him your plans." wtf?  God is NOT standing there with a big ELECTRIC cattle prod looking for people to zap.  He actually wants to help you succeed in life.

rgambs

RYME said:

rgambs said:

Our local churches seem to be competing for a "worst sign quote" award.
The latest isn't stupid, but it's a nasty message.
"If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans."
Sure, that's a great message... "What's that little Timmy?  You want to be a fireman?  Hah!  God's laughing at you because he's going to wreck your plans!"

Some recent hall of famers:
"Love doesn't rub it in, it rubs it out"
"Cross-eyed people have the best vision."
"The best gift for Mother's Day is time spent on your knees."
That last one came down quick.

See, where does it say that in the Bible?  These goofy local churches.  There's one near me to that continues to put out what they think is a clever new saying for the week.  Usually lame, not funny, and misleading.
"If you want to make god laugh tell him your plans." wtf?  God is NOT standing there with a big cattle prod looking for people to zap.  He actually wants to help you succeed in life.

Yeah, it's a pretty fucked up thing to put on your sign.
Honestly though, the Bible supports it pretty well.
Abraham, Job, Uriah the Hittite, everyone who worships Molloch or Seth or Baal.  God certainly fucked with them pretty sadistically.

brianlux

Some of these church signs (you can find a whole raft of them on Google images) are pretty funny, most are lame.  They give the impression that these places are more geared toward being comedy clubs.  I'm not particularly religious but at least I don't have to feel embarrassed by the church I grew up in (Presbyterian).  The teaching/preaching there was a bit of a milk toast experience for me ("the frozen chosen") but at least it sincere and there was a concern for peoples well being here on earth with an emphasis on love and forgiveness rather than lame jokes and hell and damnation bullshit.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

OP  With all due respect you started this thread with
"so basically the point of this thread is not to argue about faith, or try to convince someone else that you are right or they are wrong. just, what do you think god is, if you believe a god exists?

Now I'm not one to argue semantics but as a person who does not believe god exists suggests that anyone who thinks this way as well should not post in this thread.  I believe anything religious orientated will bring cross opines.  I understand the rules of respecting a thread but one can't interject every now and then like the hand of god to sway a conversation that was based on a pointed question.

the original question had zero to do with religion, you can talk about belief in a god without steering it that way. but people always have to chime in and talk about how stupid everyone else's beliefs are to put themselves back in their tower above everyone else. i don't get why it can't be a respectful discussion about beliefs.

one can interject any time they wish. out of town, in town, doesn't matter. there aren't statute of limitations on when i can post. you need to stop trying to be a mod. 

It really isn't that simple though, religion IS how God is defined.
Leaving religion out of it makes it a non-topic.  
Comments can be made about the nature of God, sure, but the discussion is always going to circle back the the way God is defined and worshipped.

i disagree. god has been around much longer than organized religion. religions do define god, but god does not define religion. man does. god can exist without religion. there are many people who aren't religious who believe in a higher power. my question was very simple and direct: if you believe in god, what do you think god is? 

if people can't keep religion out of it, then that's their shortfall. 

So the thread should have consisted of 15-20 people's concept of God and done?

Why is discourse so frowned upon by some?

it's not. but when that discourse careens into bashing entire groups of people, that is frowned upon. especially when that was mentioned in the first two posts. 

It's just that this thread is going along just fine - I don't understand the apparent need for an intervention into something that doesn't need it.

I also don't think that a conversation about the concept of God can adequately happen without discussing religion. It's impossible IMO.

as to your first statement: the thread was devolving. i was not the only one in thinking so. it was not an intervention. it a comment on the path of the thread. whether you think it was necessary is irrelevant. 

your second statement is false. many people believe in god and don't subscribe to nor participate in any organized religion. it's actually quite common, whether you believe it or not. it's called spirituality. 

religion being defined as the worship of god does make the opposite true. 

carry on as you wish. i commented on the state of the thread as i saw it at the time and i stand by it. 

To your comment about what I think being irrelevant: Right back at ya buddy. We're all just stating our opinions here, and one's isn't more or less relevant that the other's.

Secondly, no, my second statement isn't false. You're just misinterpreting it. I didn't say that everyone has to be religious to believe in God. I said that a conversation about the concept of God can't adequately take place without religion coming up. Those are two very different things. Sorry your thread isn't following your exact personal expectations, but that isn't how discussion forums work.

I agree with your first statement. many of your posts gave the impression you don't. 

no, I didn't misinterpret it at all. I think a discussion about what people think of god as a concept CAN take place without discussing religion. that's a limited box that people put the concept in. I was trying to get people to think outside of it. 

I don't give a shit which way the thread takes a course. threads meander, move, evolve, change, etc. I fully expected people wouldn't be able to stick to the idea I was presenting, which is why I mentioned it in the second post. I was commenting how people were treating believers in the thread, which, sadly, is always to be expected in threads like these. I have as much problem with believes talking down to non-believers as I do the other way around. 

I have my own issues with religion. But I'm not going to sit here on my high horse and talk about how stupid and crazy people are. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

OP  With all due respect you started this thread with
"so basically the point of this thread is not to argue about faith, or try to convince someone else that you are right or they are wrong. just, what do you think god is, if you believe a god exists?

Now I'm not one to argue semantics but as a person who does not believe god exists suggests that anyone who thinks this way as well should not post in this thread.  I believe anything religious orientated will bring cross opines.  I understand the rules of respecting a thread but one can't interject every now and then like the hand of god to sway a conversation that was based on a pointed question.

the original question had zero to do with religion, you can talk about belief in a god without steering it that way. but people always have to chime in and talk about how stupid everyone else's beliefs are to put themselves back in their tower above everyone else. i don't get why it can't be a respectful discussion about beliefs.

one can interject any time they wish. out of town, in town, doesn't matter. there aren't statute of limitations on when i can post. you need to stop trying to be a mod. 

It really isn't that simple though, religion IS how God is defined.
Leaving religion out of it makes it a non-topic.  
Comments can be made about the nature of God, sure, but the discussion is always going to circle back the the way God is defined and worshipped.

i disagree. god has been around much longer than organized religion. religions do define god, but god does not define religion. man does. god can exist without religion. there are many people who aren't religious who believe in a higher power. my question was very simple and direct: if you believe in god, what do you think god is? 

if people can't keep religion out of it, then that's their shortfall. 

So the thread should have consisted of 15-20 people's concept of God and done?

Why is discourse so frowned upon by some?

it's not. but when that discourse careens into bashing entire groups of people, that is frowned upon. especially when that was mentioned in the first two posts. 

It's just that this thread is going along just fine - I don't understand the apparent need for an intervention into something that doesn't need it.

I also don't think that a conversation about the concept of God can adequately happen without discussing religion. It's impossible IMO.

as to your first statement: the thread was devolving. i was not the only one in thinking so. it was not an intervention. it a comment on the path of the thread. whether you think it was necessary is irrelevant. 

your second statement is false. many people believe in god and don't subscribe to nor participate in any organized religion. it's actually quite common, whether you believe it or not. it's called spirituality. 

religion being defined as the worship of god does make the opposite true. 

carry on as you wish. i commented on the state of the thread as i saw it at the time and i stand by it. 

To your comment about what I think being irrelevant: Right back at ya buddy. We're all just stating our opinions here, and one's isn't more or less relevant that the other's.

Secondly, no, my second statement isn't false. You're just misinterpreting it. I didn't say that everyone has to be religious to believe in God. I said that a conversation about the concept of God can't adequately take place without religion coming up. Those are two very different things. Sorry your thread isn't following your exact personal expectations, but that isn't how discussion forums work.

I agree with your first statement. many of your posts gave the impression you don't. 

no, I didn't misinterpret it at all. I think a discussion about what people think of god as a concept CAN take place without discussing religion. that's a limited box that people put the concept in. I was trying to get people to think outside of it. 

I don't give a shit which way the thread takes a course. threads meander, move, evolve, change, etc. I fully expected people wouldn't be able to stick to the idea I was presenting, which is why I mentioned it in the second post. I was commenting how people were treating believers in the thread, which, sadly, is always to be expected in threads like these. I have as much problem with believes talking down to non-believers as I do the other way around. 

I have my own issues with religion. But I'm not going to sit here on my high horse and talk about how stupid and crazy people are. 

Please explain how any of my posts here give an impression of being something other than my opinion, specifically. I really really want to know how my talking about my thoughts about God and religion can give an impression of anything other than me giving my opinion. What else would it be? If you happen to think that it is simply my confident tone or something, then sorry, that is just plain unfair. Having confidence in my own opinion is a positive, not a negative. I'm getting pretty sick of having this debate with you. I feel like we've already had this conversation.

OnWis97

rgambs said:

Our local churches seem to be competing for a "worst sign quote" award.
The latest isn't stupid, but it's a nasty message.
"If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans."
Sure, that's a great message... "What's that little Timmy?  You want to be a fireman?  Hah!  God's laughing at you because he's going to wreck your plans!"

Some recent hall of famers:
"Love doesn't rub it in, it rubs it out"
"Cross-eyed people have the best vision."
"The best gift for Mother's Day is time spent on your knees."
That last one came down quick.

That bolded one is pure gold.  Well done.

The ones above and below it are pure gold, too.  But for different reasons.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

OP  With all due respect you started this thread with
"so basically the point of this thread is not to argue about faith, or try to convince someone else that you are right or they are wrong. just, what do you think god is, if you believe a god exists?

Now I'm not one to argue semantics but as a person who does not believe god exists suggests that anyone who thinks this way as well should not post in this thread.  I believe anything religious orientated will bring cross opines.  I understand the rules of respecting a thread but one can't interject every now and then like the hand of god to sway a conversation that was based on a pointed question.

the original question had zero to do with religion, you can talk about belief in a god without steering it that way. but people always have to chime in and talk about how stupid everyone else's beliefs are to put themselves back in their tower above everyone else. i don't get why it can't be a respectful discussion about beliefs.

one can interject any time they wish. out of town, in town, doesn't matter. there aren't statute of limitations on when i can post. you need to stop trying to be a mod. 

It really isn't that simple though, religion IS how God is defined.
Leaving religion out of it makes it a non-topic.  
Comments can be made about the nature of God, sure, but the discussion is always going to circle back the the way God is defined and worshipped.

i disagree. god has been around much longer than organized religion. religions do define god, but god does not define religion. man does. god can exist without religion. there are many people who aren't religious who believe in a higher power. my question was very simple and direct: if you believe in god, what do you think god is? 

if people can't keep religion out of it, then that's their shortfall. 

So the thread should have consisted of 15-20 people's concept of God and done?

Why is discourse so frowned upon by some?

it's not. but when that discourse careens into bashing entire groups of people, that is frowned upon. especially when that was mentioned in the first two posts. 

It's just that this thread is going along just fine - I don't understand the apparent need for an intervention into something that doesn't need it.

I also don't think that a conversation about the concept of God can adequately happen without discussing religion. It's impossible IMO.

as to your first statement: the thread was devolving. i was not the only one in thinking so. it was not an intervention. it a comment on the path of the thread. whether you think it was necessary is irrelevant. 

your second statement is false. many people believe in god and don't subscribe to nor participate in any organized religion. it's actually quite common, whether you believe it or not. it's called spirituality. 

religion being defined as the worship of god does make the opposite true. 

carry on as you wish. i commented on the state of the thread as i saw it at the time and i stand by it. 

To your comment about what I think being irrelevant: Right back at ya buddy. We're all just stating our opinions here, and one's isn't more or less relevant that the other's.

Secondly, no, my second statement isn't false. You're just misinterpreting it. I didn't say that everyone has to be religious to believe in God. I said that a conversation about the concept of God can't adequately take place without religion coming up. Those are two very different things. Sorry your thread isn't following your exact personal expectations, but that isn't how discussion forums work.

I agree with your first statement. many of your posts gave the impression you don't. 

no, I didn't misinterpret it at all. I think a discussion about what people think of god as a concept CAN take place without discussing religion. that's a limited box that people put the concept in. I was trying to get people to think outside of it. 

I don't give a shit which way the thread takes a course. threads meander, move, evolve, change, etc. I fully expected people wouldn't be able to stick to the idea I was presenting, which is why I mentioned it in the second post. I was commenting how people were treating believers in the thread, which, sadly, is always to be expected in threads like these. I have as much problem with believes talking down to non-believers as I do the other way around. 

I have my own issues with religion. But I'm not going to sit here on my high horse and talk about how stupid and crazy people are. 

Please explain how any of my posts here give an impression of being something other than my opinion, specifically. I really really want to know how my talking about my thoughts about God and religion can give an impression of anything other than me giving my opinion. What else would it be? If you happen to think that it is simply my confident tone or something, then sorry, that is just plain unfair. Having confidence in my own opinion is a positive, not a negative. I'm getting pretty sick of having this debate with you. I feel like we've already had this conversation.

so don't. 

back to the thread. 

FoxyRedLa

I'm going to stick my nose in PJS to comment I read his post as he was suggesting he doesn't agree with you when you state no one's opinions are more relevant.

Edit - more or less relevant. 

brianlux

Back to subject. 

The belief in God or a god or gods is universal in human cultures.  Every civilization/culture in every era has had some kind of god belief  (and atheists, sorry to say,  get ignored at best, burned to the stake or tortured at worst).  Sometimes there are similarities in these beliefs, sometimes big differences and I find them interesting to study, but at this point in my life, none are anything I could  honestly subscribe to or follow. Some of the Native American spiritual beliefs (and they vary, it's not like all tribes believed the exact same thing and some vary widely) are the most compelling to me because they are rooted in nature (animals, rocks, rivers and oceans, sun, moon, stars, everything) and are narrated as myths.  Their more metaphorical nature gives them a greater sensibility for me.

I might have mentioned this before, but a great book that focuses on nature in religions, particularly Native American beliefs, is  Tom Hayden's The Lost Gospel of the Earth.

PJ_Soul

FoxyRedLa said:

I'm going to stick my nose in PJS to comment I read his post as he was suggesting he doesn't agree with you when you state no one's opinions are more relevant.

Edit - more or less relevant. 

He specifically said that he did agree with that part.

FoxyRedLa

brianlux said:

Back to subject. 

The belief in God or a god or gods is universal in human cultures.  Every civilization/culture in every era has had some kind of god belief  (and atheists, sorry to say,  get ignored at best, burned to the stake or tortured at worst).  Sometimes there are similarities in these beliefs, sometimes big differences and I find them interesting to study, but at this point in my life, none are anything I could  honestly subscribe to or follow. Some of the Native American spiritual beliefs (and they vary, it's not like all tribes believed the exact same thing and some vary widely) are the most compelling to me because they are rooted in nature (animals, rocks, rivers and oceans, sun, moon, stars, everything) and are narrated as myths.  Their more metaphorical nature gives them a greater sensibility for me.

I might have mentioned this before, but a great book that focuses on nature in religions, particularly Native American beliefs, is  Tom Hayden's The Lost Gospel of the Earth.

I like this post. 

FoxyRedLa

PJ_Soul said:

FoxyRedLa said:

I'm going to stick my nose in PJS to comment I read his post as he was suggesting he doesn't agree with you when you state no one's opinions are more relevant.

Edit - more or less relevant. 

He specifically said that he did agree with that part.

yes I agree.

Then he stated he's not so sure you do.

PJfanwillneverleave1

brianlux said:

Back to subject. 

The belief in God or a god or gods is universal in human cultures.  

I disagree.  For as long as I can remember and as since I've been human I don't recall believing in a god.  On the other hand I can remember the day I knew the easter bunny, santa and the tooth fairy were false.

rgambs

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

brianlux said:

Back to subject. 

The belief in God or a god or gods is universal in human cultures.  

I disagree.  For as long as I can remember and as since I've been human I don't recall believing in a god.  On the other hand I can remember the day I knew the easter bunny, santa and the tooth fairy were false.

But you grew up in a culture in which a large percentage of the population does believe.

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^
I'm not sure.  At the time it was just growing up.  It wasn't until later I realized that some people think that not believing in a god is as unfathomable as believing in one.

PJ_Soul

FoxyRedLa said:

PJ_Soul said:

FoxyRedLa said:

I'm going to stick my nose in PJS to comment I read his post as he was suggesting he doesn't agree with you when you state no one's opinions are more relevant.

Edit - more or less relevant. 

He specifically said that he did agree with that part.

yes I agree.

Then he stated he's not so sure you do.

Right. And I'm defending myself. HFD thinks that I state my opinions as facts (which would necessarily mean I think they are more relevant). That is not the case, and I'm arguing that it's bullshit to accuse me of that. I was looking for any real example where my posts aren't just my opinions, but stated as fact instead. I maintain that he can't.
Let's be clear though, that was all said in a particular context - I took it as meaning that we all have equal footing as people posting in the thread, i.e. one poster isn't more relevant than the other. Not all opinions are equal and let's not pretend they are. Some opinions are really stupid and make no sense and others make much more sense and are based on reality and logic. I don't think HFD's argument was that all opinions are equal. I hope not, anyway, because he'd be lying.  HFD, if that is actually what you meant... hahaha, I call bullshit. But I'm pretty sure you know that some opinions are in fact more valid than others, for obvious reasons.

brianlux

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

brianlux said:

Back to subject. 

The belief in God or a god or gods is universal in human cultures.  

I disagree.  For as long as I can remember and as since I've been human I don't recall believing in a god.  On the other hand I can remember the day I knew the easter bunny, santa and the tooth fairy were false.

I said, "The belief in God or a god or gods is universal in human cultures. "

I didn't know you were a culture, be it a collective manifestation on human intellectual achievements and arts or a cultivation of bacteria in an artificial medium.  Either way, fascinating!

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^
My humble apologies for misinterpreting your post.  I am ashamed of myself for being off by two words in bold that was making your point.  I apologize.

rgambs

The belief in supernatural is pretty universal, it's a weird thing for sure, I consider it a quirk, a byproduct of our rapid intellectual evolution.

PJ_Soul

rgambs said:

The belief in supernatural is pretty universal, it's a weird thing for sure, I consider it a quirk, a byproduct of our rapid intellectual evolution.

I personally think it's just the default human reaction to not understanding things that impact them. Don't know how it really works? Make something up to explain it. And when you're talking about the natural world, the "supernatural" is the only way for those stories to go.