The Concept of God

RYME

oftenreading said:

RYME said:

I'll try one more time.  You don't recall any of this in Genesis.  It's the first & second chapter.  It's all there.  But there are certain words there that need to be translated to Hebrew so you can fully understand what it's saying.
This man, "the man", which in the Hebrew is "eth-ha'adham",
(The ruddy-complexioned, liable to blush red in the face, man), was formed by God for a spacific purpose.  God did not have a man to till the ground, in other words, a farmer.
He already had men which He created to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, (these are the different races) and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
This "man, Adam", He placed in a special garden.  He formed this man.  He created the males and the females, and the races on the sixth day, and then rested on the seventh day.  He did not form "the man , Adam, until after He rested.

Just so I'm clear - you say "translated to Hebrew". Are you sure you mean this? Because the original texts were not written in English, to be translated to Hebrew; they were written in Hebrew and Aramaic (OT) and Greek (NT), going through many iterations before being translated to English.

If you're going to claim scholarship here, please be accurate.

Please, I'm not a Harvard graduate I drive a semi truck, & I own a few horses so cut me some slack lol, no I appreciate you making sure I get it right..So hopefully I can maintain some sort of credibility. 
I probably stated it wrong as I was starting to dose off last night.  Why I loose sleep over this I don't know.
There are some words in the KJB that were simply translated wrong from Hebrew to English, and so on.  And in some cases, in order to accurately understand what it's saying, I use a Strong's exhaustive Concordance (and my grandma's study bible which had a lot of these corrections  in it on sticky notes already.)  I also look up words when I'm curious.
where you can go and see the word in English next to the Hebrew word Greek or Aramaic and see what it meant which in some cases makes a world of difference.
For instance Genesis chapter 1 verse 1 God created the heavens and the Earth.
Verse 2 and the world (was) void and without form.  That word (was) is wrong, and it needs to be corrected for the subject to be correct.  It should have said (became) void and without form He didn't create the world​ void.  But thanks for keeping me on my toes I appreciate that really.
  

rgambs

RYME said:

rgambs said:

RYME said:

PJ_Soul said:

So Adam and Eve's kids all had sex with each other. Incest is best!.

No that was the point of my last post.
The races are 6th day creation.  God rested on the 7th day.   Adam & Eve were during the 8th day.  Again these "days" aren't 24 hour periods.
There were lots of people around by the time Adom & Eve arrived.  Cane eventually slew Abel and went to the Land of Nod which had already been populated.
At the end of the 6th day
Genesis 1 vs 31
And God saw everything that he had made and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.  That word very is very significant.  He's talking about the races.  He created the different races because He wanted it that way.  And He called it very good.  Now,
Genesis chapter 2 vs 4
These are the generations of the heavens and the Earth when they were created in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.  (You can't have Generations without people around)
5 and every plant of the field before it was in the earth and every herb of the field before it grew; the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the Earth and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 but there went up a mist from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 and the Lord God formed man (Adam) (to till and farm the ground) of the Dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life; and the man became a living soul.
(Adam) pronounced (Eth ha adom)
Took him to the Garden of Eden and it goes on from there.

RYME said:

PJ_Soul said:

So Adam and Eve's kids all had sex with each other. Incest is best!.

No that was the point of my last post.
The races are 6th day creation.  God rested on the 7th day.   Adam & Eve were during the 8th day.  Again these "days" aren't 24 hour periods.
There were lots of people around by the time Adom & Eve arrived.  Cane eventually slew Abel and went to the Land of Nod which had already been populated.
At the end of the 6th day
Genesis 1 vs 31
And God saw everything that he had made and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.  That word very is very significant.  He's talking about the races.  He created the different races because He wanted it that way.  And He called it very good.  Now,
Genesis chapter 2 vs 4
These are the generations of the heavens and the Earth when they were created in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.  (You can't have Generations without people around)
5 and every plant of the field before it was in the earth and every herb of the field before it grew; the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the Earth and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 but there went up a mist from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 and the Lord God formed man (Adam) (to till and farm the ground) of the Dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life; and the man became a living soul.
(Adam) pronounced (Eth ha adom)
Took him to the Garden of Eden and it goes on from there.

Generations, in this case, is obviously a synonym to "creations".

The case that the "days" aren't 24 hour periods is incredibly flimsy, and it's taking quite a bit of liberty with interpreting the meaning.  The Bible is specific about evenings and mornings, why would it specify "days" if it didn't mean days?

Flimsy?
GOD prepares the earth
And God said, Let there be light:" and there was light.
First Day - Darkness and Light.  Night and Day
Second Day - Waters.  Division between them.
Third Day - Dry land.  Fruit from it.
Fourth Day - The Sun, moon and stars.
Fifth Day - Waters - Life from the waters, fowl and cattle and every creeping critter.
Sixth Day - Mankind:  all races.
That can't be done in 144 hours.

No, it can't.
So why did the Bible claim that it was?

Also, how was there night and day and fruit from the land without the Sun?  
A rational mind has to accept that it is just a creation myth just like every other creation myth.
It's a fun campfire story that inspires people to think of things larger than themselves.  Nothing more.

ponytd

 

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

So Adam and Eve's kids all had sex with each other. Incest is best!.

It's not worth it PJ_Soul.  No longer must a platform be given to flat-earthers, 2000yr old earth believers, god believers etc.  It is time for them to provide the truth.  Not us.  I am w/ you 100% on your thoughts about god and religion. (whether you like it or not I'm not sure)

I like it just fine PJfan. And I agree, the burden of proof is absolutely on them... I just don't know how to convince them of that. I want to, because I would like to see them actually try. Like try for real, lol. Quoting the Bible obviously doesn't cut it. And I am very secure in my Atheism, so I don't expect believers actually trying to find evidence to produce any proof of the existence of God obviously ... but I think it would be extremely interesting to see what they came up with in the effort!

We can't prove that he exists, any more than you can prove he doesn't. The only proof I have is that the Bible tells me he exists. Is that 100% concrete evidence that he does? Nope. It was a book written by man. But I choose to believe it. Does that make me a lesser person for believing in God? If it does, so be it.  I don't believe out of fear, or because it's easy. It's not easy. Hell, right now you're probably thinking "this guy's an idiot for believing in some invisible "magic" man in the clouds". That's fine if you're thinking that too. It's not going to hurt me or make me not believe in God.

On the subject though, there's a good article I read a few years ago from Ethan Siegel about questions he hears from creationists/people who believe in God about proving or disproving things
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/22-messages-of-hope-and-science-for-creationists-8712e42fbb0d

Gern Blansten

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/number.html

Here's a good list of contradictions in the bible.

brianlux

I find it a bit strange that creationists take the word of one book regarding how life came to be on earth when there are literally thousands of others from a scientific viewpoint that explain how it evolved.  The weight of evidence supporting evolution rather than creation is astounding. How does one ignore that?  Once a person understands that, understands something as basic as evolution, it seems to me it would follow that, other than the parts that are verified by other accounts of history, everything else the Bible says would come into question.  A little logic goes a long way.

And this:  Religion tells people it is wrong to question the Bible.  If there is a God, and that God is benevolent, why would that God punish people for using the intellect they were given to question things, even the Bible which was written by other people?  That makes no sense.  That kind of God would be absurd.

Gern Blansten

brianlux said:

I find it a bit strange that creationists take the word of one book regarding how life came to be on earth when there are literally thousands of others from a scientific viewpoint that explain how it evolved.  The weight of evidence supporting evolution rather than creation is astounding. How does one ignore that?  Once a person understands that, understands something as basic as evolution, it seems to me it would follow that, other than the parts that are verified by other accounts of history, everything else the Bible says would come into question.  A little logic goes a long way.

And this:  Religion tells people it is wrong to question the Bible.  If there is a God, and that God is benevolent, why would that God punish people for using the intellect they were given to question things, even the Bible which was written by other people?  That makes no sense.  That kind of God would be absurd.

yeah I don't get it...in a few hundred years I would think most "religions" will be history

PJ_Soul

ponytd said:

 

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

So Adam and Eve's kids all had sex with each other. Incest is best!.

It's not worth it PJ_Soul.  No longer must a platform be given to flat-earthers, 2000yr old earth believers, god believers etc.  It is time for them to provide the truth.  Not us.  I am w/ you 100% on your thoughts about god and religion. (whether you like it or not I'm not sure)

I like it just fine PJfan. And I agree, the burden of proof is absolutely on them... I just don't know how to convince them of that. I want to, because I would like to see them actually try. Like try for real, lol. Quoting the Bible obviously doesn't cut it. And I am very secure in my Atheism, so I don't expect believers actually trying to find evidence to produce any proof of the existence of God obviously ... but I think it would be extremely interesting to see what they came up with in the effort!

We can't prove that he exists, any more than you can prove he doesn't. The only proof I have is that the Bible tells me he exists. Is that 100% concrete evidence that he does? Nope. It was a book written by man. But I choose to believe it. Does that make me a lesser person for believing in God? If it does, so be it.  I don't believe out of fear, or because it's easy. It's not easy. Hell, right now you're probably thinking "this guy's an idiot for believing in some invisible "magic" man in the clouds". That's fine if you're thinking that too. It's not going to hurt me or make me not believe in God.

On the subject though, there's a good article I read a few years ago from Ethan Siegel about questions he hears from creationists/people who believe in God about proving or disproving things
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/22-messages-of-hope-and-science-for-creationists-8712e42fbb0d

I know you can't prove he exists. That's what I said. Suggesting the Bible is proof in any way, shape, or form is nonsensical. It's like me saying I can prove vampires exist or believe vampires exist because of Stephen King's Salem's Lot.
For the record, I do not think for a second that I'm going to convince religious people of anything. Nor does the word "idiot" enter my mind.

Gern Blansten

ponytd said:

 

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

So Adam and Eve's kids all had sex with each other. Incest is best!.

It's not worth it PJ_Soul.  No longer must a platform be given to flat-earthers, 2000yr old earth believers, god believers etc.  It is time for them to provide the truth.  Not us.  I am w/ you 100% on your thoughts about god and religion. (whether you like it or not I'm not sure)

I like it just fine PJfan. And I agree, the burden of proof is absolutely on them... I just don't know how to convince them of that. I want to, because I would like to see them actually try. Like try for real, lol. Quoting the Bible obviously doesn't cut it. And I am very secure in my Atheism, so I don't expect believers actually trying to find evidence to produce any proof of the existence of God obviously ... but I think it would be extremely interesting to see what they came up with in the effort!

We can't prove that he exists, any more than you can prove he doesn't. The only proof I have is that the Bible tells me he exists. Is that 100% concrete evidence that he does? Nope. It was a book written by man. But I choose to believe it. Does that make me a lesser person for believing in God? If it does, so be it.  I don't believe out of fear, or because it's easy. It's not easy. Hell, right now you're probably thinking "this guy's an idiot for believing in some invisible "magic" man in the clouds". That's fine if you're thinking that too. It's not going to hurt me or make me not believe in God.

On the subject though, there's a good article I read a few years ago from Ethan Siegel about questions he hears from creationists/people who believe in God about proving or disproving things
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/22-messages-of-hope-and-science-for-creationists-8712e42fbb0d

The bible proves that "he" exists and science proves that it doesn't.

How do you reconcile the story of Mithra which predates Christ to believing in Christ?  Why don't you believe in Mithra?

Annafalk

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^

Well since I'm in jail one of the conditions are that a posters signature is not shown when posting. Never understood that until now.
It states "Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming" - Albert Einstein

Gern Blansten

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

We're animals.  Animals die.  It's sad but it's true.

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^
We definitely were not created to worship a god.

Annafalk

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

^^^
We definitely were not created to worship a god.

Lol, I think God let us know about him so we would better find comfort in life.

Annafalk

Gern Blansten said:

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

We're animals.  Animals die.  It's sad but it's true.

I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.

jeffbr

Annafalk said:

Gern Blansten said:

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

We're animals.  Animals die.  It's sad but it's true.

I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.

I get agitated with the number of people at Costco on a Saturday. I can't imagine a heaven occupied by every single person that ever lived as well as every single animal of every type that has ever lived. Just trying to comprehend what that must be like is enough to make me take comfort in my belief that when we're dead we're dead. Living forever with every other living thing with no end and no escape seems a little nightmarish to me. That is way more scary and overwhelming than going to sleep forever.

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^
Ha, ha.  If there is a hell that would be it.  Funny shit right up there folks.

PJ_Soul

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

I don't find going back to what I was before I was born scary at all. How can oblivion be scary when that means you won't know the difference anyhow? Or, of course, maybe there is an afterlife. I'm not sure why everyone assumes all Atheists absolutely don't believe in any possibility of an afterlife. God is not necessary to that concept at all, and I find it very odd that so many people seem to assume that the two must go hand in hand. I don't think there is one, but you never know. Energy never dies, so if consciousness is attached to energy, then perhaps we do go on somehow. Either way, I'm not scared because I'll either just be gone and won't know the difference, or it will be very interesting to find out what science has in store for us after death. I'm really just curious about what happens after death... although my curiosity won't be satisfied if I'm just gone into nothing, lol. Oh well. IMO, the only really terrifying thing about death would be the idea of hell or something, which is a construct of religion. And aren't religious people terrified of that?? If they believe in that stuff, aren't they worried that they fucked it up, and will suffer for eternity because they chose the wrong belief system?

As for being created for a special purpose... no offense, but I find that concept arrogant in the extreme. One of the reasons I don't believe in God is precisely because I think it's outrageous for people to think we are more special than any other living creature on Earth. But yes, I find every single scientific process and the existence of the universe extremely incredible! What an amazing thing! I don't, however, think of the existence of human beings any more incredible than any other animal. I consider myself lucky to have been born as human because I really appreciate my opposable thumbs and language skills and whatnot. It's better to be human than the other highly intelligent animals on Earth, who don't have the thumbs or can't live on land. And no, it's not sad to think that life is "only a coincidence". I find the fact that life exists the opposite of sad. It's fantastic! How wonderful that the universe exists to allow the smallest things in existence to work together and form bigger and more complex structures, that lead to more complex structures, and that they can evolve and grow and fit into nature all together, joined through undying energy. It's fantastic. Please don't mistake Atheism for a lack of wonder. That isn't the case at all.

It's not that hard to imagine not existing... Just think about how you felt before you were born. It's like that.

Annafalk

jeffbr said:

Annafalk said:

Gern Blansten said:

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

We're animals.  Animals die.  It's sad but it's true.

I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.

I get agitated with the number of people at Costco on a Saturday. I can't imagine a heaven occupied by every single person that ever lived as well as every single animal of every type that has ever lived. Just trying to comprehend what that must be like is enough to make me take comfort in my belief that when we're dead we're dead. Living forever with every other living thing with no end and no escape seems a little nightmarish to me. That is way more scary and overwhelming than going to sleep forever.

So you can imagine how it would be to not exist? Why would heaven be crowded like that Costco place, I think some things are hard for us to understand but I don't think it's crowded.

PJ_Soul

If someone believes in God, how could it possibly be a stretch to believe that Heaven is infinite in size??

Annafalk

PJ_Soul said:

If someone believes in God, how could it possibly be a stretch to believe that Heaven is infinite in size??

But why would it be? 

PJ_Soul

Annafalk said:

PJ_Soul said:

If someone believes in God, how could it possibly be a stretch to believe that Heaven is infinite in size??

But why would it be? 

Why wouldn't it be? Makes more sense than it being crowded, lol.

jeffbr

Annafalk said:

jeffbr said:

Annafalk said:

Gern Blansten said:

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

We're animals.  Animals die.  It's sad but it's true.

I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.

I get agitated with the number of people at Costco on a Saturday. I can't imagine a heaven occupied by every single person that ever lived as well as every single animal of every type that has ever lived. Just trying to comprehend what that must be like is enough to make me take comfort in my belief that when we're dead we're dead. Living forever with every other living thing with no end and no escape seems a little nightmarish to me. That is way more scary and overwhelming than going to sleep forever.

So you can imagine how it would be to not exist? Why would heaven be crowded like that Costco place, I think some things are hard for us to understand but I don't think it's crowded.

Yes, I can imagine how it would be to not exist after I die. I imagine I'll feel exactly the same way I felt before I was conceived/born. 

ponytd

PJ_Soul said:

ponytd said:

 

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

So Adam and Eve's kids all had sex with each other. Incest is best!.

It's not worth it PJ_Soul.  No longer must a platform be given to flat-earthers, 2000yr old earth believers, god believers etc.  It is time for them to provide the truth.  Not us.  I am w/ you 100% on your thoughts about god and religion. (whether you like it or not I'm not sure)

I like it just fine PJfan. And I agree, the burden of proof is absolutely on them... I just don't know how to convince them of that. I want to, because I would like to see them actually try. Like try for real, lol. Quoting the Bible obviously doesn't cut it. And I am very secure in my Atheism, so I don't expect believers actually trying to find evidence to produce any proof of the existence of God obviously ... but I think it would be extremely interesting to see what they came up with in the effort!

We can't prove that he exists, any more than you can prove he doesn't. The only proof I have is that the Bible tells me he exists. Is that 100% concrete evidence that he does? Nope. It was a book written by man. But I choose to believe it. Does that make me a lesser person for believing in God? If it does, so be it.  I don't believe out of fear, or because it's easy. It's not easy. Hell, right now you're probably thinking "this guy's an idiot for believing in some invisible "magic" man in the clouds". That's fine if you're thinking that too. It's not going to hurt me or make me not believe in God.

On the subject though, there's a good article I read a few years ago from Ethan Siegel about questions he hears from creationists/people who believe in God about proving or disproving things
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/22-messages-of-hope-and-science-for-creationists-8712e42fbb0d

I know you can't prove he exists. That's what I said. Suggesting the Bible is proof in any way, shape, or form is nonsensical. It's like me saying I can prove vampires exist or believe vampires exist because of Stephen King's Salem's Lot.
For the record, I do not think for a second that I'm going to convince religious people of anything. Nor does the word "idiot" enter my mind.

I get that and agree, it does seem nonsensical. That's a valid analogy. I guess I meant when I grew up I went to church and was told about God and my families belief was from the Bible. Over time, I've come to my own conclusions. I can't prove he exists, but I believe he does, because I believe there has to be a higher power. There has to be a creator of all the universe and everything in it. I'm not saying that's the only reason i believe in him either. From your point of view, I completely see how that comes across though, just like your analogy. I'm not the best at articulating my beliefs and thoughts into words, so you'll have to forgive me, but to Christians, it's kind of the opposite. How can you not believe? I think that's where a lot frustration between believers and non-believers lie. Why can't the other side see logic? In a lot of believers minds, this is logical. In your eyes, it's illogical. And to be honest, a lot of "Christians" are too afraid to have their faith questioned. They're afraid of science. I'm all for science. I think we should question everything. Why can't we question if there is or isn't a God. For me personally, I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary. But what if one day, there is scientific evidence and 100% definitive proof that there isn't a God? Well, if that day ever comes, I may have to come to grips with it.

And as for the idiot comment. I'm glad you weren't thinking that lol, but that was more of a example of thought, not me saying you were actually thinking that. Sorry if it came off that way

ponytd

Gern Blansten said:

ponytd said:

 

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

So Adam and Eve's kids all had sex with each other. Incest is best!.

It's not worth it PJ_Soul.  No longer must a platform be given to flat-earthers, 2000yr old earth believers, god believers etc.  It is time for them to provide the truth.  Not us.  I am w/ you 100% on your thoughts about god and religion. (whether you like it or not I'm not sure)

I like it just fine PJfan. And I agree, the burden of proof is absolutely on them... I just don't know how to convince them of that. I want to, because I would like to see them actually try. Like try for real, lol. Quoting the Bible obviously doesn't cut it. And I am very secure in my Atheism, so I don't expect believers actually trying to find evidence to produce any proof of the existence of God obviously ... but I think it would be extremely interesting to see what they came up with in the effort!

We can't prove that he exists, any more than you can prove he doesn't. The only proof I have is that the Bible tells me he exists. Is that 100% concrete evidence that he does? Nope. It was a book written by man. But I choose to believe it. Does that make me a lesser person for believing in God? If it does, so be it.  I don't believe out of fear, or because it's easy. It's not easy. Hell, right now you're probably thinking "this guy's an idiot for believing in some invisible "magic" man in the clouds". That's fine if you're thinking that too. It's not going to hurt me or make me not believe in God.

On the subject though, there's a good article I read a few years ago from Ethan Siegel about questions he hears from creationists/people who believe in God about proving or disproving things
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/22-messages-of-hope-and-science-for-creationists-8712e42fbb0d

The bible proves that "he" exists and science proves that it doesn't.

How do you reconcile the story of Mithra which predates Christ to believing in Christ?  Why don't you believe in Mithra?

No, science doesn't disprove he exists any more than it proves he does exist. Science gives us explanations for things, but it doesn't disprove or prove his existence at all.

I don't know the story of Mithra. I'll have to look that up

Annafalk

jeffbr said:

Annafalk said:

jeffbr said:

Annafalk said:

Gern Blansten said:

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

We're animals.  Animals die.  It's sad but it's true.

I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.

I get agitated with the number of people at Costco on a Saturday. I can't imagine a heaven occupied by every single person that ever lived as well as every single animal of every type that has ever lived. Just trying to comprehend what that must be like is enough to make me take comfort in my belief that when we're dead we're dead. Living forever with every other living thing with no end and no escape seems a little nightmarish to me. That is way more scary and overwhelming than going to sleep forever.

So you can imagine how it would be to not exist? Why would heaven be crowded like that Costco place, I think some things are hard for us to understand but I don't think it's crowded.

Yes, I can imagine how it would be to not exist after I die. I imagine I'll feel exactly the same way I felt before I was conceived/born. 

Ok, so you are saying there was a "you" before you were born?

jeffbr

Annafalk said:

jeffbr said:

Annafalk said:

jeffbr said:

Annafalk said:

Gern Blansten said:

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

We're animals.  Animals die.  It's sad but it's true.

I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.

I get agitated with the number of people at Costco on a Saturday. I can't imagine a heaven occupied by every single person that ever lived as well as every single animal of every type that has ever lived. Just trying to comprehend what that must be like is enough to make me take comfort in my belief that when we're dead we're dead. Living forever with every other living thing with no end and no escape seems a little nightmarish to me. That is way more scary and overwhelming than going to sleep forever.

So you can imagine how it would be to not exist? Why would heaven be crowded like that Costco place, I think some things are hard for us to understand but I don't think it's crowded.

Yes, I can imagine how it would be to not exist after I die. I imagine I'll feel exactly the same way I felt before I was conceived/born. 

Ok, so you are saying there was a "you" before you were born?

Ha, not saying that at all. I'm just trying to convey why I'm not bothered about the possibility that when the lights go out they stay out. If there isn't a pre-life, or after-life, then one can't feel anything positive or negative before or after. So the fact that I have no recollection of anything preceding my birth, and am perfectly comfortable with that, then I guess I don't really understand why I should fear that same state of non-cognition after I die. 

ponytd

PJ_Soul said:

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

I don't find going back to what I was before I was born scary at all. How can oblivion be scary when that means you won't know the difference anyhow? Or, of course, maybe there is an afterlife. I'm not sure why everyone assumes all Atheists absolutely don't believe in any possibility of an afterlife. God is not necessary to that concept at all, and I find it very odd that so many people seem to assume that the two must go hand in hand. I don't think there is one, but you never know. Energy never dies, so if consciousness is attached to energy, then perhaps we do go on somehow. Either way, I'm not scared because I'll either just be gone and won't know the difference, or it will be very interesting to find out what science has in store for us after death. I'm really just curious about what happens after death... although my curiosity won't be satisfied if I'm just gone into nothing, lol. Oh well. IMO, the only really terrifying thing about death would be the idea of hell or something, which is a construct of religion. And aren't religious people terrified of that?? If they believe in that stuff, aren't they worried that they fucked it up, and will suffer for eternity because they chose the wrong belief system?

As for being created for a special purpose... no offense, but I find that concept arrogant in the extreme. One of the reasons I don't believe in God is precisely because I think it's outrageous for people to think we are more special than any other living creature on Earth. But yes, I find every single scientific process and the existence of the universe extremely incredible! What an amazing thing! I don't, however, think of the existence of human beings any more incredible than any other animal. I consider myself lucky to have been born as human because I really appreciate my opposable thumbs and language skills and whatnot. It's better to be human than the other highly intelligent animals on Earth, who don't have the thumbs or can't live on land. And no, it's not sad to think that life is "only a coincidence". I find the fact that life exists the opposite of sad. It's fantastic! How wonderful that the universe exists to allow the smallest things in existence to work together and form bigger and more complex structures, that lead to more complex structures, and that they can evolve and grow and fit into nature all together, joined through undying energy. It's fantastic. Please don't mistake Atheism for a lack of wonder. That isn't the case at all.

It's not that hard to imagine not existing... Just think about how you felt before you were born. It's like that.

I know I have made the correlation before that Atheists don't believe in the possibility of an afterlife. Glad to see I'm wrong. However, most of the atheists I've known didn't believe in anything really, so I guess I was just uninformed.

As far as the last part of that 1st paragraph. For a lot of religious people, I don't think they're scared of going to hell for choosing the wrong religion, because they believe they are right. Personally, I think that is just absurd. So God will only let Baptists into Heaven and not Jews or Methodists or Pentacostals? Or only Jews and nobody else. Or only Muslims? To me that's laughable. I believe if you live a good life, helping others, respecting others, and loving your family, friends and neighbors and strive to be the best person you can be, you'll go to Heaven. And who's to say God won't let you in? I know some people who would say you don't have a chance, but contrary to their belief, it's not their call. But you seem logical and pretty nice. If you live a good life and help others and are a good person, who's to say that God won't let you in too.

I have a question though about your 2nd paragraph? I'm in agreement with pretty much all of it. It is an amazing universe that we live in and hopefully in our lifetime, we can go out and explore new worlds instead of just with a satellite. But aren't we more special than any other animal? Not to say we're more deserving than them, but like you said, we have opposable thumbs and the mental capacity. Humans are the ones that came up with the printing press, the wheel, the combustible engine. Maybe special isn't the right word, but instead, more evolved I guess. And I hope we continue to grow as a species and evolve and question everything around us. If we don't question, we can't better understand.

ponytd

brianlux said:

I find it a bit strange that creationists take the word of one book regarding how life came to be on earth when there are literally thousands of others from a scientific viewpoint that explain how it evolved.  The weight of evidence supporting evolution rather than creation is astounding. How does one ignore that?  Once a person understands that, understands something as basic as evolution, it seems to me it would follow that, other than the parts that are verified by other accounts of history, everything else the Bible says would come into question.  A little logic goes a long way.

And this:  Religion tells people it is wrong to question the Bible.  If there is a God, and that God is benevolent, why would that God punish people for using the intellect they were given to question things, even the Bible which was written by other people?  That makes no sense.  That kind of God would be absurd.

Evolution and creation are two different things. Evolution is scientific fact. But evolution doesn't explain HOW we were created. Only the evolution process.

Agreed. I don't think God would punish us for using our brains and questioning. The people that believe that aren't strong enough in their faith and only believe out of fear and are only in it for the wrong reasons. Most likely to be condescending to others

Annafalk

jeffbr said:

Annafalk said:

jeffbr said:

Annafalk said:

jeffbr said:

Annafalk said:

Gern Blansten said:

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

We're animals.  Animals die.  It's sad but it's true.

I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.

I get agitated with the number of people at Costco on a Saturday. I can't imagine a heaven occupied by every single person that ever lived as well as every single animal of every type that has ever lived. Just trying to comprehend what that must be like is enough to make me take comfort in my belief that when we're dead we're dead. Living forever with every other living thing with no end and no escape seems a little nightmarish to me. That is way more scary and overwhelming than going to sleep forever.

So you can imagine how it would be to not exist? Why would heaven be crowded like that Costco place, I think some things are hard for us to understand but I don't think it's crowded.

Yes, I can imagine how it would be to not exist after I die. I imagine I'll feel exactly the same way I felt before I was conceived/born. 

Ok, so you are saying there was a "you" before you were born?

Ha, not saying that at all. I'm just trying to convey why I'm not bothered about the possibility that when the lights go out they stay out. If there isn't a pre-life, or after-life, then one can't feel anything positive or negative before or after. So the fact that I have no recollection of anything preceding my birth, and am perfectly comfortable with that, then I guess I don't really understand why I should fear that same state of non-cognition after I die. 

I understand, and I don't think one should fear death either, sorry for being maybe a bit rude.

PJ_Soul

ponytd said:

PJ_Soul said:

Annafalk said:

If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose.
And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here !
If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop?
Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.

Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.

I don't find going back to what I was before I was born scary at all. How can oblivion be scary when that means you won't know the difference anyhow? Or, of course, maybe there is an afterlife. I'm not sure why everyone assumes all Atheists absolutely don't believe in any possibility of an afterlife. God is not necessary to that concept at all, and I find it very odd that so many people seem to assume that the two must go hand in hand. I don't think there is one, but you never know. Energy never dies, so if consciousness is attached to energy, then perhaps we do go on somehow. Either way, I'm not scared because I'll either just be gone and won't know the difference, or it will be very interesting to find out what science has in store for us after death. I'm really just curious about what happens after death... although my curiosity won't be satisfied if I'm just gone into nothing, lol. Oh well. IMO, the only really terrifying thing about death would be the idea of hell or something, which is a construct of religion. And aren't religious people terrified of that?? If they believe in that stuff, aren't they worried that they fucked it up, and will suffer for eternity because they chose the wrong belief system?

As for being created for a special purpose... no offense, but I find that concept arrogant in the extreme. One of the reasons I don't believe in God is precisely because I think it's outrageous for people to think we are more special than any other living creature on Earth. But yes, I find every single scientific process and the existence of the universe extremely incredible! What an amazing thing! I don't, however, think of the existence of human beings any more incredible than any other animal. I consider myself lucky to have been born as human because I really appreciate my opposable thumbs and language skills and whatnot. It's better to be human than the other highly intelligent animals on Earth, who don't have the thumbs or can't live on land. And no, it's not sad to think that life is "only a coincidence". I find the fact that life exists the opposite of sad. It's fantastic! How wonderful that the universe exists to allow the smallest things in existence to work together and form bigger and more complex structures, that lead to more complex structures, and that they can evolve and grow and fit into nature all together, joined through undying energy. It's fantastic. Please don't mistake Atheism for a lack of wonder. That isn't the case at all.

It's not that hard to imagine not existing... Just think about how you felt before you were born. It's like that.

I know I have made the correlation before that Atheists don't believe in the possibility of an afterlife. Glad to see I'm wrong. However, most of the atheists I've known didn't believe in anything really, so I guess I was just uninformed.

As far as the last part of that 1st paragraph. For a lot of religious people, I don't think they're scared of going to hell for choosing the wrong religion, because they believe they are right. Personally, I think that is just absurd. So God will only let Baptists into Heaven and not Jews or Methodists or Pentacostals? Or only Jews and nobody else. Or only Muslims? To me that's laughable. I believe if you live a good life, helping others, respecting others, and loving your family, friends and neighbors and strive to be the best person you can be, you'll go to Heaven. And who's to say God won't let you in? I know some people who would say you don't have a chance, but contrary to their belief, it's not their call. But you seem logical and pretty nice. If you live a good life and help others and are a good person, who's to say that God won't let you in too.

I have a question though about your 2nd paragraph? I'm in agreement with pretty much all of it. It is an amazing universe that we live in and hopefully in our lifetime, we can go out and explore new worlds instead of just with a satellite. But aren't we more special than any other animal? Not to say we're more deserving than them, but like you said, we have opposable thumbs and the mental capacity. Humans are the ones that came up with the printing press, the wheel, the combustible engine. Maybe special isn't the right word, but instead, more evolved I guess. And I hope we continue to grow as a species and evolve and question everything around us. If we don't question, we can't better understand.

Well I actually don't "believe" in an afterlife. I think that the chances of an afterlife seem so remote, and really don't think it's going to happen. However, I don't completely write off the possibility, because there is no specific reason for me to state with absolute certainty that there isn't some kind of scientific process that results in what we would call an afterlife. I seriously doubt it though, haha. Is admitting that I don't completely reject the concept in a scientific sense believing in it? I don't think so. As cool as it would be, I will be absolutely fucking shocked if I am actually still conscious after I die! Pleasantly shocked.

To answer your question, I was more talking about special in the context of religion/God. In that context, humans are necessarily considered to be favoured over other life forms. I.e. the world is first and foremost for us, and we are the main focus as far as God is concerned. I.e. we're made after God's image, God is interested in us above all else, we are the ones subject to God's judgement - we are SPECIAL in religion. We hold a special place in the universe, according to believers. We rule the Earth because we're humans under God, not because we happen to be at the top of the food chain. As for us being more evolved.... I actually don't think we are necessarily the most evolved in terms of our brain function. That is why I brought up the language skills and the thumbs. I think we happened to have the most lucky physiology combined with brain capacity to achieve all the unique things we achieve as humans. But I think that if whales or elephants were able to just move into our bodies, it's entirely likely that they would be the superior beings. So yeah, we're special because of our unique physiological make-up, but I don't think we're special in any kind of big picture kind of way, as religion would have us consider it. As you mentioned, we're just animals that won the evolutionary race. Yes, that is scientifically significant, which I guess you could say is special. I call it lucky. Now, the problem is that I also think that humans are literally parasites. So I'm not sure how special or lucky that is. The planet would for sure be a lot better off without us - we're basically a scourge on the Earth, big picture-wise. We're like evidence of how flawed Nature is.

Thanks for thinking I would go to Heaven! Yes, it's totally nuts that so many people think that they happen to have the right religion to get there while everyone else doesn't. I don't know how they reconcile that in their own heads. It seems like a rather evil concept.